CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

[Cheerful theme music begins] 
 
This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

In this episode, educator, creator, and astrologer Kirah Tabourn talks with Alice Sparkly Kat about their work and their latest book, Postcolonial Astrology. Kirah and Sparkly Kat share insights into ways we can use astrology to challenge our own practices, interrogate our truths, and reshape our institutions to build better frameworks for communities of care. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on May 21st, 2021. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

[Theme music concludes] 
 

Kirah: Hey Ace.  

Sparkly Kat: Hi, how are you today?  

Kirah: I am so good. I'm enjoying Jupiter in Pisces [laughs] weekend so far. How are you?  

Sparkly Kat: I'm pretty good. Yeah, yeah, it's a little bit later over here than it is for you.  

Kirah: Yeah. Well, I am stoked to talk to you today about your book. [Sparkly Kat: Me too.] It's cool. I guess people might not know that we like know each other.  

Sparkly Kat: We do know each other. 

Kirah: Yeah, when I was living in Brooklyn, we met, I don't know. I think the first time we met actually might have been at one of your book launches. 

Sparkly Kat: Oh really. I don't know how we met but, I remember like going to work on that garden and then Grace was like, oh, Kirah lives here and then yeah. 

Kirah: I think the first time we met that I came to one of your -had a book launch, because this is not your first -the first book that you've written, and I came to basically meet you, but I don't think we actually talked at the time because it was a little -everything was happening. But I wanted to ask you to be an Influx, which ended up happening, which is coming back, which is exciting but regardless people should know that Ace and I have no -have known each other for about, I guess like two years now a year and a half or so. Yeah, and yeah, we've hung out a few times. You've come to some dinners and-  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, we've had, we've had dinner. Yeah. We've talked on the phone.  

Kirah: We've talked on the phone, you've been on my podcast twice so, we have some rapport, but anyway, I'm it's cool to be talking to you in this, like, professional context, and about your book because it's truly like it's a -it's a gift to astrology. I think it's something that's been so needed for so long and I don't even think people knew how much it's needed or you know like recognized that need that you have filled with this book and yeah there's so much I want to talk to you about so-  

Sparkly Kat: Thanks for reading it.  

Kirah: Yeah, I mean, thanks for, thanks for writing it. I wanted to start just by asking like why -why you wrote this book like what -yeah what spurred you to write it? Were there any -was there anything in particular? Was it just like something that's been brewing over time like within you? Tell me more about the why behind it. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, well I mean I think a lot of people have a troubled relationship with western astrology and just yeah -myself included like in like, once you like kind of like go like deeper into it, you kind of see it. It's like, it's on the binaries, it's the names of the planets, the Roman names, it's some of the concepts. So, I feel like there's a lot of questions, that just kind of keep coming up around western astrology around like tropical astrology to its climate-based system, so it kind of centers one type of climate over other types of climates and climate. It's something that's changing all the time. And so, like I just I mean I really kind of wanted to like follow that curiosity like the why of western astrology. 

Kirah: Right, yeah. How long did it take you like from the idea to like the -you finally handing in your you know, your first draft?  

Sparkly Kat: Well like it was a year I had a deadline and then but like a lot of the ideas like just kind of like that convoluted relationship with western astrology, like, that's been something I've been like processing for like maybe 5 years too.  

Kirah: Yeah. Yeah. I figured it's yeah, sort of like something that's been accumulating and bubbling up within you for a while that you didn't realize was necessarily a book until you know a couple years in but yeah. Can you speak a little bit more to your thoughts around western astrology and the discomfort you have with certain parts of it. Like, like you mentioned the names of the plant, like the Roman names of the planets the binaries like yeah, I'm curious if you can expand on that a little bit.  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like just kind of like learning. I mean, learning any type of astrology I feel like everyone's just like, well, why does it work? Like that's kind of like a guiding question that like comes up, like over and over and always has different like, questions attached to it. But western astrology, like it's not the first type of astrology that I was introduced to like when I was three, I was introduced to like how to tell time by learning the Chinese zodiac. So, I feel like when like I got into western astrology, it was like it was because I was moving through some really hard like personal things and like I found it to be really useful language for talking about pain but then like yeah, I guess there's like there's the why. Like why is it so useful for talking about pain?  

Kirah: Yeah that's -that's a good question. I mean. Yeah, I -the way I look at it around that like why does it work -more I guess -more because I don't think anyone knows why it works or even like how it works. This is -I think we can more unpack the how than the why? Maybe, maybe not. But like when I contemplate that that h- that how myself, especially when we talk about, there's so many different types of astrology. It’s like how does it -how does all of it work? You know, how does sidereal work and tropical work and I always come back to like perspective [Sparkly Kat: Mmm.] and it's like well, what perspective are you looking at it? Like what -like if it's like a prism, you know, what -what angle are you looking at it from? Yeah, and I wonder if -is that something that has come to you throughout this work like -because what I've what I -when I first started learning astrology some astrologer at some point had said that like, you know, maybe vedic astrology or using a sidereal -oh, no I'll say vedic astrology  works really well for people who are from that region of you know, because of culture and because of, you know, as X Y and Z, so that kind of can explain why both can work. But I'm curious as to your thoughts around that. 

Sparkly Kat: Totally, yeah, I agree. So, I feel like when I got into astrology, like there was like, maybe even a little bit of a guilty feeling like, is this my culture? And yeah, so that kind of like went into it. I like what you said about the prism, because I feel like so much of astrology is a prism. It's like, it's so associative. It's like every symbol, like there's this deep historical context, but then we're not looking at it linearly at all. We're looking at it almost like it's a collage. So then western astrology, like it's not actually western origin but then it's western how it functions its western how it's like remembered and memorialized. 

Kirah: Right, yeah. That's so that's so real because I mean something I like to tell my students or remind my students of all the time which is I think so important to remember is that the type of astrology at least that I'm teaching and that a lot of us use hellenists like hellenistic astrology, or astrology that has roots in hellenistic era through the medieval but especially hellenistic. It's like this was an astrology that was made in a particular period of time where there was particular customs and social norms and it's an astrology of you within a system within a society. It's not necessarily about like you and your psyche. [Sparkly Kat Yeah, right.] It's about how you fit in with the world around you.  

And yeah, I just think throughout time, you know, we're kind of removed from that like root of where like, the people that we don't really know who it was right, who developed hellenistic astrology, like the specific people who developed the specific in terms of the, the roots of it, kind of a mystery. But still, it's like, really, I think important to remember where we are in space and time when we're talking about like those origins and when we talk about like the guest/host relationship in terms of like rulership and planets and other planets signs and stuff like that, it's like that comes from Greek culture, right?  

So, yeah, I guess I the question I'm getting to or what I'm trying to get to is like what…what parts of astro- or I should say, like, western astrology do you see -well I guess in terms of like that coming back to perspective, right? And it's like where are you? What type of astrology are you using and where you coming from, what perspective are you looking at it from? Do you have any thoughts on like, why- yeah I guess like, expanding on that, like, why you think that this particular astrology that we, both of us use a lot of works so much for us and in our clients and -and maybe like would you recommend other types of astrology to certain people?  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, yeah. I feel like it works so well because we have to reckon with the West. Like when we talked about the sun, its father it like we have to reckon with the patriarch. We have to -yeah, we have to reckon with all this stuff. The moon, it's reproduction, we have to reckon with reproductive exploitation all the time. So, like it shows up in our lives. It impacts our lives, the West does so then, like, like western astrology, like we can use it to talk about the West, like that's why I feel like it works so well to talk about pain sometimes. In like -yeah not it's not really great for talking about everything but it's good for some things. 

Kirah: Can you elaborate more on using it to talk about pain and like in what ways can you give an example or what ways do use it to talk about pain?  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, like Jupiter. I mean, institutional wounds. With Mercury, I mean I feel like with Mercury a lot of times like just the idea of like being heard and having a voice can bring out a lot of pain sometimes. Yeah I feel like there's like just all the planets they have something to do with pain especially and then like if I'm like yeah if I'm doing like it may be another form of divination like maybe it's more focused on change, maybe it's more focused on something else but I found like just I mean over the years that like there's something about Western astrology  that is really great at just kind of like putting a spotlight on like pain points. 

Kirah: Yeah, do you feel like writing this book was a way for, was a way to process the reckoning of like using western astrology? 

Sparkly Kat: For sure, yeah, yeah.  

Kirah: I'm like I mean because I think a lot of us sit with that right? Like the type where -yeah just but you're so spot-on with like how it works so well because it -it is a system that was developed by what event- like the people that eventually inspired the people who created the world we live in right now. And yeah, it's like something that you're right, it's just like, we're always having to reckon with the West, no matter if you're here or not here, right? It's like, it affects everything.  

I want to ask you a little bit about, just like the structure of the book. You kind of go into each of the seven traditional planets. We were lucky enough at Fresh Voices to have you come teach a little workshop webinar based on the way you wrote the book but kind of zeroing on the sun and that was phenomenal. So, yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about the structure of the book and sort of like, why you chose to structure it that way?  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I wanted to kind of like take some of the oppositions in astrology which like yeah, you know, this like the luminaries, Saturn, Venus and Mars, Jupiter, and Mercury which they rule opposing signs. So, then they're read in opposition to each other a lot of the time. So, I wanted to kind of take that and then I wanted to look at each of them individually, but then together to like kind of create a dichotomy from the binary.  

And then what ended up happening was that I was focused on the Moon and Saturn and that like everything I was kind of finding about these two planets was about like value. So, I wanted to talk about capital with the luminaries in Saturn. With Venus and Mars what kind of happened was I thought I was going to explore gender but then I found out like whoa like gender is really about war. So then that chapter ended up being about power and then what happened with like Mercury and Jupiter was that I was like oh like you know, Mercury is language and Jupiter's these big institutions. So I thought that it would be about representation at first and then I was like, you know, maybe it's about technology because I wanted there to be a material basis for each of the chapters and then I found out well technology doesn't like really exist like I thought it did but it doesn't like technology really just like covers up labor so then that chapter ended up being about labor and then I ended up rewriting a lot of it too.  

Kirah: Okay. Yeah, because it sounds like you -like the writing process seems like you were set off to- on certain directions and like kind of took turns along the way.  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I am -I'm a little bit confusing in how I write.  

Kirah: No, I don't mean like the way you're writing I just mean the way that you're talking about the writing process. [Sparkly Kat: Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.] No, no, no you write beautifully. [laughs] 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, like I rewrote Venus and Mars too cause like at first like I wanted to write about like queer pleasure, but then yeah but then I realize like hey like I don't really want to define like the positive, I'm like, that's for everyone to kind of live. So, I just wanted to talk about power in like maybe more of like a negative way. 

Kirah: So Saturnian.  

Sparkly Kat: I know. 

[Both laugh] 

Kirah: I love it. I'm the Jupiterian you’re the Saturnian we balance each other out nicely. [Sparkly Kat: Oh, that’s true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.] Cool. Yeah, so I'm curious like a lot -because you write, you've been writing right? This is what the fourth book you've written?  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah. Yeah. I made two books self-published and then we were in that series together. 

Kirah: Oh yeah, okay, that's right. So yeah, you've been writing for a long time. You write tons of blogs, horoscopes, amazing memes, and then you also do client work you work with clients and so I'm curious how much of this -how much of your client work has informed this writing. 

Sparkly Kat: Oh, everything. Yeah. I feel like everything about astrology I learned from doing client work. I mean the technical stuff like from books and stuff, but then like every like the flesh of it is just listening to people talk about how they like, I mean, how they live their experiences.  

Kirah: Do you -so yeah I guess, I guess where my next question is you're -the type of clients you get basically like it sounds like you get a lot of clients who are, you know, who are people who work a lot sounds like, people who are sort of stuck or at least a part of a system that is not working for them in some way, shape, or form. And yeah, I'm just I'm just curious if you could speak maybe a little bit more about your client work and how its informed, not just this I guess not just like the way you the writing in the book, but it sounds like your whole almost like view around a lot of these topics have been shaped in a lot of ways by your client practice. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And I'm also like, very curious I mean about like you like how your client practice has changed over the years too. But at least for me it like I mean like yeah I get a lot of I mean, most of my clients are queer and then we talk about gender like a lot of times when my clients aren't queer we don't talk about gender so much but then like we have to talk about gender when we're both queer sometimes and then so I'm like, hey like you know like you know, let's talk about gender with astrology then like let's really see what's our like -like what's your experience of gender and what are your expectations of gender? I just find it so useful. So, I wanted to like, I mean, I wanted to make something that like, I could use that many people who do astrology like client work could use like, when we talk about the sun, when we talk about the father, like let's talk about the idea of father. When we talk about your mother, let's talk about like, you know, this nuclear family, what is the family kind of mean too?  

Kirah: Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. You're a night chart, right? 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I am. 

Kirah: I love talking to astrologers who -for anyone listening night chart, just meaning, Ace was born at nighttime after sunset before sunrise.  

Sparkly Kat: I know you're a day chart. 

Kirah: I'm such a diurnal, I'm so diurnal and it's always such a -I love hearing my night chart colleagues talk about their client practice because it's not so different maybe from mine but it feels like it is because mine is so diurnal in that I'm always talking about the future, I'm always like I'm always forecasting. Not all the time a lot of it is just like listening to what's happening and then giving context around that and then saying okay well here's the cycle, this is probably when things change or this is probably one that ends and the I'm always looking at timing, I'm big timing freak. Yeah, and so, it's yeah. It's I -I say that to say that I love hearing you, and, you know, other night chart astrologers talk about their client readings, because they're so, so deep and there just seems to be you guys have these conversations about really important topics like gender, and not to say that things don't come up and my practice, but I feel so much more like removed, like so, diurnal, like, up in -up in the sky, kind of, like, looking at things from a different perspective.  

Sparkly Kat: You just blew my mind. I was like, I didn't even know like a reading could, I mean, talk about the future somehow. I'm like, like, I'm always talking to people about like their baby selves and I'm like woah, we could talk about the future. 

Kirah: Well it's funny that you say that because I'm kind of saving this, not really saving it actually, but I wanted to talk about astrology as time magic it -cause I just, that phrase in general like sends shivers through my bones, I'm someone who's big on timing, like I just said I'm writing a book about it like really you know timing is a big thing for me and which is why I love astrology so much. We both have our dignified Saturn in Aquarius so timing, you know, timing is a Saturn -Saturn concept time, the lord of time and how -how time -Saturn sort of constructs this illusion of time for us, right?  

This is a like, this is reality, but I wanted to -yeah, like, dig into your thoughts, around astrology as time magic but just to quote this one sentence from your book, in the conclusion of your book on page 291, you just said, "Astrology is time magic because it frames and reframes temporality." And then you go on to talk about how we use astrology to talk about emotions and you really like when it comes down to it we're -we're talking about change, and how change is the only constant and that's kind of why astrology is so fascinating because we are just like sort of like yeah it's about time and in the way that -that time changes and shifts and how we -we like to nerd out and track that shit. So yeah, tell us a little bit more about your thoughts around astrology as time magic. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah. Like when I wrote the section on change, I had just seen my grandpa, and that was the last time I saw him actually and he yeah, he said oh shit I'm going to cry. But like yeah, he died last year and then around the- I mean, yeah, Gemini New Moon actually. So, it's been a full year and then he was like hey like you know he told me that and the word for animal in Chinese is like for is Dòngwù so as moving things and then -so he's like you know if you're an animal of your life like you're meant to move. So, like yeah that's kind of like what I was thinking about when I was writing about like just the change too.  

But like, yeah, like the time magic thing, like, for the past five years, I have been working with senior citizens, like elders in immigrant communities, and also kids in immigrant communities. So, like even like a synastry chart, like, that's time magic because you're looking at like different generation Plutos, different expectations of social transformation, and you're looking at them existing in the same moment with -which is the present. And there's something so amazing about that. There's something so amazing about like just hearing these stories from the silent generation but then talking with like Gen Z kids all in the same day, like, like relationships like that's time magic. I think that's what astrology does, it's like it kind of forces us to be curious about ourselves but also about relationships, about where we overlap. 

Kirah: Wow. Yeah, it's again so night versus day and I love it because you're talking about time as in very much centered in the present moment but sort of like layering through like the through like people like the layering of time through. Yeah, through like you know people who are alive right now and I think that's so interesting, because -but I think it's interesting that you're just you're not using it to look at the future. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah. You've yeah, you've alerted me to this new use of astrology Kirah, like oh man like we can think about the future, yeah that’s so optimistic I love that. Yeah, you can build a future. 

Kirah: It's -I'm just keep thinking about our charts and how it makes sense. And you know, speaking -I don't know if you mind like talking about your, like, SMR your Sun Moon Rising. Do you mind sharing?  

Sparkly Kat: I'm a Aries Sun and Cancer Moon and Aquarius Rising. Yes, sorry I'm a Cancer Moon that's why I almost teared just now. 

Kirah: But that's why I kind of want to talk a little bit about your Cancer Moon just because like, you know, we talked about the moon for two hours of my podcast, episode 3 of my podcast, but um, yeah. I, the way you talk about your Cancer Moon really shed light on things that I -about, you know, a planet in its domicile, especially the Moon that I hadn't really considered before and part of that is just you talking about culture and how a planet in domicile can be, you know, it has what it what it needs but sometimes it can be a little too much sometimes it can be smothering or overwhelming and you know, you talking about your Cancer Moon as like just you know, someone might hear that and say, oh cool, you have a great family, right? Like you, yeah -but like your family must be great and cook really good meals. But there is that element of sort of like -like over culture, being oversaturated with the lunar principal and even without talking about it as an oversaturation or anything just talking about it as how deeply immersed you seem to be in your -in your -your culture, and the culture in which you were raised, you know, your family and your heritage, like just curious if you could talk a little bit about that and how that has been informed this work as well. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, my Cancer Moon because it's very close to or it's co-present with my south node sometimes feels like a dead weight to me, like my body. [Kirah: Mm..mhm.] I think that like the thing about food has never made sense to me with Cancer Moon. I grew up eating $0.89 frozen pizza everyday, like we, my cousin would say like you've never had Chinese food. So, like, yeah, and part of it is also cause like I'm from Hunan so like, you know, in my parents’ generation they saw famine too, so like they were like they were going hungry, five days a month. Like they, they didn't learn how to cook, like, all we ate growing up was like wheat paste boiled with like, pickled vegetables. So, like, that's the kind of like my home food. Yeah. I mean, like, I guess it's like, I say to my clients like all your placements, they're constantly changing. So, the ways that I find home now, like that's evolving all the time too. So, I don't experience my Cancer Moon in the same ways but then sometimes it comes up in those familiar ways. What about you? You're an Aries Moon. 

Kirah: Yeah, my fiery little Aries Moon. We talk -again we talked about this about a little bit on the show, how just Moon, the Moon related to culture and in, in your heritage and your race really, and yeah, like how you sort of, I always like to talk about the Moon is like your instincts. Like you're just like, how you would instinctually respond to whatever stimuli just that, like, gut reaction -and yeah, as an Aries moon, like I kind of do have built-in defenses, you know? Like I feel very, my Aries Moon is ruled by a very strong Mars in Scorpio, you know? So it's very Martian and I feel like I've for the past I don't know, maybe five years or so been trying to learn how to like turn down the defense but also like knowing when to keep it up like it's like it's not that I have good boundaries necessarily, it's just the initial reaction response to things and that comes from being in the body that I'm in, right? Like being a Black woman and this here, United States of America, you're going to be naturally not to say that everyone is but there it would make sense why you know, I have a natural defensive response to things. Yeah because of violence made on bodies like mine. So yeah, it's I love talking to you and Bear we should mention Bear River. Our other colleagues about the Moon in that context, which I don't think you hear that much about in terms of like the Moon related to race and culture as well. 

Sparkly Kat: It's your body. It's your like -your lived experience. It's how you emotionally anticipate things. 

Kirah: Yeah, it's like your physical form basically. Yeah, how did we get talking about the Moon even? Oh yeah. Just like your -I was yeah, just thinking about how your experience as a Chinese American has also informed this work too. 

Sparkly Kat: I think in a lot of different ways. Yeah. I mean, like I grew up in Iowa, so I'm also a Midwesterner, and then so I don't know. I feel like that's influenced in many ways too…I feel like I learned how to be Asian American after I like moved to New York and I started working with elders who like, had been living in different Chinatowns or lived in different Chinatowns cuz like I was, yeah, I was pretty cut off. Like, all I knew was kind of the church and things like that. 

Kirah: That makes sense. I always forget you're from Iowa and then I remember and I'm like oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I -can you talk a little bit more about your work with elderly Chinese people in New York City? 

Sparkly Kat: I mean it's just kind of like going to them and then trying to get them to come together to do like a creative activity. Like they're really sweet, they like to be praised but they're very bashful and none of them have phones. So, it's -you have to like go at the right time when they're eating lunch, but then they'll all talk to each other. So, if you catch one, then they'll all come too, it's very enjoyable. 

Kirah: Yeah, that's sweet. So, how did you get involved in that? 

Sparkly Kat: I was working at a non-profit Asian American Writers Workshop and then-  

Kirah: Oh yeah, that's where I met you for the first time. 

Sparkly Kat: Oh, okay. Oh really. There? Yeah, I didn't know-  

Kirah: It was at one of your book like launches there.  

Sparkly Kat: Oh okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was working there and then well, I mean, yeah, I was in the office, but then we had different programs in different places so I would go. 

Kirah: Cool. I want to kind of pick your brain about- I mean not pick your brain, pick your brain is not really the right word, but I want to talk a little bit about, like the future, because you talk about astrology -how astrology is change and how it's always changing and I think this book is a testament to that, right? Like you wouldn't -like this is postcolonial astrology like we wouldn't have this 10 years ago. Maybe we would have but might not have been as well-known as this is and is going to be so yeah, I feel like we're at this -well, I guess, first I want to ask you about your thoughts around where we're at right now in astrology, because it is this very I think really cool place that we're in right now. [Sparkly Kat: It is!] It's so cool like I -I'm kind of stunned that we’re even here talking, like I'm talking to you about this book you wrote about postcolonial astrology for like a college, like what this is happening? [Both laugh] 

Sparkly Kat: I know. And we all have the same mics and color-coded too. 

Kirah: And we're, yeah, we're colorful. 

 
Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I matched my shirt to yours, I thought, I saw that you were wearing lime green, so I was like oh I’m gonna wear something bright like, you know, the same cut actually. 

Kirah: I love it I'm here for it. I did notice. No, but yeah. So, talking about again, where we're at right now like what are you thinking about this moment that we’re in right now, in terms of astrology? 

Sparkly Kat: I'm so excited! Yeah. I feel like we're writing like astrology fanfiction. Like it's so like kind of fun and sexy and also like yeah just like enjoyable. Like where people are like Saturn's a he/him lesbian like I'm like okay well like yeah it's so much fun.  

Kirah: It is, it is. It's yeah, it's been blowing my mind like on the regular even last night just like I was on ClubHouse. Some astrologers were talking saying things that were just like oh my god. Yeah it feels….how do you feel like with your success right now in this moment? Like were you -did you anticipate this at all?  

Sparkly Kat: No. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know that I would be able to write a book. I was so happy that I could. Yeah. 

Kirah: Congratulations. It's hard.  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I'm so lucky. Yeah. It's yeah- 

Kirah: Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, tell me more -tell me more like, I'm wondering when where you were when you first got into astrology? Tell me what -yeah tell me about that, like how -when was that and like where were you and your life and sort of what drew you to it? 

Sparkly Kat: Oh okay, like I was in a really dark place when I got into astrology [Kirah: most of us were.] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean yeah there's some addiction issues like I like I was also married I was in this very abusive relationship, and I had to flee. Yeah, I had to get out and then, so I rented this room with no windows and then the bathroom was facing my room and there's always like this diarrhea situation like I like just I mean yeah, I don't want to paint you like a better picture like I was in a really bad place. 

Kirah: Yeah, and so what -what like, how did -how did you find astrology or how did it find you during that tough moment? 

Sparkly Kat: I think just my like, kind of wanting to see some of the things that I was going through it like some of the pain reflected back and I was Googling things and then somehow, I found astrology on Yahoo Answers, and I just like, went down the rabbit hole and then like I was going to like East Village Books and then they had a whole wall of astrology books. And yeah, I mean just got really obsessed with it. 

Kirah: Wow. Yeah, that's what so you just were Googling like answers around -or questions around processing the pain that you were in basically? 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah. I was Googling around like relationship issues specifically. 

Kirah: And something like popped up around astrology. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, what about you? How did you get into it? I don't, I don't think I know.  

Kirah: You don't have the story? I feel like I'm always telling the story so that's why I like I don't want to bore you, but I'm fine to tell it. I just didn't want to retell it. [Sparkly Kat: Tell it!]  Well, I'm one of those people who was like always kind of been into astrology but like you are too, it's just Chinese astrology you knew that probably more than I knew any type of astrology when I was younger, but I was like obsessed with birthdays and I just always knew everyone's birthday. It's just this weird thing that I took a lot of pride in, remembering birthdays. I just knew they were special, there was just something and I knew that, like, the time you were born was special. I didn't know why I knew that, but so yeah, when I was like, 10/11 was when I started really like researching online. Mostly because I was like what boys am I most compatible with, like that type of thing and just thought it would be a cool thing to know. Like oh you like that boy like I went to an all-girls school. So, you know, we talked about boys a lot, but, you know, yeah. Oh, like you'd be really compatible with him, whatever.  

And I was just really into it when I was younger and then fast forward in college, I was in a really bad place just so depressed, so like nothing matters, you know, really having like a spiritual like crisis I guess you could say like. What are we here- what are we here for like that type of thing? Yeah, nothing matters but like why? Okay so then astrology sort of re-entered my life pretty randomly a friend, just mentioned like did you know that there's Moon signs or something? And I was like, tell me more and then I saw my chart for the first time and that was the rabbit hole. I didn't, I like pulled it up one night didn't sleep that night, just stayed up all night researching and that was a little over eight years ago and here we are. [laughs] [Sparkly Kat: Wow…] So yeah, I got really obsessed, really quick. It was a Saturn transit for me. I don't know if it was for you, but it was my closing Saturn square. Saturn entering Scorpio, my ninth house. Yeah, yeah.  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah. It was around 22 for me, too. 

Kirah: Okay, yeah. So, it would have been around that same time, eclipses, all the things. 

Sparkly Kat: I feel like, like that dark moment when you're like, what's the point of life? Like, that's actually a really good question like that only shows up at those moments too. 

Kirah: Yeah, and, you know, astrology really helped with it because it I won- when I saw it -when you look at your chart, you're like this is mine like this is my map that like the universe like gave me or whatever because I remember seeing my chart for the first time and feeling this overwhelming sense of like connection and overwhelmingly that I was like being seen in witness and this like this is your thing like this is your chart. This isn't just you being a Scorpio like millions and millions of other Scorpios like this is yours and that to me was like, enough proof that -that like things mattered. 

Sparkly Kat: Like, this is your life. This is your time. [Kirah: Yeah.] I feel like -like a lot of times when you're in that place, like you only see yourself in relationship to other people and relationship to different institutions and that you like, you get so small so then it's like, well, like, here's this map, where I can be curious about my experiences, my pain, my joy. Like yeah.  

Kirah: That's such a good way of putting it. Yeah. Because at that time it was early 20s is I think the hardest time of life, honestly, I think it might be up there, right? Like it's up there with the beginning of puberty is really hard and then like early 20s that second puberty, that word is really hard for me to say. That one's really hard too because you're sort of everyone's like, okay you're an adult now, you're like, you know, you're 19 or 20 you're an adult, go out into the world and get a job and make something of yourself but no one tells you how it's like the worst time to figure out how to like make something of yourself because you're still really a child but your assumed to act like an adult. And I felt just so like betrayed by the world, which, you know, is kind of dramatic but I felt betrayed by the fact that like, we were told. Okay. I went to this like fancy private school. Cool. Check. Go to college, check. You know get a good job, make something of yourself like I felt so -I don't know. I just felt like it wasn't fair, like it wasn't that easy and yeah etc. etc. but it's just such a hard time in life and astrology just came to me at that perfect moment where I needed like proof that it was worth it, basically to like keep -to keep chugging along and keep trying. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, and I feel like having people who are like also speaking the same language where they can really- where you can say like, hey I'm going through this transit and they're like, whoa, like I can see you in what you're feeling lately like, yeah, there's something about that. Even when it's just online, you don't even know the person. It like it really feels like you've been touched physically sometimes. 

Kirah: It totally, yeah. It's -that's the thing about astrology, like I always say there's a couple ways you get into astrology. Primarily most people will get into it because it really helps with self-acceptance and you can sort of learn about yourself and from this different perspective and be like this is just the way I am, you know, not to say that you shouldn't like, you know, be a good person or whatever but yeah, it's like, you know, that was that was huge for me. It was like, oh, I'm just like a Scorpio with like Mars and like Sun, Mars, Pluto, like I'm supposed to be this intense, you know, it's like it's in the stars, you know, there's nothing wrong with me, it's just who I am.  

So, I think the self-acceptance part is so important and then the timing piece again and I think a big part of it was, which it sounds like you, you went through, and I was going through in a different, totally different scale but like, knowing that it's going to end knowing there is an end date to the suffering is like, so valuable and, you know, everyone says like, oh, like what time you'll get better, or just give it time, or, it's not like this forever, but with astrology, you can whip out your ephemeris and be like, yes, this is when that Saturn transit is over. 

Sparkly Kat: I see. Yeah, yeah. 

Kirah: So that was a big part of it for me too. [Sparkly Kat: Being able to see the cycle.] Yeah exactly. Do you use astrology for timing at all? Timing stuff at all? 

Sparkly Kat: Like, for like doing things like planning to do things I actually yeah, I actually maybe don't yeah, yeah I mean like because just because like whenever I like want to do something I want to do it right away. 

Kirah: Aries, Aries problems. [both laugh] I get that. Yeah, just I mean even -do you ever look at it for like -you look at your solar return chart I'm assuming. 

Sparkly Kat: I do yeah. 

Kirah: Like kind of looking at what's to come?  

Sparkly Kat: I look at…yeah, yeah, I'm a Pisces Solar Returned Moon this year and last year I was a Scorpio Solar Return Moon. 

Kirah: Oh yeah, they go in- they go in this like water -or not water but the elemental trails. Kind of going back to the- the book a little bit. [both laugh] I wanted to ask you about your like research. Just like your process for writing it and if -if and how you did research. And yeah, let's start there. Like the writing process and like the research accumulating of all the knowledge process.  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, yeah. I read a hundred books to write this book and I didn't use all the material, but- 

Kirah: That's a lot of books. 

Sparkly Kat: It is. Yeah. It's like, I mean, this bookcase was half full when I started and then now it's full. But like I would just pick up like free things also, because, like, my friend gave me like a Jstore login. So, I would just go in and search like sun or light and see what came up also. And then, yeah, I mean, a lot of like compiling and then I would pull out things and then like kind of like re-type the lines in my notes and that would organize it by sections. So, then the idea started coming together during the reading process. Like that's why there's so many citations is because like most of the process was a like, was about reading the writing went very fast like each chapter was a day of writing and then the reading part was like, the most laborious maybe. 

Kirah: And then like kind of the note taking and all that.  

Sparkly Kat: Organizing. Yeah, There's yeah -there's a list of Errata. I maybe mixed up some people's names and stuff.   

Kirah: Okay, wow. So, what types of books did you read? Like obviously it wasn't all astrology books. Can tell me a little bit more about that?  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I was reading. I mean, there were some astrology books, there's a book about set- there's a- there's a lot of material about Saturn -Saturn's Renaissance, Saturn in the Middle Ages, things like that. I was reading a lot of, I mean I went -I was reading Agamben because he uses a lot of Latin concepts and I would try to map them out, like I kind of used him as a hole through which a lot of like postmodern thinkers were pulling from but then he would like kind of use the Latin concepts and then I was reading a lot of Sara Ahmed because she writes about orientation, and astrology is about orientation, and so I was really interested that…I was reading like -what's that book’s name? Like this, The Politics of Feeling. Yeah, that was a really important book for the Moon chapter, I was reading Grace Allen Chen -like just kind of like things I had already -already been familiar with too because there's a lot of astrology that already shows up in post-colonial theory. Like there's a lot of references to like the nocturnal body of colonialism and then so I was reading Sylvia Winter, her essay Unsettling the Coloniality of Being was probably like the guiding essay for the book, because in that essay she looks at the spirit flesh divide which you have fate and fortune. Yeah, yeah, a lot of different things. Yeah, but also like also like Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey. Yeah, I read this book about this-  

Kirah: What do you what were you reading those for? 

 
Sparkly Kat: For the Venus and Mars chapter. Yeah, also like this book about like, Boys Love BL. Yeah, things like that. Yeah. 

Kirah: Okay. Wow. That's so much research. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, it was fun.  

Kirah: Yeah, it sounds amazing I love that. You said you just said real quick, like astrology is about orientation. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?  

Sparkly Kat: I feel like that's the chart, right? Like it orients you to the world. So then like well, the houses and then the you know the constellations.  

Kirah: Okay I see what you mean, I love that because I always like to talk about how it's about where you were in -in time and in space. Yeah, yeah. Like that moment in space-time and you like become that moment in space time. And so yeah, thinking about it that way is like it orients you in space-time as well. Look at a chart and it's sort of like yeah, put you into a place and like a moment in time and space.  

Sparkly Kat: In history but also geography too. 

Kirah: Yeah, yeah, exactly…wow. Okay. I'm like all the little data points are moving around in my head. Cool. So, you did a lot of research from a lot of different angles. I know you just listed a bunch, but anything in particular that like yeah, any piece in particular, outside the ones you just listed that you know really, it's like popping up for you that you think that would be interesting to share that you came across in your research.  

Sparkly Kat: I think like the most powerful moment when I was researching is when I found like two PDF books online, no I think I bought the e-book for -for these books actually and then it was like just kind of random and this was like yeah this was like it was like two books. I can't remember the titles. Like I have no memory of any names, but one book was talking about how like colonialism pushes death like outward from the capital and then another book was like, it was mapping, like, the movement of body parts and like, through like organ donation and it was like, hey, like colonialism actually extracts, living flesh from the colonies and brings it to the capital. And I was like, whoa, like there's just constant moving of life and death like just kind of looking at these two texts, like together that was like just like really harrowing so that was a really powerful moment in the research. And, you know, there are moments like that too. I think when -when I was researching Venus and Mars just like seeing some of the older Hebrew texts about like a city under siege and how these cities become gendered and then like kind of reading about like the state of war, after the Cold War, like, there was something that just kind of clicked through that experience too. 

Kirah: Thank you for sharing that. I'm like, okay, now we need to find the names of these. Yeah. Wow. Okay, I'm thinking, well, I guess one thing I wanted to maybe to close out I think we I think this might close us out depending on how long we want to talk about it but I -I do want to talk a little bit about- we -I've been kind of popping all around. Where is your Mercury at? 

Sparkly Kat: Oh, my Mercury is at Pisces. 

Kirah: It's at Pisces, okay, mine’s in Sag so we have the detrimental Jupiter- Jupiterian Mercury is kind of running all over the place, but I wanted to circle back because we talked a little bit about like this moment in time that we're in right now. This moment in space-time that we're in right now with astrology and how neither of us really anticipated this at all and how cool it is, right? That we are able to not just like talk about these things but expand on them and what did you say? You said something like, it's in a phase where -what did you say? You were talking about being really playful, but you said something that it was like we were developing like fanfiction [Sparkly Kat: Yeah.] for astrology. Which it really does feel like that a lot of the time. It's so nice. What do you see -I know we don't talk about much about the future, [laughing] I know you're not -but what do you see coming? Like do you have any ideas as to what the -what lies in astrology's future?  

Sparkly Kat: I don't know. Yeah, like, I mean, I don't spend that much time thinking about the future, so this is maybe like a weak spot for me, actually. Yeah. 

Kirah: I love the -I mean that blows my mind because it’s just like, when am I not thinking about the future. This is where apples -apples and oranges, right?  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I think about the past a lot. Yeah. What do you think will come? 

Kirah: Well, you know, I am excited to see more pieces like more -more work like yours more critical pieces using astrology to -to comment on the state of the world and you know, institutions that -that we dwell within and just more I think community is -is a big thing right now, because Saturn and Aquarius and Jupiter about I'm sorry Pluto about to enter Aquarius. And we're talking a lot more about just communities in general and how we can better support each other. And I think, more importantly, not more importantly, sorry but also and also craft and create communities or structures for communities to exist in that are safe and equitable, and you know good for everyone and not just a couple people. So, yeah, I'm just looking forward to seeing how that continues to shape up within the astrology community. And I'm also just excited to see how astrology continues to be more utilized by people who like aren't astrologers, you know, and aren't into astrology. Like, I'm interested to see where, you know astrologers doing work more consulting for other industries and other types of people. [Sparkly Kat: Yeah.] Because it's really useful knowledge. You know -you know I'm like people are kind of catching on.  

Sparkly Kat: Right, like there's musicians like using astrology to write music. Like yeah -like you don't have to do client work to be an astrologer. You can -there's a lot of different ways.  

Kirah: Yeah, exactly. In -but you also host community as well, too. So, it's not like -so yeah, I'm curious, like how that has been going for you? Yeah, because you've been sort of hosting gatherings yourself too, right?  

Sparkly Kat: Well, that was my day job for five years is yeah, making community programs. So, like, I mean, this last year has been weird with community stuff because it's all like kind of virtual and yeah, I don't love like virtual events because like, yeah, you know, and rightfully like, people want their cameras off. People are tired, like people are shy but I like to see people face to face. 

Kirah: Yeah, yeah. But you have been hosting some like monthly gatherings for people who sort of subscribe to your website, right?  

Sparkly Kat: I do, yeah, I have a reading group. So, I have these people that I read things with every month.  

Kirah: So good. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, yeah, it's fun. We read some like Ursula Le Guin together. We read her essay on like myth-making in science fiction, we read like some things like some essays that people were writing in on live-journal in 2009 about representation in myth and speculative fiction. 

Kirah: That's amazing. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, yeah. We have a lot of fun. We talk about things. 

Kirah: Do you talk astrology as well or is it mostly just reading? 

Sparkly Kat: So, like a lot of the things they relate to astrology, for example, we read Sylvia Winters’, essay like hey this is about fate and fortune but like, yeah, this this month next weekend we're going to be looking more just like getting groundwork for traditional astrology because then we can read more. We can work -then we're going to read Banu Subramaniam and like, Darwin’s Ghost and really look at like the cultural workings of science effeminate science. And so yeah, yeah, I'm really excited. We're yeah -we're gonna do some astrology and then like kind of like, deep dive into every step. I'm so excited. 

Kirah: Yeah, awesome. That's such a great -I think it -people need that and are craving things like that…But yeah, I mean it's -I'm just grateful for you and other folks within our community just like creating space, creating spaces within the larger astro-community space because there are so many different niches and things that people are interested in and I don't know. I just feel like folks are really grateful for you being in this community and for the work that you make. 

Sparkly Kat: Thanks, yeah. Me too. I'm glad that like you're here. I feel like you're like, like you hold people together and you also like give us more energy too in a really like kind of sincere way.  

Kirah: Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's funny you said hold people together. I'm like, that's what you do. Yeah, you're always -you've been involved in other community projects too like the Queer Astrology Conference last year. You just aren't as loud about it as I am. So, I yeah, I appreciate you doing that work and just all the work that you do. I don't know how you do all of it actually, Ace like can that be my last question. How do you do- how are you writing all these things and doing readings and working and making great memes? Like how do you do it all?  

Sparkly Kat: Aw! Yeah, I mean I feel like -like I feel like you do a lot more than me so like I don't know. I like I'm like, Saturn's in my first house now. I'm a little bit busier but before I was sleeping for like 12 hours a day. So, I feel like I don't do that much. 

Kirah: I mean yeah, I do a lot, but I couldn't do it -I couldn't do the things that you do like the writing the way that you crank out writing, is something that is completely foreign to me. So yeah, I'm very -it's admirable. Do you write like every day?  

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I write every day, but I've always written every day because I would write like dirty fanfiction every day. 

Kirah: Okay. Yeah. So, you're used to just being in that flow of just like letting it pour out of you. 

Sparkly Kat: Yeah, I used to write a chapter a day. [Kirah: Oh my god, I’m jealous.] When I was a teen. Yeah. Updating like yeah, very quickly. 

Kirah: Gosh take me back to live-journal, right? [Sparkly Kat: Yeah, yeah, yeah!] [Both laugh] Well, that was really -it's just like fun talking to you always. Ace, this was so fun.  

Alice: Yeah, it was fun talking to you. 

Kirah: You too. I'm sure we'll talk again soon, but I guess we should close it out for tonight, so we don't just keep going forever. [Laughing] Yeah, thank you so much everyone. Buy this book you need to have it. It's really good. I love -I think now the people are gonna read it and sort of like know how you speak solo here they'll hear you and they're when they're reading it which is such a pleasure for me because I'm like you know I'm just like aw, this is so Ace, so thank you so much for writing this and for sitting down with me to talk about it. 

Alice: No, thank you, yeah thanks for chatting and for hanging out.  

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  

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