CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

[Cheerful theme music begins]

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

The I Ching, also known as The Book of Changes, is a 3000-year-old Chinese divination text. Many use the I Ching as a tool for life guidance, spiritual practice, and ancestral connection. It is a revelation of metaphysical philosophy, epistemology, and ethics, as well as a book of occult secrets.

In this episode, celebrated occultist and scholar Benebell Wen is joined by certified professional tarot reader, creator, and author T. Susan Chang for an illuminating conversation on Benebell’s historic new translation and annotations of the I Ching which brings the power and mysticism of The Book of Changes to our contemporary world.

This episode was recorded during a live online event on February 15th, 2024. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

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T. Susan Chang: Hello, Benabel. 

Benebell Wen: Hi, Susie. I'm so excited. 

T. Susan Chang: This is amazing. I was just saying to Benabel before we came on the air that we literally saw each other less than four weeks ago in Florida and we were at the time at a tarot conference drinking funky Buddhas. But tonight here we are.

Benebell Wen: And having dinner. 

T. Susan Chang: That's right. That's right. We're having tea and sparkling drinks. So first of all, just for fun, I just want to talk quickly and remind us that we are talking about Benabel's amazingly comprehensive book. It is incredible. It is full of history, methodology, interpretation, you know, correspondences, everything you could possibly want. And it is amazing. And I've been loving it this entire week. So I'm super excited to talk about it. Just very quickly, if there are those of you out there in the tarot community who have never seen us in person before, we thought we'd give you a quick guide as to how to tell us apart. 

Benebell Wen: We get confused for each other all the time. I can't tell you how many tarot conferences, especially if I have glasses on in the mornings. I'm coming down the elevator like, oh, T. Susan Chang. I'm like, I wish I really wish.

T. Susan Chang: So embarrassing for everybody and we feel bad and it's awkward. So but it's understandable that you can confuse us because we're both in the tarot world. We were both born on the East Coast. We're both ABCs, American born Chinese. We're both born in the year of the rooster. Even more weirdly, we both had musical childhoods. We're both total nerds. We both have major placements in Aquarius. My Moon, your Rising. We both. Yeah, we both do a lot of tarot stuff. So, you know, we're basically are the same person, but in order to distinguish us, Benabelle's much more youthful. Benabelle is also a pseudonym and T. Susan Chang is not. Benabelle has a real day job as a lawyer. And I like teach and write and do all sorts of kind of whatever I want. 

Benebell Wen: Because teaching and writing are not real jobs. What?

T. Susan Chang: Benabelle speaks Chinese. I famously do not, but I do sort of speak ancient ancient Greek. Benabelle has like a million Libra placements and I'm like the flaky Pisces rising. So now you've got it. You're all set. So let's get to talking about you and the I Ching. First of all, I would love to know what your relationship with the I Ching was when you were growing up. 

Benebell Wen: I think my own impression was always boring book of poetry that doesn't make any sense. And I couldn't really make heads or tails of it, but I saw my mom and dad using it growing up. And I thought what was really interesting was the polar polarity of how they approached the I Ching. My father treated the I Ching as a cultural relic. This is one of the most important books to being Chinese, to being Han, to being from the yellow river civilization and that idea that it's a cultural relic that we have to honor and venerate and its philosophy, its spirituality and it's actually ancient psychology to a sense. And then my mom treated as a medium for communicating with God's spirits and ancestors. This idea of this is our tool for staying connected to all that is beyond in the spirit world. And so having that balance has always been part of how I've approached the I Ching. 

T. Susan Chang: And it's just always been around. 

Benebell Wen: Yeah, it's always been around. 

T. Susan Chang: So in a sense, I mean, the book has been in the making your whole life, but when did you start actively working? Well, I guess when did two questions, one, when did you start actively working with the I Ching yourself? And two, when did you start writing this book? 

Benebell Wen: So I would say technically in college when I started taking Chinese classes, you know how you really wanted to, I was in Chinese school throughout my entire childhood, but then you really decide, you know what, I'm going to take learning Chinese and becoming fully literate in Chinese seriously, both traditional and a little bit more in the simplified Chinese when I was in college. And so one of those little personal projects to prove that I could read Chinese was to try to translate the I Ching and work through the I Ching. So that was something I started, but I felt like I really didn't have any depth of anything, life experience, wisdom, knowledge of any other subject matter that you would need some at least surface level knowledge of in order to really have cultural context for teaching. And then I think around actually the full complete annotations were done before holistic tarot. And I just sat on it because I kind of felt really insecure with putting it out there because there was that question, why do you need another translation of the I Ching? You know, and so I think I was very hesitant to put it out there. Who am I to write this book? And then it wasn't until I think after a doubt of craft, I started feeling a little bit more confident. And I think we know how Asians, we do overkill, right? So I think I overcompensated. I was like, well, let me just like do an insane amount of research, go to China, go to be like, get all of the, all the things and really sit down. And then I like, if I'm really sitting in research then I feel a little bit more confident about putting my work out there. So that's how the final text happened in 2023. 

T. Susan Chang: That's amazing. So, you know, when you looked around at all the other I Ching versions and additions there were, what was it that you most wanted to see that you wanted to that what gap did you want to fill by doing your own version? 

Benebell Wen: Probably something it's going to be a very Libra answer. I think, I think just balance finding the middle path, because I think what you see out there, right, you have, it's either an unverified personal gnosis or it's, you know, ivory tower academic rigor and it's treating it as, you know, just a very academic treatise of the, of the text. Or you have a native Chinese person who may, who's doing the translations, but may not have as strong of a grasp on, you know, English language sensitivities to really do the English translation justice because they're speaking English as a second language. Or you have somebody who's speaking Chinese as a second language where they don't necessarily have the Chinese, especially when the sort of the cult contacts and the cultural sensitivity sensitivity that a Chinese native would have. And so for the first time, the hyphenated experience of being Asian American, right. Was perfect. And then also you have either they're an occult practitioner or they're an armchair occultist and just finding that middle ground between the two, I think was why I finally decided maybe I can write this book. 

T. Susan Chang: Not only that, not only could you, but you actually are kind of the perfect person to do it. You know, 

Benebell Wen: Still to be jury is still out on that. 

T. Susan Chang: It was your fate. It was your fate. So, you know, I guess I, I, I'm curious to know, you know, when you are, you're famous in the tarot world, of course, for having written holistic tarot and you've done an enormous amount of keynote speaking at the conferences. Everybody knows, Benabelle for tarot, 

Benebell Wen: As have you. 

T. Susan Chang: And, and so I want to know, you know, when you're in need of divinatory services, do you turn first to the I Ching or do you turn to tarot? 

Benebell Wen: If it's a question that I would ask a friend for advice, I'll turn to the tarot. If it's a question I would ask family for advice, I would turn to the I Ching. 

T. Susan Chang: Oh, that's so interesting. 

Benebell Wen: I don't think that's like a universe. I wouldn't use that as like advice for everybody. I don't think it's a one size. I think it's really specific to our cultural experience and life experience that that's why, cause you know what I mean? Like, I feel like tarot is the American, it's like my Western upbringing. But then I think the reason I turned to the I Ching for questions I would ask my family members is because of that cultural connection. So I don't think it's like this advice you would give as one size fits all. I think that's just something really unique to, well, not unique, but like specific to having our cultural experience. 

T. Susan Chang: That makes sense. Okay. So, so let's talk a little bit about the book itself, a lot about the book itself. It just occurred to me, what is the hexagram on the cover? 

Benebell Wen: Was it 30? I think it was that fire over fire. I can't remember off the top of my head. I remember because- 

T. Susan Chang: I'm sure there's a reason for it is what, what, what occurred to me. But more importantly, you know, the I Ching is known as the book of changes. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about why that concept of change is so central to this work. 

Benebell Wen: You know, I, you know, the word E right? So I went into a database of pre-Qin, Qing Si Huang. So Qin dynasty is a very sort of important milestone. So pre-Qin texts and the database of all pre-Qin texts that use the word E and, you know, I got more than 5,000 hits back and I was going through it to try to get a summarize, summary or synthesis of what the word E meant in context. So I could understand why this book was called I Ching, right? I Ching. And so it's interesting. It does mean change, but I think when we think of change, I don't know what the necessary, the Western perspective is, but in terms of how we're viewing it, it's exchange. So there's a cause and an effect. And so change means something has to happen for it to then move. So there's that, but then there's also the internal change. There's this stillness on the outside where there is no motion or notable movement, but the change is happening within. And so that's what E means. E is also used as a virtue. So it's often used in the context of saying you want to have this as a virtue and the virtue is to be like water, to be fluid. So that's where that word comes in. It means, you're right, it does basically mean change, but it is to change within the scope of your own nature. And if you read throughout the text of the I Ching itself, many of the passages kind of keep going back to that theme of, you know, not doing anything and staying within the scope of your nature, but then within that scope of your nature, being heavily active and still changing. 

T. Susan Chang: Interesting. And that there's a notion that everything is always in change. 

Benebell Wen: In change. In flux.

T. Susan Chang: Everything is always in flux. There's no, there's no stasis. Right. Okay. So one of the things that I was really interested in learning a little bit more about was the idea that there's these, you know, two different schools of thought in terms of interpretation, that there's the image and number versus meaning in principle, which reminded me a lot about various debates we have in tarot. But I wonder if you could do a quick sort of, you know, rundown on what those are for us. 

Benebell Wen: The image and number lineage. So the image and number school, I think of that as just metaphysical correspondences. That's the easiest way that I can think of it, right? It's in a way, it's also scrying into the actual literal image that you see. And so one of the really interesting things right there that you immediately see is a difference in philosophical approach to what we'll use, right brain, left brain, or like logic versus intuition, because you don't think of scrying in the same sentence as an analytical, like two, two correspondences, right? Because correspondences feel like you're calculating something and then scrying feels extremely intuitive and fluid. And yet in this particular school, you're merging the two and saying the two are somehow related. 

T. Susan Chang: And that’s really fascinating to me. 

Benebell Wen: Like the Western mind cannot necessarily grasp that, but that's how we're lumping it together. So it was this idea of just working off the actual 64 hexagrams, looking at the line changes and what the line changes mean, understanding the implications of a dark line versus a light line, how that works, what the, what the trigrams symbolize, all of that goes into how you interpret it from an image and number perspective. The other one I think of as literary criticism, Ili Pai. So this idea of, well, what did the experts say? What did the Confucian scholars have to say about this text? What's the history of what this text says? What are the author, what are the authoritative voices? 

T. Susan Chang: More talmudic 

Benebell Wen: Exactly. Oh my gosh. Yeah, absolutely. And then you look at the line text itself. So now, instead of looking at the visual, you know, the, the, the actual hexagram, you're looking at the line text associated with each of the lines and reading that. Well, how was this historically and culturally, you know, interpreted it? What, what does XYZ, what does Wang Bi say about this? What does this person say about it? And that's how you then arrive at an interpretation. 

T. Susan Chang: Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah. Because we do, at least in the tarot world, we, we kind of created distinction between correspondences base, which is like, you know, five of cups, it's like Mars in the first decan of Scorpio, et cetera, et cetera, versus it's, oh my God, there's this guy who's really sad and he, you know, who, who's standing there on this card and, you know, and I have an intuitive feeling about that. Whereas it sounds to me as though, you know, you're, when you're talking about image and number, that's the more intuitive one actually, versus meaning and principle being more like literary criticism, more like using secondary sources to like bolster an argument. Really interesting. 

Benebell Wen: Even when we use the word intuitive, it's like, it's, it is intuitive because of that scrying aspect and it's like reading clouds, you know, it is kind of open-ended, but at the same time, because you have that metaphysical correspondences element to it and each school of thought has pretty fixed immutable, you know, you know, collective sense, consensus of what they mean, consensus reality of what those correspondences are. It's also calculated, but then we don't, we don't say if it's a calculation, then it's not intuitive. I think we don't have that, that, that disparity that you do see in Western perspectives. 

T. Susan Chang: Right. Right. That's fascinating. Well, to go on to another sort of famous dichotomy that, you know, people, practitioners like us love to talk about, fortune-telling versus divination. What's your opinion about the difference just generally, and also specifically in the context of the I Ching? 

Benebell Wen: I think what's interesting is like I've said in the book that my mom and I disagree, you know, on what, I mean, she basically thinks divination and fortune-telling can be used interchangeably. She doesn't really understand why I cannot describe myself as a fortune-teller. And I go out of, I take great pains to say, no, no, no, what I'm doing is divination or it's psychology based, or it's, you know, I really feel like she thinks that I'm weirdly allergic to the word fortune-teller, but she says, what you're doing is fortune-telling. And I don't know why you don't just own it, but then I don't know. I, I make a distinction between divination and fortune-telling, but then again, because there is that disagreement, I think to each their own. So I think that's a great caveat. 

T. Susan Chang: So in your mind, what is that distinction? What is fortune-telling? 

Benebell Wen: Fortune-telling to me is a skill. It's like musical ability. Most, some people have an innate inborn ability or psychic gift more so than others, but anybody who puts in their 10,000 hours can absolutely elevate their skill and ability and proficiency with fortune-telling. I think of fortune-telling as coming from the ego, not in a bad way, but it's myself. It's my own personal ability. It's something I'm capable of doing that I'm putting into the work. Whereas divination, I see myself more as a vessel. So first of all, because I'm a vessel, I have to be a particular kind of vessel. So now suddenly we're talking about, you know, making sure I'm aligned in a particular way when it comes to astrological timing for when the vessel is being used as a vessel. The vessel has to be clean where the vessel is placed matters. The phone, you know, all of these things matter because I'm kind of downloading in a sense, or I'm transmitting something that's beyond. And so the ego has to check out because they're almost, is this concept of a possession that's happening. And that's where, right? That's where the power and ability or the knowledge is coming from. And so to me, I feel like that's a huge difference, at least in terms of where the information is coming from. So because I have such a big distinction between how that information is retrieved, I do make that distinction between fortune telling and divination. 

T. Susan Chang: Interesting. You know, I don't personally have a problem with being called a fortune teller because I think it's campy, but I do have a problem being called a psychic. And I think it's similarly, you know, people have expectations of what that means. And I don't want to fight with those expectations or get people confused. So, you know, although I do also agree that everybody has psychic abilities, everybody can do this work with, you know, with a little bit of effort and commitment and interest, you know. So, yeah, I think it's a fascinating question, really. And I also think that, you know, when you talk about how you have to be in a particular state of mind, you have to be, you know, and your circumstances have to be right. I think that that's something that people often miss about those of us who do oracular work. You know, most of it is getting out of the way, you know, and making yourself a channel or a vessel to, for whatever it is to come through. And actually it's not about you and your glamour as a psychic or reader or whatever. It's really more about what's coming through you and what's helpful to the person you're trying to help. 

Benebell Wen: Yeah. And I think when I'm a fortune teller, I feel like I'm taking up space, like the feeling that I'm occupying space. That's the feeling that I get. Whereas if I'm serving as a diviner, I feel like I'm checking out as much as possible. And like the work that I'm doing is to check out as much as possible and to let the possession happen. But so that's why 

T. Susan Chang: I think it makes a lot of sense, actually. Yeah. Actually, I'd like to talk a little bit, since we're talking about, you know, this between the worlds kind of stuff, let's talk about shamanism and magic a little bit, shall we? So I don't really have a, in fact, I have zero sense of classical Chinese shamanism in any respect. So, you know, you have to be my guide here. But one thing I wanted to know was sort of like how the I Ching sort of relates to other magical practices and divinatory practices like wuxi and, you know, and Taoist magic. And can you just give us sort of a very quick two minute overview of what we're looking at here? 

Benebell Wen: So first, the word when we, the word we're looking at is wu, right? And it's a particular, like, you know what it looks like. It's a very specific word. And then there's many different types of variations and derivations of that word and how we use that word. But wu is the most important and how you translate that becomes contentious. And so it is often translated to shaman. And that's the word that we use because I think there are certain, like a checklist of things that we look at when we think of what the characteristics of an wu is. And then we're like, oh, this seems to match this loan word over here, shaman. So let's just use the word shaman. 

T. Susan Chang: It's what we've got. 

Benebell Wen: Exactly. Sometimes people say witch, wizard, sorcerer, there's so many words out there. And I think it gets really complicated. But then if I say wu, I won't hit the SEO metrics because nobody knows what that word is. So I have to use the word shaman to get eyeballs on my work. So like, there's that transparency, but like, yeah, wu is the word that we're talking about when we say this. And in terms of the importance, especially cultural importance, Li Zehou, who is an I Ching scholar, he had said that the two most important aspects to the Chinese identity is one, the clan system, or the idea of clans and family clan, family name, and two, the shamanistic historical origins of our people. And so there's this idea of that, you know, King Wen, Wen Wang, all of these yellow emperor, Fuxi, they were all shamanic kings. And so the  first leaders of our people were shamanic kings, and you had to be a shaman or have shamanic abilities to even be king. Because if you can't speak to God, how the hell can you lead your people? So obviously, you need to be a vessel for the divine. That's where the idea of heaven's mandate came from. You speak to God, that's why you can lead your people. And so it's so integral to who we are as a people, it's in our DNA that there's this idea of a select few who can speak and commune directly with God and these spirits. And so, and also when you look at how wu is used in context and all of these Pre-Qin texts, the form of divination used is with stalks. So there's a song, dance, and ritualized rites involved of some sort. And then there's all of these things you have to do to make sure the spirits and the gods are present. And then you use some sort of dried sweet grass or grass or stalks to do the divination. And there are two types: either you used oracle bones, tortoise shells, or you use these stalks. And that's, I think, where we get this idea of using stalks and gerostalks in the divination method for the I Ching. 

T. Susan Chang: Yeah, it seems like a really clear connection when you look at the evidence. Yeah. Speaking of King Wen, Bennebel Wen, is there a reason you're Bennebel Wen in particular? 

Benebell Wen: This is where I, okay, I can't wag my finger because you're older than me and so I have to respect you because we are still Asian. 

T. Susan Chang: It's okay, you really don't have to. 

Benebell Wen: But like, it is so obvious that you don't know Chinese. 

T. Susan Chang: It's so obvious. Oh my God. 

Benebell Wen: Okay, so Wen is actually my Chinese name. It's my real Chinese name, Wen. But the character is Wen Nuan, like warmth, tenderness. And then King Wen, Wen Wang, is the Wen, meaning like arts and humanities, language arts, or that's the word. So it's two totally different words. But in English, we translate it to W-E-N. So it does look like it's kind of just like a fluke that I wrote a book on the I Ching, but technically in Chinese, it's totally different characters. 

T. Susan Chang: Excellent, excellent. Now we know. Fantastic. Okay, so one of the things I love about this book is like, you know, it's not just, you don't just teach us how to do divination with the I Ching, but you also have all these practicum exercises scattered throughout the books, like, you know, homework, worksheets, things we can do, like, you know, to actually feel like we're learning and developing and not just have to freestyle our way through this book. And many of the practicum exercises in here are what I would consider magic as opposed to divination, you know, because there's ritual involved, there's material involved, there's invocations involved. So, you know, in the context of the I Ching, what do you think, where is the divide between divination and magic? What's your thought about the role of the I Ching in those two sides of kind of the same coin? 

Benebell Wen: You know, it's interesting just in terms of growing up in that culture, especially in southern Taiwan. So for example, if I went to get a divination, there would be magical elements immediately in tandem adjacent to the divination, because after you get the divinatory result, they would give you actionable items to do, or you would need a talisman, or like, you know, you're possessed by like a demon or something, and so you need to be exercised. There's always this like magical component to the divination. And so in my mind, I never really like separated the two out into like opposite ends of a room. It just seemed like once you did divination, you would receive insight as to what's going to happen. Divination is taking the temperature of the room, right? Like kind of like looking at the barometer of some kind. And then once you know what's happening in the world around you, and you have a more panoramic view, past, present, and future, you got to do something about it. And so there is, of course, I think in the modern day, we think of it more as self-improvement. We have to do something for ourselves. A more traditional view would be you have to do magic, and you have to be active. So once you see what's happening in the world, there's probably something you don't want, like something you don't like, something inauspicious. That's when you have to bring in magic in order to rectify what's inauspicious. So it's always, has always been hand in hand to me. And if you go to like any part of Asia and get a divinatory reading, especially from those who are really immersed in specific lineage traditions, it's not going to be just a divination. You're going to get a divination, you're probably going to get like a prescription of magical things that will, that you need to do or buy more of. And we can get into like fraud, right? Like that's definitely an interesting question, but yeah, there's going to be like a magical component after the divination. 

T. Susan Chang: Yeah. In fact, you know, some of the spells that, that, that you talk about, I was reading the Eight Immortals section yesterday and it was like, this looks a lot like hoodoo. I mean, it's like, you know, it's so simple. I mean, I think it's just the commonality between magic, you know, across cultures, the fact that there is, you know, there is a material basis for it. There is a, a building up of energy for it. There is a, there is an intention that's involved. And of course, as innumerable Western magicians have said for as long as there've been magicians, it's the art of change. So all of this seems very familiar. One other thing though, that comes up is the idea, well, I almost hate to say his name in the context of this conversation, but Crowley thought that the I Ching you mentioned was powered by spirit intelligences, as opposed to something, you know, more abstract and a causal like synchronicity. So, so, so, so to what extent do you think it's useful to think of the I Ching as a vehicle for contacting spirit, spirit or spirits? 

Benebell Wen: You know how they, we make that distinction. I see a lot of this, oh, you know, the Yang-Yin approach is to see it as synchronicity. Synchronicity is the explanation for why divination works. It's this idea of two things that seem unrelated happening, like a coincidence of some kind that you observe. And it's like proof in the, like, it's proof that there is something in the, in like in an intangible spirit world and the physical world aligning. And that's the reason it works. And he talked about it as being a causal and therefore it goes, it's outside the scope of cause and effect. And so synchronicity is outside of cause and effect. And then he uses synchronicity to justify how the I Ching works, but then the I Ching change innately is implying cause and effect. You may not know what that cause and effect is. It might be a very abstract past life. There's many ways that we can talk about cause and effect, but everything, at least according to I Ching theory, is fundamentally cause and effect. So I thought that was really interesting. 

T. Susan Chang: Yeah. But spirit intelligences though, what's your take on the idea that we're contacting spirit intelligences when we work with the I Ching? 

Benebell Wen: I mean, I think it's to each their own. I feel like I am. I've never gotten the sense that I wasn't. And so even when I went the approach, you know, in your twenties, you're like, oh, magic is not real. Even when I was like, oh, this is just psychology. This is just self-improvement. I'm just reading into it using self-reflection. I think even then, when I was so deeply anchored in that way of thinking somewhere in the back of my head, I had that sense that, oh no, no, no, I'm like, there's, there's another presence. I've called something here. I've done something to call something present. And that presence is what's kind of operationalizing everything. I've always had that feeling, but it is a religious perspective. It's not anything that's concretized. 

T. Susan Chang: Yeah, It's, it differs from person to person as well. I mean, anyone who does this work cannot deny that there's a change in the atmosphere and how you parse that or what you call it is almost, almost arbitrary. But, but I would like for you to maybe give the lady of the nine realms her due, explain who she is, why we might want to invoke her as a magical spirit. 

Benebell Wen: Well, Zhou Tianxuan was, she's, she's someone that I feel very close to. And I guess the part that I left out of the book is she's why I wrote the book. She's why I published the book. She's why I made it a two-part book, which is one part discourse, one part practicum, why it's also layered with one part cultural context and the other part is the actual annotations. So it's like two by two. So it's kind of like bifurcated laterally and bifurcated vertically to have that sense of a cube. And like everything that I did in it and even like which practicums to put in there, how to, how I was guided toward everything. Like all of it for me was because of Zhou Tianxuan. And it was that sense of her being an emissary for Xiwangmu, the Queen Mother of the West and how these have always been sort of the go-to goddesses and patron goddesses for occult practitioners and Taoist mystics. And so I think that's the connection there. If you're into Taoist occultism at all, then I think you would on some level be, she would be your patron goddess. 

T. Susan Chang: Isn't that interesting? Well, well, okay. So let me ask you a little bit about this question. And we've touched on it a little bit of I Ching's relationship to the West, generally speaking. And, you know, I mean, I think the quote I liked best, and I'm sort of showing my cards here, is one that you wrote on page 230, where you said, “I emphasize that the I Ching is universal, transcending culture and history available for anyone and everyone to access.” So I just wanted to ask you to expand upon that a little bit for anybody who feels, you know, queasy, as people often do about people from different places using a text that clearly belongs and originates in one place. 

Benebell Wen: There are actually really interesting debates and conversations about even that culturally, where does the I Ching belong? Because it was from the Zhou dynasty. Who were the Zhou people? Were they Han? Because that's not an easy question to answer. So who were the Zhou people? Zhou is kind of like an empire, in fact. Zhou was the unity of multiple tribes of people. And they were very, very different. Even when you read the text, they always talk about how different these people looked. And so why it was so great is because they united these really different people that were at war for so long. And so when you think about that, who does it belong to? Why is it someone who looks like us now saying it's culturally ours? And so I think that's a really interesting question to have. I don't think anybody can say they own it. And even if you take it from a legal perspective, legal philosophy, political philosophy, at some point, something becomes public domain. And so I just have, you know, applying that idea at this point, it's public domain. 

T. Susan Chang: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And would you just for a moment in your, you know, in your best Chinese pronounce I Ching for people, just those who have felt slightly unsure or nervous about it? 

Benebell Wen: I Ching. 

T. Susan Chang: Yay. 

Benebell Wen: But then I don't get worked up about how you pronounce it. Because if you think about even in different languages, Japanese, Vietnamese, they pronounce, there's like different words for it. They use their own wording for it. And so, and even Taiwanese versus, because I was asking my dad, how do you say I Ching in Hakka? Like, it's so different. 

T. Susan Chang: How do you? 

Benebell Wen: I Ging. 

T. Susan Chang: Do you remember? 

Benebell Wen: Yeah. I Ging. Yeah, it's I Ging. Wow. And I remember that, you know how I remember the pronunciation, the har gow. So I was like, oh, har gow. I Ging. It's like ordering food from dim sum. 

T. Susan Chang: Everything revolves around food. 

Benebell Wen: Everything is food for sure. But like, yeah. So I, you know, when you're speaking English, I say I Ching. I don't suddenly switch to Chinese and go blah, blah, blah. I Ching. And I say yin and yang. If I'm speaking Chinese, I say yin yang. But then like I still say yang when I'm speaking English. 

T. Susan Chang: Just the same way we say taro instead of taho, you know? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have to have a little bit of latitude. Mm-hmm. Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. So let's get into, I want to make sure we get into actually using the book because this of course is the heart of the matter, how we can avail ourselves of all your hard work. So first of all, methodology. You offer in the book several different approaches to using the I Ching, the coin toss method, the yarrow stalks method, even a grain of rice method. What's your view in terms of like, are they all equally effective? Does it matter? 

Benebell Wen: Um, I think one way to answer that is yes. I think so because what's meant to be will be, and I do believe even though it's all equal access, I do believe the occult technologies gatekeep themselves. And so to that extent, you can do whatever you want to do. If it's not meant for you, it's not meant for you. You can kind of be a little bit more effortless. If it's your parent, they will always be sympathetic and lenient and liberal with your own child. If you are a child of this particular spirit, you're given a lot more latitude to be an asshole. And so I kind of feel the same way when it comes to the I Ching. So if it's meant for you, it's meant for you and you can use any method at all. For me, I find that there's something about the yarrow stalk method because it is like, even if you look at how you do it, the mathematics of it, every single number in that concept in the process itself is deeply meaningful to the process and to the cultural relic itself. And so for me, it helps me change state of consciousness in a way that is almost methodical. Whereas if I'm using ritual or ceremonial magic, sometimes you're in it, sometimes you're not, but I find that there's something really accurate and reliable about the 50-stalk, 49-stalk method where as long as I follow that path, something happens to me. 

T. Susan Chang: And something happens to you in the sense that you feel a shift of consciousness in a way?

Benebell Wen: Yeah, I think it's also the visual way you do it where you have to pull it apart. You're taking one bundle, you pull it apart. There's one that's the ego or the wu, right? So you have to have that significator. So you already have a significator stalk. And then the idea that you pull it apart and then how you have to put one down where you have heaven and earth, and then you're connecting heaven and earth. And then even that looks like the character for wu shaman. The formation itself looks like the word for shaman. And then the way you do it, the fours, every aspect to it is so carefully thought through by our people, if you will, that I just find that just doing the thing that my ancestors and my ancestry has done for at this point almost three millennia is what I think is why I can change states of consciousness. 

T. Susan Chang: Mm-hmm. I love that idea. And I think also because it's so time consuming. It forces you to really, I mean, it gives you time for the transition from one state of mind to the other, whereas if you're just, I think if you're just tossing coins, which is a lot faster, it's over and it's done. I mean, I have that problem with tarot all the time, which is that it's so easy to get an answer. You literally just flip a card and you can look at it in five seconds and think you know what it's trying to tell you when quite often there are further layers that it would be worth your while to consider. So I also like the way when you walk the reader through the Yarrowstock divination, you point out that each time you reorient yourself and revisit the question and kind of align yourself again. And I think that that's incredible to have that built into the process. Yeah. So do you ever personify the I Ching? I often will say tarot says, according to tarot, and I don't know exactly what I'm doing when I do that, but I definitely sometimes feel that there's a personality that I don't know whether I project it, create it, whatever you want to call it, about the cards. And do you do that with the I Ching?

Benebell Wen: I would say absolutely. To the point where, I mean, it's become in a way a third parent. The way I approach my relationship with the Oracle, it's very similar, I would feel, to how I approach my relationship to a parent or to like an ancestor that I see in front of me or like my grandmother. If I were to be in the same room as my great-grandmother right now, how I approach my great-grandmother is kind of how I approach the I Ching. I definitely personify it. I feel like sometimes if I'm not putting my all in it, I will kind of get shushed by the Oracle. Sometimes you get these really tough love answers. It just really does not mince its words. It's not like the tarot where sometimes you can kind of read a love and light, happy, positive, and optimistic patina from the reading. Sometimes the I Ching won't even let you do that. It's like, very like, ooh, ouch, like what? And so you get these readings. But then to be fair, I know that sometimes in the depths of profound grief, when I really need someone there for me, the tone has been nurturing and helpful. And so that's how I feel like I perceive for sure there's a personality because it knows exactly when, okay, she really needs me to be there for her. So I'm going to be there for her. And when she's being a little, she's being a little, you know, a little whatever. So I'm going to put her back in her place. And so I feel like I do get disciplined by the Oracle. 

T. Susan Chang: That's really, that's really funny. And I think true to the experience for any of us who do oracular work. Now, what about formulating a question for the I Ching? Like, you know, when I, when I tell people who don't have any experience with tarot to formulate a question, I have sort of a base formula, which is like, what would be useful or helpful for me to know about whatever the thing is. Do you have sort of a base formula for a question for the I Ching? 

Benebell Wen: The traditional perspective, because I think it is different, right? I think today we have a softer sensitivity around these things, but then I think a more traditional perspective and actually a more native practitioner perspective would be so two parts, step one, ask, you can ask anything. There's no holds barred. There's this conceptual, theoretical idea that you can ask any question at all. Also be careful what you ask. Do you really want to know the answer to that? Right? And so there's this idea of, there's no sense of like, these are the rules for how you frame a question. You can ask your question and frame it however you like. But at the same time, I think over the centuries, we have these schools and traditions that have built up guardrails and codes of conduct around how you can approach questioning the oracle. And that really varies depending on the tradition that you're looking at. But we have guardrails for, oh, some, some traditions, some schools will say you can never ask about death and life. Others, obviously, especially in Chinese culture, fortune tellers were always like, when will I die? You know? And so it really depends on what tradition you're approaching the, the I Ching with. But yeah, I would say that's the traditional approach. Be careful what you ask, but you can ask anything. There's no parameters around how you must frame your question. I think in today's world, I think asking a more open-ended question is how we, because of how we've been socialized, can better induce self-reflection. And I think that self-reflection then induces a particular state of access to consciousness that can draw down something or pull up something that you otherwise were not as aware of. So that's why I think it has changed over the years, but it's more because culture has changed over the years. 

T. Susan Chang: Yeah. So you feel that a more open-ended question is more suited to a modern sensibility, I guess. 

Benebell Wen: Right. But then also, I think more Western modern sensibility. I think if you look at Eastern fortune-telling traditions, they ask like, yes or no, auspicious or inauspicious. Like, it's so specific, right? What will my husband look like? You know, so it's, it really depends on the culture. 

T. Susan Chang: It really does. And, you know, we, we here in this country, in the community, you know, in the divination community are very, very used to open-ended questions and people being, you know, open to that. And, you know, I just remember the first time someone came to me and was like, will I get a 90 on my nursing exam? And I'm like, what? But, you know, for some, depending on where you're coming from, that's a completely legitimate question for the oracle. 

Benebell Wen: So. And I would actually say, if you read the text of the I Ching, it seems suited for yes or no questions because so many of the verses are auspicious to proceed, inauspicious to proceed. So I'm like, okay, this seems like it's implying you would ask yes or no questions. 

T. Susan Chang: Yeah, it does kind of. So let me ask you a little bit about what, how do you hope to see people using this book? You know, people, and I'm, and I guess I'm thinking, because I hope that this book sells millions of copies and makes it deep into the mainstream. So I assume it's going to find people who have never used the I Ching before. And where would you suggest that they begin? 

Benebell Wen: Where would they begin? I think it depends on what you're interested in. And so, for example, my husband, James, you know, so he really was not interested in the divinatory aspect, the oracular aspect. You go at it with that approach. He's not interested in the I Ching. But then he read my chapter on the cultural, the cultural context and the history of what happened in our, in the Zhou dynasty, the Shang and Zhou dynasty, that battle that the I Ching was born out of. And when he read that chapter, he was like, oh, that's really interesting. And then now he was interested in the I Ching as a cultural relic. And then other people are like, I'm really into psychic phenomenon and mysticism. So I really want that aspect of it. And so I think it really depends on what you want. And I hoped to write a book that had a little, like had a gateway or an entry point for no matter how you wanted to approach it. And I think the reason I did that more particularly was because I wrote this book after I finished writing this book, I know what I felt. I finished writing the book. The research was, wow, I'm really proud of being Chinese, of being Han. Like I'm very proud of my culture and my heritage, which I can say I didn't always feel at every point in my life, especially growing up in this country. And so knowing how I felt after knowing like my culture produced this, you know, and so I hope to be able to give other Asian Americans something that they can feel that same way that that pride that I felt after I finished this book. 

T. Susan Chang: I'll let you know. So, yeah. So, well, let's imagine Asian American or not. Let's imagine that you're someone who just wants to start right away, get their hands dirty, start doing divination, get some answers to your pressing problems because everybody's got them. Where should they start? Should they go turn straight to the divination, you know, to the divination methods section? Should they get some coins? What do you think? 

Benebell Wen: Even simpler than that. I say use it as bibliomancy. You see that part that's shaded, that's the actual text. Present it, use it as bibliomancy, and then use that as the entry point into a rabbit hole. I think, yeah. 

T. Susan Chang: So the shaded part of it is where all of the definitions for the 64 hexagrams are. 

Benebell Wen: As simple as you can do it. And then how did that feel? What did you like, did that open up your curiosity? And I think from there, we become very self motivated to find out other answers. And then, okay, once I've done that, well, what's the traditional way? I think of that as tarot. I think the first time I used a tarot deck when I was, you know, what, 12 years old, I wasn't following, I wasn't doing the opening of the key. You know, I was just pulling a card and looking it up in the little white book and making up my own answers, but something in me clicked because if it's meant for you, it's meant for you. And then you yourself will be driven to find ways to learn the more traditional methods or go as deep as you want to go. So I don't have like, I don't chart out anything for anybody. I think just go at it and then find your rabbit hole. 

T. Susan Chang: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a huge book, obviously. And you're saying, I don't have to read every page of it from beginning to the end. 

Benebell Wen: No, not at all. It's like, it's more of a reference book.  You know, I hope that's what.

T. Susan Chang: Use what You Need.

Benebell Wen: There's multiple entry points. 

T. Susan Chang: That's perfect. That's perfect. Okay. So, I want to take you through a reading that I did this morning or asked for your advice about a reading I did this morning or this afternoon, rather, with Yarrow stalks, which were given to me by Mel Moline, the the the wonderful debt creator with whom we both know and love and who was my podcast co-host for a long time. Anyway, she had given me Yarrow stalks from our area, like for my birthday a few years ago, and I rarely use them. And I thought, now is the time. This is the day. And so unfortunately, I noticed when I was like, consecrating them and taking them out and being nice to them and everything that I only had 49. So so I got a stick of incense to use as the 50th one, which seemed kind of appropriate. 

Benebell Wen: Perfect.

T. Susan Chang: So so the question that I asked, because I wanted to come up with a question that was not just about me, but like, which I thought would be helpful to many of our listeners. And I thought, well, we are living in a time when there's multiple sources of anxiety, you know, whether it's, you know, war or whether it's climate change or politics in the country you live in or COVID or you know, there's all these things that are likely to make us anxious in one way or another. So this year, 2024, I said, what would be helpful to our listeners who may be experiencing political slash geo-political, you know, existential anxiety in the year 2024? And after a good 45 minutes, because there was a lot of like recounting and not being sure I did it right, I finally did come up with with the hexagram, which which was hexagram 31, which is now I can't remember which what is over what, but you probably know. 

Benebell Wen: Yeah. And lake over mountain, 

T. Susan Chang: Lake over mountain. Yes. Uh huh. And and then two of the lines, lines four and five were changing lines. So the the hexagram you would then that it would be transformed into two would be number 15, which is earth over mountain. So what can you tell us about the answers that I received? And what what can we take away from it? And when we face this year with nerves and anxiety? 

Benebell Wen: So the approach you went with how I would how I would read it, I focus on line four and line five and use that as the connecting point, almost a common denominator, the the pathway between the two hexagrams, and you have to, so because it's the book of change, you're reading the change, change is the most important aspect, like you said, and so what you're reading the divination is the change. And I really like this opportunity to kind of show how like Chinese fortune telling might differ from a tarot reading. So in answering that question, using those hexagrams and how their trigram correspondences and the wuxin correspondences of the trigrams and how they change, especially we're lying four and five in the context of it, there I would say there's four actionable items, actually six, six. So the first one I would say, okay, so what this is saying, when you have the hexagram 31 mutual accord, the idea of alliances changing into hexagram 15, the idea of modesty, Qin, there's a state of dormancy has been going on for far too long. And so now you've become complacent to that state of dormancy, and now you need some way to get back out into reality. And what's funny enough, so line five has a famous Chinese proverb that that Quan Qi Mei Quan Qi Mei means avoiding reality. So when you use that idiom or that proverb, it means you're avoiding reality. And so it's really primary. This is line five of hexagram 31. And so it's just really interesting to see that that's sort of the implicit idea of it. And then when you 

T. Susan Chang: That really tracks. 

Benebell Wen: I know, right, isn't it? And so it's this idea, okay, so now that you're in this change, this stasis, how do you get out of that idea of all that earth energy, all that balance, but it's dormancy. So how you get out of it is divide and conquer this idea of division, you need order, you need discipline, because metal, the idea of metal is one it's music because you have the metal instruments, but it's also violence, unfortunately. So there's this idea of the sword, but it's also about cutting, like if you think of the cardigan in Buddhism, the sword also cuts away ignorance, it cuts away what no longer serves. So there's that idea of that sort of the metal that comes into play. And then because it's that earth correspondence that was dominant, also something very simple as between the hours of 7am and 11am, because that's the ascendant hour that corresponds with earth, intake of more nutrient dense foods. So just between 7am and 11am, that's when you should be focusing on more nutrient dense foods to nourish your body. And if you start from that, everything else will kind of fall into place. And so that's how Chinese fortune telling works, whereas you don't necessarily see this kind of prescriptive divinatory readings when you approach a western perspective of divination. 

T. Susan Chang: So like if we all stop intermittent fasting, and being hangry at 11am, we'll be nicer to each other, and perhaps world peace will result. 

Benebell Wen: Exactly. You can still do intermittent fasting, but there's this idea of that one ascendant hour in the morning that corresponds with earth to have, that's when you want to focus on nutrition and treating your body as like an incubator and making sure all the nutrition that your body needs happens during that morning hour. So that's very interesting. Save, I think because of the correspondences that you see here, it's really good for love and marriage. So focus on love, marriage, and alliances. Alliances and partnerships are where you should adjust your mind in terms of reducing that anxiety. And what is probably not a good idea because of that, because of some of the elemental, I use the word elemental dignities to explain how we look at the alchemical correspondences here, but because of that, you know, anything that has to do with wood and fire is not that great. And so for example, high risk financial investments, extremely like ambitious undertakings for this year is probably not a fantastic idea. And so avoid high risk, be more safe, safe, safe, fiscally be more conservative. But when it comes to being your heart, be more open and liberal with your heart. So like alliances, love, relationships, that's a good thing to focus on to reduce that anxiety. 

T. Susan Chang: Excellent. And so is that all based on hexagram 31 correspondences? 

Benebell Wen: And 15, because you're reading them together. So you would want to do the synthesis of the two. 

T. Susan Chang: Yeah. Wow. Okay. That's good to know. And it's really remarkable that there's that much information based on correspondences that you can extract from them. But, you know, supposing that someone doesn't want to go, you know, or it doesn't have the skills to go that deep with the reading, you know, is it valid and appropriate, would you say, to just sort of like, go in there, read what there is and just take whatever seems useful and relevant out of it? 

Benebell Wen: Absolutely. So for example, we can do that right now, looking at the line text. So if we begin with the primary hexagram 31, right? So line four, it's essentially it's about overcoming imposter syndrome and cultivating conviction and confidence. So there's this idea of the anxiety is coming from a lack of confidence and imposter syndrome, like you've been dormant for so long, you don't actually know if you can socially engage again, you don't know if you can do the things that is out in the outer real world anymore, because you haven't had to for too long. So there's some kind of cognitive dissonance is happening, and we don't feel like we have. And so that would be very actionable in terms of just overcoming imposter syndrome, finding the way to nurture and develop your skill of confidence. Confidence is absolutely a skill that you have to learn how to actively develop. So develop your confidence. And that's how I would read that. Line five is kind of another search. This is when I kind of felt like it's kind of yelling at us and not being as kind. It's saying that our behavior is not lining up with our intentions. There's a disconnect between our speech and our actions. And so as a collective society, the Oracle is saying, you know, what you say you want and what you're doing are not lining up. So, you know, the bad things that are happening to you are kind of on you right now. So what you will not to blame, but like, you know, I mean, this idea of, well, go back to yourself, truly reflect on are you part of that collective that has a dissonance between your action and your words, or are you going to be the exception from the rule and actually align your intention and your actions. So what you say you want, are you actually doing actions that reflect what you say is your intentions or what you say you want. 

T. Susan Chang: Is there integrity? 

Benebell Wen: Integrity, absolutely. So there's that concept of the primary hexagram. Then you move on to lines four and five, and you just read the line text for the secondary hexagram, hexagram 15. So there's the idea of, oh, so don't be, you know what's really funny, because if you think about the consecutive order of how you would read it, you just read line five of hexagram 31 that basically said your behavior is not lining up with your alleged intentions. And then line four of hexagram 15 is don't be offended when you've gotten schooled. Isn't that interesting? Because they say like, don't get offended or get defensive when people are calling you out. So, because that's kind of the vibe of line four of hexagram 15. And then line five, the actionable item to take away from the final reading, if you see collective suffering, then assert and do something positive about it. See something, say something. Because if you read the line, the translation, it's if your neighbor is not prosperous, then you're not prosperous. If you're not prosperous, your neighbor is not prosperous. The implication being see something, say something. You know, we all have to lift each other up. Don't just lift yourself up. Don't just be, don't just navel gaze. If you truly want to lift you up, then you have to lift your neighbors up first. So, focus on other people. Focus on the greater good. And in that, you know, in that as an incidental benefit, you will be lifted up as well. 

T. Susan Chang: Those are wise words for everyone to remember and to act on as well since, you know, the taking the oracle is only the first step, right? After that, we have to act on it. Guys, this book is phenomenal, as you would expect of anything that comes from Benabel. But if you have any kind of curiosity about the I Ching, this definitely belongs on your bookshelf. I recommend, I don't even know if it comes in an ebook, but I would recommend the hard copy because it is something you're going to live with, you're going to want to have around, you're going to use as a reference. So thank you so much, Benabel, for putting this out into the world and for being here with me this evening. It's been wonderful. 

Benebell Wen: Thank you, Suzie. It was my pleasure. Absolutely. 

T. Susan Chang: Thanks, everybody.

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

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