CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

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This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land.

For over two decades, Deborah Egerton has been teaching the Enneagram—a popular personality typing tool—as a valuable device for social justice and anti-racism. In this episode Dr. Egerton is joined by Micky ScottBey Jones, Enneagram teacher and multi-faith movement chaplain, for an empowering conversation exploring social justice through the lens of the Enneagram.

Drawing on Dr. Egerton’s work and latest book, Know Justice Know Peace, their conversation illuminates how the inner work of each of the nine Enneagram archetypes creates healing, elevates consciousness, and aligns us as individuals with the heart of humanity in order to eliminate systemic racism. They invite us to explore our own personality archetype in order to activate ourselves as allies within a beloved community; a community that acknowledges that, while we may come in many shades and colors, we are part of one human race. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on March 30th, 2023. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

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Micky ScottBey Jones: Welcome everyone. We are so glad that you are here with us tonight. And I just have to start by first thanking Alex and the team that is putting this together for inviting me to be a part of this conversation with a mentor of mine. And I, Dr. E, you know this, but I want to make sure everyone else knows that you are a mentor and I look at you as kind of a mama bear for a lot of us younger, and I say younger in quotes because we're not all that young. [laughs] We're just maybe the next generation of Enneagram teachers and coaches and practitioners. And so many of us, especially those that are Black, Indigenous, Latinx, like all people of color, marginalized teachers, so many of us are privileged to know you and to be taken under your wing.

And so, I'm just grateful that other people get to be introduced to you tonight and even know you in that capacity, right, that you are pouring into that next generation because you are really a legacy teacher. You know, we so often only include the maybe the older white male and female teachers, sometimes even the women, but you know that's who's included as the legacy Enneagram teachers. So, this is a great time for people to be able to hear your wisdom and not just the standard Enneagram teachings, but we are really getting to talk about something that you've been a pioneer in, which is the Enneagram and social justice. So, thank you so much for the role you have in my life and the role that you are playing tonight by teaching so many of your work. 

Dr. Deborah Egerton: Well, Micky, thank you so much for that. And yes, you know, I think of you as a daughter and I love you dearly, so I couldn't be happier than to be doing this with you and recognizing that as I look at that next generation that I am working to pass this work on to looking at the caliber of human beings who are graciously not only accepting it, but doing the things with it that need to be done in order to innovate and elevate and move the work forward. And to me, that is powerful. I know that there are shoulders that I stand on that I would not be able to have done what I do now without the wisdom teachers and the legacy teachers that I had.

And, you know, to be very, very honest and clear about this, I came along in a time where I was growing up when Martin Luther King was leading the civil rights movement, when Malcolm X was assassinated, when all of our great leaders were assassinated, when all of these things were happening, I was actually alive and old enough to understand some of it and to begin to study it and to look at it in through a lens that helped me recognize that people were being treated differently, people were being marginalized, and that we would have to learn how to continue to move forward even when some of our greatest leaders were struck down.

So, this has been the work of my life and of my heart. It is my purpose and my passion. And when I found the Enneagram, it was really, and I don't censor my language, I'm a woman of faith, and to me, it was God's gift to say, here's something that I'm giving to you to be able to make this work more understandable to people in the world so that you can actually be a force and a vessel for bringing people together. When we can understand one another, then we can get to those next steps. But without communication and understanding, we will never get to acceptance and inclusion, and we got stuck, Micky, at tolerance.

Tolerance is a word that makes my, just literally makes my hair stand on end because when we got to tolerance, so many thought that was it, that was the panacea. [Micky: Yeah.] But tolerance was simply one step, and tolerance is not inclusion. Tolerance is not acceptance. It's certainly not belonging or celebration. So, you know, these are some things that we'll be talking about. And like I said, I'm so delighted with the generation that will carry this on. 

Micky: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love it you're jumping right in, but let's roll it back just a little bit for folks who are joining us that might not know what the Enneagram is at all. So, I would love for you to just explain a little bit about the Enneagram. And then, you know, I know that you talk about this in the term of waking up. So, give us a little bit on Enneagram and how you wake up in general and then to social justice. 

Dr. Egerton: So, the Enneagram is actually, the symbol is an ancient symbol of nine different personality archetypes. And I want to make it clear because sometimes people get very confused when they talk about how old the ancient the Enneagram is. The symbol is very old. It predates Plato. We don't know where its true origin comes from. And I can share that I just came back from Egypt spending a month over there tracing the roots of the Enneagram and looking at ancient civilizations and looking at just ways that it appeared even back during the times of the ancient Egyptians.

But the typology of personality is, came over to the Western world. We started looking at that more or less in the 80s. And we began to see how some of the founding fathers of the Enneagram were able to create a typology of personality. So, we have this ancient spiritual wisdom and then we also have modern psychology combining to create the Enneagram as we know it today. I can say a lot more about that, but I don't think that's the best use of our time.

The nine different points on the Enneagram represent, in my words, it's nine different energies. And at each of these points, there is a very strong energy that we embody as individuals. Now, we have all nine of those points of energy within us, but one of them leads. And the important part of learning how to understand and embrace the Enneagram is to recognize that the point that dominates or that leads within you is really the place where you get stuck. And a lot of people like to talk, they'll say, well, I don't want to be typed. Don't put me in a box. I don't even like to use the word Enneagram type. I talk about it more as the nine different points and the point where you stand. But really what the Enneagram does is it helps you to see where you're stuck and what the box is that you're trapped in that you haven't yet learned how to get yourself out of.

The study of the Enneagram is, and I laugh about this for many years when I actively practiced as a psychotherapist, I would tell people that they needed to do their inner work. And if I had a dollar for every time someone said, what is inner work? But the Enneagram helps you to understand what inner work is and how to do it. It's picking up a mirror and really looking beyond your superficial image, but really looking at the depth of your own soul. And to me, the Enneagram gives you an opportunity to touch your soul and you will go as far with your inner work as you are willing and as deep as you are willing to go to touch your own soul. So, the Enneagram is just an amazing and beautiful way to see yourself through the eyes of God. And when we do, we learn that we are lovable, that we are whole, that we are not broken, and that the wounded parts of us are capable and we have the capacity to heal, but you can't heal until you look at your own wounds. And the Enneagram helps you. 

Micky: Yeah. And you're using God language, but I think both of us approach the Enneagram in a way where whatever God, universe, spirit, whatever it is for you, the Enneagram isn’t attached to any religion or belief system. And some of us are introduced to it that way. We are introduced to it through faith communities or through certain people. And then there's confusion about, is it attached to a particular tradition? And I know you don't teach it that way. Some people might. They might attach their own spiritual tradition to it. But I know you've worked with people all over the world coming from lots of different backgrounds.

Dr. Egerton: Absolutely. And I will say that something that I share with people all the time, I'm clear about my own path on the Enneagram. However, there are different ways that you enter into the Enneagram world. And it's really funny. Like I said, over these past two and a half decades now of working with the Enneagram, I have seen people in the corporate world come into the Enneagram. And it's all about team building. And it's all about learning how to become a better leader or to be promoted within the organization. And that's the lane that maybe corporate wants me to stay in with them. And I can stay there. But what always happens is that there are a few people that will end up following me over to another path. And then they'll become more curious about the spiritual path of the Enneagram. And then there are others that are just interested in sort of the psychological components of the Enneagram. So, there's many, many ways to enter it. And whichever door you choose as an entryway, what actually happens is that the Enneagram is going to be as useful to you as you allow yourself to go on the deep dive. So, the door to enter through really doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter.

Micky - Right. Yeah. I love that because I think now with it becoming so popular and there's just memes online, we can really get caught up in, well, they're not doing true Enneagram. I don't even care if somebody gets their type wrong, quote unquote. And you might end up with the wrong page on the map at first. And that's okay. You flip to the next page. Somebody starts with the wrong quote unquote number as their map. That's fine. They'll get there eventually. It's going to be fine. Everybody calm down. [laughs]

Dr. Egerton: [laughs] Yeah. Well, you know what I love about that is that if in fact you start out and as I say to people, you may have gotten into the right neighborhood, but you may not have found your house. [Micky: Yeah.] So, just kind of keep searching. And an important part of that is that even if the point of the Enneagram that you initially invest in is not your point and you find that out later, you've learned a lot about one of the other points on the Enneagram that happens to be inside of you and that will help you to relate and connect to other people. So, there is no amount of time that you put into the Enneagram that is useless. Because you have all nine of those energies within you. And Micky, it's so powerful to be able to meet someone's energy because you understand what's operating behind that whole egoic agenda. You understand that. So that's a beautiful thing. 

Micky: Yeah. And I had the experience of being kind of mistyped or mistyping myself at first because, and this is kind of getting into the social justice part and I want to kind of transition us there. But my friends that I was discovering the Enneagram with, they're like, oh, you must be an eight. And of course they're thinking this is a Black woman, she's assertive and she says what she means and she walks into a room and she commands attention and she's a leader. And so that got me labeled as eight. And it was reading Richard Rohr's description of a type one, particularly around the inner critic that I, I mean, I must've just had just salty drops on that page when I started reading that because the tears, the like immediate understanding of what was actually happening, but no one had ever talked about the inner critic when they were describing me. They were only because they were observing my actions. They didn't have access to my inner world. Right. And so that really broke me open seeing that there was another thing that I could consider and really start to do that inner work. But that time wasn't wasted thinking I was an eight or that I led with an eight. 

Dr. Egerton: I have a similar story because also I stand at point one on the Enneagram and I'm a Black woman and obviously I'm an activist. And of course, everyone said, you're, you must be an eight. No, I'm not an eight, but for me, the recognition came very sudden. It came immediately and it came hard. And I, I share this with people because sometimes finding your point on the Enneagram can be an uncomfortable experience. And for me, when I first found my point at point one, I curled up in a little ball and I just cried. I just cried and it was no, my intention in moving through the world is to make things better, to help fix things. And I could see all the ways that I might have been trying to help or to fix where I may have done harm.

So, I immediately had to move into that mode of healing myself and then being able to go out into the world and doing the social justice work. Because what I do know is that for communities that are marginalized, we don't always have access to the tools or the mechanisms of change and healing that are pretty ubiquitous. But if we don't have the open access, if we don't have the resources and the resources include time, you know, if you're working three jobs and taking care of several children and you're involved in their activities, your job, keeping your home together, doing all the things and wearing all the hats that you have to wear in the world, and there's still enough, not enough money to go around at the end of the day, this sounds like it might be a luxury. This sounds like it might be something that you can't afford to do, but that's not true. You know, it's not true. And Micky, you and I are people who are working to make the Enneagram more accessible in the world so that particularly people who are marginalized, who are, as I call us, love warriors, that we will have access, open access to mechanisms that will allow us to heal. And we need that. We really need that.

Micky: Yes, that's really part of my motivation of becoming an Enneagram teacher, becoming

certified, becoming accredited. I wanted to provide, not that you can't learn the Enneagram from anybody, you can, but there are a lot of trust issues, right? And with things that seem like they are primarily for one type of person. And I know the way it's changed my life. And I wanted us to have more access. I really did. And so, for me, as a Black woman, as a queer woman, and just I wanted to make sure that there were more teachers that look like me out there. And that we could, that you don't, your only option isn't to sit in a circle and explore yourself. Like that's not accessible to a lot of people. So how can we do this in a different way that it's actually incorporated into your life?

So, let's talk a little bit about how you break it down in the book, that each type kind of has their own work to do, their own gifts, maybe even superpowers to bring to the work of social change. And you kind of start with the three centers and three categories built around those centers and then go into the types. So, I know we can't go into all the types, but maybe you could start with the centers and a little bit about sort of those, you know, what's different for each point.

Dr. Egerton: Yeah, I can, I can do the, you know, the 60,000 foot view and just pique the curiosity of our audience. But, you know, we, we have three centers of intelligence. We have a body center, a heart center, and a head center, and probably one of the most powerful things that I learned, you know, later on in the Enneagram, when I, when I recognized that the body, not only does it keep score, shout out to an amazing author, but the body has a wisdom all its own. And there are three types that are in what we call the body center or the gut, you know, sort of like that intuitive wisdom that rises up from your belly. It's that thing that happens, Mickey, when, you know, your kids are not where you told them to be. [Micky laughs] No, something's not right here. You know, you know how you know that, but that is kind of gut wisdom, you know, that, intuitive, you know, our grandmothers used to call it, you know, mother's wit, women's intuition, all of those things. But we all have it. We all have that, that sort of belly based knowing without knowing.

And within those, within that, that, that center right there is the eight, the nine and the one are in the belly center. And what I call eights, nines and ones are defenders, defenders. All right. These are the people who their energy is to kind of get out in front of things or get in the middle of things, even when they don't necessarily want to, because the eight will get right out in front and, and well, you know, will call you out. Will absolutely have no problem with saying this is messed up. This is just wrong. All right. So, the eight has that kind of superpower to call it and tell it like it is.

And the nine who is also in the belly center. It's  fascinating because nines don't like conflict, but in the social change work, what begins to happen at point nine is there is a sort of leaning back and watching all the chaos and confusion and then synthesizing a bringing it together in a way where all the thoughts that have been expressed, had been listened to, have been heard, have been processed through the mind of the one. And it's really processed through the gut, where gut, this, this wisdom. And then the nine will come back with a very simple solution that everyone can turn around and go, yeah, wow, that would work. You know, that's a superpower that is so needed when people are trying to get out there and figure out, you know, what to do. And then they're clashing, but nine's even not liking conflict are brilliant mediators. And it's amazing if you ever watch a nine do that.

And then there's you and me, Micky, there's the ones, you know, we are not going to sit around and watch something that is broken and not working for the good of humanity and just sit on our thumbs. We're not going to do that. You know, we're going to speak truth to power. We're going to organize and activate and actually go out and be the defenders of all who need to be defended. And something that I love about the energy of the defenders is that there is a sort of universal goodness in the way of, oh, well, you're marginalized and so are you. And so are you. Okay. We're all love warriors. Let's get together and figure out how we work together and help each other. And I've seen that frequently in the defenders, which is a lovely thing to have happen. Once you're in the fight, you're in the fight, you know, so let's get in this and let's figure out how we can do it together. So that's the energy of the belly center.

Micky: Yeah. And you know what, Dr. E, that's fascinating because that you said we kind of get together and do this. I will hear people, you know, we have our stereotypes of different types. I will hear other people of other types or other points talk about having trouble with eights and I love them. I have no trouble because I understand their energy and I'm not intimidated by it. They're big old teddy bears. Doesn't bother me at all. You can stomp your feet all you want. I'm not scared. So, it's an interesting, but also, I really enjoy, you know, what tends to be a more that observing laid back vibe of a nine. Like there's something all about, even though we vary, we have very different expressions of that body energy. You know, to me, there's some understanding there within this grouping that it just works.

Dr. Egerton: Yeah. And it's an amazing understanding. I've been married to a nine for 42 years. So as much as I know one, I know nine as well. And I have watched the nines around me and, you know, cohabitated with a very loving nine. And I just understand the inner workings of how for nines, there is this really important thing that the other eight types do not share. When the other eight types actually try to engage to do social change work, there is an agenda of some sort. There is something that each point on the Enneagram really is trying to achieve. The nine is trying to achieve peace. So, there's not this underground sort of personal agenda. That's why nines are so good at bringing us together because their underlying agenda is how do we get to peace? How do we actually move forward together? So those are the defenders. And eight, nine and one, just look at the superpower that you have. The voice of the eight and the action of the eight, the peacemaking and bringing together ability of the nine and the sort of fearless activation of the one, to do the right thing and to do the right thing for all.

But then, you know, if you have just that energy that you're running off of, you can burn yourself out, which is why the energy of the heart, which is where we find our healers, you know, the twos, the threes and the fours. And people who stand at point two are amazing in social change work because at the end of the day, the need to give and receive love comes from in this work, a place of wanting people to be healed and to be well and to feel love and to be able to give love back. So, at point two, that is just so, so just, it's in the very air that twos breathe. And the superpower of the two, really is getting in it, and taking care of all of the people who are in the struggle. Keeping their finger on the pulse of the individuals that are going out into the world doing this work. You know, just being there and knowing, I can't tell you how many times the twos on my team have said, Dr. E, we can't do that. That's too many things in one day. And no, it's too much of an agenda. You're going to kill those people. I listen to them because I know their finger is on the pulse of the people that we're working with. 

Micky: Yeah. What they need.

Dr. Egerton: Absolutely. Now, our threes, gotta love a three. If there's an obstacle in the path, if there's something that we need to literally move out of the way and it's too heavy to lift, the threes that have engaged in this work will come back and say, you know, we can get around that. Let me tell you how, you know, so there's a resourcefulness, a resourcefulness that keeps the defenders from burning out because when we get to a place and we feel like we're at a wall that we just can't knock down, if we didn't have the twos looking out for us and if we didn't have the threes coming up with the resourceful ways or the connections or knowing the people to be able to help us get around an obstacle, it wouldn't go forward. And so that's the superpower that I see in the gift that threes bring to social change and social justice.

And then the fours. I love this particular descriptor and I always give Russ Hudson credit for it because when he said these words one time at a training early on, he said the fours are the holders of the beauty in the world. And it totally transformed the way that I viewed fours. So, the superpower and the gift that the fours have to bring to this work is really their capacity to be in it with you with empathy and love and without the judgment. You know, it's just being with you, understanding that there's a lot of suffering in this type of work and not everyone can deal with the suffering, but a four can deal with the suffering and at the same time stand right by your side and let you know that, you know what, you're not going to fall over and die. I got you. You know, that's an amazing gift. They're not trying to fix you. They're not trying to make you better. They're just there with you saying, I got you. And we can, we can, we can bear this. We can bear this.

An example of that, which was with the, this last video of Nichols right before I was on my, Mr. Nichols. And you know, I can't bring myself to even say the name because I still haven't healed from that. And I was leaving the country, and I had a conversation with a very dear friend who was a four and she said to me, she said, Deborah, I called you because I was thinking of you when I watched this, and I know your heart. And she said, I don't want you to feel like all the work that you're doing is in vain. We, we know that it's going to get better. And I just want to be here for you just in case you need to talk, you know, not trying to fix me, not trying to justify or, you know, get into a deep discussion, but just letting me know that there was a presence there that was there for me if I need it, just to sit in silence with her. And that is something that fours offer that is very much needed because there are points in time, Micky, when we need that, we can't talk about it. We don't want to see it anymore. We just need a moment to take a breath and a four will breathe with you.

Micky: Yeah. Yeah. The way I think about it, Dr. E is that, you know, I, so, you know, being at point one, we have access to that four energy, that four power. So, I know when I'm in that four power, because a four, not only will they sit in the sackcloth and ashes with you, they will go get some more ashes and be like, I got this. I can handle some more. Let's do it. Bring it to me. They are in it. 

[both laugh]

Dr. Egerton: I know. Well, it's funny because I know with my line to four, and I don't want to get too deep into that because we're kind of staying at a level where everyone can understand, but there are connections to different points. And at one, we have a connection to four. And so, my four pity parties are particularly pitiful. [Micky laughs] I mean, when I get down there, I'm not finished until I have wallowed completely on the ground. You know? And then if I realize that there's nobody around to witness this, I may move myself to a room in the house where I can be heard. [Micky laughs] So, when I-

Micky: Mine is that I just say, I'll do whatever I have to do, but I'm going to have to cry

about it first. But then it's fine. [laughs]

Dr. Egerton: Then it's okay. It's okay. And at the same time, because ones and fours really understand each other at a very deep level, sometimes I'll have to turn around to my four friend and say, don't get caught up in the overwhelm of all of this. I'm going to be okay, you know? So, it's kind of taking care of each other. But those are the two, the three and the four in the heart center, but in three very different ways. Very different. But each of them has that superpower.

And then when we go out to our head center, we have the fives, the six and the seven. And I call the head center types bridge builders, because they're the types that have the energy to sort of develop the plan, to figure it out, to look at all that we're trying to do and to just kind of, to use a vernacular, come correct and be on point. [Micky laughs] There's just a beautiful way of the way we know the fives can see the big picture of things. And so, we'll look at the historical evolution of something so that we don't make the wrong moves in the present because we haven't taken in the facts from the past. And then looking at how what we do in the present will actually affect the trajectory of what we're trying to achieve in the future. No one does that like a five. So, in point five, this is a beautiful thing to watch happen. The taking in of the whole picture.

At point six, the bridge building comes making sure that everything is taken into consideration to make sure that the plan is executable. So, sixes help us to know what moves to make when. I've always said, if there was ever a natural disaster, I want to know where all my six friends live. They're going to know the escape routes, the evacuation places, all the things that, and the supplies are already going to be in the trunk of their car. And if we can't use cars, they've got enough bicycles for us to all get out of town. But the sixes will- being prone to that worst case scenario thinking and having a committee in their heads are so vital to the actions that we take and the plans that we make because they help us not to make a lot of mistakes, not to lose a lot of time, because it hasn't been well thought out. Sixes are just undeniably adept at being able to make sure and to look over any plans about doing something, particularly, you know, in a social justice movement, just calling out what's missing, what's missing, who's missing and what to do.

And then when we come to point seven, I always laugh by the time I get through, finish talking about all the other types. I'm praying that there's still a couple of sevens left in the room. [Micky laughs] I'm just hoping they haven't all left, you know, but this work does have a weight to it. There is a heaviness to it, a serious nature to it that can sometimes just weigh you down. And what I have found in looking at how the sevens are the bridge builders is because the sevens enter with an energy of positive expectation of being able to lift you up and sometimes just make you laugh when you need to, of innovation. You know, you all are trying to do it this way, but actually this is 2023. You know, it would be much better if we actually released several reels or TikToks or whatever it is that needs to be done. There's an innovation to whatever plans are created that just makes it better and makes us better. I've worked on a few teams where the seven energy was lacking and it became so serious and heavy laden that in those organizations, I was really very grateful when some seven’s stepped up and joined the team effort and the whole energy effort lifted. It just kind of lifted. I think you know, of course, that sevens are often our first responders in natural disasters because of the sort of the adrenaline. They want to be helpful. They want to be there where the action is. They can get in and get out without getting too caught up in it, but doing what they need to do, that is very helpful and useful at the time. So that shows you how every single one of the Enneagram energies has a gift, a superpower, something that they can bring to actually, as I say it, really lean on that moral arc to bend it towards justice. We can do that together, but we need all nine of those energies.

Micky: Yeah, yeah. And you know, I will say in the book, I forgot to hold up earlier. I do have

right here so people can see what it looks like. You go into the whole story, the whole picture, right? Kind of our, maybe our struggles, the things that are in our energies at each point that can get in our way and then what these superpowers are as well.

And I think sometimes when people come to Enneagram work, they just dive right into what's wrong with them or, you know, it's like people will say, oh, you know your type when you find the type that makes you feel the worst about yourself. And I don't love that personally, because especially for historically marginalized folks, I'm like, we are already told to feel bad about ourselves. Like we are pathologizing who we are often, right? And so, we're already trying to decolonize from what the mainstream has told us we are. So how about we actually start to look at what's good in us? What's right in us. And so again, my energy showing up there, but I don't think there's anything wrong with kind of looking at our assets.

And so, I think about that and I, you know, going back to the bridge builders, they, I think maybe, and I would love your take on this. I think sometimes they're the ones people don't think of as leaders in social change work. Like we can kind of see where, you know, eights, nines and ones where that energy is forceful. They're going to be out front, two, threes and fours, that heart. So, they're going to, you know, they're going to help with preparing and loving on people and that we can kind of see that.

But I really see where, I don't know if it's still around, but there was for a while, this thing called Data for Black Lives. And it was literally people who got together, they had conferences, all of these things pulling together all the data on what's happening in our social change movements. Like not saying all those people were fives, but like that's five energy right there, hardcore, you know, and like sixes, you know, like you're saying, planning. I mean, those are those people who are really, scenes work and asking the questions that keep us safe. You know, maybe those are our safety teams when we go out and, you know, like that's where maybe a six would plug in is on the safety team during a, you know, during a protest. And, you know, sevens, yes, that like lovely energy around fun, but also if you want somebody to help you come up with every possible idea for what you could do, then get them and tell them to dream big and you will get every idea on the planet, you know, and you'll get the puppets and the, you know, the, the we're also going to scale a wall at the same time. And we're also, you know, form a chain around the building or we're going to do all the things at once. 

Dr. Egerton: It's funny, Mickey, because that's one of the reasons that in the book, I give live examples of what each point looks like when they are in the process. And I use the umbrella term of othering because that's what it is when people are treating any group as less than. So, this whole process of othering that people have practiced from the beginning of time, we've always found someone who will be lower than, than lower than, than you are so that you can feel better about yourself. And it's a pretty crappy thing to do, but it's real and it's lifelong. And, you know, we can, we can, we can, we can see no end to it in the present tense, but when people are actively othering, we can see that we can recognize that because it's right out there in front. You, in the last question, you talked about waking up. The part of the world that will never wake up is very large.

And this is an area that I focus on in the book, all of the ways that each point of the enneagram engages in passive othering, in other words, not doing anything to make anything better. And in fact, by not doing anything, making things worse. So, it's examples of looking at what it looks like when someone is, is actively othering, which we can say, you know, white supremacist group, you know, that's active. You understand that people who are anti-Semitic, it's, it's, it's active. You can understand that, but when you, but when people are passively othering, where they just don't want to talk about it, or that has nothing to do with me, or I, you know, do I look like I had slaves? I didn't have slaves. So, I don't understand why I should even have to engage in this conversation. That kind of a putting on the blinders and not being willing to engage in what's actually happening in the present.

This is one of the most important parts of doing the work that we have to look at now, being in our bodies, opening up our heart space and being willing to release false narratives, to unlearn some things and relearn some things so that we can actually do the work, the real work of disassembling systemic patriarchal norms that have really taken so many of us and put us out on the margins of society. But if we don't do that real work, then things don't change. So, we want to actually get more people to move into the category of allies and advocates. And one of the most important points around being an ally is you don't get to call yourself an ally. You know, you have to be willing to work with the people who are being treated as less than, who are marginalized love warriors. And when we identify people as allies, then you know that you're doing that work. You're doing the work of an ally. But we have a lot of people in the category of passive othering who say that they're allies. The actions of an ally are visible. They're visible. And this is something that is really important. So, I think the examples help people to see what the actions are of people who embody each of those dominant energies and what it looks like when they're doing that work in social change, social justice.

Micky: Yeah. You know, and I think confusion around like who, whose work this is to do, you know, and I think any, anybody who's watching something like this, who's participating in something like this, you are, you have places of privilege and maybe places of marginalization. Most of us are going to have some, especially because all of us are going to get old. All of us, all of our bodies will break down. Right? So even if you are, you know, kind of the top of the ladder now at some point, older and frailer and as a society discriminate against that as well. So, we all have work to do because we're all in, you know, a mix of place of privilege and marginalization.

You know, I think about me as, you know, just as a Black woman, I come from, I think I'm third generation college on both sides. My, my one side, the other side, more working class, but that there are some areas of privilege there that I noticed, particularly if I am interacting with, you know, poorer people, I'm like, oh, it's very clear that I have had things like summer camp and college education and a master’s and right. So, it's like those, that is a place where I need to understand what it's really like immense poverty. It's just not, I've had times when I've been poor, but I don't understand that in the same way. And that is a place where I have privilege, right? I'm queer, but I'm a cis woman. I do not know what it's like to be a trans person. And I, and that is a place of deeper marginalization and I need to learn and understand from that. And I think one of the tools that helps people in your book is the humanity mosaic. I feel like that's, everybody loves it. Could you tell people about that? 

Dr. Egerton: So, the humanity mosaic is to explain to you that it's, it's sort of, it came from a place of not being able to identify with this imagery of being of living in a melting pot. And that's what I was taught growing up that particularly the United States was a melting pot. And now the world is becoming a melting pot. Well, a melting pot is something where we all jump in it and we all just sort of stir it all. And then you get, I mean, the image didn’t work for me! No, no, you can do that if you want to, but I mean, I gotta be me. Okay.

[both laughing]

And so, what I love about the world is the deep, rich, exciting, interesting diversity of each and every one of us, you know, and my, my superpower is love. It's true love for humanity. And so, you know, if someone said to me, what is your mission? My mission is to heal humanity in whatever way possible, but I want humanity to be able to stand out as a mosaic for each and every one of us. We, we are bright, shiny jewels in this mosaic of differences. And that when we stand back and we look at the mosaic of humanity, it's just awe inspiring. It's awe inspiring. Our differences are beautiful. Our differences are things that we should be able to actually have appreciative curiosity about, you know, wanting to know more, wanting to learn more about one another and how we navigate the world based on where we come from in the world. And in the mosaic, what I show is, you know, it looks like a big brain and then you see all these different tiles. But that ring, that very first ring in the center, I have, you know, your, your sort of the Enneagram point is right there in the center.

And then around that are all the things that you didn't get to choose that created Micky, you know, all the things that you didn't get to go to the front of the line and say, excuse me, but could you make me a little bit taller? You know, if I could have gone to the front of the line, I would have said, all right, I want to be a little bit taller. And I don't want to be born until about 1980. [Micky laughs] That'd be good. And by the way, can I have some athletic ability, you know, or at least some athletic knowledge. So, I know the difference between a football, and soccer. I am, I am none of it.

But when you look at all of the things that people are actually penalized, judged, and stereotyped on, it's the things that they didn't choose. The things that were given to us as gifts from the divine, the creator, the universe, however you look at it. But we did not put ourselves together. We didn't do that. And then here and we judge each other, and we treat each other sometimes terribly based on that. And recognizing that the package that you live in often determines what's going to, you know, what, what, what is going to happen in your life. If you were born to who were wealthy, you probably got to go to decent schools. If you were born to parents who were poor, you didn't. If there's so many variables there that, you know, I would have to tell people just buy the book and read it because it's really deep and rich and it helps you to really think and to feel into the reality of each individual's privilege.

Now, I do want to stop for a moment with that word privilege because I unpack that for people and particularly as a one, I always say, you know, I can be right or I can take the time to actually help you shift your heart. And people hear the language white privilege, the defenses go up because when people hear white privilege, what is often heard is you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and you never worked a day for anything you have. Somebody said that to me, my defenses will go up. Okay. Because I've worked hard and I do have privilege as do you, as does any person that we can look at in some way, shape or form, they may have something that someone else does not have, but I call that an automatic advantage so that people can understand that what is meant in this context, when we talk about privilege is advantages that you were born into.

For instance, if you were born with white skin as opposed to black skin, you have more advantages when you're trying to navigate through the obstacles of the world. You don't have to fight for everything that should be a right for you to have. So, the navigation of the world is easier for you if your skin is white than if your skin is black. Do people, you know, it's Elon Musk, it's his children. Will they have more sort of material advantages than our children do? Well, probably because he can buy them anything, buy them a rocket ship and take them to the moon. If this all goes, but it's understanding the context behind privilege, it's what can you access that someone else gets stopped at the door because of their skin or the way they worship or how they identify in terms of gender identity. That's an automatic advantage to be cisgendered, white, to be Christian in this country. The whole list of what the dominant norms are.

And so, I spend a lot of time on that in the book because I want people to understand deeply. You'll never stay the course on doing this type of work if you don't take it in, not just here, but it's got to, you have to understand it. It has to touch your heart in a way where you recognize, ouch, you know, I never thought about the fact that Deborah Egerton wouldn't have the life that she has had it not been for my father having worked for a short time for the railroads and therefore he could get a mortgage at a bank when other black people could not, you know, and it's deep, Micky, it's deep. People don't want to go that deep, but if you look at it, yeah, it makes a difference.

Micky: And you, you have the book, but you also teach this in courses. I know you have, you know, cohorts, you take people through this if they want to go deeper for themselves or they want to become practitioners of your work. Dr. E, thank you so much for your time tonight, for sharing so much. Just the tip of the iceberg. There's so much more in the book. There's so much on your website. You have a whole library, essentially, on your website. You have videos. You have articles. I mean, just so many resources for people to check out. So y'all go check that out. And keep up with all the things Dr. E is doing. I feel like you are always on the go and always teaching somewhere online, in person. You can really catch her all over the place. So, thank you so much for being here and being with me. You're always amazing. And I cannot wait to hug your neck this summer at the IEA Conference. 

Dr. Egerton: I know, I know, I know! That's going to be so wonderful. Don't forget to bring your shoes. I want my dance lesson.

[both laughing]

Micky: We will definitely do that. So, everyone, we hope you have a great night. Like I always

say, we will see you later. Good night.

Dr. Egerton: Good night.

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

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