CIIS Public Programs Podcast

transcript

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[Cheerful theme music begins] 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Spiritual teacher and international bestselling author Deepak Chopra believes there is an inner path to prosperity and wealth that—once charted and explored—offers access to the great riches of the universe and life’s unbounded possibilities. In his latest book Abundance: The Inner Path to Wealth, Deepak illuminates this road to success and wholeness, sharing a guide to a life of true power, prosperity, and plenty. In this episode, CIIS Chair of Integrative Health Studies Meg Jordan joins Deepak for a conversation exploring how to tap into a deeper sense of awareness to become an agent of change in your own life. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on March 17th, 2022. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

[Theme music concludes] 

Meg Jordan: Deepak, I have to say it is a complete joy to enter into this dialogue with you now. You know, I have been in- may not remember but maybe a couple decades ago, I got to benefit from being in a kind of an orbit around you in which Global Medicine Hunter shows were launched in all, you were part of that effort, and I know what it's like to actually have a first-hand experience of being in that creative intelligence flow state with you. So many, many years of generosity and gratitude in my heart for all of your life work.  

Deepak Chopra: Thank you, Meg, it is a privilege to be with you. 

Meg: Thank you. So fun to be able to talk about this concept of evolutionary flow of human awareness, because you've got references to that throughout this wonderful book. In fact, this book reads like chapters one by one. This practical guide. It's almost a- it's almost like a practical living counterpart to what we do at CIIS. Helping create change agents and helping people find their voice and expression and healing trauma. And letting go of limited beliefs. As I read each chapter, as you bring people along the chakra system, I thought “this is it. This is the practical everyday language guide.” So, how did you come into a feeling that abundance and prosperity needed this inner path? 

Deepak: Thank you. Thank you, Meg. 

Meg: I know that it's a, it's a time too, of the great resignation of people worried about inflation. They're worried about their own, all the world crises, the uncertainty. So, I thought my goodness, how are Deepak and I going to talk about abundance as an inner path, an inner path to wealth when there is this zeitgeist of worry out there about money and prosperity. So, this was a brave stance on your part, and it has also got to do with this ways to maximize abundance and life. You've said you need to use your awareness better and better every day. In other words, you need to evolve. Whoa. What a huge statement! You know, what are your expectations right now, that the spiritual seekers here, that come to CIIS, for rigorous academics, that they are in a state ready to evolve? 

Deepak: So, Meg, people always ask me and I'm sure they ask you: do you have hope? And I think hope is an oxymoron. You only have hope and there's despair. It implies despair. So, I don't actually believe in hope, I believe in reality, and reality is what you just use the expression: creative intelligence. We are definitely in a moment of transition right now or might say crossroads. One path right now, if I may be honest, leads to sleepwalking into extinction with everything that's happening. War, terrorism, ecodestruction, extinction of species, mechanized ways of killing each other, and global crisis, economic pandemics, mass migrations, anxiety, financial crises as well. That is one road, the other road: good. If there is a shift in collective consciousness, lead to a more peaceful, just sustainable, healthier, and joyful world. The technologies are there, just like there are diabolical technologies. We now have technologies for resurrection of species. We know a lot about the human and planetary microbiome, we have technologies, believe it or not, for reversing climate change. And we have creative solutions to conflict and war and racism and prejudice and all of that.  

Now, it depends where the critical mass of consciousness goes. One is the way of evolution as you said, and the other is the way of near total destruction. As a anthropologist, you probably know that if insects and, and plan- ants disappeared from our planet, life would cease in five years. If humans disappeared from this planet, life would flourish in five years. [Meg: Yes, it would keep going.] We would return to the age of innocence and the Garden of Eden with the human- few humans left. So, it's up to nature and we are nature's self-awareness. So, let's see what happens. I wrote the book because as I said, not only is a crossroads, is what's called a phase transition in biological systems in societies, even in, even in material systems. There are things called phase transitions. For example, when water boils, there is turbulence. So, we're seeing that hopefully soon, the water will become steam and the turbulence will fade. So that's why I wrote the book. 

Meg: Thank you for that. And thank you. I share that same feeling about hope, just hanging on to hope. It's much more comforting to me to look at the natural flow of nature and creative intelligence. You know that this is an evolution. I mean, in some ways, it's remarkably aligned with the philosophy of Sri Aurobindo, who was really the spiritual father of CIIS, and his protege and his disciple, Dr. Haridas Chaudhari here in the West who founded the school, and it was really bringing his 20th century interpretation of Vedantic philosophy, a philosophy you know in your heart, you know it up and down your spine. It's your integral yoga as well.  

And, and it was a philosophy that said advancing consciousness is real. Consciousness is not static, you know, and as I read each chapter of the book, I got to one about the futile acts of worry and inertia and denial and wishful thinking, I was reminded of that radio show that you helped me produce. And this book, The Secret, came out and the lights lit up! People saying, “I tried this. I'm not manifesting any great wealth! This is just more New Age nonsense, New Age thinking, witchcraft, I’m poorer than I've ever been.” So, there was never this, this true understanding of the inner process, inner reality that you talk about in this book. You know, and I just- it's the key. I think a lot of it is understanding the Dharmic path. Dharma. Wow, it was wonderful to run across this concept in your book too, you know, that we are in our Dharma now. We are making choices now. Is that your take on it?  

Deepak: Yeah, since you mentioned Vedantic philosophy and all the Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, and the non-dual traditions of the East. Anyway, the four goals of life, are Dharma, Kama, Artha, and Moksha [Meg: Moksha.] our mind is, you know, finding your place in the universe at every level. Kama is sensual delight, you know, Kama is very frequently misunderstood because people are familiar with the word Kama Sutra, which is an aspect of Kama and pleasure, but Kama actually is sensual delight through the five senses. And when you- these days, people use the word mindfulness. Yes, which by the way, I don't- 

Meg: You’re not fond of that one either. [laughing gently] 

Deepak: -because the original word is vipassana, which means discernment. So, when you have full awareness of every sensory experience, then it helps you go beyond what is called subject-object split. So, Kama is a means to unity consciousness. That's the second goal of life. The third goal of life is Artha, A-R-T-H-A, which translates into money and wealth. So, you know the non-dual traditions do not think that making money is not spiritual. In fact, money is a means of exchange of values. So, in the book, I start out with something called the Soul Profile and if you understand your innermost values and you operate in an ecosystem of similar values, then the exchange of those values generates wealth in all its forms. And the final goal of life is Moksha, which means freedom from suffering, which basically is freedom from the five Kleshas or the causes of human suffering, the five Kleshas. Our number one, not knowing what reality is. Number two, grasping and clinging at experience which is transient, ephemeral, non-graspable and impermanent. The third is recoiling from the same. The fourth is identifying with your ego. In other words, sacrificing yourself for your selfie and fifth is the fear of old age, infirmity, and death. So th- the scriptures say that if you understand the first one, reality, and then you actually- all the others disappear because they were phantoms of not knowing what reality is. In a way, the book goes through a process to achieve Dharma, Kama, Artha, and Moksha. 

Meg: Yes. Moksha, right. I know, I underlined all those parts right there, that was thrilling for me. Honestly. I mean, I've been a longtime meditator, but just recently, I've decided to reawaken an actual yoga practice, you know. [Deepak: Oh, wonderful.]  So I get this 70 year old body on the floor every morning and I was grunting and groaning for the first three months and now I can actually kind of feel the clearing of [INDISCERNIBLE], you know, that, that sense of a heart-opening that sense of an expanded- I don't know what it is, nervous system that can accommodate the hearing about the pain of the world and not crumbling in that moment. So, there's this, this yoga that teaches you, as you said, to occupy, the inner and the outer, the worlds that are actually one reality and all those guiding principles that you just mentioned. They're embedded within the Vedantic philosophy. It’s- this is the- this is the real gold stone in this book for me because I have had friends say, “when are you going to talk to Deepak about money? That's good because I'm completely worried about my 401k and this and that and should I move and what about the great resignation? Work seems to be meaningless now.” And I thought, “well, if your work is meaningless, you know, there's something in this book for you right now, because meaning and purpose are also tied.” If you could talk about that a minute? 

Deepak: Yes, you know, you mentioned yoga and you mentioned yoga asana, which is what people associate yoga with. The yogas. And that's a very good word. By the way, yoga is not the physical practice of yoga. Asana means ‘seat of awareness’. So, all the different yogic postures are different seats of awareness, but yoga includes the Yamas, the Niyamas, the yoga asanas, pranayama, pratyahara, which is these days called introception, the dhyana samadhi. So very complete system for actually achieving going beyond waking, dreaming, sleeping into what is called Turiya, transcendental consciousness, cosmic consciousness,  divine consciousness, and unity consciousness, and along the way, there is generosity of spirit, which also translates into [Meg: Yeah.] money, you know, when people talk about spirituality of the spiritual experience and these days, it’s very fashionable to say “I’m spiritual but I'm not religious,” but actually the religious experience and the spiritual experience are identical and there are only three components to it.  

The first is finding your true identity beyond space time, which we call non-local. The second is the emergence of platonic values like truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, love compassion, joy, equanimity. And the third is the loss of the fear of death. Now, if you had those three then infinite abundance flows because there's no anxiety; anxiety is a property of the conditioned mind. And generosity of spirit is beyond the secret passages and the dark alleys and ghost filled attics, the conditioned mind. So that's my take on yoga. And why yoga actually is the key; yoga is not a mental practice. Yoga is the absence of mental practice. In fact, when you read the, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, which is still the most authoritative text, the second verse of the first chapter, the first was just now the teaching of yoga begins, but the second verse actually says it all, it says, yoga is the progressive silencing of the vrittis, vrittis are fluctuations of consciousness that appear as sensations and perceptions, images, feelings, and thoughts, which we then conceptualize as mind, body, and universe. But actually mind, body, and universe are human constructs. There's no such thing.  

Meg: No such thing. And I think I ran across that concept years ago, and it was- the first studying mind-body medicine and I picked up Quantum Healing. Oh my God. I love that book. That was my absolute favorite. It was my Bible next to my bed for a long time because in that book, you found the intermediary between mind-body; everybody was searching for molecules of emotion and everything. And you said it's consciousness. This is the intermediary and that just lights went on from there. And I went, “oh my goodness. How do we actually create shifts in consciousness on this planet? This is where, this is where the big work has to happen, I honestly believe.” And there's, there's also a nice permission given in the book Abundance, where we don't have to struggle against things all the time. We get to look over the positive choices. I really recommend that people get this book and write their own soul profile. I took time to do that. The soul profile, you know, from peak experiences, from values, from what I saw in relationships, unique gifts and talents. It's really worthwhile to start with that. And the other thing that I want to mention too, is so profound, is that so many spiritual workshops I've gone to, they all start with, “let's ground with the root chakra, everybody. And now let's work our way up to the more heavenly ones. The seventh one!” Instead, you do a complete reversal. 

Deepak: Well, you know, if in the Christian traditions, they say seek the kingdom of heaven first and everything else comes. And kingdom of heaven is not a castle in the sky, but a state of highest consciousness, unity consciousness. And of course, in the yogic traditions, they say the same thing, seek the highest first and everything else comes. So, I decided to reverse the order. And also, by the way, you know, we use this word consciousness or even mind or body and I go to a lot of conferences where I ask people, can you define each of these? And nobody has a good definition. And yet we're all talking about consciousness. So, I think it'd be good to clarify what I mean here, by consciousness or awareness. I used both synonymously.  

So, consciousness has been said by Sri Aurobindo and many others. It’s non-conceptualizeable because it's the source of all concepts. And it is that in which all experience occurs, every experience including this one occurs in consciousness, you know, I was thinking the other day, if you slap yourself on the hand, say where is the experience happening? It's happening here in the hand. But actually, it's happening in the awareness. It is projected. So, all experience, including the experience of the body of what we call the body is in awareness. So, consciousness is that in which all experience occurs. It's also that in which all experience is known, and it is that out of which all experience is made in the form of sensations, perceptions, images, feelings, thoughts. And then, then there's the creative intelligence aspect of consciousness, which is literally infinite possibilities. Also unpredictable, not random, unpredictable, which is completely different from random. Random means inherently random. Unpredictable means seemingly random to the human mind. Consciousness is self-organizing, itself evolving and self-regulating. It's a field of infinite possibilities. It's infinitely creative, unpredictable, and also, the source of what we call attention and intention, when- and it makes leaps of creativity, you know, I have been criticized for using the word quantum leap, but quantum leap is a discontinuity. You move from one context, one story, one meaning, one set of relationships, or dealing with relationships to a new meaning, new context, new ways of dealing with relationships, new stories. So, it's a death and resurrection, which is really actually what the virgin birth is ultimately, and what it means to be born again. And it includes amongst other things, the dark night of the soul which again is very well expressed in eastern and western traditions. 

Meg: All of the things that we traverse in this rising self-awareness in this increasing self-awareness, exactly, being able to have these principles of Dharma and commonly known as a, as a roadmap, as the- is a way to actually reverse the order that we're usually doing in spiritual workshops of grounding and then elevating. Sri Aurobindo was kind of radical at the same time. Doing the same thing. He said, no, let's start with the top and let's bring this down. Let's root this. So, it was fascinating to read that order in which you presented it in this book. I also really dug the epilogue because you said, you know, there’s a lot of people walking around, trying to increase their spirituality by just looking at how loving they are or how much self-esteem they have, but what the world could really use right now is wisdom. Wisdom has often been kind of overlooked or dismissed as old-fashioned, but your take on wisdom in that epilogue just about brought tears to my eyes because I thought this is- now, now we're not just affirming spirituality as a core value here, but we're moving it, we’re putting wheels on its bus, you know, we're taking it out into life and everyday experience.  

Deepak: Yeah, it's again, confusion around the term wisdom. So, so data, information, knowledge, and wisdom are completely different things. Data is today's temperature is 72 degrees, where I am in the Middle East at the moment. Knowledge is, it's a good day to walk outside and information is, you know, what's happening outside, and wisdom is, how do I use data, information, and knowledge to nurture existence and evolve consciousness? So yeah. Nobody talks about wisdom these days, they talk about information. 

Meg: Information, self-esteem. Exactly. It falls short there. I absolutely also thought if we could say something to the people who are toiling at jobs in which they feel unfulfilled and yet there- if they could do the soul profile, they would find that they're just, it's not aligned with their core values, you know, any word of advice for them?  

Deepak: Yeah, the soul profile is basically what your innermost values are. If you want your bio, you can go to LinkedIn and you can decide based on your bio. [laughs gently] But actually it was yesterday, in New York. I just flew out last night to the Middle East. And I went to LinkedIn. I said you should include the soul profile along with the bio. They were actually pretty receptive to it. 

Meg: They were! Good, good. 

Deepak: You could find jobs based on your soul profile. 

Meg: Oh my gosh. Would that be great? You see that, Indeed doing that instead, my goodness. Well, we know that there's social and political considerations in this, you know, we sit with this agony of the war in Ukraine. We want- I watch the news. I'm a newshound and, and at that point I’m trying to practice a loving kindness meditation. I'm making sure that my own circle of connections is filled with joy and love and fulfillment. But other than that, I've heard from people that they get a big dose of guilt if they start thinking about their own prosperity while watching migrant refugees and, and watching injustice, watching people with less. We know that there are ZIP codes in the U.S. in which a lifespan is incredibly shortened compared to another because of eons of injustice. But to be burdened with a sense of guilt about money or prosperity. There's no sentence within this book that recommends that. That says operate from guilt.  

Deepak: Peace and prosperity should go together. Guilt is a kind of a Judeo-Christian institute- institutionalization of shame and it all begins with the separate self. You know, when you feel separate and there is anger, resentment, maybe hostility. So it begins with trauma; trauma is the source of anger and resentment and grievances. And that can lead to the anticipation of pain in the future, which we call anxiety and fear. And if you direct that to yourself, that's guilt, which leads to shame and humiliation, which leads to the number one epidemic of our time: depression, which leads to the recycling of trauma. And that's what we are seeing generation after generation after generation and people think oh, you know if you had enough money, we’d solve this, but money that is coming from the exchange of values actually creates peace, and peace and prosperity should go together. Hard work, exacting plans, driving ambition, can give you a measure of success, but a very high cost of stress and heart attacks and rotten teeth and anxiety and depression. All of that. 

Meg: I think of early years in my own career where I worked hard, driving, and not fulfilled  and not joyful. And seeing, seeing that this is a road to having some of those stressors that create chronic disease that I've been talking about. So, to get into this evolutionary flow of human awareness requires that I had to discern, I had to say, what am I willing to give up in order to go for these core values of bliss, intelligence, creative expression, love, the seven gifts that you talk about, creative intelligence, successful actions, sensual pleasure, and security, safety. All of them aligning with deep work that you have people do in each chapter, with a nice inquiry; we love inquiry. We love reflective questions at CIIS, this is so aligned with us. A deep inquiry into each of the chakra systems where these gifts of creative intelligence come about. You must have come into your own deep inquiry over the years. I mean, there you were, practicing physician, young, in Boston, working yourself into a frenzy, as well. Right, there had to be moments of awakening. 

Deepak: Absolutely. 

Meg: Yeah, so let's start with some chakra work. We've only got about 25 minutes left here. And I just think that people will be surprised when they open a book on abundance, wealth, and they go, “he's writing about chakras. What is this all about?” Instead, I want them to really understand that these qualities of doing a, not just a clean out, but an expansion of each chakra actually does put you on this path of wealth. 

Deepak: Chakra, you know, means ‘wheel’ and it's also a good way to translate that into the wheels of awareness, of the centers of awareness, and their junction points between consciousness and biology and actually, if you understand the chakras, well, they're an extension of Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So, you know, survival, integrity, sensual delight, transformation, material success, love and belonging, creative expression, intuition, insight, archetypal consciousness and transcendence. That's what they are.  

Meg: Self-actualization. That's true. It goes from there up, yeah that’s true…hmmm… 

Deepak: Yeah, so that's- 

Meg: So that crown chakra, what I loved in this is there's a meditation for each one. There's an understanding of location in the body. And then there's a, there's a, is it a mantra for each one? [Deepak: Mhm.] Yeah, a mantra for each one.  

Deepak: So again, you know, if you're familiar with what people call Tantra, the correct pronunciation is Tantra. Tantra means ritual. And so, Tantra, Mantra, Yantra go together. Tantra is the ritual. The practices. Mantra is the sound. And Yantra is the visual or the intended outcome and so Tantra, Mantra, Yantra. And then, of course, the last three aspects of yoga are Dharana, which is focused attention, intention. Dhyana, which is meditation, and Samadhi, which is transcendence. So, you know, because people don't understand these terms, I tried to put them in English to the best of my ability.  

Meg: You did, you did and the root chakra, lam and aum, for sacral chakra. And the solar plexus chakra with ram and I spent a lot of time with heart chakra, yum? [Deepak: Yam.] Yam, thank you. After a heartbreak. [Deepak: Oh!] And it was, it was actually within its deep-seated meditation. And being with that sound vibration. It is a, it just feels like a glow and a healing energy that can take place. So, I recommend people go through this book and actually do the practices of each chakra and the meditations and the Mantra that accompanies them. And not just fly through this thing, but actually spend time with it in the source of bliss. At that seventh, seventh chakra, you know, being able to start with that top of the head right there and to bring in a sense of oneness and wholeness as well. I've never been able to do a practice that started with that…Ananda. Is that your word? Ananda? 

Deepak: Yeah, the fundamental realities in Sanskrit called sat, which means existence. Chit which means awareness and Ananda, which means bliss so sat, existence, chit, awareness, ananda, bliss. Bliss is not happiness. Happiness is a mental state, the opposite of sadness and you know, as long as we're alive, we vacillate between happiness, sadness. You can't have one without the other, just like you can’t have hot without cold or up without down or pleasure without pain. Again, in the non-dual traditions, the physical body is referred to as the karmic body or the conceptual body because it's a concept for a changing set of vrittis of fluctuations. [Meg: Fluctuations.] Fluctuations or vibrations of consciousness. So, what we call the physical body is not a noun. It's a verb. In the sense there is no physical body. You, if you say I have a body then which one? You started as a fertilized egg, then you're a zygote, then you're an embryo, then you’re a baby. Then you’re a toddler. Then you’re a teenager, young adult, all the way to dusty death, so that the body is a concept for fluctuations, and it's also referred to as the karmic body, because if you close your eyes and do nothing, you'll become very aware immediately that you're speaking to yourself. And that internal dialogue is a story of karma, past experiences, and how we operate and that includes both pleasure and pain. But beyond those pleasure and pain bodies is what we call the subtle body which is mind, intellect, and ego. And then beyond that is the bliss body. Now, of course, the Buddhists have their own terms, you know, the rainbow body, etc, etc. But actually, that's the sequence. Physical body is fluctuations of perception. Mental body is- or subtle bodies, fluctuations of cognition, and then the bliss body is the absence of both, and it is the source of all experience. We're not dealing with the experience, with dealing with the source of all experience, which then is such at ananda. It’s existence, it’s pure consciousness. And it's, it's bliss.  

If you ask everybody, if you ask somebody, where is this experience happening right now, you know, this experience where happening, of course, one would say it's happening on Zoom or my computer, but then there are other people sharing this perceptual and cognition- cognitive space with a certain bandwidth. And so, experience is actually happening in awareness. No matter where it is projected on Zoom or on a screen or to the body, to the mind. The experience is happening in awareness and that awareness is right in front of you. It's not in your brain. You know, try this exercise. I askpeople. Where are you? They say I'm here and I say where's Deepak? And they point at me, you're there. That's a perceptual artifact, really. Because of the subject-object split which is artificial. The experiences where we are right here, right here means in the space in front of you and space, I mean literally space. The space in front of you or the space inside this cup and outside this cup or the space between breath or the space between thought and the space between emotions or the space between intention or the space between the imagination; it’s the same space and it's here and the space has no boundaries.  

So, if I, instead of going from the fluctuations, even visually, I put my attention on space right here, you know, also, as people look around you. What do you see? They name objects. They never name the space. They name objects, the never- yet without the space. There are no objects and the objects themselves are modifications of space. So actually, there's only space and the space is not an empty void. It's imbued with infinite consciousness. So where is infinite consciousness? Right in front of you, right behind you right, both sides of you, up and down and you don't have to search for it. It's right here. And this is called chit akash. Akash means the infinite space. Chit means imbued with consciousness and one of the tricks is people say, how do I silence my mind? All you have to do is be aware of space. That's it. [Meg: Yes.] And mediate, the space is the eternal witness of all that was, all that is, all that will ever be. And it's been there before space-time because this is not what we call space-time; space-time is within the chit akash, which is beyond space time. You can ask questions of it, intentions. It's God before God conceives, constructs, governs, and becomes what we call reality. 

Meg: We wind up it-less. That's it. There's a, there's a meditation process I've been doing called space consciousness, in which you go within and picture the space of every cell in your being, you know, so that the nucleus is like an apple in a football field, you know, and you get to kind of just have this sensory moment of, I don't know you maybe got microsecond of a non-dual state and- 

Deepak: And what the apple and the football field are also made out of space.  

Meg: That’s right. It's just a little tool for my mind to accompany me a little bit on these things. That's right, you know, remember that period in time, when all of a sudden there was a plethora of happiness, books, how to achieve happiness, happiness for you? And there was all sorts of pathways to it. And then in my interviewing, because I’m both a journalist and an anthropologist, I found that people were saying, “This whole bit on happiness. It seems to be a dubious achievement. It seems to come and go. Maybe I should just settle for contentment,” you know, and there was a- there was a bit of a backlash about it as well. And people were saying “it denies the negative emotions. That's my full spectrum of humanity. You know, I have a whole repertoire of feelings within me, and I shouldn't just be on a happiness train.” I think, just what you said. It's not the nature of reality, happiness. But bliss consciousness. 

Deepak: Yeah, again in yoga, you know, you have the five Yamas, which are actually translated as maybe social intelligence. And then you have the five Niyamas, which are inner intelligence, and they begin with Saucha, which is mental and um- and physical hygiene. Santosha, which means contentment. And then Tapas, which means the sacrifice of the absolute for the relative. Svadhyaya, which means self-study. And finally, Ishvarapranidhana, which means, surrender to the divine or the masti- mystery of existence, because ultimately you give up because the- the reality is not conceptualizeable and so you finally have to surrender [Meg: let go, let go, stop trying to take-] That would be ultimate joy because it has nothing to think about, worry about, pursue. The very word pursuit of happiness implies sadness.  

Meg: The pursuit itself. 

Deepak: It’s part of our constitution unfortunately. 

Meg: That’s it. Right back with the- the frenzied workload. And if I think of pursuit too much, you know, I think of how Joseph Campbell would be telling people to follow your bliss, you know, this was a- maybe something embedded into the culture back then about the fact that bliss did have a spiritual ground of being. 

Deepak: Yeah, bliss is Dharma. Follow your bliss is follow your Dharma. 

Meg: And the Dharma, everybody listening. Fill out your soul profile in this book and get more in touch with what I call true self. I think you have many ways you refer to that authentic self, the real self, getting in touch with it. And there's a, there's a great question I saw posed to you once about. Well, what if somebody's really into a criminal mind and enjoys crime and making a lot of money for it. They feel that that's their value, that's their Dharma versus the street sweeper who says, I'm doing something good for public hygiene. This is my value. Aren’t they both following their Dharma? 

Deepak: From a state of awareness. Yes, being a- because everybody is doing the best they can from the state of awareness they’re in. And that actually is a very good way to look at it because then there's no judgment, you know, if your- if your values are cigarettes and alcohol and pornography and guns. You can make a lot of money, just go to Las Vegas and create your own ecosystem. But you- [Meg: You’ll find you’re like-minded.], you'll graduate from there and keep graduating till there's nothing left by- other than God or the Divine. 

Meg: I like that. I like the emptiness of it. I don't know if emptiness means that something's missing. That's not even the word. 

Deepak: The fullness, yeah, the fullness of it. 

Meg: Thank you. Boy, words get in the way once you get to that [Deepak: Yeah.], that atmospheric place. There's a lot of ways in, which I kind of sense people kind of clutching onto the ego’s agenda when they hear about money and prosperity. And I need to get out of this hole I've been in and Covid years of disappearing prosperity. And boy- 

Deepak: The ego is your selfie. We've sacrificed ourselves for our selfies. 

Meg: For selfies. It’s the selfies. I like that. I need to do more. I am not enough. That's an ego sentence. I am not enough. This doesn't fit with me, these very concrete identities now. We've got a politics of- of slaying identities and all this kind of concrete stuff about. Who am I? It's not true self. It's not expressing as well. 

Deepak: Every identity is provisional. So that's what happens with the- what the spiritual traditions called The Dark Night of the Soul. Because you have to slowly give up every identity you’ve assumed. And once you start doing that, there's anxiety, you know, when Jesus is walking to the cross. There are three episodes. One is he falters. And Joseph of Arimathea tries to help him, and he says, I must bear my own cross. Then the second incident is when he's being nailed and he looks at God, or he looks up at the heavens. And he says, “why did you desert me?” [Meg: Forsaken me, yeah.] And then the third is when he says, forgive them. They know not what they do. That's a- everyone's journey, by the way. That's everyone's journey. We have to bear our own cross. We do go through moments of doubt, and finally realize the truth. And then we die to the selfie. And we are born again to the self. That's the death and the resurrection. And the Virgin birth. 

Meg: We’re coming up to an Easter time in which we can take what has been that- that experience, extraordinary human experience, shared human experience and do a bit of reframing for it personally to understand that these are- these are milestones in one's life as well. I want to do a little work with you on sixth chakra, right? This intelligence place, knowingness place of intuition and awe. I think we see people trying to follow their instincts, follow their intuition. When it's still clouded, when there's obviously still roadblocks to it, and they want that subtler power of the mind to steer them. But they- at this point they may still be in a place where the rational mind is entering in and blocking intuition at a deeper level, right? I wonder how they can- how they can move through this. 

Deepak: Well, intuition is not a mental- spiritual. Intuition is beyond the mind. Intuition is knowingness, as you just said. It's a form of intelligence that is contextual. It is relational. It is realistic. It doesn't have a windows orientation and it eavesdrops on the cosmic mind, and it's much more accurate than anything in the realm of rational thought. Rational thought is built on what are called magical lies and magical lies are created by our perceptual experiences, which are learned phenomenon. You know, every perception is inaccurate. My perception tells me the Earth is flat. Nobody believes that anymore. My perception tells me I'm sitting on a ground that is stationary and it's moving at dizzying speeds and hurtling through space and time at thousands of miles an hour. My perception tells me my body is solid and it's proportionately as void as intergalactic space. So, every perception is a magical lie, but we need perception for our body-mind, which is also an illusion, to survive. So, we are actually living in a virtual reality right now, the body-mind and the world, including the planet, and the two trillion galaxies, and the 706 trillion stars. And the uncountable trillions of planets are part of God's dream. That's it. 

Meg: It’s the dream. It is the dream. And I wonder with- with it, the perennial wisdoms, whether it's Buddhism Hinduism and all, they've all kind of pointed to this dream, the dream of Brahma, and I know that I listen to this and I think I just read something about computer scientists trying to hard wire, not just logic, but intuition into artificial intelligence into seeing if an AI computer program can actually start to dip into what humans would consider intuition, which is wild. 

Deepak: And there will be, there will be advanced computation. There will be quantum computers, which will expand the experience of the- they will upgrade the illusion anyway, and that's a good thing. [Meg: Upgrade the illusion. That’s the best.] With the illusion, we might as well upgrade it.  

Meg: That’s right, and it's entertaining at that point as well. Maybe bigger and bigger and better video games. Who knows where that's going. Oh, my goodness. I do love the fact that this path along the chakras can help people start to retire the us versus them thinking, you know, that maybe they don't have little micro moments of non-duality yet. But- but there's- they're creeping towards it on little cat feet, you know. There's something happening with the, the book of miracles used to try to eliminate right, so that whole us them mentality and you come into greater compassion, greater empathy. These are the fruits of working the chakra system as well. Yeah. Geez, thank you for hanging out at Chakra Six with me. And Chakra Five, I thought, oh my gosh, I'm a little nervous talking to Deepak Chopra. Come on, do some work on here, polish this one up. Is it spinning the right way? How's my self-expression going? There are many, many people working with others right now to say, “Speak your truth, stand in your truth. Stand in your authentic self to right the wrongs of oppression, injustice, violence and war.” I listened to the Ukraine President give his message and I thought, wow, he is truly standing in a place of Fifth Chakra wide open, wide open, being fed by the heart, being fed by wisdom. We're getting to see more examples somehow in the world right now. Now, this- this fills me with excitement. Despite the agonies we see too. The eloquence in which he spoke. He was aligned with his Dharma. Yeah, and I think- [Deepak: And- go ahead.] No, I'm just thinking about that. The magic behind language. You talk about magical lies, but there is still power and magic in language itself. 

Deepak: Yeah, you know, if you go on as an anthropologist, if you look at the evolution of language, nobody actually knows how language evolved, you can do all your research and no one knows how language evolved and yet without language, we wouldn't have human civilization. So, I've struggled with this where, you know, does language reveal or does it conceal. And the answer is it does both. Now the- again, the non-dual traditions have a way out of this. Language is Saraswati, the goddess of wisdom symbolically. And she uses language to create bliss in the listener and then she's also the custodian of the arts in music and mathematics and culture and even science. So, language is how we construct reality. Language doesn't describe reality. It constructs reality. So, this knowing the- and of course in Buddhism also, there is the right use of language, as one of the eight actual part, you know, it's the right speech, as they call it, and language that comes from the deepest source of existence is spontaneously healing. And it's a very mysterious thing because we're the only, you know, animals have language. But mainly the language of animals is for mating calls or danger calls. Only human language is narrative, which means we tell stories to each other. And as soon as we tell stories, we construct reality, the Wall Street. Money. Latitude. Longitude. Greenwich Mean Time, not mind you, Botswana Mean Time, has to be Greenwich Mean Time, the colonial history dominates people there. But if we understand language, we understand the construction of reality. 

Meg: And it is that I think the construction of the reality came through so much in Zolinsky's speech. I got to touch in on it. This is that reality, I entered into that, that reality with him through that speech. And that was a- that was a powerfully functioning open chakra is all I can say. It was absolutely there and a chance for U.S. Congress to hear it and to let- I like to say to let the phone of truth ring with inside them as well with that resonance. Oh, my goodness, and that happiness, love, fourth chakra work. Fourth chakra work, you started to equate with some inner child work as well. And, you know, to look at people, are they acting impulsively, are they filled with sudden outburst, did they find it hard to be happy for somebody else. It was pretty young stuff that you were talking about then, pretty youthful, early, early, but worrying too much if I'm liked or disliked. Gosh, is that the youngest of the chakras? I mean in some ways as it was described there. I just felt like that rich emotional life that we carry within us. If it's truly burdened by an inner child, that did not have the caretaking, that did not have the ability to develop an empathetic gaze with a caring adult or to receive an empathetic gaze from a caring adult. We see all the psychology that we teach now at CIIS that looks at attachment disorders and ways to heal from trauma, early trauma. So, this seems to be the evolution of the heart chakra. 

Deepak: The ultimate evolution of a heart chakra is the return to innocence. 

Meg: Innocence. That's why you talked about inner child with it. Okay. Okay, that makes sense now. Yay, a lot of beautiful work being done on that by our graduates as they work with young kids, who have been bullied in a way, allowing them to have a sense of the words coming out of their life- as mouth as they bully someone else.  

Deepak: Well, some of them have the opportunity to run for president.  

Meg: Yeah. No kidding. 

Deepak: They become bully.  

Meg: Oh my god. Did we ever see that. Yeah, and actually to have somebody talk about it, so openly as if it was heroic. [laughs] Can you expand on how the evolution of the chakra is a return to innocence? Oh, yeah, you captured some attention with that one. 

Deepak: Innocence is the unconditioned mind, and the unconditioned mind is spontaneously empathetic. Empathy means feeling what somebody else feels viscerally. Empathy leads to compassion, which is the desire to alleviate suffering.That desire to alleviate suffering leads to what is called love in action, which in my tradition is called Karma Yoga, which leads to joy and equanimity and transcendence. That's the sequence. 

Meg: And right on the heels of that, can you say a little more on Artha? 

Deepak: Artha. Artha means material success, so it is the exchange of values. You know, we- when you use mon- the word money, we use the word currency. And currency is- also we use the word exchange- stock exchange. Okay, so we're always exchanging values, and so Artha is the exchange of values and that leads to material success. 

Meg: That relates to what you talked about before, depending on your little ecology of who you're with, and who you're sharing values with.  

Deepak: Yeah, and each level there are- there's an ecosystem of values.  

Meg: And then there's a level that I'm always trying to reach, which is of simple awareness. And there are- the ways that you can feel simple awareness in your body too. 

Deepak: You- But as I said, just be aware of the space that engulfs you and the entire universe, the space in front of you engulfs the entire universe. Space is boundless. Every, every boundary is either perceptual, conceptual. It's artificial. It's a magical lie.  

Meg: And you know when you're not in that simple awareness though, the body is not calm. It's not peaceful. It's- it's not content. I love that word. It's not relaxed. I think that there's still the driving of fear, anxiety at that point. How to meditate? Wondering if many of our- our listeners right now have experiences of meditation or beginning meditation.  

Deepak: As long as you're alive, you'll have thoughts. And if you try to get rid of thoughts, that's also a thought. So thought is the upward stroke of meditation, and then the downward stroke is stillness. And in order to have a wave on the ocean, you need both. So don't worry about thoughts. We can do a meditation now. And you know, there's all kinds of meditations, reflective inquiry, transcendence of what is called the past-now, mindfulness, of space, of perceptions, of body, of viscera, of interception, of breath. Meditation is a body of knowledge. There are literally hundreds of thousands of versions of it. We can do a short- 

Meg: Let’s do that. I think this last question leading to meditation was perfect for us.  

Deepak: Okay. So, wherever you are, please sit comfortably. Uncross your legs, put your feet on the ground firmly. Open your hands and keep them on your lap. And let's start with just observing breath. That was Buddha's first meditation. It's called Vipassana. Vipassana means understanding. So, what did the Buddha observe? He observed that breath is a sensation. That it arises spontaneously. We don't breathe. We are being breathed. He also realized that breath is a sensation that arises, that is experienced, and then subsides. Which is true of all experience. All experience is a sensation. Every experience is a sensation. It arises. It’s felt. It subsides.  

And from this Buddha derived many laws, one was the law of impermanence. Whatever is in the nature of arising is also in the nature of subsiding. He also realized that, if you hold onto your breath, you'll suffocate. And that from there comes the Kleshas, the causes of suffering. Grasping, and clutching- clutching will suffocate you. So don't allow grasping and clutching. Let go and flow. So just let's do that with the breath right now.  

Now, please bring your awareness into your heart and we'll begin with a little inquiry.  

First question, who am I?  

Don't try to answer it, just ask the question and let go. Even better. What am I?  

Now, go a little deeper. What is it that wants to know what am I?  

Now, go a little deeper. Am I the changing body or am I the awareness in which the body is a changing experience? Am I the non-changing awareness in which the body is a changing experience? Just ask the question. Don't try to answer it. Am I the changing mind or am I the non-changing awareness in which the mind is a changing experience? Just ask the question.  

Am I changing emotions or am I the non-changing awareness in which emotions are a changing experience? Who, what am I?  

Now, go to the second inquiry. What do I want? Again, don't try to answer it. Just be aware of any sensations, images, feelings or thoughts that might come or not come. What do I want? 

Third question. What is my purpose? What is my Dharma? If I had all the money and all the time in the world? What's my unique expression? Who benefits? What is my purpose? Don't try to answer it. Just be aware of sensations, images, feelings, thoughts that may or may not come. If they come, notice them, let them go. Don't hold on to them. What is my purpose?  

Fourth question for today, final question. What am I grateful for? Notwithstanding what's happening in the world, or in my life, or in my family? What am I grateful for? Observing sensations, images, feelings, or thoughts that may or may not come, but gratitude opens the door to generosity of spirit. What am I grateful for?  

And now let go of all that and repeat your full name to yourself. I'm Deepak Chopra. I’m Mary Smith. I’m Meg Jordan. Even as you repeat your name, realize that's not who you are. That's your name. So now drop your name. Instead of saying I am Deepak Chopra, Mary Smith. Just say I am. And just repeat that phrase “I am” mechanically with no form. No memory. No anticipation. I am. Mentally.  

And now replace the I am with the Mantra which is the sound of existence a hum. Mentally. A hum. Let's do that for almost a minute.  

Finally, drop the Mantra and rest in your own presence. Rest in your own being. Be aware of being aware. This is all we are. Awareness has no shape. No color. No form. No sound. No shape. No age. It’s not 63 years old, or 105, or 2. Doesn't have a location, does not exist in time. So just rest in the awareness of awareness.  

And before you come out, feel the awareness in your body. Then let it move outside the boundaries of your body and let it pervade all of space-time. All the galaxies. The universe, the multiverse. Bring it back into your body. Relax, take a few seconds and open your eyes. That's a very short version of inquiry and Vipassana and transcendence, short. 

Meg: Short and very deep. Very, very deep. I’m- awareness of awareness has- is just blissful. Thank you. Thank you for that. I hope everybody got to go into that beautiful silence with us. Now, after this meditation is just a time for us to close and to thank you, and to thank you for this generous time as you’ve flown continents away to be so present with this deep wisdom and material with us. 

Deepak: Thank you Meg. Thank you. 

Meg: Total namaste to you. 

Deepak: Namaste. God bless. 

Meg: God bless. Thank you.  

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  

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