CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

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[Cheerful theme music begins]

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Historically, the field of sexuality research in the United States has not included the experiences and wisdom of racialized sexologists, educators, therapists, or professionals. Instead, sexuality professionals have been trained using a color-free narrative that does an injustice by both excluding their work as well as failing to offer a fuller examination of how they expanded the field and held it accountable.

In this episode, educator and sexologist Bianca I Laureano is joined by Founder and Executive Director of Sacramento Peers on Prevention Dr. Ericka Burns for an illuminating conversation highlighting the voices, experiences, strategies, and solutions from sexologists that have been excluded and yet have still emerged as vital contributors to the U.S. and broader North American sexuality field. Bianca shares insights from her recent collection, The People’s Book of Human Sexuality, a futuristic textbook that offers a significant shift in the way we learn and understand sexuality by featuring an expansive array of past and present leaders in the field committed to liberation, healing, equity, and justice.  

This episode was recorded during a live online event on June 5, 2024. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

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Dr. Ericka Burns: Thank you so much for that wonderful intro. I don’t know about you, Bianca but  hearing that sometimes you have to remind yourself, you know, who we are sometimes.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Right, it's so true. 

Dr. Ericka Burns: How are you doing?

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yes, I'm good. It's so good to be here with you. I love seeing your face.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Same. I'm really excited for this conversation. I know we talked before, but I have to say publicly on the World Wide Web, I'm such a fan. And I'm so glad that you chose me to have this conversation with you. And let me tell you, I already told you, I've gone through this book, highlights and everything, snacks all between the pages. So I am very, very excited for this conversation.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Awesome. Me too. Me too.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Nice. Well, I want to get us started in really just kind of the how, like what was the development process of this book? Why create this book? And we can

start there and then we can add on to it.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yeah, absolutely. So I submitted the application or book submission during the pandemic. So it was 2020. And, you know, it took me six months to write that. So I just I like to start there. So people know it did not happen overnight. It took me a while. I had the information before the pandemic even started. And so that just slowed it down a little bit more. But it did take a moment for me to pull it all together. But the conversation that I had with the editor at the time, who was a young white woman, she's probably like in her early 30s was, you know, what book do you want to write? And I was like, I really want to write something that is kind of like a throwback to like our childhood where we had like access to encyclopedias and people could just pull a volume and be like, let me read about the bees. And so I imagined an vision, something like that, where it would be this expansive archive with updated volumes and completely new information. And so she, you know, she was like, let's start with one. So I told her, I was like, I also wanted there to be embedded some lesson plans so that people know how to teach and have conversations and do activities around the content of each chapter. And for that reason, I was like, I imagine it as like a textbook of the future. So I knew what we were creating four years ago, what I was pitching five years ago, was still going to be so forward in the ways that we think about texts and the ways that we think about learning from texts. So yeah, it took me a while to pull it together. But I think it's also important to share for people who are in the writing process or thinking about a book, that what I submitted, probably like 75% still accurate. Like there's stuff that just didn't make it into what I submitted or things changed. But yeah, the goal primarily was to get the brilliance from people in our human sexuality field, who are all people of the global majority, who have never been invited to publish, and yet have been doing the work for decades. And so I intentionally went to people who were like, what, you want to write with me? What do you mean you want me to write a chapter? And who were interested, but also probably need a little bit more support and care in the writing process. So yeah.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Because I think when you go through the book, it is very, for me, like, yes, there are other lesson plans, and we can go into that later, too. As educator, I'm such a fan of the lesson plans. I was like, yes, we need to break that down. But we get to have intimate conversations throughout the book. A lot of folks are bringing their personal experiences. And I do want to definitely call out, which is called out throughout the book, when you mentioned how things change, the biggest thing that changed was COVID. And a lot of folks, there is a really, really good section with the conversation with you and Saifa about grief. And that kind of showed up throughout the book. And I'm curious on what you pitched five years ago, what was happening during the process with you, your writers, and how folks were navigating grief and the change of COVID, how it affects this book.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yeah, you know, it's so important to also highlight that, like I said, these were people who just didn't have an invitation to the table, to the writing space. They knew about it, but they just never saw themselves immediately in that space. And so it's a very exclusive environment, right? And the publisher is an academic publisher. So reaching out to like community educators and scholars and activists who were not celebrated in the academic setting, that I knew was going to be different and new. And so the care that really went into not just selecting people, but honoring people's yes or no, or maybe throughout the entire process, I think is really the important component that I learned about when it comes to creating a culture of consent with other people. Because I reached out to several people and some people were really quick to respond because again, this was pre pandemic and other people took a while. And some people were just like, I can't do it. I'm really flattered, but I just can't do it. And other people were like, absolutely. Yes. Others were like, let me think about it. And some people just didn't even respond. And maybe they did like eight months later, I was like, we have already started. Next time. And so I knew that we would need to create not just organization and cohesion, but also some transparency about what's my role as the editor, what's my relationship to the editor at the publisher, what's the information I can give them. So this is not a traumatizing experience. So knowing how the academy has traumatized us, and also protecting them a little bit from any of the stuff that might bump up against it because of the academic publisher. So we did some really traditional stuff when the pandemic started, such as writing hours. So I would have like writing time with them. And I would send them like reminders and invitations that it was drop-in. If you wanted to do what you would do it. I encourage them to write anything, like just put anything on the paper. It doesn't have to be full sentences. Just get your ideas, get an outline. And also like don't delete anything. If there's something that you're thinking about just added, but make it a running list of ideas and concepts that you want to bring in. And then we did like editing together. So I met with them one-on-one virtually like on a Zoom platform. We went through the articles and chapters that they were contributing to. And then we also did work through like the Google suite. So we used almost 100% free resources to build this. And it was great. So we would talk in the comments of a document, or we would spend some time together talking through it. And through that process, a couple of people were like, I can't write this. Like, I know I said yes, but I cannot write. I need to back out for a variety of reasons. And so that was sad. And also it's part of the honoring people's consent and know, and also representing like the sustainable approach to doing this work. So there was that that happened for some people. And then for other people, they were just like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm having a hard time writing. I still want to contribute. But I don't know what to do. And with those people, the block or the capacity issue was really more like they didn't want to do it alone in many ways. So with those people, we hopped on a Zoom, we turned on the transcription, and we had a conversation. And so the entire third part of the book is really from the Zoom transcription. And either we kept it as a conversation, so like with Saifa and Juan, or the contributors turned our conversation into their chapter. So that was what Bina and Nakia did. And you know, they just all of them have such important contributions to share. I was like, there's no way I'm letting Nakia not talk about this in the book. So yeah, so it was a lot of like care, a lot of time. I asked for two extensions. It's not a publisher. I think that's important to say. I think a lot of people like worried about the timelines and it's like, life happens. And just telling them every single step of the way, this is what's going to happen next. This is the information I'm going to get. You know, this is how I'm going to communicate with you. You don't have to do anything right now or you will in a moment. So really organized, like I built an archive for this archival project. So yeah, yeah, I can keep talking, talking, but I want to pause.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Oh no, I mean, oh yes, drink of water. No, I really appreciate that. It really just sounds like you created a space for people to learn, to grow, to explore for folks who may not have published anything for the first time. This is their opportunity. They may have, you know, inspired a writing bug in them. And I have to say just, you know, that type of care is rare. You know, sometimes you're invited and then it's just like, I have a deadline, give me your submission. And then I'll never see the edits until like a week before you got to look at the edits and then publishing. You're like, oh, okay. Yeah, this is, yeah, I guess this is what I wrote.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Exactly. It's like, there's such a disconnect really from what you write. And I've been in those situations and you know, every editor has a different approach. So not to like diss anybody that I've worked with before, that's how it worked for them. And it worked for me in that space. But I knew that I wanted to do it differently. I knew that I wanted to be guided by this like, enormous feeling of love and respect and care for like just the tenderness that we deserve that we rarely ever get. And just because of the way that I know that people have treated us in this field and the way that we really have been disregarded and silenced. And that's the reality for all many of the participants, is a lot of them were silenced because people were just like, we don't want to hear it in their classrooms, in their training programs, in their supervision sessions with people if they needed to get licensure. So all of that, I think, played a really big role in the reason why I chose the very hands-on approach that I did. And it wasn't about not trusting people. But I knew that like these individuals said yes to me because of our relationship, right? Like they said yes, because they trusted me. And I'll be honest, like I didn't get a lot of money. Like, you know, I didn't make money until after the book was done. And then like a year, half a year selling. But the money that I did get upfront, I offered to the writers. And I was like, I can offer you this little bit of money. You can take it, you can tell me to donate it, or you can put it back in the pot where other writers, I can split it among the writers who do need the money. And so instead of offering people like $50, which is what it started as, I was able to offer, you know, some authors $150, $200. That felt a little bit better. But there were people who were like, I'm saying yes to this, and I don't need the money. So, you know, do something else with it. Give it to somebody else, donate it here. I think that's a really important and powerful piece that really speaks to the collaborative approach and the ways that people reminded me of the way that I was doing it. And the ways that people reminded me, like what the author in the second chapter, Jadeline, you know, talked about, I was like, I just was really embarrassed to ask you to do something for $50, right? Like, I would never tell any of my people do it for $50. Yeah, and Jadeline was like, Bianca, but you let us say yes or no. Like, we knew and we said yes. And so that was our choice. You know, you really want to invest in this culture of consent. You know, like not take our choice away by making an assumption that it's too little money. You know, you didn't take that away from us. You reached out to us. You offered it to us. You let us say what we wanted to do with it. And that was a really helpful, powerful reminder that really helped me, you know, just ease whatever felt bruising and disrespectful about not being able to pay people for their labor.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Right. No, I definitely understand that. And on top of that, I have to say, I just think you just take care of people. And I just think that's so important. Like, I know that we talked and you said that you were happy that I joined. I was like, what do you mean? That's a hell yeah. Like, sign me up that I could speak with you, have this conversation. Don't even ask, put my name on the list. That's fine. Because I think that the care that you have shown with different educators and different folks in the field, it's you're helping plant seeds and you're seeing them blossom and then you cultivate it and you made this wonderful book. And it does feel painful that when we talk about the lack of pay, the lack of notice, the privilege that it is to publish, the privilege to get our voice out into certain spaces. It's like, we don't get a lot of opportunities, but you gave folks an opportunity. So I do want to give you kudos on that and how you took care of folks and that's needed in this work. We need more of that if we can.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's one of those interesting things where people are always like, so I'm child free by choice. And people always got my life and like, but you should have babies, don't you want to have a family blah, blah, blah. And people finally stopped when I turned 40, 6 years ago. But I feel like this is the stuff that I want to nurture and raise and care for. It's other people's brilliance and other people's opportunities to really not have such the hard time that I did. So when I thought about like, oh, who do I want to have be with me in this conversation? Like who would really want to enjoy the experience, but also who do I think would give people an opportunity? Like this is a real privilege space for people to be in. Like, you know, we're two homegirls talking about our work in this field that has been a challenge. And so, so yeah, so it's something really deliberate about choosing people that had connections with CIIS and also knew the field and were also people of the global majority. And you know, you're a Black femme and so those are all, you know, I'm a Black femme supremacist. That was a very easy choice too. And you know, with your work being a faculty member in the Human Sexuality Doctoral Program, that was also important for me to bring in that knowledge. And your experience being an alumna from that program as well. So yeah, so it was a super easy decision to have you at the top of the list to reach out to.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Why thank you, you know, I'll do anything. I actually do want to pivot on that as we're talking about the institutions. And you probably, I think it was, I think my count is at three or four when you quote, white spaces have never been safe for us. When we're thinking about institutions, even CIIS, you know, we're here to have an honest conversation. But for the most part, across the board, I mean, these institutions are primarily led by white folks. Faculty are mostly white. The scholars that we read are mostly white. Sometimes it takes courage to be like, hey, don't forget this, you know, say, are these new scholars or new ideas that come out? And as, as we look at that, reading some of the passages of people's experiences of harm, whether it was sexual harm, racial violence, it's a lot of stuff that is packed on to that. So I'm curious in, in reading, knowing that, knowing where we're at in this position, you have the lesson plans. And the lesson plans will primarily be taught in primarily led white institutions. How would you want your work to be translated in the way that you are intending it? You know what I'm saying? So I'm curious about that dynamic in, and how we make, we make sure that, that the lesson plans and, and you know what I'm saying, all the work is being translated in a way that makes folks feel supported and safe and seen within the work.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Absolutely. You know, it's one of those things that I shared with you a couple of weeks ago, where like, you're like the second wave of scholars who are trained with degrees in human sexuality, who are then being hired, whether it's adjunct lecturer, professor, whatever, status in those programs. Like there was a wave before you of people maybe five years younger or around the same age. And so it's very new, you know, like I couldn't get jobs unless I went into like traditional programs, like sociology or psychology or urban studies or whatever it is. And so that was new and different. And so I went in knowing, the people who are be hired in our field, the people who are still there, who are full professors, who are probably not going to leave, whether they have a merit of study or not, those are all primarily cis heterosexual white people, and many of them women. And so I knew that it was going to be white women who wanted to teach our work. Many of them do want to be in solidarity with us, but they don't always get it right. And so what are the ways that we can offer not just white people in the academic field, but also like community educators who are just starting their career and they have all they have is a, you know, a library of people who are going to be in the library. And they have all they have is a, you know, a library card. They can go to the library, get this book and be like, let me learn how I can talk about guiding people through a meditative process. What are some ways that I can bring in my yoga training to help people connect with the earth? You know, those are all just a taste of some of the lesson plans and activities that are throughout the chapters. And I think that was the really important part was not just one group of people, but acknowledging that there are people who do use this and need it. And what are the ways that we can make it accessible for all of them to do the work that they know they are called on to do and want to do it well. And so I would say that maybe the lesson plans are probably one of the harder parts for some of the authors because some of them had never written a lesson plan before. Some of them were like, just exhausted. They were like, how about you draft it? And then I'll like edit. And that was how a lot of it went primarily, but, you know, everybody was very clear about this is what I want people to teach about this. So I want us to talk about, you know, what feelings sound and smell and feel like, not just talking about what it looks like. I think that was really a part of the social emotional component of weaving that in throughout every lesson plan, but also the fullness of each participant when they wrote and each contributor as they wrote their piece, because they are very much from a first person perspective. And I think that's important, you know, it's also deeply rooted and founded in like feminist process, right? It's a very feminist theoretical approach to do standpoint theory. It's a black feminist approach to say you get to theorize based on your lived experience. And so we definitely are using many of those approaches. It's also just the legacy of storytelling and oral histories that we find, not just within our cultural communities, but also even within the movements that we're a part of. So like reproductive justice very much centers storytelling. And so, you know, for people who are like, oh, that's just like a, it's just an elective book, or that's just a book for like, the, you know, whatever the class that's not that important. I want to be very clear that like, this academic publisher for a reason, they didn't just, you know, grab me and say just write whatever you want. They kind of did, but I knew that there had to be a foundational component. And I know how other books are written in our field, and they are not like this. They're not written like this. They don't tell you clearly what the framework is. They don't tell you clearly how it's connected to a legacy of other brilliance and other forces for change and resistance. And I wanted to make it really clear, like this book belongs in ethnic studies, this book belongs in sociology, it belongs in human sexuality, but it also belongs in gender studies. Like it fits in so many ways, in many ways, it's a shapeshifter. And, you know, so now it fits in library sciences because it's an archive. So, you know, thinking more expansively about where the book can be and how the contributors really demonstrate the interdisciplinarity of our field was really, really important because there's some people who are like, human sexuality, that's great. And they just want to study like biology and psychology. And I'm like, but if you're forgetting the anthropology, you know, if you're forgetting the poetry, like are you really doing human sexuality if you don't even know the songs?

Dr. Ericka Burns: Right, the arts and yeah.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Yeah, no, I love that. I think, and I think a lot of folks hopefully y'all have read the book and if not get it some little QR, but I think a lot of people will get that. And I think what people miss, especially with textbooks, everything has to be around data, quantitative, we forget the qualitative, we forget conversation. And culturally, conversation is how we pass on history, how we pass on stories. That's how, honestly, we have survived, right? And so I think this is, I think, and we can talk about why you chose to do it in three parts. We could get into that right now, because I know at the end, there is beautiful conversation that is happening. And it's still, it's still data for the data folks, it's still relevant, you know, it's still, it's still me has its same heaviness as any part of a textbook is not just because sometimes we're just stuck in theory, we forget the practice, we got to know how to do it, how do we apply this. So I'm curious on how you took the three parts and how you decided to build those three parts and then end on a conversation.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's interesting that I know so many people who go through like education programs, whether they're academic or certificate or like therapeutic ones or education. And they're like, I learned all this information, but I don't know how to practice it. I don't know how to do therapy. I don't know how to teach a lesson plan, you know. And so that practical element was something that I really wanted to fill in the huge gaps that exist in exists still in our field. And so when inviting people, so looking at the people who said yes to contributing, it just was a very easy understanding of like how to bulk them together and bunch them into sections and then all the sections they flow into each other. And we intentionally, you know, I chose to have the chapters to be standalone. So someone, you know, opens the book and they're like, wait a minute, I don't want to start with the first chapter. I'm going to go straight to the sex worker and what she has to say and what her lesson plan looks like. And so I think those are important to highlight that like we intentionally did it as a non-linear book. Right. So it's not like, oh, if I skip to page 300, I'm going to miss something. No, that's how traditional textbooks are built. But with this one, we're like, no, no, no, you can start anywhere. Go to Canada, go to Mexico, like, you know, say somewhere in the US. It's a very North American text, which I think is also important. It's not just a US based text. It's really all of North America. And so thinking about just the repetition. So you had said, like, you say often like those white spaces aren't safe for us. They weren't built for us. Of course, not going to be safe for us. But that repetition is part of like my educator approach. Like we have to repeat ourselves in certain ways if we want people to really get the point that we're trying to share. And I think that's one of the reasons why I say that so much. But also the first chapter or the first sections are about safety and care. And so really bringing in our approach to building the book together and our collaborative goals for how we talk about safety and how we don't just view it as one person's responsibility. It is a collective responsibility. And so, you know, you and I are not the only ones to make sure that this is a quote unquote safe environment. It's also the participants. It's also the background crew. All of us are here to make this experience. And I think those are the really useful ways to think about like the safety piece. And so that's one piece that really stands out for building that first part. The second part, I think it's called movement for our body minds. And that one was where we really bring in the really specific and what people will consider traditional activist experiences. So we have people who never want to work in the academy and who are literally offering social education in their communities and doing it better than some evidence based curriculum. And we know that in our communities. We know that's how it works. So inviting people to talk about those experiences while also recognizing that like people read our bodies. So we don't have the privilege of like navigating a space and not worrying about what we're wearing. You know how I mean now is like how our hair looks. All the pieces where people racialize us. They look at our tattoos, the way we adorn and decor our bodies. They make up stories about us. And so I knew that. And I've known that. I'm six feet tall. And so knowing I'm towering over students when they're seated, that feels really like a power move for many people. So just being clear about like that piece, but also recognizing that our bodies are going to change. We are in changing bodies. And I don't know about you, but I've been so mad at the way that I was trained in 1996 to think about bodies where they're like, oh, puberty is the only change. No, our bodies are constantly changing, especially with climate chaos. Anyway, so really bringing in not just disability, but also changing bodies and how that impacts the way that we think about caring for other people and doing the work that we do. So Jessica is, her chapter is in that section. She's a nurse and she's also a menopause coach. And she has a black mom. She's biracial. And so her chapter is not only about being a black nurse and caring for black people, but it's also about the knowing of how they see each other, but also her fear of her mother dying. And what does it mean when nobody else is going to know I'm black because my mother is now dead. And those are the important reminders, I think, for people that we can talk about this stuff, that this is what's on our minds. And yeah, it's not for everybody to engage with at all. But it's important for people to know that our grief shows up in ways that are complicated. And it's complicated because of the racial formation in this country. It's complicated because of the way colorism exists. It's complicated for all the elitism and more. And so those kinds of shares were deeply in the book, but also Sarah's chapter, Sarah Flowers talking about being a mom, and talking to her young tween child who's witnessing anti-abortion extremist march in the streets. And she can now read their signs and she's like, what does this mean? And so Sarah really talking about this is how our family thinks about body autonomy. And this is why those people are angry. And here's what we would say to those individuals or why we believe this. And doing it in such an accessible way to demonstrate that you can have these conversations with nine-year-olds. They get it, they understand it, and we're really doing a disservice, we're doing adult supremacy when we don't allow that conversation with them. So that one is, the middle chapter is really, I don't want to say it's all over the place, but it is, it's a range of different experience and approaches to doing the work and being in bodies that we have. And the final chapter are the oral narratives. So those chapters don't have accompanying lesson plans because there's just so many good oral narrative storytelling lesson plans that you can find. 

Dr. Ericka Burns: Oh, you can pull, yeah. And even within those conversations, I was like, oh, I could pull this, I could pull that.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Exactly. Like you can read that and easily be like, oh, Nikiya is talking about fashion and being a social worker and connecting with your staff and your clients by acknowledging the way that they're adorning and decorring their body. And that's an intersectional approach. It's a relational approach. And I think though, that's why I was like, there's no way, Nikiya, I'm not going to let you get out of this book. We need you to write. But also having people talk about how they collaborate across communities. And that's what the chapter from our team in Mexico, Vulgar with Melina and Susia, they write about who they collaborate with and they write about how their manifesto looks when they do this sex at work in Mexico City. So yeah, so it's a range of things, but it's also, I don't know, it keeps you interested, I think, because it's not so similar every chapter.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. It is refreshing because you get a different perspective. I get to go somewhere different. I get to see what different cultures are, how their conversations are. I remember in Karen's chapter about the grandmother as an unlikely ally and what a coming out process could be in that experience. And I was just like, okay, how can saying, well, whatever they say, what did they mention? Basically, hopefully they're supporting you or they don't, who cares about them kind of thing. And their parents saying, do you want me to tell your family? Because if I don't, then they won't know that I support you and I support you. It's fine. Because my sister identified as queer or how did they identify like that? I think that's what the quote was. And it's just like how these different generations and different communities talk. And I think I sat within the section two for a minute because it was just hearing people's individual stories and their connections and how even with the conversation with Sarah about how they looked at abortion, which is very timely, obviously, within the generation, with how her mom talked about it and then now with their daughter. And I'm just like, that's what a beautiful conversation. And it wasn't hard. And I think that, I don't know if you get this a lot, but the question of how do I be a sex educator? I'm like half the time you already are. Like most of the time you already are. You're already having a conversation. If the conversations you have with the kids in your community, your kids, if you want to, family members, extended family or chosen family, how do we engage in these conversations? And I think that sometimes putting ourselves in a box of this title or whatever the case may be, it's like this is everyday work. This is everyday living. And yeah, that section, it sat with me for some time too, because I was like, this is very interesting to kind of go back and review some of that too.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yeah. And I think with Sarah's chapter, especially it's about abortion. So it really invites us to think about how does our training of sex professionals weave in abortion, if at all? Because I know when I was being trained in 1996 and throughout, there was no conversation about abortion. It was kind of this default that you will figure it out, but we had tons of classes about sex and pregnancy or pregnancy and fetal development or whatever else, chest feeding, breastfeeding, but we can't have a conversation about abortion. Like it's not anywhere in the curriculum. And I want to rectify that. I want to correct it, especially after the Dobbs decision. There is absolutely no way. I don't understand how some of these programs are training sex educators and not talking about abortion. So really helping us think through what is possible, but also this book in that chapter and that lesson plan is really a gift for people who are department heads or leading these certificate programs, because it's really an opportunity for you to think about, oh, how can I weave this in? Because you know it's missing, you know it's missing, you know it's missing. And that for me is what it means to correct the archive, to expand it, to acknowledge it. It shouldn't be that our field is promoting birth only. We don't even talk about miscarriage either. I was just going to say that. So that to me is just a huge barrier. So we're not talking about perimenopause. We just started talking about the internal clitoris like five years ago. You know, so like why is it like that? So yeah, so it's also really acknowledging that this is a gift. The work that we did, I value it, but it's also not just a reminder, but it's like a calling on for other people to do better, because we've been doing better. You just don't let us shine in spaces that we have to share with y'all.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Can we talk about it? That's why we're here actually.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Right? Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Ericka Burns: No, I when talking with youth around, you talk through puberty, you do that stuff, but the conversation, I think it was a couple years ago, we created a campaign and it was around how come people don't talk about pregnancy loss or miscarriage. It's always like if you have sex, you will have a baby. And it's like that easy. Like boom, a lot of people have a lot of, there's folks with infertility issues. We don't talk about infertility. We don't talk about miscarriage. We don't talk about still, we don't talk about none of these things. And it's like, we have never had comprehensive sex education without that information. It has never been comprehensive. And I know that we're trying our best and we're trying to fill in the gaps of what we're missing and what we wish we knew. And there's still more information that we're missing because it's so vast, like the, for schools, colleges, however it works. If they only get a week a day to talk about sex and sexuality, I don't even think they talk about sexuality, but it limits us. And so we need this work now. So now we're having adult sex education in a different perspective, but almost like relearning everything, learning our own bodies. And you mentioned going through perimenopause and menopause. Nobody talks about that either. You're just supposed to know from your friends.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Right, Like our generation is the one that's finally changing that and talking more openly about it and pushing medical providers to think and learn more. And the new research that's developing, I mean, we're literally living in the future, right? Like I remember I was born and grew up in a world that didn't have HIV and now it's a totally different scenario. And now we have COVID. So thinking about how all those things are connected to sex, sexuality, activism, eugenics, disability, those are all the pieces that I think definitely show up in the book, but are important to our field and for us to really consider, because if we want to stay relevant and continue to do amazing work, we got to continue to grow and evolve. And there's a lot of people who don't want to, they know who they are. And this book is maybe not for them if they want to stay in that space. But those are also the people that remind me what kind of elder do I want to become because I want to become an elder that listens to young people that doesn't have to talk to be right, but wants to communicate to be understood. And someone who is learning, oh, I don't want to, let me remember not to behave like that, because this is how it's coming across, right? Good examples for me to like, remember how I want to show up in the world and continue to be someone that other people, you know, want to work with and collaborate with, but also someone who can sit back and lead and allow other people to lead them, not just lead. But, you know, my leading days are kind of over. Like, I really want to be in a space where I'm ready to learn from younger people, people who got the energy to do it in a different way. People who have often been excluded as well, even in my tent here. Like, I can tell you all the people who are excluded because the book can't do it all, right? So that doesn't mean that certain people weren't reached out to. It just means they couldn't do it at the time. And those, and yeah, that's unfortunately the field that we have inherited, but we get to change it. And so hopefully this book is one of those attempts to make that change for sure.

Dr. Ericka Burns: I've definitely said this before, I'll follow the youth anywhere. Like, I think, I mean, when you think about major social movements, they're led by the youth, they're led by young people, college age, high school age students that are really driving for it. They don't even have to be in high school or college, but they are really driving these movements and we push them to the side, we push them to the side. And it's just like, we have been right this whole time. But I feel you on the energy though, because like I said, now I'm ready to follow the youth, not lead as a youth. Y'all tell me what I got to do. Speaking of actually, you mentioned a lot around, especially in the first chapter around media literacy and connecting now when we're talking about youth leadership and looking at archiving our work and how do we balance those two? I mean, we have a lot of young folks that are using social media to empower, to lift up, to just to gather or even boycott and educate. And of course, there's always some areas of media where mis and disinformation especially around contraception, abortion right now. But how can we use media and within, you know, the context of your book? How can we use media within the context of even adapting lesson plans or lesson planning within media that we can use as a tool?

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yeah, you know, I love media. I'm definitely a product of love and popular culture growing up in the 90s. So, you know, when I think about the impact that it's had on my life, not only am I grateful, but I'm also even more grateful that I didn't have the technology that the young people have today where things are being documented.

Dr. Ericka Burns: It's too much.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yeah. Like this idea of privacy, right? But it's a different engagement with privacy. And it's a challenge around thinking about body autonomy that allows them to practice and mess up and, you know, make mistakes without harming other people, including themselves. But I think it's such an important conversation to have. And I'm always surprised at how late the homosexuality field was to incorporating media literacy as a core educational approach. Now, if you do like an internet search looking for, you know, research, sure you'll find stuff from maybe 10 years ago. That's not enough. 10 years ago was 2014, y'all. You know, like, that is ridiculous, right? Like I graduated high school in 1996 and was talking about like, here's what I'm learning from LTLC and Salt-N-Pepa and here's, you know, and people today want to still quote that Salt-N-Pepa Let's Talk About Sex song. And I'm just like, y'all don't even know how they treated Spinderella. Y'all don't even know anything else from their archives. You know, that to me is now like a red flag when people are like, let's talk about sex. I'm like, you don't know.

Dr. Ericka Burns: You don't know nothing.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Right. Like you all don’t know anything about Salt-N-Pepa. So, so for me, I'm like, y'all are just so leaning on and dependent on not just the products of Black communities, but also not even weaving in an opportunity to consider the way that we're being exposed to messages and information. And that to me is a form of adult supremacy that definitely sets young people up to fail. And so, you know, the first lesson plan in the book is for a chapter that I wrote about music and it's about media literacy and how it just burns my biscuits that people right now will skip over media literacy and go directly to porn literacy conversations. Not that that's not important, but you got, you can't just jump into the deep end immediately. You gotta take a couple of steps back and media literacy gives us a foundation which porn literacy is based on. So why are we jumping instead of really getting this historical understanding? So it's part of that. But also, one of the first activities is to have participants engage with the book as an object, like objectify this book. What does it smell like? What does it feel like between your hands? What do you see on the cover? What do you think the cover image means? Like all of that was intentional. The title of the book was not what I proposed four years ago. Right. Like I created that and communicated with a lot of different people. So it was intentional to want to call it the people's book. That was an intentional reference to the collaboration and community work. And so was the image on the cover. So inviting people to really sit and be like, oh, why do I see black and grays and sparkling gold? What does this remind me of? Where does it take me? And inviting people to look at abstract art is also an entry point for abstract theory. We're like, we don't always have to know the answer. We get to see the answer. We get to sit with not just discomfort, but also like being unsure. And I think that's not something that we nurture enough as we're being trained. It's to sit with like, what does it mean to be unsure? What does it mean to really think a little bit longer? Like that's the sustainability piece. Why are we rushing? There's so much. That's not sustainable. People are not going to get the information and we're not going to get the experience that we want and also want to offer. So yeah, for me objectifying the book was also a questioning also of the way that we talk about sexualization and objectification has always been so negative. And yet we never consider, how do some people find power in being objectified? What does it mean when they control the gaze and how people are receiving that? Like that's powerful. I think that is what we miss when we don't bring in a media literacy piece. And so I was like, let's put the book behind your head, sit on it, do something with it and then talk about what it was like to do that. Like make it into something more than a book, right in the margins. Like that's what my copy looks like.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Oh yeah.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: And so all of that being like a core part, that's also making media. And I would even argue that's media justice, the opportunity that we get to have to make our own messages and make the messages that we want to share. And that can be from like how I'm put on makeup to what t-shirt I'm wearing to writing a book or a poem. And yeah, so to me, it's almost like I can't, I don't know another way to do the work, but beyond incorporating media literacy. It's kind of the same, like I don't know how to do the work without folding in standpoint theory or black feminist thought. Like I don't know how to do it and I don't want to know. I think we are trained on how they did it without all of that. And it's not working now. It is old and tired.

Dr. Ericka Burns: No, I definitely, I felt that way. I don't know if you read, the taste for brown, the taste of brown sugar. It's by Mario Miller Young. You don't talk about, okay. So that was an interesting take on like the history of the views of porn, but in a pleasure gaze, like, look, like I enjoy this. And I think people get so shocked when they're like, oh, you know, and I totally agree. I think when it comes to media, I had to use media for my own dissertation because there's not enough research. I had to pull from Twitter. I had to pull from online interviews. I quoted Janelle Monáe calling herself a free ass motherfucker. I'm like, what if that's a, I love that as a, like an identity. What if that's something we could put on our little boxes, gay, straight, free ass motherfucker. I love that.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's like the core part of like, that's us building stuff, right? So your dissertation, that's media, you know, like your dissertation defense, that was media. So I think sometimes we forget that it's all around us and all of us are media creators, whether we want to acknowledge it or not. And yeah, we might want to use words like influencer to easier connection, but you know, writing the menu for your meal plan for the week, that's media making too. You know, it's all around us all the time, just like consent. And so if we're not really honoring all the way that it shapeshifts and looks and feels and sounds, are we really even doing the work? I'm really even doing the work at the end of the day, because it's not hard to consider it. It's just as another layer. And I think some people are like, I can't, I don't want to, right? Which is fine. They get to make that choice, but there's consequences to not wanting to engage with the scholarship that's evolving the field.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Right. Even our language around media has changed. We can't even just post anymore. It's your content or how you're curating something. And it is like, I just want to post my family reunion.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Exactly. Right. So my opinion. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Ericka Burns: So for me, I think some final takeaways is that throughout the book, I felt that there was a lot of self-reflection for me, a lot of pauses. Like I said, I sat with some sections. I sat with some, some of the chapters a little bit longer than others. And I'm like, let me come back to that. And I feel like as a, as a reader, it was, it was really nice to even have a pause, I think in the middle of the book where I think it was quoted. It was like, dear reader, we're tired and we know you're tired too. And I'm just like, and I know that in the context, it was around COVID, but I mean, like just in life, we're trying to do our best. We're trying to do the best we, we can with the tools we have with the resources that are available to us. And I'm curious around your own self-reflection as you went through, edited, and I know you have a more intimate personal connection with the authors and the chapters, but I'm curious about your personal reflection of the book and kind of like you're, you're standing back and looking at

your masterpiece. How do you, how do you see it now?

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. The book definitely follows like this legacy of fans of global majority having a very long introduction to like explain why their work is valid and really like grounded in these theoretical concepts and, you know, activist spirits and more. And so it definitely like, I don't know how long it is, maybe it's like 30 pages long, but that's partly because I wrote two different intros. I feel like so writing an intro in 2020 was very different than writing an intro in 2022. You know, it was a different planet. We had lost millions and millions of people. We're still losing thousands and thousands of people every day to COVID infection and long COVID and disabling experiences. And, you know, my, not just the vision didn't change in the book, but the way I was thinking about, we're still in process of building the book. And I have to be very clear that as a multiply disabled person who's immunocompromised, who is basically, you know, shelled up in this house in Oakland where I'm not really leaving the home because of that risk, even if I am massed, like it's very, you know, minor things, but, you know, what has changed for me as the editor? And so one big chunk wasn't just like more reflecting on like, okay, here we are two years later, this is what has happened. But it was also like, let me tell you what I was doing in the back end.

You know, let me tell you what was happening in the background that you didn't know was happening to make this book a reality. And that was reaching out to people who I trusted and who I knew loved me and respected the work and who would, and who will follow the work to its end if I died because of whatever. And I know it sounds like, I don't know, however, it sounds sad grief, chicken, whatever it's real for me. Yeah. I'm like, that's the reality. Like it still is the reality. You know, I'm going to an estate planning workshop this month, you know, like those are the things specifically for queer people, but like, those are the things like I'm thinking about when it comes to like succession planning, which to me is also a gift that we give people. There's so many, and there's so many people that are still in positions that they should have left 10 years ago, right? Like the people who just take up the space and don't get out of the way for growth and evolution. That's a problem. Like that is erosion and that is a misuse of power. So being honest about, I reached out to this friend and Cielo said, yes, if something happens to you, tell me where the stuff is, tell me what you want to have happen. I will then, you know, introduce myself to the authors. And like, I had a plan, like, this is how the phone tree looks. You know, this is the person who's going to reach out to these people. This is the email that you're going to send to folks that I wrote. And maybe it seems like too much, but like I was in it. It was like, like a good friend died. Many of my friends' parents died. Like we were all grieving a lot. And I was like, one of the ways to cope with my grief is to tell people how I want to be celebrated and honored and the work that I want to have be wrapped up. Because I know too often people don't do succession planning and people are impacted negatively. And I did not want people to work so hard on their chapters and this book not get published because I'm dead. Like there's no reason for that to happen, right? And so I'm even thinking about like, what are the departments or the places that are going to get my archive? You know, where am I going to house that archive that I have of my work in this field? So it was that kind of consideration that I was thinking through and writing that chapter because it's so important to the work and to also envisioning like what else is possible. So that was a lot that was going on on the back end. In addition to, you know, just struggling, writing is hard. Writing is so hard and we do so much hard work quietly that it feels very insular. So even, you know, when we had those writing spaces together, I needed it just as much as they did. You know, one of those, one of those requests for an extension, that was because of me because I was like, I can't get out of bed and I'm behind, I'm getting people's stuff or whatever. And some of them were because there were just more than five people who were like, I can't do it. So, you know, being honest about that, I think, rehumanizes us for each other, but also for the work that we're doing and for the community that we're a part of, which I think is just such a beautiful gift that we give ourselves and other people to practice interdependence in that way, but also a really core element of what a liberatory pedagogy can offer, a liberatory andragogy of like, rehumanizing ourselves, coming back into ourselves is so, so vital and important. And I think that's what happened for a lot of people who are writing their chapters and reflecting on their work.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Yeah. Okay, cool. I'm so excited and I'm excited to see this grow and the conversation that comes out of it. I think what really stands out also, there's a lot of things that stands out, I keep saying that, but the thing that stands out is that you did list it or you named it an archive, which archives grow. Any plans of growth on this or how you see this growing or you're just like, you know what, can I just celebrate this and then I'll get to it later, which is very real too.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there's a couple of people who are like, I want to be in the book, but I can't do it. And they really have to do their chapters and important chapters, right? Like important chapters about like intra-racial and sexual experiences in Black communities. Like I know that chapter needs to be published with the poem, right? And so I want to do that. And so even throughout the intro, there's like a conjuring, right? Like it's even an index where I'm like a conjure, go read what the conjuring is. For all of us to like collectively be like, yeah, I do want a second round. Yeah, I do want a second volume. I haven't reached out to the editor to like bring that to fruition yet. We just had like a six month of check-ins around like sales and things like that. But I do envision this being a volume set and yeah, it's not going to come out like every year necessarily, but I know it's definitely going to come out and it's going to now have people who are like, you know what, I want to write something. You didn't ask me, it's an invitation only, but I think that's a good thing. Like this was an invitation only text because I knew I had money to pay people what they should be paid. But this next round, my hope is that people will reach out and say, I want to write, I want to publish something and I want it to be in this book. And also for my own work, you know, there's things that, you know, my friends are like, why don't you publish your work about how you build your classes or, you know, how you change this training that's really important to our field. And I'm like, well, I'm not ready to write it all down just yet. And I'm still thinking about where I want to publish that stuff. So I still have a lot of those thoughts held within me that I'm imagining. And so, yeah, I definitely want to invite people to like conjure a second, third, and fourth volume and edition to really help it expand and grow as our communities and the world changes. And also my hope is that like, when I'm no longer here on the planet and I'm Stardust, somebody else is like, you know what, I'm going to pick up what Bianca did and I'm going to continue. And now we're going to have like the 12th edition or the 12th volume or whatever it is. So I really want it to evolve and build and shape shift and become what it needs to become for the moment in time that's going to be published.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Yeah, that's beautiful. So basically what you're saying, your DMs are open. 

Dr. Bianca Laureano: No. I mean, yeah, that's what we're accessible on purpose. I think people can find us for our reasons.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Yes. So I hope I hope folks are reading this book and really pull out. I put out so much. So I think that a lot of folks will pull out and a lot and then they will also get inspired and hopefully will be a part of your second, third, fourth edition. So hopefully this inspires a lot of folks. This, this was a beautiful conversation and I hope folks feel inspired, um, whatever that might look like, inspired to rest, inspired to write, inspired to create, or have difficult conversations with folks. Um, are there any final thoughts or any final takeaways you want folks to leave here with?

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Um, let's see, if you're thinking about coming into the human sexuality field, or if you're already here, know that you deserve to be here. If you want to be here, um, you probably deserve a lot more than what it is that you're experiencing for sure. Um, and you know, there are ways to do the work differently than the way that you've been trained. A lot of my, a lot of my time in my graduate program was literally taking notes about what we weren't talking about. So if you're in a program and you're like, what is this? Why am I learning this? Um, identify the gaps because that's how you can then build the work that you want to do. You then get an outline of, oh, we didn't talk about this, abortion. Now I know to look for these resources. Um, so that really helped me when I was like, I don't need to know about another Masters and Johnson research article. You know, like I understand what the Kinsey Institute does, but they're not doing it with my communities. Um, so it's not to like diss them, but it's just acknowledge like that's not relevant to me and the communities that I work with. So, um, you know, those gaps give you information too. So document them, identify them, and know that there is a gap. Um, and know that they're, that we're out here. We've been here, we're doing the work and you can find us. You just got to ask around. And many, many of us are like one or two degrees from each other.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Okay. Yes. And I really want to stress that you can also curate your own syllabus and challenge it, ask questions. Why this author over this author, um, ask those questions and, and those readings because a lot of the times folks might reusing the same syllabus, right? Like, yeah, this worked before, it's going to work again, but it might not because things are evolving. So, um, let's evolve with time. Shoot.

Dr. Bianca Laureano: Absolutely. Thank you so much. It was so good.

Dr. Ericka Burns: Oh, this was great. This was great. Um, thank you all for joining us. This is a wonderful, wonderful conversation with Bianca. This, um, so grateful. Definitely get the book if you don't have it, um, and dive in and enjoy it. Um, so with that, thank you all and y'all have a great night. Good night.

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

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