CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

[Cheerful theme music begins]

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

What is the role of holistic and spiritual wisdom in social justice education? How do we address the disconnect between our social justice aspirations and institutions that are mired in bureaucratic processes?  

In this episode, CIIS Dean of Faculty Development, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Danielle Drake and Women’s Spirituality faculty member Alka Arora address these questions and more in an illuminating conversation on how integral education—when understood through a critical feminist lens—can be a profound means of social transformation.

This episode was recorded during a live event on September 6th, 2023. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

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Dr. Alka Arora: I wanted to start, Danielle, by saying how much fun it is to be doing this with you in person, especially now that I live in Chicago. We only get to do this kind of conversation over Zoom. 

Dr. Danielle Drake: Yeah. 

Dr. Arora: And so I was, you know, we talked about our current work quite a bit in our one-on-one conversations, but I've been really curious about, and I'm sure our audience is too, is with this like really diverse set of educational and skill sets that you have, and poet, and I know you've been in the business world, and psychology, and all of these different things. What was your educational trajectory like, and what brought you to CIIS?

Dr. Drake: I mean, I definitely had a  non-traditional path. I didn't necessarily know that I would end up at CIIS in the field of expressive arts, and psychology, and all of those things. Really, I just found myself in a place where after I graduated from undergrad with a degree in business, I was working in corporate HR for a number of years, and then got really fed up with it pretty quickly because I just was recognizing the way that businesses were making profits off the backs of very poor people. And I just, it didn't sit right with me, with my personal ethics, with my soul, none of that. And so I just, I left that field after moving to the Bay Area, and what really sparked my, the impetus to move out of that field completely was when I moved to the Bay Area, I started doing West African dance. And it just opened me up in this whole other way that I wasn't expecting. And I feel like it turned on parts of my DNA that were just, it's epigenetics. It was literally genes being expressed. And I felt that, I felt it in my body. I was changing. And then all of these emotions, and words, and things started to rumble and shake inside of me. And I just started writing, and writing, and writing. And when I started writing, and I just, it was like a secret that I was keeping from myself. So I would write, and then I would put it in a shoe box, and then put that shoe box way under my bed. And it was like, okay, this is a secret from the world. But then I remember I was also going through this spiritual transformation, because I grew up very sheltered, and afraid of the world in a lot of different ways. But then really I realized that I was afraid of me and my personal potential. And so I was on this spiritual journey. And I had an experience at a conference, this spirituality conference. And I just remember being so uplifted inside of me that it was a high that I never came down from. Because it was really an elevation of spirit, an elevation of my mind, and everything about me. And from that point on, I just decided that I would not be afraid to follow my path, my intuition. And then fast forward, I ended up in the Bay Area doing all of these things, and was like a part of the Poetry Slam community. I had started a community based organization where I was providing after school enrichment class, or workshops to girls in the Oakland community. And they started telling me their trauma narratives. And I was like, well, I am not prepared for this. So I was like, I need to go back to school. Now, what would I go back to school for? Something around counseling, or psychology, or something, I don't know. And I remembered hearing about CIIS, because one of my friends was going here at the time. And I said, well, I wonder, do they have any psychology or counseling programs here? Which is funny, because they've got a lot. But I also knew about it, because when I initially thought about CIIS, I was like, oh, that women's spirituality program sounds really nice. I think I might want to do that. And I was really looking into it. And then for some reason, it fell off my radar. And when I came back, I was looking into the programs, and I found expressive arts therapy. And that was it. I just felt like I had found exactly what I had been sort of trained to do my entire life. My family is extremely creative. We were always singing, and dancing, and cooking, and gardening, and making things. And just like, proliferation of creativity. And so it just felt like home once I got there. And then everything that I was learning made me more and more excited. And I just ended up, I kept going. I kept going. And then I decided I wanted to do a PhD when I realized that there wasn't a whole lot of research that was being done on the African American community specifically around creativity, creativity research. And I was like, how is that possible? I was like, we're literally creating like whole genres of music here in this country. Absolutely. I mean, and, and, and, and it just wasn't happening. So that's the direction that I went, really looking at the connection between creativity and spirituality. And because I feel like that is like the sweet spot, especially for folks who have the experience as a the experience as, as descendants of enslaved Africans in the United States, like, because of the ways that the enslavement experience and Jim Crow and like all of the things in between, kept us from being able to speak out the ways that we needed to, without, you know, fatality with our lives being on the line and everything that we had to subvert our, our voice into another place. And so it was really that it was, it was the creativity, it was the music and the poetry and the dance and all of that, that has spoken to me and to, and to us, you know, and so that's, that has been, I feel like the crux of like what I've been doing in academia. Yeah. 

Dr. Arora: Wow. So great to hear. Like, I feel like I'm getting to know you on a whole new, like deeper level to this conversation. 

Dr. Drake: Yes. Yes. And, you know, it was interesting because you and I really started to get to know each other as academics and things like that, because you invited me to come and just co-work with you in Crockett. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah

Dr. Drake: Remember at that little cafe, we used to get together 

Dr. Arora: Oh right, right Yeah

Dr. Drake: and we would grade papers together and write and stuff like that. And so. 

Dr. Arora: I love those kinds of just like casual ways of hanging out and getting stuff done. Yeah. Yeah. And like, as I'm listening to your story, I'm thinking like, we have such different backgrounds and at the same time, like this common theme of having a very circuitous route and all kinds of different interests and passions. 

Dr. Drake: Right. Because I want you to tell people how you started out, which was not in women's spirituality. 

Dr. Arora: Not at all. I was a math major in college at the University of Southern California. And I grew up with a dad who had a really strong math aptitude. I might even say math genius. And so I got a lot of that like interest from him. And one of the things about math that I found is when I was growing up with a lot of chaos, there's actually something soothing about a process that pulls you into your logical brain and there's a right answer. Right. So I went to get a math major. And then when I was at USC, I just, you know, as an elective, I'm like, oh, this is going to be fun. I'm going to take a class on the study of women and men in society. And I just got lit up. You know, it was like one of those moments you were talking about of just like you feel it. And I was starting to make sense of what my experience had been like as a woman coming from my family is I'm first generation Indian American. My family's from India coming from a patriarchal culture and also living in a patriarchal culture in the US. And it was helping me make sense of all of that. Right. I never thought that would be my career. It was just became my personal passion to become to be a feminist. But after college, I moved back home and I was like, God, what am I going to do with this math degree? And my dad wanted me to go into it. And people used to be like, well, you could become an actuary. And I'm just like, oh, that's so depressing. And, you know, at that time in my life, I couldn't see a positive social like outcome that I could do with math. And I want to make it very clear for those listening. I'm not saying that I don't think it's possible. I think there's a lot of really great things folks can do with the math and sciences. I just couldn't see it at that time. And I remember I was sitting at home and my parents dining table one day and my dad was looking at me because I was doing odd jobs. And he's like, what are you doing with your life? He's like, you don't get married or go to grad school. So I started looking at grad schools and I found a program in women's studies. So then I ended up at the age of 23 starting a PhD program at the University of Washington Women's Studies. Again, it really lit me up in some ways in terms of, you know, developing this intersectional analysis of race and class and gender and all these issues in our world. But something was missing for me, because as I was going through grad school, I was also starting to slowly unpack some of my childhood trauma and therapy. I was also really deeply on an existential quest. Like you talked about your spiritual journey, like what does this all mean? And why is there so much suffering? And like, how do I find peace? And, you know, trying to learning about all these injustices and trying to unpack my childhood. And so I was really, really fortunate that I had a mentor who was a deeply spiritual person, not religious, but really encouraged me to this exploration. So I started things like, you know, learning Buddhist meditation and reading books about consciousness and all of these things. But that was kind of like a hidden part of me in my women's studies program. Right. So it's getting all this like great political and social analysis. But something again was missing that spiritual peace. And, you know, there was a lot of emphasis on like deconstruction and tearing down all these theories. And something started to become kind of soulless for me about that. I found a way through because I decided to write my dissertation on spiritual activism before that became a more popular word, like it is, you know, in some circles today. And then after I graduated with my PhD, I had another point like I did after college, like, what do I do now? Because, you know, it's usually you go into academia. And like that some of that soullessness of academia, I was like, I don't know if I want to do that. So I took a student affairs position at a women's center that didn't quite work out. And then I let myself take a break. And I really encourage this for people if you can find a way to afford it. And I gave up my apartment and I traveled and I lived with different family members. And I was like listening to what is my next step. And through a series of like coincidences and synchronicities, I heard about this opening in women's spirituality at California Institute of Integral Studies. And I feel like the hairs on my arms stood up when I saw the description, you know, it was like bringing in this decolonial intersectional analysis with studies of the goddess and spirituality and intuition and dreaming. And I was like, what is this place? I was like, I was almost too nervous to write my application. It was like, I need this place. It seems like magical. And lo and behold, I made it and my teaching my 13th year now starting. 

Dr. Drake: Wow. 

Dr. Arora: And I hear a lot of people have sort of these like synchronistic stories about ending up at CIIS. 

Dr. Drake: Oh, yeah, I think it's it's it's definitely there because you were even talking about how, oh, there was something you said anyway, I can move on. 

Dr. Arora: We'll come back to it. 

Dr. Drake: It'll come back. But I also want to know, like, I mean, when you talk about how it was, you know, you were in this sort of feminist world and learning all of these great skills, but that you were also learning about the spiritual aspect of it. And I think that that is the piece that drew me to CIIS as well. It's the integral pedagogy and like how you're able to, you know, weave that into both, you know, and it sounds like you were already doing it. So, yeah, I just want to hear more about that. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah, thank you. Well, I, you know, I think the thing about integral education for me is a space where we can take spirituality seriously without forwarding any particular religion or dogma. Right. Because this idea of spiritual education has been there in, you know, Christianity and the foundations of the university and their sort of idea of spiritual development was based on one specific religious tradition. Right. And I think for me, integral education, it's like, we're going to take people's spiritual questions seriously, and we're going to take their experiences seriously, and we're going to make room for that and not just cast it off as irrational. And, you know, we can't prove that, so we're not going to talk about it. But with that openness, and I think there's so few places in our culture where people can talk about religion or spirituality in a way that's like, I'm not trying to convert you. And I'm not trying to tell you that my way of belief is better than yours, but we're just going to have a dialogue about what that means to me. 

Dr. Drake: Yeah

Dr. Arora: Like, what does spirituality mean to me? What does it mean to you? And it's spiritual, but it's also like that psycho spiritual piece, right? Which is the, let's understand how we've been shaped by these different forces, right? By, whether it's institutional forces and structures, but also by our family systems, right? By living in the culture that we're in, right? And to me, integral education is also about seeing the classroom as a sacred space, whether that's a physical classroom or even an online classroom. And what I mean by a sacred space, it's clearly not a religious space, but something special and different is happening in that conversation, right? It's different than sitting around the table with friends. It's different than talking with your family or your coworkers. It's a particular type of space where if you're intentional, there's a certain intention, right? And I think that needs to be cultivated as a sacred space that we're going to honor each other's dignity. We're going to go deep into these mode of questioning and we're going to learn from each other. 

Dr. Drake: I just need to interject because what you described is more than a notion too. And I think that sometimes we talk about that, but I just want to acknowledge that the professors here spend a lot of time thinking about how to cultivate that in the classroom. Trial and error, all the things that you've done in your 13 years here, it's more than a notion to really create a space that can, that there is a saying that you don't talk about politics and religion or whatever like that, and especially not a mixed company, right? But that we try to figure out a way to do that here and make it so that everybody's experience is acknowledged and lifted up. And it's hard. It's not easy because people are not used to doing that. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. There's not, like I said, a lot of spaces for that. And you're absolutely right. We're doing exactly the taboo thing, bringing politics and religion together in very diverse groups. Right. And when I think about that from a feminist and social justice perspective, bringing that into integral education, it's like, yeah, we're taking spirituality seriously and we're taking social and political liberation seriously. Right. And what does it mean to bring that all together? So part of that is seeing like, you know, our religious traditions through which spirituality has been transmitted for generations have been deeply patriarchal. You know, in some systems they've also been white supremacist. Right. And so they've been homophobic. They've been transphobic. They've like perpetuated all of these isms. Right. So like we need to look critically at that. And then also like in my program, women's spirituality, we're also reclaiming the feminine voice, you know, the people of color's voices within those systems. Right. But also I think it's really important to know that many of us will nowadays say we're spiritual, but not religious, which is what I believe for myself as well. I have more of an eclectic spirituality, but patriarchy and white supremacy and all these other isms are also in spiritual, but not religious communities. Right. So they haven't transcended them. And we really need to have that really firm, like clear sense of critique and not just critique, but like creating the kinds of communities where we are lifting up the voices that have been silenced. Right. Calling out the abuses in spiritual communities, calling out the spiritual bypassing, you know, the white centeredness of yoga, for instance, you know, so many of these. Yeah, sort of just like problematics that we're dealing with. Right. 

Dr. Drake: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. And I know that's something that like in your work, it's been like coming into expressive arts and addressing the sort of the it's historical, you know, 

Dr. Drake: Yes, it is definitely it has its very patriarchal roots. And, you know, it's it's been a primarily white field, you know, and I, I am one of the first and few black, expressive arts professors, and certainly chair in the field. And it was sort of mind blowing to me too, because I'm like, this is the language of people of the world. This is the language of people of the world. So how did it get co-opted into just this one little tiny thing? And I think it was the combination of it within the field of psychology, which is also being primarily white, and, and has its own patriarchal roots and things like that. And so it's kind of like this double whammy. And so when I came into the program, I was one of three women of color, and it was just it was almost something it was it was like a taboo for us to even talk about the fact that we were the three women of color, because we were from different ethnic groups. There was a Chinese American woman and Indian Indian woman, and then me and there was not really a place to talk about, you know, our experiences. And so that was a goal of mine, I think, in staying with the program and and continuing on beyond, you know, being a student in the program. And when I began teaching in the program, I, I remember having how this is going to be interesting, because I don't think I've ever had to talk about this in a, in a coherent way. But there was this fear that I had that I was not going to be able to be myself in the classroom, that by me showing up as a black woman in this field, and I had evidence of it, because even just talking about the program being rigorous, I had a student come and, and go to like administration and tell me that I was scaring them from the field. And I was just like, but it is a rigorous program. It's, and it's intended to be that so that people will learn, you know, and that we're trying to, you know, build a sense of excellence. And for me, this also was important, because I was thinking about, you know, people being trained here, and then going out into the community. And what is it if we're not asking people to be rigorous in their thought about about communities and, and this psychological work and creativity. And then you go out into the community, and you're working with, you know, communities of color, you know, folks who have been marginalized, all of that. And so that was really my thing. I was like, you know, if I'm gonna be a person who's here to help evaluate a person's readiness to go out and be with people, I want them to be able to be with people, you know, 

Dr. Arora: You don't want them out there, like, causing all this harm. 

Dr. Drake: And that is one of the tenants of the field is like, do no harm. And that's exactly what had been happening for all of those years. And so I think, for me, it was really, I knew that I needed to be here, I knew I needed to be teaching, I knew I needed to, I, I needed students to see me. Because what I realized was that it was rep, it was the representation, you know, just having me in the classroom, I would have students of color from all different backgrounds, people who had invisible, marginalized identities come to me and tell me, just me standing in front of the classroom was a healing act. 

Dr. Arora: I can see that, 

Dr. Drake: You know, and that was important. And the more I got that message, the more it gave me the courage to come from behind the shadows, and really start to be my full and true self inside the classroom. And then as I started getting more comfortable in being my full and true self in the classroom, it was an invitation for students to come and not have to check themselves at the door. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. 

Dr. Drake: You know, it is important for you to bring every part of your intersectional identity into the spaces if we're going to have these real dialogues, if we're going to engage in the integral pedagogy, which is about us as spiritual beings, like meeting soul to soul, mind to mind, heart to heart and doing this work. 

Dr. Arora: Absolutely. And it's about saying injustice is a spiritual issue. It's not distracting us from the spiritual conversation and the healing work. It is the healing conversation. How can people heal when they're enmeshed in these systems if things aren't being done to shift the systems as well? 

Dr. Drake: Right. Yes. 

Dr. Arora: And you know, there's certain things I can share that are similar in terms of my entry into the Women's Spirituality Program, although I was very fortunate because my predecessor, who I have to give a shout out to, Arisika Razak, who's a retired professor at Maretta now, black feminist, womanist, really paved the way for me to come to CIIS. 

Dr. Drake: And for a long time, one of the few black faculty members here at CIIS and did a lot of the emotional labor. Absolutely. And did a lot of the emotional labor. 

Dr. Arora: To shift the Women's Spirituality Program from a program that was really founded by Euro-American white women about reclaiming their pre-patriarchal European goddesses, that's wonderful work, but that can't be the only work that's being done if we want to have a diverse liberatory community. We have to bring in the stories and the myths and the healing traditions from all the different cultures and have that representation and be willing to talk about race and not just say, oh, well, we're all sisters fighting patriarchy, right? Because there's all of these other dimensions we have to look at. And kind of similar to your experience, I think it was my very first week here back in 2011. We were at a Women's Spirituality Retreat. And there was a speaker there, an alum, and I called out something about cultural appropriation. And someone else actually wrote to Arisika and said, your new faculty member is making the white students uncomfortable. But we're at a place now in the program where I cannot imagine happening that now, right? Because of the work that she did and then bringing me. And then now we have other really, really great faculty who and the students are coming in with more of a consciousness around wanting that intersectional perspective, but still really deeply rooted in spiritual inquiry. Like I said, they're not separate. They're very much together. And I think this sort of segues as we talk about our positions as having been faculty here for a while, but we've also been department chairs, both of us have been. And I do have to say, you're not just Dr. Drake, you're Dean Drake. So what are some of the institutional challenges if we think outside of the classroom, but at the institutional level? 

Dr. Drake: Well, and I think that they sort of you know, kind of go back and forth between each other. So like when I was a faculty member and chair often, you know, we would have situations where students would notice the systemic injustices that were happening just in the act of being a student. And there are times when, you know, policy and procedure sort of get in the way of being able to address some of the issues that might be coming up. And so we would have students who would be like, super riled up and with good reason because we were teaching them how to speak truth to power and to do all of these things. And at the same time, there's this way in which organizations and systems work, which is really slowly. Right? And so there's that, it's that push. And so you're like, well, how do I actually get stuff done? Right? Right. And I think what I've learned over the years with that is that you have to, one, you can't be isolated. You have to find like-minded community. You've got to find your people, find your cohort of folks who also are recognizing the same injustices, things like that. You have to come together and be clear about what it is that you are hoping for. And then you have to be able to engage long-term with the administration or the powers that be or whatever else like that. And you have to stick with it long enough because there were moments. And we talk about this quite a bit in faculty council, like this period of austerity that we went through as an institution, as an organization. And I'm looking at Carolyn Cook, who's our faculty council chair, and she talks about this a lot, but it was hard for us to feel like we could have good interactions with the administration, that we were all kind of in this together. And it's only been, oh, I won't say only, but I think that it's been like people coming together and sticking with it and staying with it, even when it's tough and you think, oh my goodness, it's never going to change all of that. And then all of a sudden one or two changes opens up a door, opens up something new. And I would say that that's even how I came to be in the position that I'm in right now. We got a new president who then hired a new provost who then restructured, created the provost division and restructured some of the deans and things like that, and then created this position because she was one of those ones who was in that circle of people who knew that change needed to happen and took this as an opportunity to make some shifts. So it's not, it's years. It's an institutional miracle. It's years of work, but you stick with it and you have to be able to create good relationships with people along the way, because that's really where it's at. 

Dr. Arora: Absolutely. The bureaucratic struggle is real. And I think it was 12 years ago, so I was quite a bit younger when I started here. And I kind of had this, oh, I want to change fast. And sometimes I think I did things a little too fast and ruffled a lot of feathers. And it's taken me some time to learn that, yeah, it's that balance between not being too patient, because you've got to push against these resistance systems, but also taking the time to build the relationships that are going to allow the change to happen. And I so agree with you. I think the number one thing is finding those like-minded, like-hearted folks, who you can, there's, when I used to live here and work here on campus and the conversations I'd have with people in the hall, in your office, I just had this issue with this student or this administrator or whatever, let's support each other and how are we going to deal with this? Because those of us who are really trying to advocate for a more liberatory approach, we have to have each other's backs around this. And I think the other piece is like coming back to the spiritual is having our own spiritual practice to help me stay like sane, right? When there's like all of these, and then every workplace, whether it's university, corporate, nonprofit, has the struggles, right? And the interpersonal challenges and how do you ground and even like wait for that sort of divine inspiration to act, right? And have that courage to speak from your soul's truth. Yeah. 

Dr. Drake: Yeah. And you know, I think that that's probably one of the most important pieces because it really is about fortifying yourself and sustaining yourself spiritually that for me, I also think about it as a, like a spiritual and cultural groundedness, you know, that I, you know, had to fortify myself to be in this place for a lot of different reasons. I also, and I'm just going to name that coming into the building when I started here was actually kind of violent because look at me, I'm tall, I'm curvy. I'm, you know, I don't necessarily fit in those little tiny desk things. And, you know, and no, it's the, it was  a thing that no one was talking about, you know, right? No one is talking about that. And, you know, I'm coming in and I'm eating my carb, build lunch and everybody's snacking on, snacking on, you know, like, everybody's snacking on leaves and things like that. And I'm like, I don't know how you're surviving on that. I really don't. I'm going to eat this bowl of spaghetti though, or whatever it was, my beans and rice or whatever. I'm just saying, but it was, it, I noticed that it was like those kinds of things that were also in the room and why I needed to show up even as an instructor, fully, wholly talking about taking, literally taking up space. Right? Because this body also does yoga from time to time. And I stretch and I move and I dance and I have, you know, life and wellbeing in this body. And, you know, it, it doesn't necessarily translate across, right? Right. And so it's important for us to be able to be in these spaces, taking up, like having a sense of self that you can then meet with other people, right? You know, similar to you, different from you, creating relationship that has the capacity to make change. 

Dr. Arora: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that embodiment piece. And, you know, and for me as an Indian American woman, it's like, it's an interesting experience being at CIIS, which has Indian founders. And so there is a lot of interest and respect for Indian culture, which gives me a privilege in a way, but then there's also a projection, right? That, you know, oh, like, I, like I must, I do come from a Hindu background, but that's not my area of study or my expertise. So that projection that that must be like my, you know, what I'm doing and what I, what I know about, right? And then also I feel that sort of that obligation as an intersectional feminist to say, yeah, this was founded in an East West kind of program school, but it's not just about East and West. It's also about the global South, right? It's about the creativity of Black folks and like that whole intellectual lineage coming from Black folks in the US and everywhere, right? In Africa and South America and just all global, indigenous, Native American. So kind of breaking out of that East West mindset and making it a really more of a global, diverse intellectual lineages. 

Dr. Drake: Yeah. Yeah. That, that I think is something that we are continuing to do, you know, in, in the curricula and the programs and this in, and thinking about that from the perspective of who are we hiring to teach the classes and things like that. And so I think that that's an important piece because we want to encourage, you know, diversity of thought and experience and to invite these, all of the varieties of spiritual traditions in, because, you know, people are coming from all of those different places. And then, you know, I will say that there was a time in my life when I was really needing to like push even further, go deeper. And I was in the, the place of reclaiming African traditional religion and like pieces of it for myself. I'm not like, you know, initiated into Yoruba traditions or anything, but I needed to know what it was about and doing that self study and understanding it for me and how to bring it in, in a, in a mindful and meaningful way. And I, and that was important to me and it gave me even more of the cultural and personal grounding that allowed me to, you know, I feel like welcome even more, you know, welcome the students even more to each part of you that you develop helps you see more, you know, the world and the pieces that are not being brought in. And it's like this constant idea of being able to fold into the center from the margins, you know, fold into the center, fold into the center. 

Dr. Arora: Really well said. And I would say too, that there's something, it's not just a political imperative, but to me it makes the work so much more interesting to like learn about, oh, there is this myth in the South American culture or this other color. And I see parallels to my culture or differences. And it's not about trying to extract from those cultures, but just like learn, right? Like there's so much more to learn when we brought in that scope, you know, and I mentioned earlier about, you know, this university being founded by folks from the Hindu Indian tradition, but there was also caste privilege that they had. And I've been just like in more recent years trying to come to grips with like my own privilege as someone of a privileged caste, right? Which I grew up in the United States. I didn't, my parents, we never talked about caste. I didn't know what caste I was. And then I was at one point, I was like, that's just like being a white person and saying, you know, I don't come from a racist family. And there was never talk about it in my family, but it's like, but that privilege still exists, you know? And I think in the coming years, that's a conversation I hope that we have more, you know, as more and more South Asians are coming to the United States, they're bringing that, unfortunately, those hierarchies with them, with us. Yeah. And then there's a lot of like, mean, I think it's also politically really interesting to learn about like how a lot of the Dalits, the oppressed castes in India have learned from the African American liberation movements. Right? 

Dr. Drake: I have seen that on social media, actually. And it's really, really amazing. Like I'm talking about like, especially around like skin tone and sometimes the hair is curly and all of that. And it is, yeah, I was actually really surprised to see how much overlap there was. 

Dr. Arora: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's like these things that we think are just more recent conversations. It's actually been happening for decades and generations, you know, conversations or somehow information from different oppressed groups around the globe. Like learning from each other's struggles and seeing that they're different, but they're also linked and there's parallels. 

Dr. Drake: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. 

Dr. Drake: Yeah. 

Dr. Arora: But coming back to kind of shifting gears just a little bit, because we did talk in our planning about like strategies, right? For those who are listening, whether it's in a classroom or an institutional level, like what do we do to bring together the taboos, right? And work to shift consciousness. 

Dr. Drake: Yeah. So what would you say are like, yeah, strategies that you like to use? 

Dr. Arora: You know, it's an ongoing process, but I think we already touched on one of those, which is relationship building and like creating, like we're talking about at a classroom level, right? Like really intentionally cultivating that sacred space that we don't have to always like each other. We don't always have to agree with each other, but we're agreeing to be in this conversation together and to learn together and grow together and really have that strong community foundation. And I think so much of it too for instructors is being willing to model that vulnerability, right? And our own ways where we still struggle. Right. And where we haven't figured it all out. Right. And the mistakes we've made and the challenges. I think that modeling that vulnerability and that transparency is a big part. 

Dr. Drake: And that's actually pretty liberatory also, because academia in and of itself is very expert centered. People come here because they want to be a part of the world. And so, because they want to be, and people often get into the field of academia and being a professor, because they are an expert in their fields. But in that, that expert centeredness can sometimes be the block. Right. It can be the block towards relationship building and things like that. It's about also having, what I have done in that realm is say I have expertise in a particular area and that I am a co-learner in the environment and I am teachable. I am teachable. I have to be teachable always. Because I don't know everything. Half of what I know, actually over half. Let me just be honest. I'd say I can own maybe about 25% of it. And then the rest I learned from my students. 100%. 

Dr. Arora: I can totally, I feel that my own experience as well. And it's like, if we're not teachable, how are we going to expect our students to be teachable? Right. 

Dr. Drake: And we have to model that to step out and learn from them so that they can know that they can learn from us and each other. That's also a big piece. 

Dr. Arora: So absolutely that vulnerability, that transparency. And also, I think that we have to be really mindful of who the most vulnerable or marginalized people in the room are. Right. And so. 

Dr. Drake: It may not always be visible. 

Dr. Arora: Yes. Yeah, that's a really important point. Right. And so we're not like allowing the space to be taken up by, you know, folks who say things like, I don't see color or like if we're all one, why do we have to talk about sexism or racism? You know? And at the same time, I think a big part, I think what people, what allows people to learn and grow is if they feel that their pain is being listened to, you know, and I see that sometimes in the classroom of folks who say, you know, like, how can I start having empathy for a different group struggle when I'm still in pain, even though I might on paper look like I have privilege, I'm in pain. So there's like this balancing act between listening to and acknowledging that pain and suffering and then bringing it back to, we have to look at what's happening also on a systemic level. Right. And it's individual, but it's also the social, political wider construct that we can't get sometimes out of our own pain and our own ego until we're listened to. And then we can start to like, okay, now I can listen to you. 

Dr. Drake: And that's one of the, I feel like that's the beauty of a lot of what we do at CIIS is that we create opportunities for students to learn about whatever the subject matter is by creating relationships with each other. Right. That we, you know, intentionally put, you know, students together and dyads or small groups or whatever. And then you'll end up making a friend that you had met in a million years. You would have never thought that this would have been your bestie. And they are, you know, because you met on like this kind of spirit and soul level through the act of listening to each other. And I think that that for me, it goes hand in hand with relationship building is the deep listening and openness, you know, not going in with a preconceived idea, but just being open. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. You know? Yeah. And also like the willingness to lean into discomfort, right. Our own as educators, but if we're not ruffling some feathers, right. And making people a little bit uncomfortable, one of the best comments I got from a student evaluation was that like, she pissed me off just enough. 

Dr. Drake: The optimal level of it. Where is that? 

Dr. Arora: Which is kind of a little bit intentional with what I said about sort of like meeting people where they are, but at the same time, like knowing when it's time to like push, you know, and be like, we're not going to learn and grow if we're not at times uncomfortable. Yeah. Right. Which is why now a lot of times the conversation is shifting from safe spaces to brave spaces. 

Dr. Drake: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And I'm going to say something that might be a little opposite of that, but I, it's a phrase that I, and I don't know if I am the first person who's ever said this, but this is how I think about it is that I like to engage in honest compassion or what's the phrase it's called. People say like, oh, brutally honest. And I like to be compassionately honest. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. 

Dr. Drake: You know, I'm going to tell you the truth. You're going to hear it 100%, you know, but I'm going to do it in a way that holds a sense of compassion for who you are as a human being. I'm going to stick in there knowing that you've got your, you know, intersectional identity and I have mine, but this is the truth about this particular thing and you need to know it. 

Dr. Arora: Right. Right. And I don't think that's an opposite. I think that's really like a, 

Dr. Drake: Maybe it goes hand in hand. 

Dr. Arora: It's like a balance, like it's like an art, right? Because, and I think even with sort of pushing people, if you, it's the way that you do it, do you do it with respect with like actual deep respect for that person? 

Dr. Drake: Yeah. 

Dr. Arora: Right. Or do you do it from a place of condescension? Right. Which as people have often experienced in academia as well. And that has a completely different outcome. I would say. 

Dr. Drake: Yeah. I mean, because it, that is actually the root of like cancel culture. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. The condescension, 

Dr. Drake: And like, oh, you should know this already and we should be at this particular level. And it's like not everybody is and like have some compassion for the moment when you weren't. 

Dr. Arora: Right. Right. And there's all kinds of privilege even within that of like not recognizing that people are different generations, different subcultures, different access to, you know, the educational spaces where these new words are used. 

Dr. Drake: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And because the language is changing all the time, every day, all day. And so, you know, that's something that, you know, you just have to give grace. And I like to, that is one of my strategies, giving grace to myself and to others, because you have to be able to have this, you gotta, I mean, we're just all here trying to do our best. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. Right. 

Dr. Drake: I'm just doing my best, you know? And so we have to give each other some grace at some point. And usually it starts with yourself because I think we're often hardest on ourselves also. And if we make a mistake, you know, let's say you, you are the reason the rupture happened. Right. How do you give yourself some grace in that moment and say, I didn't know, I would like to make this right. I might fumble it, whatever. And so one of the things that I do in terms of giving myself grace in the classroom that I think is, that demonstrates to students how it can be done is I start off by saying, I'm not going to get this right. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to say something that is incorrect. I'm going to say something wrong. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to fumble it. What I need you to do is to be in this relationship with me and tell me what I have done that was, thank you, that was incorrect or whatever. Let me learn, help me to learn. And that's the act of being teachable. Right. And when, when I do that, it is I'm doing it specifically so that I can cultivate a mistake making culture. 

Dr. Arora: Yes. Yes. Yeah. 

Dr. Drake: That here is the place where we can come together and we can do our best and we can try and we can make mistakes and give each other grace. And, you know, maybe I'm holding onto it for a little bit, cause I haven't sued. But, you know, I also learned that you can, you know, just sit with something and see what it turns into that you don't have to act right when you think you should. 

Dr. Arora: Right. Allow the seeds to plant the seeds and you let it go, you know, water them, but then you don't know, right. When it's going to sprout. 

Dr. Drake: Right. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. And I think when you talked about like how we can be so hard on ourselves, that's part of the internalized oppression, right? And so the way that we relate to ourselves is part of like unhooking from these white supremacist patriarchal systems. And for me personally, that's been some of the deepest work. Like when I first started on the path of women's studies, learning about systems of oppression and how, you know, our society says that women have to look a certain way. Like, yeah, yeah, I'm empowered by this knowledge. And then I remember, you know, when I was going through my graduate program at some point being like, yeah, but I still hate my body. Like I'm still trying to lose all weight and trying to look like something else. Right. So that wasn't deep enough that intellectual knowledge of what the system was doing. It's like, there has to be a deeper level for me of that spiritual work of self-love. Right. And healing. Right. And learning to define yourself 

Dr. Drake: for yourself. Yes. 

Dr. Arora: Yeah. 

Dr. Drake: Yeah. Self-definition. 

Dr. Arora: And I don't think the revolution won't be finished until we can do that. You know? Thank you all so much. 

Dr. Drake: Thank you

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Izzy Angus, Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, Nikki Roda, and Pele Shalev. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities. 

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