CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

[Cheerful theme music begins] 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

One of the country’s leading organizers, Principal at Black Futures Lab, and a co-creator of #BlackLivesMatter, Alicia Garza's work has helped shape the discourse on movements and empowerment for more than a decade. In this episode, performer, social worker, and activist Honey Mahogany talks with Alicia about her life, her work, and her latest book, The Purpose of Power. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on October 20th, 2021. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

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Honey: Hi!  

Alicia: Hey, hey, it's so good to be here with you.  

Honey: Hey lady, I am super excited to be here with you. It's been a long time since we've spoken but I- just when I was asked to be in conversation with you, I felt so honored and so touched because obviously, you know, I'm a huge fan and your work has touched so many lives and then I read your book and I really, really loved it. Particularly, I think because I saw so much of myself in it: just from another Bay Area born and raised, queer Black femme…like so much that we- I would love to talk to you about. So, I'm super excited to dive into this. So, thank you. 

Alicia: Thank you. And thank you for agreeing to do this and thank you to everybody who's watching right now for joining us this evening.  

Honey: All right. Well, I think we should just go ahead and get started, you know, [Alicia: Let’s get in.] Let's get into it. In August of 2013, after the acquittal of the man who killed Trayvon Martin, you wrote on Facebook, “Black people, I love you. I love us. Our lives matter.” It was a hashtag that was heard around the world, #BlackLivesMatter, and the beginning of a movement. So, what have you learned in the years since that post went viral? And are there ways in which the movement has evolved that has surprised you and have you evolved and has that surprised you and what does that look like? 

Alicia: Oh, yes. This is an excellent question. I'm- well, the first thing that I- I guess I reinforce is that this movement is so much older than us. Right? I mean any time that there is injustice or disintegration, right? There are people who stand up to bridge the gap and there are people who stand up to make things right. And that process, right, did not begin with Patrice or Opal or myself. This process of a movement for Black liberation is a very old movement and Black Lives Matter is really our generation’s stamp on this long, long river of people stepping up to change the things that they can no longer abide by.  

And so, in that way, I'm- one thing that I've learned is to be really grateful for the shoulders that we stand on and to be courageous in terms of what it means to make our mark on history. The other thing that I've learned is that movements require collaboration, they require strategy, and they require an ability to commit to getting to the other side with each other. And, you know, the last decade has been very tumultuous in a whole bunch of ways, and we are not the only movement in town, right? There is a movement that has been brewing in this country for the better part of four decades, and it is a movement that we clash with all the time, right, it's the conservative movement. It is the movement that aims to roll back all of the things that you and I, and the people who came before us, have fought for.  

And so, in that what is really important for us to understand, right, is that our movements are not the only ones that are still trying to figure out how to deal with conflict, still trying to figure out how to build effective coalitions and alliances, but we have to do it, right. It's for the sake of, not just being successful, but for the sake of also building the world that it is that we want to see. So that is something that I am reminded of often. And I would say, just in terms of the evolution of this movement, you know, I think this movement has grown and it's come of age. When this, this kind of piece of this movement began, it was really a hard thing for people to wrap their minds and their hearts around #BlackLivesMatter. I mean, obviously Black folks, we, [laughing] we know this inherently, right? But, you know, in the beginning, there was so much handwringing and pearl clutching about saying, Black Lives Matter. People were like “what about other lives” and “why not all lives” and, you know, “what about this and that”. It was a lot of “what-about-ism”. And now I think because we continue to see the same dynamics over and over again, because now, we've seen a re-emergence and a resurgence of activity related to fighting for that world that we deserve, it seems like we as a country in some ways have evolved. We've evolved from, “why are we just saying Black lives and not all lives” to “okay, well, what does it mean to actually put that into practice” and we're seeing that struggle play out every single day from, you know, the infrastructure bill that we just can't seem to get the money, [laughter] to police reform which just didn't actually happen at all, to voting rights, right? We're still trying to figure out how do we put this set of values right into practice and into public policy.  

Personally, the way I think I've evolved is, you know, I- my roots are as a local organizer. I did not start organizing with Black Lives Matter. And as you mentioned, you know, in the book, I've been organizing in the Bay Area for the better part of 20 years. And so, it was certainly a shift for me to go from being behind the scenes to having a much more public profile. But with that being said, I think the thing that I have evolved to, right, is not being so thin-skinned. [laughs] But when you are in the spotlight, whether you want to be or not, there are people who are cheering you on and there are people who are trying to take you out. And I'm- it used to really bother me, right? I'm somebody that likes to resolve things. I’m like “why don't you like me? Why are you trolling me on social media?” And I've learned in this kind of past decade how to have a tough skin, but also a soft heart. And I really work hard not to let things like that make me bitter or make me sad or make me upset, right? I really work to continue to try and reach everybody who can be reached. And at the same time, not let in, right, a lot of the negative energy that people can kind of bring your way, especially when you are trying to change the world for the better.  

Honey: So, you're not responding to trolls on Twitter. You're not like getting in there and fighting back. Have you done that in the past and have you learned or…? [laughter] 

Alicia: [laughter] Well, you know, the thing about that is it takes up a lot of time and, you know, sometimes I have time. [Honey laughs] Sometimes I have time for it but most of the time. Yeah, you know, I'm like, oh wait, I have time today, but most of the time I just try to think about, you know, what else could I be doing with this time that I'm spending going back and forth with an avatar. Maybe there's a real person behind here, but maybe not. And actually, I would much rather, right, be doing the movement building work that I do then going back and forth with people on social media. 

Honey: Yeah. I mean, there's just so much that I could really like, talk to you forever about within that last answer you just gave us. But one part that I wanted to pick up and sort of do a follow-up question is when we think about that hashtag #BlackLivesMatter, there has been ways in which that hashtag has been sort of reformed or reformatted. One of the things that we did with the Trans District, which you know, I think I was on the phone with you that day was we put #BlackTransLivesMatter [Alicia: I love it.] in the center of Turk and Taylor, which is like right where the Compton's Cafeteria riots happened in 1966 in San Francisco, right. Centering the Trans District, the Trans Liberation Movement and I was- and there was just broad, huge community support from the people of the Tenderloin because it's that kind of a neighborhood, right? [Alicia: That's right.] It's so diverse. There's so many of us and we all come together, and we understand each other's struggles, or try to. But there were some folks who were there who were Black and I will say it was just really one person who was like “you are disrespecting #BlackLivesMatter by putting #BlackTransLivesMatter. Like it's already implied. You don't need to do that”, you know, and so I guess, what would your response be to that? 

Alicia: [laughter] You’ve been waiting to ask that question! Garza says, it's good. [laughter] No, but I just- let’s be serious for a second. I mean, it should be implied, and it certainly is what we mean when we said Black Lives Matter and we actually have been really explicit and intentional about making sure that we make visible all of the lives that are Black. Unfortunately, it's not actually implied in practice, right? And a great example, I can give is this whole controversy surrounding Dave Chappelle and his really juvenile and transphobic comedy special, right, where he spends, you know, more than half of this special being transphobic and just kind of awful. And, and I think at the root of that, right, is the fact that he really is separating out trans folks from Black folks. And that's a problem because Black people are also trans. Black people are queer. Black people are gay, bisexual, lesbian, transgender, gender queer, right. Like we are everywhere, and we occupy many different spaces, and this is a kind of age-old tension, right? Where we designate some things, as things that white people do, right, and other things as you know, inherent to Black people. And the fact of the matter is, is that narrative is deeply problematic. And so, yeah, sometimes it is important to say Black Trans Lives Matter because Black Trans lives are getting left out of the conversation about whose Black Lives Matter. And, you know, and as long as we continue to do that, we are going to continue to lose Black lives. Black trans women are being killed at astronomical rates, proportionate to their actual population. But even if we're not killing Black trans women, right? We're not helping Black trans women live. And so, we have to be able to have those explicit conversations until it is innate in people. That when we say Black Lives Matter, we also mean Black Trans Lives Matter. 

Honey: Thank you, you know, just wanted to put it on the record again. [laughter] 

Alicia: [laughter] Garza said, Honey.  

Honey: Since we had time tonight. I thought I’d just put that on the record.  

Alicia: We made time tonight, that is absolutely correct.  

Honey: You know, your book is called The Purpose of Power. And so, I really wanted to ask you about this because you know, this is something that I think about a lot working in politics as chair of the San Francisco Democratic Party. So, what, what is power, how do we use it? What does it mean to you? 

Alicia: BTW, congratulations.  

Honey: Thank you.  

Alicia: Yeah. Are you the first Black trans woman to be chair? 

Honey: So technically, the first transgender chair in the country, but then in San Francisco, also, the first Black chair. There's never been a Black chair of the San Francisco Democratic party in San Francisco history.  

Alicia: Well, come on. Well, come on. Well, come on. 

Honey: [laughs] So, I'll take it. Thank you.  

Alicia: So, let us also have that conversation about power, right? The fact that you could be the first in the nation and in San Francisco is- it is...telling about where power lies, how rules are made, who is making rules for whom, and who is having to accept rules being made by somebody else for us. And, you know, for me, the piece in this book that I really want people to like grab onto is the pieces about power. And when we talk about movements, often we’re talking about making change, right? But in order to make change you need to exercise and wield and build power.  

And so much of the way that we think about power, that we talk about power, is really not power. It's empowerment and there's a difference. Empowerment, I say, is what happens when people feel good about themselves in the circumstances that they're living in, right? Empowerment is like self-esteem. It's feeling good about yourself. But power is the ability to make the rules and the ability to change the rules and that has nothing to do, right, with feeling good about yourself. It has everything to do with your ability to decide where resources go and where they don't. It has to do with who gets to tell the story of who we are, and who we can be together. Who belongs, who doesn't, power is fundamentally about who represents you, right, and what agenda they represent on your behalf and power is also very much about whether or not people are afraid to disappoint you.  

Yeah, and when we look at the landscape of power in this country and who has it and who doesn't, right, we often spend a lot of time talking about empowering Black communities, but not making Black communities powerful. That's the work that I do at the Black Futures lab, and the Black to the Future action fund, right? We work to build Black political power, so that Black people and Black communities can be powerful in every aspect of our lives. And so, we can join a multiracial movement that fights to build a multiracial democracy, which is really what we should have in this country.  

So, for me, that piece of the book is very, very important and we touch on it a bunch in a bunch of different ways, but we have a whole chapter where we're just talking about power; how we know we have it, how we know we don't have it, how we build it, and how we also transform it, right? There's a lot of conversation that we do in the book where we're talking about how power isn't just about having Black faces in high places, power also has to be about making sure that people who are representing our communities, right, are representing an agenda that helps move us all forward. And so no, it's not enough to have a Black president. No, it's not enough to have a Black person on the Supreme Court, especially if what we're doing as that Black person, right, is advancing policy, public policy that is harming Black communities. So, it's not just about being at the table. It's about what you do when you get there.  

Honey: Absolutely, a hundred percent. I was just thinking about this today because, you know, one of my roles is I work as a legislative aide in City Hall and thinking about the different community and, you know, all of this is nuanced, right, because people, when they talk about Black communities, poor communities, queer communities, trans communities. We don't all think the same. [Alicia: That's right.] We, you know, people who are, you know, in the heart of the Tenderloin who are, you know, really in the thick of it right, may not necessarily want to feel safe and associate that with more police presence for example, right? And that is true in Black communities across the country. And so how do you balance that with like the liberation from the prison industrial complex and really creating equity? So that key of like, who are you listening to and what are you bringing to the table? And how do you bring people in, I think, is another thing that you talk a lot about. How do we built a movement where we are being more inclusive? So, I'm wondering if you could talk about that. Like how do you have those types of conversations? And like, how do you, how do you allow for, I guess, those conversations to even happen so that you can build these intersectional movements, which is another thing that you talk about. 

Alicia: Yeah, well, first and foremost as you know, in your role as legislative aide, as you're in your role as chair of the San Francisco Democratic Party, I mean, so much of what it means to get things done is about relationships and it's about building and maintaining and sustaining relationships and it always drives me bananas when people go, “well, I really want to have trans voices at the table, but you know, we can't get anybody to come”. And I’m like that's because you don't have relationships. It's because you ask people last minute to come and be window dressing as opposed to building with people between meetings, building with people when you're not trying to get something from them and making sure that you're building with people, especially when they have given their time, their solutions, right, and they're giving their work. So that's important.  

And I also think that part of what it means to build and maintain relationships is paying attention to who's not at the table. Yeah, so when we talk about intersectionality, right, it's a word that people are throwing around a lot these days. That and critical race theory and all kinds of other things. But it's really just a fancy way of talking about how we map power. How we understand, right, who has been let in and who has been left out, who's getting left behind over and over again, and we have a responsibility to pay attention to that and not just pay attention to it, but to do something to change it. So, one of the things that is very successful, right, is continuing to ask yourself who's not here and why, and what can we be doing differently to make sure that people are at the table and contributing and shaping the menu, right? Not just sitting there as you know, like you're, you're filling a quota, right, but actually making sure that people are contributing in real ways. 

Honey: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you write in your book that, you know, controlling the story of who we are and what makes us who we are is an exercise of power, right. So, I guess the key question here is, how do we actually control that narrative?  

Alicia: Yeah. Well, you know, it's complicated because media is owned, right? Lots of media is owned by a small group of people. But with the rise of technology, with the rise of social media, I think we're starting to see more people being able to contribute right to the conversation and also to shape narratives on our own and this can be a good thing, or it can be a bad thing. I mean, we're now kind of in a disinformation and misinformation age because these platforms are completely unregulated, so literally anybody can get on them and say literally whatever they want. And there's no way to really know like is that a real thing or is it not. 

But as it relates to controlling your own narrative, I mean, there's a couple of examples. One is what we've done with Black Lives Matter, and I remember very early on, you know, when we kind of launched this, quite by accident, people were starting to take it and do all kinds of things with it. Right? We saw dogs’ lives matter. We saw Black and brown Lives Matter. We saw, you know all kinds of things, right? And I actually ended up writing a piece for The Feminist Wire and initially, before it was called “A Her-story of the Black Lives Matter Movement”, the original title of that piece was “Erasing the Black from Black Lives Matter”, and it was asking people to consider what you were doing when you were taking Black out and replacing it with something else. Not just practically what you're doing but what are the implications short-term and long-term? Why do we feel the need, right, to take it and remix it and mix it up if we haven't even dealt with the original piece of it in the first place, right? So, every time we take Black out, we are making a political statement and it was actually very helpful in doing that because I think at first, a lot of people didn't know where it came from, some of that was intentional, right? We weren't trying to be figureheads of this thing. And so, we did a lot of things kind of behind the scenes and kind of underground. And it wasn't until we saw some legacy organizations trying to take Black Lives Matter and kind of smash it into a tiny little box of only being about Black men, who are being killed, Black cis het men being killed by the police that we had to actually step out and say, well no, that's not what we designed this for, right? We designed it for: yes, cis het Black men who are being killed by the police. But we also designed it for all Black people who are being impacted by state violence. And we're doing that to ask you to consider, right, all of the different ways in which power and the misapplication of power, right, is impacting our communities, and then we figure out what we can do about it from there.  

So that is one example of how you control a narrative is putting out your own story. In a lot of ways, that piece has become seminal. It's being taught in, you know, colleges and universities across the world and it was a really important way, I think, for us to establish, right, the floor for what it was that we were trying to do. Now certainly there's pieces of this that you can't control, right? And once something goes viral, once something kind of becomes bigger than you, a lot of times most of what you can do is kind of look and watch and be like, “oh, this is very interesting”. It is in some ways like human nature to take something that resonates and try to make it fit for your context, but it is also important to document. We don't do enough archiving of where things come from and what the original intents were. And I wrote this book because I wanted to put my perspective and my experience out there in the world, not as the only experience, not as the only perspective, but as a piece of what should be a wider canon of organizers, stories and experiences, and visions and struggles. And I hope at some point that there is more of a canon from organizers, from activists, like yourself who have been doing this work, and we want to make sure that this gets archived in such a way that people who are coming after us can also learn from what we've done, not just by hearsay, right? But that there's an actual record. And so, I think that's important as well.  

Honey: Yeah, so many grains of just truth and gold in there. I want to ask you about the next generation of activists, right? The people who are looking to you and others and saying like I want to be like Alicia, and I want to be an activist and I want to be a part of a movement. What is your advice to people like this, people who are interested in getting involved or making a difference?  

Alicia: Well, my advice honestly is, don't be like me, be the best version of yourself! We need more people to roll up their sleeves and make their impact and make their stamp on this movement. I have been really lucky to be able to do that for the last 20 plus years, and I hope to be doing it for even longer. And we need more hands to lift this- the struggle because it is, it is heavy. So, my advice would be really try to consider what your stamp is going to be and what your contribution is going to be. And then find your lane and get in it and work it really, really well.  

Honey: Yeah, I like that. I like that. I want to go back to this idea of inviting people in just because you know, you mentioned in your book that, and I think we see this a lot. Right? And we think as progressive people that we are right and that we are on the right side of history. And we, you know, the truth will set us free, and people will just you know, fall in line and realize, you know, have the wool pulled off over their eyes and they'll realize that they're wrong. But you write in your book that A) that being radical is not a litmus test, right? [Alicia: That's right.] but also that we need to create space for people to join our movement because winning is not about being right, but about how you invite others in. So, I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about how do we invite people in?  

Alicia: Oh, yeah. Thank you for bringing this up because I think it's one of the strongest lessons that I've learned in the years that I've been doing this work. You know, I think sometimes, in the progressive movement and in the left, we spend a lot of time on facts and figures and not enough time on hearts and minds. And the thing is, each of us knows certain things to be true, right? But depending on what's happening inside your heart, right, you might take different action.  

So, for example, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about process. We spend a lot of time, right, talking about, like I said, facts and figures but then there's also something about and how you make people feel that they actually remember, right? Maya Angelou told us this, right? People remember how you make them feel, and I think that that is a lesson that our movements could use a little bit more of. Do our movements feel like home? Do our movements feel like places where people can not have to know everything before they get invited in? Do our movements feel like places where you're proud to tell your family about it and your loved ones, right? And you are excited to get them involved too. Do our movements feel like places where the problems that we're facing every day can get solved?  

And that's not about facts and figures and process, right? It's about the kinds of spaces that we create. It's about how we treat people. It's about how we bring people along. And it's frankly about if we invite people in in the first place. When I first started organizing, I was always told we're looking for people who are looking for us, right, but sometimes people don't know they're looking for you. They just are looking for a solution. They're looking for some relief. They're looking to not feel alone. They're looking to not feel isolated. And our job, right, is to find people and let them know that there is a place for them.  

Our opponents do that really, really well. They don't start off with the like, most radical of their ideas, right? They start off real small, right. And by real small, they start off by acknowledging that things aren't the way they're supposed to be. They start off by acknowledging that, that you might feel alone. And then they invite you to be a part of something bigger than yourself, right? And then they give you answers for why the things that you're experiencing are happening to you and who's responsible for those things, right? And then they connect you and they give you other people to take action with, right? And then at that point, then they start giving you all their most radical stuff. So, by the time you get there, you're already deep in, right? You've already found connections that matter to you that you will fight for, that you will fight to defend, right? And for any of those of us who have people in our families who have been radicalized, right, by our opponents, you've seen this process, right? This is exactly how cults organize, right? It's also how white supremacist groups organize, right? They don't start off with like the worst of their ideology. They start off by helping you find a family. And so that is something that I think we need to pay attention to. And in particular, the last thing I'll say on this is I think we could do a lot more to- as my friend Ai-jen, always says- Ai-jen is the director at the National Domestic Workers Alliance. And she's also a genius, like, literally a MacArthur genius and then also a genius. She always says, “is there room amongst the woke for the waking?” And that is something that I think we all have to carry with us and hold it close to us. 

Honey: That's good. That's really good. We have- we do have about 10 minutes left and I just want to give you some time to talk about what is next for you. I mean, you've done all of these amazing things with Black Future Labs, with #BlackLivesMatter. What is next for you? 

Alicia: Well, [laughs] there are so many things in the hopper, Honey! [Honey: You have a podcast.] I do have a podcast and it's called Lady Don't Take No, if you haven't listened, please do. We took on this project right when the pandemic started and it really- it just comes from, you know, myself as a political junkie, I literally could not watch any news. It was the Trump era. I was tired of seeing his face and tired of hearing him lie and tired of seeing the same old stories over and over again in each block. And also, you know, we're traumatized, right, because there's a global pandemic happening, but we still need to pay attention and we still need our news. And so, what we're doing at Lady Don't Take No is blending the very best of politics and pop culture often with a side of beauty recommendations. And it is really for the people who want to take action, want to understand what's going on in the world, but can't deal with you know CNN or MSNBC. So, I do that work for you and we come up with the best of the best every week. So, tune in every Friday where you're probably commuting again.  

The other thing that I'm up to, I'm leaving the Bay Areaaaaa! [Honey: No! Where are you going?] I just bought a house in Atlanta. [Honey: Awww...congratulations!] Yeah, so I'll be doing that as well. And with the Black Futures Lab, we are getting up. Getting ready for midterm elections and the Black to the Future Action Fund. So, we will be launching the Black census again next year. As you all know, we conducted the largest survey of Black people in America in a hundred and fifty-six years, and we're about to break our own record and try to influence the agenda for what is happening in the midterm elections and how people are coming out to vote and what they're voting for. So, check us out, please don't forget about us. We need your help. And [dog barking] the other thing, that's my dog going crazy because my- we got some stuff going on here at the house. I know, I'm like, “Charlie!” The other thing that we're doing is we are working to turn the podcast into a TV show. So, we've got some really cool stuff on deck. 

Honey: That is really exciting. Will you film it in Atlanta? 

Alicia: Well, we will be filming all over the place, but we did just shoot some things in Atlanta this week. 

Honey: That’s really exciting. Well, again, congratulations. I mean, I talked about this with my Black friends all the time, but you know Black homeownership. I mean, that is an achievement. And I think that we will be talking more about it and more about how we can build wealth and resources for our communities. So, congratulations. [Alicia: Thank you.] I'm gonna pick your brain for all your secrets. [Alicia: Please!] And I just yeah, it's been such a pleasure getting to talk to you, for the last 45 minutes. I could talk to you forever. And one of these days, we're going to have to commiserate over, you know, growing up in the Bay Area, [Alicia: Listen.] going to the predominantly white schools and being the only Black person in your school and all that stuff.  

Alicia: I would love it, anytime. 

Honey: [sigh] Well, it's been such a pleasure talking to you.  

Alicia: Thank you for having me and thanks for everybody who joined us tonight.  

Honey: Yes, thank you to everyone. Thank you to CIIS.  

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  

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