CIIS Public Programs Podcast

transcript

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This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs Department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit University in San Francisco. To find out more about CIIS, and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.  

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Bianca: Hi Joy! [laughing] 
 
Joy: Hi Bianca! [laughing] 

Bianca: So good to see you, we're like one degree away from each other and I love it. 

Joy: Yeah - likewise, likewise. And I love your glasses. 

Bianca: Oh, thank you so much! Yeah, it was one of those things where I was like I gotta wear headphones…OK you can’t see my earrings, let me just put on some lashes and some glasses! [both laughing]   
 
Joy: Yeah, a little razzle dazzle.  

Bianca: And this purple is beautiful on you, I’ve been staring at it. 

Joy: Thank you! 
 
Bianca: Because lace is such a hard thing to wear sometimes [Joy: Uh-huh] and it takes a level of confidence and clarity, which we'll talk about in a minute with your book. [both laughing] 
 
Joy: Thank you, 
 
Bianca: So I’m so excited to spend this time with you, and I wanted to start first by honoring your newest ancestor, your aunt who you shared on social media,  and so you know what I’ve learned about death and grief during this time is that it's one: all around us…but it's also you know, grief is such a shape-shifter and [Joy: It is] grief is also praise I think, as well, in many ways. So I just want to invite you to say your aunt's name and if you're moved to, want to share a story about her to get us started I invite you to do that. 

Joy: Yeah so, my aunt's name was Ann Darby Hinton and she was an evangelist in the in the church I mean I talk about the Black church in my book, but she was an evangelist. She had a beautiful voice, a beautiful voice and a smile that will light up the room. I often talk about how I come from a legacy, a lineage of full bodied Black women, and on my dad's side of the family like it's thick over there it's the it's you know it's thick  and heavy and so  you know growing up around larger body women like my aunt I mean she had a way of being able to command the room,  and her presence was something that that filled spaces.  

And you know and she passed unexpectedly  and kind of like you said grief being like a shape-shifter and like just going back and listening to the things that she said, or the songs that she sung, it's like grief has a way of being able to pull out this sense of sadness but also this this sense of like appreciation, and being able to share space with an individual. And so I’m kind of in that space but she was like an awesome person she could preach to you, she could teach to you, she could sing…you know out of places under tables, around tables, you know  and she would do it effortlessly and so…definitely honoring her today and holding her close to my heart and her memory and really thinking about the ways by which, not just me but also me and my sisters can kind of carry on that legacy and what we really actually house in our memories, that I think sometimes we don't give a whole lot of thought to until times like this happen. 

Bianca: Right, absolutely, and you know it's interesting because when you shared that video of her I think it was on Twitter, of her singing I was like this looks just like this book cover! [Joy: Yeah!] she's in like that red dress… 
 
Joy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah [laughing]  
 
Bianca: And so you know, first of all what a gorgeous book I just want to like objectify it for a moment  but you know I’m wondering also one of my  questions that I always have for authors is you know what part did you play in guiding the image and the colors and all that feel for the book, so how did you make that decision, did you know what you wanted your book cover to look like in any way? 

Joy: So, you know it's really interesting…I think like things happened so quickly for me, some of this is like warped and maybe as I sit back and take things in, I’ll remember more. But I don't remember giving them…so my publishers, North Atlantic Books, I don't really remember giving them outside of the information that I gave them when I first started writing a book like this is what it's going to be framed as you know, this is this is kind of you know it's a it's a it's a pro-Black lean to it right? I’m talking about Black girls I’m talking about Black women, and then I just kind of left it and they said you know ‘Joy we have a cover for you’ and initially when they showed me the cover it didn't have those little gold things in it so the little gold and noodle looking things. And I remember seeing it and like gasp it like it took my breath away I was like oh my gosh like is that my cover?! You know, and then I kind of like sent it to everybody that I do like look at this and then they took some feedback, because I had some ideas of like you know it's community is there a way we can put like cities or buildings or something in the back and they were like no, you like we could try and then that's where the little golden noodle things came from.  

And then they told me they said well when we print the book we'll make it textured and I was like OK that's fine so at for for the longest time I think, what maybe a month ago, I actually got a physical copy of the book. So, I didn't know exactly what that texture would look like and how it would be metallic they said it would be a metallic, but I was like OK whatever. And then I finally had a chance to like get the books in the mail and I unboxed it and I was like what is this masterpiece like this piece of like beauty right  but North Atlantic Books I mean they got they got an artist, an illustrator to do the work and they just kind of built off the vision of the information that I gave them and that kind of popped out, and it kind of made me feel good like I think I’m in a good place you know. [Bianca: Mhm] I’m working with a good group of individuals for them to capture that vision. 
 
 
Bianca: Right and people that are listening to you, right? [Joy: Yeah, right] They’re listening to the words that you're saying, which is rare I think not just for Black women, but for fat Black women especially in this you know context. [Joy: For sure] So congratulations for you know having that experience because that I think is just such an affirming experience, and also just a book that will that shines you know I’m just gonna show people if they haven't seen it. It's shiny, it's beautiful, it has sensual experience for everyone who's gonna grab it and so I think it's just such a thoughtful way of attracting other Black women and other Black people to be drawn to the book.  

So yeah, I’m really excited about this, and reading your book I came up with several questions, so I have a few, and by a few, I mean like 15. [both laugh] So I definitely want us to like have a conversation we might not  get to all of them…and so I really want to start with the overall theme of your book, which you know for me…so I’ve been fat, you know I’m Black Puerto Rican and I’ve been fat all my life to the point where people like you look so young I’m like because I’ve been fat forever, like you know that's [both laughing] just how it works but  you know for me I know that fat Black women created the movements that we know and understand today to be called “fat acceptance” and that those Black women are often excluded from any kind of history or legacy or narrative. And so what do you want to say to those who are listening in today and later on that are new to the fat acceptance movement, and how to find the work of those who are often excluded so there's a more holistic and fuller understanding of how we got to where we are and the labor of Black women. 

Joy: Yeah I mean I think part of this is like…there has to be an honor I think and of value to history  and I think that when you honor history, and when you honor stories, right, so I’m a qualitative researcher by trade right and so part of what I do a lot of what I do is like sitting and listening to everybody else. And it gives me an appreciation for the lived experiences of individuals that you know, you may not find…I don't know…you may not find you know Susie Q started this in 1967, right, you may not find it written like that but if you listen to Suzie Q’s story right, you can find where Susie Q was in the forefront of something  and I think part of you know part of Black fat women being erased from this work is having an ear to hear right? Part of the work that now we're doing is having the ear to hear right and having a heart to perceive what's actually being said and being done around us even though it's not being explicitly written. So, I think that's part of it.  

There are some people who have kind of curated information around the history of fat acceptance, and they've gone to lengths of trying to both parse out and add in information of people who were a part of movements that weren't that aren't typically added right? And so kind of like outside of like NAFA being created in the 60s and different things like that and like in my work like I often talk about Fannie Lou Hamer, who celebrated her birthday, well we would have celebrated her birthday yesterday and talking about how she stood on the forefront  in the front lines of making sure you know food was a priority for her  and she was a disabled Black woman, and she you know she moved in the in the front lines of not just  what it meant to have access like when we  talk about food deserts and different things like that, but like you know what it was like to have access to quality foods. But then you know just Black liberation civil rights and in general right, and I see her as a leader and what it means that to house all that magic that she had in the body that she had right and kind of move forward in those things. And so I would say to those who are new to the movement, to have a value for history, right, like, this movement did not start like five years ago or when Instagram took off right, which a lot of people tend to think like you know and I have to remind people like no I mean we've kind of been fat acceptance has been around for a while.  

So, I think part of that is it's also honoring the legacy that's coming behind you, that helps you to do what you do right? To know the shoulders of those that you've stood on, and then also, then to like really listen to the stories of individuals, don't look in the common places right because you're not going to find those people written in those stories because that's how white supremacy works, that's how oppression works. And so part of this is like you being you know studying the craft and you understanding what it is that you're getting involved in, and then being willing to do the leg work around that. 

Bianca: Yeah thank you. And I think also when I hear you talk about this piece and your background with being a qualitative researcher, and for those at home who are like what does that word mean? [Joy: Oh, yeah…I should explain…] It means that you know, Joy, well Joy go ahead do it. [Joy laughs] 

Joy: Well I mean yeah so I mean part of qualitative research is that you know oftentimes when we are in these academic spaces, we usually separate the difference between people who are interested in numbers versus people who are interested in kind of rich data right? Are interested in the ways by which information is not generalized. And so that's me, right, typically when it comes to marginalized populations, you're not going to have numbers - not the way that you know not the way that they're defined whenever it comes to quantitative research. And so I’m interested in stories, I’m interested in deep rich data, words, things that you got to sit and you got to read through it you got to parse through. History being one of those things you know just being able to kind of sit with information and like really pull out the essence of what people are trying to say or what's important or what stands out as opposed to changing that data into numbers and then putting an output that says 95 percent of this, is that. I’m like yeah but these three people said something and it's really meaningful and just because it's not a whole bunch of people doesn't mean we shouldn't listen to it. 

Bianca: Right absolutely and you know I think your book also is a contribution to the archive that Black people have in this country, and that oral narrative is definitely one of those pieces, not just of that archive but also in the spirit of Black feminist thought and being able to theorize from our particular experiences and what that looks like…how it shifts and morphs and so I’d love to talk a little bit about, or ask you about one moment in your book where you talk about freedom and feeling free for the first time as a young fat Black child and you wrote that you quote backstroked to freedom when learning how to swim at the YMCA as a young Black girl and what did you find liberating about the water…so this is like a four part question…so that's the first thing, what did you find liberating about the water? What other experiences have you had since then that have allowed you to experience such freedom? And then what are the ways that you have found collective liberation for fat Black women? So, the first question the first part is what did you find liberating about the water? 

Joy: Yeah, I mean, I think part of it was that one I was weightless and then I think you know the other part about it was there were no, there were no boundaries for me I think in the water, like yeah, there were like boundaries, like ‘don't do this or you might drown’ type boundaries right? But like not boundaries around like, ‘oh you can't stick your leg out this way, you can't do it this way, you can't do it that way.’ I mean to this day I still don't know how I got picked for that program. I just remember that you know half of the day would happen and I got to leave school and I got to go swim! Like that was, like that was it! Like leave school, go swim, and I had this polka dot bathing suit that my mom got from somewhere, and there was something about putting on that bathing suit. I mean I looked at myself and I was like this bathing suit is all right. I mean this bathing suit is sharp, it had polka dots, and I mean I think that was part of it too. I think being able to connect myself back to childhood, right? Like I didn't have to be anything else but a kid learning how to swim. I didn't have to protect myself in some ways you know, I didn't have to fight against other kids. I didn't have to watch my little sister, right? It was just a Joy thing; it was a me thing. It was like something that was carved out just for me, and I think I found liberation in that. And I didn't have to worry about my body and I could do what everybody, I mean we swam as kids,  but I could do what everybody else did and there were no barriers as it related to those things. So, it was an opportunity for me mentally to kind of be free as well as you know within my body. And so, it was really…it was nice. I mean ah, like to be a kid and like that moment, it was just like, it was so liberating for me. And I mean I would come home, and my hair would be stripped because of, because of the chlorine [both laugh] and you know, your hair is just whatever, and I didn't care it was just like, ‘this is what life is about’ right?  And so, we'll deal with the moisture later. But yeah it was it was wonderful.  

Bianca: Yeah  
 
Joy: Yeah…and so you want me to just move on to the next question?  

Bianca: Yeah, so the next question was, what other experiences have you had since then that have allowed you to experience such freedom?  

Joy: Such freedom, I mean, I think so okay, so I mean, well we're all adults and I think this is kind of your lane.  So, I think sex has been another, another space for me. I kind of talk about this briefly in the book too, a little bit, but I think again I think it's just that sense of safety and being with somebody who was like it wasn't a thing. Like your body wasn't a thing and like in some ways I was like weightless, and being able to kind of just like fade all of that stuff out right, and just focus on the moment, or focus on the person and all of that so kind of like it brings back those same type of memories, where like nothing else mattered but that thing and it was like and then within it was a Joy thing so it was like you know I’m there with another person but like their focus is on me, and my focus is on them, and so yeah that I mean that that part was liberating too. 

Bianca: Yeah that's so powerful you know and that resonated with me when you talked about feeling weightless in the water because that's also how I feel about growing up going to the ocean [Joy: Yeah] that you know like the ocean is just…it was like we could hold you, bring whatever you need, bring whatever you got, you know we're not…there isn't going to be resistance, there isn't going to be judgment like the water can hold you and that being like one of the first times that I was like ‘oh I can be my full self in my full body’ and not have to worry about… [Joy: Yeah] you know being rejected right, so the water definitely gave me that kind of affirmation and freedom and feeling safe in a place that can really you know that could kill you just like you said. 

 Joy: Right, right. [laughing] 

Bianca: You gotta follow certain rules. 

Joy: Right, right, right…like it's [laughing] it's that…it's that tension, it's that push and pull because the ocean you know I as a kid I actually, me and my sisters we kind of drifted out you know to the point where you don't feel the sand on the bottom of your feet anymore so there was like a scary moment in my life when I was like ‘OK water bring me back’. But you know, but definitely aside from drifting, you know there is a certain power that that holds and being able to lose yourself in a space and still be safe, right?  
 
Bianca: Right. So yeah, and then reconnecting with like the reality that our bodies are primarily water and the fluids that are released during like pleasure, during arousement, during desire like those are also connected in many ways to water as well so I really appreciate you sharing those pieces. And so, I’m wondering as you've been writing the book throughout your time processing what you wanted to share in the text. What are ways that you have found collective liberation with other fat Black women?  

Joy: Yeah, I mean I think, so one of the things in writing the book, I kind of talk about coming upon this community, and when I first started doing research in this area, like I was fired up about you know about fat liberation, and about fat acceptance, but a lot of the stuff that I came upon was like super white spaces, and I was like this is good but it would be great to kind of stumble upon people that look like me.   

And I stumbled upon one group and it was on Facebook and I mean for a while like we would just all congregate in this group, and we would talk about like everyday things, like things that you know we needed to talk about. And I think you know some of it was about you know I mean some of it was about clothes right, so where do I find this where do I get this, where can I wear this, right and then some of the things were like things that maybe you would ask that you couldn't ask in regular spaces right and so it's like well does everybody get rashes on your thighs when they rub together like where can I find this chafing cream all of that stuff right? And then people would post pictures in the group and like the type of fanfare? Like I you know like if you didn't go anywhere, like you would get dressed just to post a picture you know in the group and there was like this sense of like collective support right that you didn't need anybody else to tell you for the rest of the night whether or not you look nice. Because whatever you got in that group in that fifteen minutes, half an hour, like it would carry you and I think that you know kind of being in that space  and being able to kind of work through our things, work through our issues, talk about things.  

I mean it was also a learning space for us, because we had people who were part of the LGBTQIA+ community who was also in that space and they were willing to talk about like their experiences and educate us, and so we were all getting free together, right? Like we were all even though it was Facebook like you know at some point I had to like mute them at my job because I was like ‘y'all can't be posting all these things and showing up on my newsfeed. I’m gonna get fired!’ Like let's not do that so, but there was a lot of just sharing, and openness, vulnerability, and just teaching, I mean like education that just came out of that space. That we were able to find freedom, you know, if not for ourselves, for one another at times, you know we have like dump posts where people were just like let it out if you're stressed out put it here and like people were just like sharing and so you know to me I was like, ‘wow like when community like really shows up for each other, this is what it looks like.’ You know if this is the freedom, if this is the type of liberation that we can access in our spaces, you know, then then we might just be OK right? Like you know we live our world we do our four-hour shifts, our eight-hour shifts or whatever, but we would come back to this place and we would get restored, and we would be renewed, and if nobody else supported you, know you had the support of your sisters and so that was definitely a defining space for me as it related to the collective and accessing liberation with everyday Black folks and I love that part too right? It didn't have to be academic Black folks, it didn't have to be Black folks in high places, these are your everyday. You know we all grew up in a space together you know we've all kind of experienced things these are people you know from different walks of life and you didn't need accolades to belong. And so that was like a beautiful thing for me. 

Bianca: Yeah and I hear you saying a lot about power and how you know representation isn't enough, as you shared in your trip to Dakar, and I think a lot about how people think that representation is powerful and it is, but it's not the same as power and what I hear you saying is that the representations that you had in this Facebook group, and that we probably can see in a variety of other like what the young people are doing on TikTok what people did on Tumblr in the early 2000s, those are also forms of power where people are in control of how they want to be presented, controlling the gaze as the academy might say. And really recognizing the power of our expression, our gender expression, our sexual expression, and also having that recognized and honored in such a public way I think is really so much more powerful than seeing you know one person on like a billboard, as you said in the book, and so I want to talk a little bit about that power and shift it to the misuse of power. Because you talk often and use a phrase called adultification bias, and I would invite you to offer a description or a definition of what this term or phrase means for you and how you're using the phrase for people who may not, who may be hearing this for the first time and may not be as familiar.  

Joy: Yeah so I think adultification bias to me is the bias that people have towards younger individuals, there is a judgment that's kind of placed on them that holds them at a higher standard for living their lived experience right, which is biased or it's undo right, so it's not it's it shouldn't be, so there's this sense of judgment that happens typically to younger individuals. I talk about it in the book as it relates to younger Black girls right to where they're being held accountable for things in ways that they're younger as younger white girls wouldn't be, right? And I think we see this a lot I think it shows up in a number of different ways, even in our own communities, if you're part of Black community. I’m pretty sure you've heard at least once adults talk about Black girls being fast, right, like she's fast right and I’m like, but she's 11. So, is she really fast right?  And so we see this like this push to cause younger individuals to grow up, or we look at them as being grown up more so than what they really are.  

And I think that that shows up a lot as it relates to fat Black girls a lot, I mean I think there's a there was a lot of responsibility put on me as a kid. I talk about the mammification of Black girls and how you know we are kind of pushed into these spaces to be caretakers and you know and to watch over people, and at the time like you don't know why you're being pushed that space right? Like I can't play with everybody else like I have to watch everybody else I have to make sure everybody else is taken care of you know, if you're gonna point for anybody to cook for somebody it's going to be the fat kid. So there's this you know there's this sense of pushing us to adulthood, quicker, faster, and then not really allowing space or grace for when we make mistakes right because we're also being looked at almost as adults. And so that's kind of how I would define it in a roundabout way  

Bianca: Yeah absolutely and I think that there is I sort of…I just want to be more specific with the layers that I saw for my own lived experience but also in reading a book where yes for me as a fat light-skinned you know Black Puerto Rican girl, I definitely experienced that but then I witnessed that continue to happen in a completely different way or at it later because of colorism and how there was this idea that oh because someone has darker skin or has browner skin that means that they're supposed to be responsible for a whole other level of things right, so I was responsible for how I was moving through the world and how you know grown-ass men were looking at me and I was supposed to be responsible for what grown men were trying to do.  

But then when you add this layer of colorism to it and you recognize the anti-Blackness there's just another element to not just you're responsible for what old grown men are doing, but that you're also responsible for all these other people, you're responsible for everybody else's feelings, you're responsible for the honor of the family if you know for lack of a better term, and how that is deeply rooted in the mammification as you talk about, and you know you can't separate those two, those three pieces, like it's just not possible. And so for folks who are just hearing this phrase for the first time, the adultification piece, I just want folks to know that it's also deeply you know informed by an anti-Black racism, [Joy: Yeah] and you know that's just real, and there's no you know, that's just a fact. And if you haven't experienced it, maybe it's because you're a lighter-skinned person like me. [Joy: Yeah] that there are there we all don't have the same experience and that's OK.  

And so I’m wondering how did you, as a young fat Black girl find support or comfort during that time, what were some of the pieces that stand out for you as finding solace you know finding comfort for yourself…either within yourself or in other ways like this, like swimming, I would imagine would be one way but in other forms, did anything else come up for you?  

Joy: Yeah, I mean, I think part of how I found liberation I think growing up as a younger kid was that I fought with my mouth. So, I was I was also the kid known to have a big mouth. I had a smart mouth. You couldn't say just anything to me and expect me to take it, and I mean that was like across the board right so  I remember you know saying a few words to my dad a couple times. [both laugh] I mean like you know there was a certain point where the titles of who treated me a particular way kind of faded to Black, and part of that I think for me was because my survival depended on it right. So I couldn't honor the fact that like you were my dad, or my mom, or my gram if what you were doing and saying to me was like stripping the life from me right, like I had to make a decision about what I was going to allow, and I was willing to risk like clapping back at you so that you understood like you're not going to talk to me any old kind of way. [Bianca: Mhm] 

And so because the swimming program ended when school was over like I had to find another mode, like another space of retreat. And I mean I think growing up I became extremely comfortable with being by myself, because that was a that was a place of safety for me. And so I had friends but I had few that I kept very close, you know close friends, and then I lost myself in music there was like a lot of drowning out like people calling people call me an old soul to this day but like you know like Stevie Wonder helped me  you know as a kid, Luther Vandross was there. Like The Quiet Storm was like my thing and it was just something that I think that I was able to kind of get lost in…the music, the riffs, the sound, the baseline… all of those things and then yeah I emerged with like a tongue when I needed to because I couldn't survive, I mean kids are cruel, and part of it I mean a lot of it is just out of ignorance like you say things because you hear it and you repeat it. And so there wasn't like a space that I could go to and I kind of talked in a book about how my mom moved us you know to another city in Pennsylvania growing up, and so I didn't have like the support, the same support that I had of my family whenever I was back in Philly, where there were actually fat people. And so there was a lot of like me remembering the words of what my gram would say, me remembering like you know the presence that my aunt brought to the table, and me telling myself like it can't be all bad because they're good, so you know, there has to be some good in this.  But then also you know showing up at doctor's offices and being like I’ll lose weight when I get ready leave me alone and give me this paper right and I’m going home. But you know there was there was yeah…I think I fought to keep myself safe [Bianca: Yeah] more than find an actual place of safety. 

Bianca: Yeah, I think that's a really important piece for people to remember, especially if you're younger, if you're a parent. That these are really important things that still exist for young Black girls. And so, I want to shift a little bit to your conversation, you have a really extensive conversation around health and healthism, and you know as a fat disabled sex educator, a sexologist, I have been encouraging people to stop using the term health in their work, and this has been a constant form of resistance. And the question I usually get is, well what should we say instead of healthy or health and I have some of my own responses for those questions and my own suggestions, but I would love to hear how you respond to such forms of resistance. 

Joy: Yeah, I mean I think part of this, I mean especially with the development of like Jabbie, so the app that I I’ve been working on, like I’ve been, and I’m happy to hear your expertise on this…I’ve been trying to find like different ways of being able to define and describe, because health right, at least through my eyes is holistic, and so it's not just about what your body is doing or what your body looks like.  And so, well-being is like something, but I think like the well part also kind of gets me, like I don't really want to, you know if there's a value that's already added to it. And so, I haven't found a word, or you know a term that I am solely set on. I do like to give people space so that they can kind of define what they see it like for themselves, because it's almost like health being this term that we've gotten so used to hearing and then wanting to dismantle and kind of break away from that, and then having something else to latch on but not knowing exactly what to latch on too.  

I usually tell people that my go-to usually is that health is subjective, and I think that that's something that we need to always keep in mind when we're talking about these things, is that like what works for you may not work for me. Wait, what works for you may not work for me, and what works for me may not work for you, and you have that liberty to define it yourself. Health is a social construct right, [Bianca: Right] and so like dismantle it - call it whatever you want to call it. It's yours own it, right? And I think for me it's more about putting ownership back into the hands of individuals so that they can define whatever they want to call their well-being for themselves, as opposed to like coining another term, I guess.  

Bianca: Yeah 
 
Joy: But I want to know! I want to know what you use. 

Bianca: [laughing] It's so interesting because I worked with Sonya Renee Taylor, who wrote a book about puberty for young girls, and I was the medical reviewer and you know, and look Sonya Renee was our point, like she knew what my comments were gonna be and she was also like the publisher wants something specific as well. And you know so I said well you get to redefine how you're using the word health then you get to say, ‘I know that health has been used to keep some of us out, to target some of us, to exclude some of us, and I’m using health in this way, and this is what it means in this book’ right?  

So you know, I agree like we need to use language in a way that connects us to people and so that people can find us more easily and so yeah health becomes a useful term, and for me in my field you know when people use health, they talk about like sexual health, or they talk about healthy relationships, and for me you know, as a disabled person, like I’m never going to be healthy. You know like I’m already sick [Joy: Mhm, right] you know so having me teach other young people who might also have a disability to try to attain something that just isn't possible for them because they're never going to be healthy. For me, it's a violation of my principles, it's not in alignment with like body autonomy.  

So, I usually tell people when talking about like relationships, think about a respectful relationship.  What does respect feel like for you [Joy: Nice, OK] what does respect feel like when you have that relationship with yourself, and so really starting with the self, like what kind of relationship do you have with the identities in your body that are showing up. You know is it one where you're feeling solid and secure? Is it one where you have questions and you're curious? And then how does that impact the other relationships you want to build with other people in a particular way. And usually the people who have the most resistance are people who are just like but that's how I was trained, and I was trained 30 years ago, and it you know it's like the world changes, and like [Joy: Right] language is alive and you know words mean things to different people in a different way. So, finding a language that really connects people I think is really important.  

And you know sometimes I’m like go open a thesaurus, like go find the word that you think speaks more clearly and eloquently to the to the way that you want to talk about whatever it is you want to talk about. Because for a lot of people, they don't want to talk about sexual health. They're talking about something else, they're probably talking about like body autonomy, or pleasure, or you know whatever else comes up. So yeah so, I appreciate you sharing that because it's true we need to use language intentionally to build community. And I think that's how people find us, and that's how people connect with us.  

And so, I want to switch a little bit to another question, but a common conversation that we're seeing happen right now especially, in the movement for Black lives is about Breonna Taylor and so I want to know if you believe that fat phobia, anti-Blackness, and misogynoir play a role in the murder of Breonna Taylor. But also, in the response to her murder, and if, so can you expand on how fatness is a part that has not been central to this conversation. 

Joy: So, I mean, I think, that…I think anything that has to do with Black people in this country, anti-Blackness is going to be there. I think that fat phobia is ingrained in anti-Blackness in some ways and it is a functioning component of white supremacy. And I think that you don't get around that anytime an injustice is being done. I think if we talk about fat phobia as it relates to Breonna Taylor, I think those conversations, or at least where it shows up is probably a lot more subtle. You know it would be interesting to see what the reports on her autopsy and different things like that would look like. Kind of the remarks around those things. I remember when I seen her picture, when they first started showing her picture, you know that was one of the things that struck me as like, ‘oh she's, you know, she kind of, she's a little chubby’ right? And I was like, ‘oh.’  

You know for me there was like that sense of, that sense of connection, but I didn't see anything that was explicitly said about her body size. But I think that you know, when we start talking about what happens in Black communities and how Black people are often robbed of the justice that's due to them in this system, you're going to have anti-Blackness that runs through that for sure. And I mean I would like to see how they respond. I mean it took them a long time before they came out and said what they said about Eric Garner, you know, and about his conditions. And I often tell people, and I think it's in the book, as it relates to Mike Brown, right? No one would ever believe that story if that story about Mike Brown kind of turning and charging towards the bullets, if that story was told and it was about his friend that was with him, right? One of the reasons why people were able to kind of sell the story of Mike Brown doing those things was because of his size.  

And so, you know save Breonna Taylor being asleep in bed, right, I think that the conversation would have been a lot different if she was up, if she was moving around right? It's hard to pin a story on somebody when they're not moving, but it would definitely be, I would be interested to see kind of what what's written about you know in the autopsy. I mean, I think I read an article that said that they didn't release all the information around that, and so for me I think that part would be interesting to see if fat phobia shows up there. But anti-Blackness runs through and through. One of the reasons why they were there, one of the reasons why they ignored the rules, and all of those things, because Black people don't get to be innocent before you know they're deemed guilty. It's this idea that you know you have to be doing something wrong. She had to be you know doing these things even though they had the evidence in front of them that said that she was not, right? And so, you know there are days like, I, this country is something else. [Bianca: Mm…Yeah…] But yeah, I mean go ahead.  

Bianca: Yeah, it's a real, real reminder that, you know, for me, that fat Black people don't have any privacy. And then fat Black people can work as much as they want and try as hard as they might to find a space of comfort, of rest, like she was resting in her home when she was murdered. And so, the reality that like our bodies are always up for people's conversations, critique, thoughts, opinions, touch. You know the ways that people touch me. I think it definitely speaks to them being like, ‘oh you're fat and so I could be safe with you’ because the mammification of it all. [Joy: Yeah] And it's just like first of all, why are you touching me? But also, like, how dare you! And just the reminder that like we never really get to have our own space out in the open, even within our own homes, and so it is a devastating reminder. And those are some of the pieces that I think really, I see missing from these conversations. And as much as, you know, we talk about them within our communities. I think when we don't do, as you argue, a full inclusive, intersectional, understanding of the oppression and the violence that we experience, we're really not doing a good job of collective liberation or moving towards that approach either. [Joy: Yeah]  

And so, you know, you wrote in the book that white people would rather disappear from the internet and block followers before they changed. And you know this is exactly how people like Twitter, and Facebook, and Tumblr and wherever else, when you're targeted, this, these are the exact same expectations that you're told to do if you're targeted, it’s like just get off that platform then, and people will stop bothering you. And so you talk about online harassment and violence throughout the book, in various different settings, and I’m wondering…you know, what are some solutions that you have found to ending online violence or to maintaining your own safety and security, either through your podcast, through any types of other work that you do online, on social media? 

Joy: Yeah so, I found that the unfollow and the block button are my friends. [Bianca: laughing] So that's kind of you know that's like level, like level one, right? Who do you not want to interact with? Block them. Who do you not want to you know, who do you not want to see? Unfollow them, that sort of thing. I think it's also important, or at least what I’ve kind of seen in my own spaces, is when you strip individuals of their everyday arguments right, and so like fat people when it comes to like people insulting fat people like the bar is extremely low, and so the first thing they say is, like, ‘oh you're fat hahaha.’ And I’ve watched people be like ‘yeah I already know that, so what else’ right? And it's like people don't have a response outside of that because that's the thing that's supposed to be so insulting, and it's supposed to be so, you know, you should be so infuriated by that that, you're supposed to back down. [Bianca: Right] And so I think part of like disempowering language is another way to kind of use and kind of using that right so reclaiming the term fat works a lot for people in certain spaces.  

You know and then I think you know for me one of the things that I’ve learned to do, is just kind of measure, like measure your bandwidth, right? And so, there are some things that you want to scroll past. Like there are some things that you just aren't going to, you know, there are just some things that you're not going to acknowledge because what you want to address is so close to your heart that the people who post stuff, or the people who say things, like they're going to forget about it in the next 5 minutes right. And you're gonna be so riled up, and you're gonna be so angry, and so upset about what they post, that if you tap in, like you're gonna give your energy to that and it's gonna drain you right. And so, I mean I think when I was like new to online spaces, I was like debating people. Read this article, do this, do that, you know check this out. And I was like you know, and I was feeling good because I knew what I knew right? My knowledge was there but then after a while I said, Joy them people ain't reading these articles but you they're not reading these articles like they're not interested in this, like they want to argue, right? And so you got to be able to find a balance between, you know, the people that you want to sit and actually do that type of labor with right, and the people who just want to stroke your emotions and get you riled up. I mean to the point of like harassment, which is really interesting is that, what I find when it happens to white people oftentimes is not harassment, right, like if somebody telling you like, ‘hey what you're doing is probably not right or you're saying something that's inaccurate’ and them feeling attacked and they're like bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, right so they turn all their stuff off because they don't want to listen to correction.  

But for Black people who really do face harassment particularly in fat Black spaces, you know, it's really interesting because I’ve been around people in the community who have been harassed, and they did have to leave online spaces. And they did you know, from being doxed and all of those other things like they did have to leave online spaces and I think sometimes that is a viable option. I think sometimes we, you know, because we're so consumed by social media, we sometimes forget that there is a life outside of, right, outside of that. And sometimes there that is the space turn it off right, and the people who are close to you probably have your phone number, the people who are close to you probably have your address, right? And that you may not need to be connected to all the other people in that space, especially if it puts your safety at risk. 

Bianca: Yeah and I think it also goes back to that healthism that you talk about where the concern trolling shows up a lot in online platforms. And you're right, white people perceive bullying to be something that, to us, is just stating facts. You know, like when we tell you actually, we haven't identified as Afro-American in over 40 years and stop calling us that, they think that's a form of bullying, and it's like, actually that's a form of radical love for Black people. And why do you receive the love that we have for Black people, at each other, as a form of violence towards white people right? And so that's I think a question that I often pose to white people where I’m just like ‘oh I’m showing up because I love Black people and you're showing up because you don't and you need to think about that in a particular way.’ And so when thinking about loving Black people, you know, you talk a lot about in the book, you write a lot about your experience with your gram, and your aunts, and your family members. And the kitchen was a really intentional space for the women in your family, especially when you're doing church events and so I want to know how radical is the kitchen for fat Black people? 

Joy: I mean, OK…[Bianca: laughs] I have a love affair with the kitchen. I mean, you know there are things… and it's really interesting because like the kitchen is not just the place where food is right? You know I think like to this day like I wash my hair in the kitchen. Part of the reason behind that is because I’m short and the in the you know the spigot kind of works for me whatever but there was a time because that's how I grew up whenever I was younger, my mom would wash my hair at the sink. Sit in the chair dip, backwards and then the water wouldn't get in your eye, you know and so there's this communal thing that happens in the kitchen. I mean I do my two-steps in the kitchen OK like Motown does not sound like it does in the kitchen. Like there's some, there's magical things that happen there. You know we talk in the kitchen, we laugh in the kitchen, we share stories in the kitchen, right? And so I think that the kitchen is a space of like radical love, and acceptance, and community for people and if you grew up like part of a Black collective you also know that everybody ain't allowed in the kitchen right? So, there's this certain sense of like once you're there right, once you've been permitted to be there, being older in age versus being a kid right and what gets discussed in the kitchen, then you realize why the kitchen is such a special place right? [Bianca: Yeah] And you're not just being called in to taste the potato salad right, you're getting called in to have wisdom, I mean you know when I think about the matriarchs of my family sitting at a table, and like just nuggets are just dropping like from the from the ceiling and oftentimes it's not it's not planned,  and I think that's also something that's really magical that that happens right? So it's not like oh we're going to talk about this at three o'clock make sure you're there it's like no in between songs like you know somebody was pouring from a fifth of gin and they decided to drop some stuff right? And so in those spaces, like you learn how to honor what happens in those spaces, like you know, it kind of blows my mind because in a lot of ways like you know even when we talk about like learning how to cook and all of those things. Like sometimes that don't that don't even happen in the kitchen right like they're telling you how to make peach cobbler everybody's sitting around the living room table like you know I mean the couch and stuff is like you know no you got to put the butter in here first, so you're not learning how to cook in the kitchen, there's other things that are happening in that space, that communal space, that sharing of like information and wisdom and there's just a lot of love.  

And I think for me, being in that space and being with my gram, and my aunt, and my other family members, right like…to me I was like ‘that's what I want’ you know like when I think about family you know I  think about moments in the kitchen, I think about those times when we connect with one another and we and we throw our parties and our get-togethers and everybody's in that space and we're loving each other and we're laughing at silly things you know that we'll remember 10 years from now that kind of keep us going you know after our grams and our aunts have passed on. And so hoo-yeah, I mean the kitchen is like a magical, it's a wonderful place, where great things happen, at least that's been you know my own experience in my family. So, I would say that it's a place of radical love and acceptance. [Bianca: Mhm…absolutely] Definitely communal in that space.  

Bianca: Yeah and I see that happening a lot now, especially during the pandemic, where people are figuring out OK who can I have a meal with, you know? Who can I like really invite into my home so that we can share a meal or and just the way that mutual aid is showing up to make sure that people have food that you know is nourishing to them, that they enjoy. And that's also something that I learned in my grieving where I was like I just need to eat the food that makes me feel good, or that you know fills me up, and it's probably not always going to be some kale, and some you know, whatever.  

Joy: It ain't never going to be kale! 
 
Bianca: [laughing] Right! And not by itself, but you know and that being a real important piece. If you're going to be committed to the healing work of finding other pathways to heal whatever pieces of you need that kind of comfort and care. You also need to nourish your body with the things that your body has capacity to consume, and you know, I’ve been in spaces where people like, ‘we're gonna have this really great organic vegan whatever meal’ and people are just like ‘I’m still hungry!’ You know like and we couldn't focus because people like, ‘I never eat like this, and we're doing some really hard work and I’m still hungry.’ [Joy: laughs] So I learned that very quickly that like yeah, we need to when we do that hard, healing work we gotta you know consume the things that fill us, and nourish us, in the ways that our body understands.  And we can't just do a quick shift right? 
 
Joy: Right, right. Yeah, I mean for sure! Go ahead. 

Bianca: So, I have two more questions... so one stood out to me because I was like ‘oh this showed up in one of the responses at the end of the book’. But girl, you know I’m in my mid-40s, and Oprah was such a huge representation of fat Black women, not fat Black women. You know there's, when I think of diet culture and how it impacts Black women, I immediately think about Orpah Winfrey, and you know you don't write about Oprah in your book as a cross-generational impact. So I’d love for you to share a little bit about why you chose to not include her in this particular text. 
 
Joy: You know, I think for me, Orpah…OK, so there's a couple things across this thing, across this conversation. So, one of those things is that growing up as a kid I did not have cable, and I lived in a place, Johnstown, Pennsylvania, where they gave us one channel if you did not have cable, and that channel was NBC, and Oprah did not come on NBC. So, kind of looking at the influence that Oprah has had throughout the decades, I didn't have that same experience with her just off the strength of like accessibility and what it means to be poor. [Bianca: Mhm] So that's part of it. I think the other part of it is that Oprah's history with her body, and with her weight, has been something that has been circulating in body positive fat acceptance spaces now roughly for the past decade. And I think it's really hard to write about her because we all have complex identities, and I think if we are talking from a stance of what it means to be pro-fat in a sense…it's hard to write about her in that space. And it's not to take anything away from the work that she has done. But I think that you know, part of where Oprah is right now, is still in this weight loss, Weight Watchers, cauliflower pizza space. [Bianca: Mhm]   

And so, I think if I were to write about Oprah and really do her legacy any justice, I would want to write about her in a different context, just off of the strength of like she has done a lot of work and it does need to be honored. But when we talk about fatness, I think that that is something that you know, and it's something that all I mean it's not that it's…it's you know it's hard to kind of, to understand right, or to grasp. It's one thing to be a woman in Hollywood, it's another thing to be a Black woman in Hollywood, and it's another thing to be a fat Black woman in Hollywood. [Bianca: Mhm] So, we understand the pressures of what that means and what that looks like, and why people would decide to make a decision right, to pursue weight loss. But yeah, it's just it's a hard place for me. [Bianca: Yeah] It's a complex place for me and I wouldn't want to do her legacy of disservice in that manner right that the only reason why I’m putting her in the book is to talk about like her stance towards anti-fatness. This is Oprah Winfrey, like I feel like she deserves more than that, and because that was the topic of the book I said OK, well you know, we'll pick and choose and figure out how we want to you know situate her. 

Bianca: Yeah I mean I think it's totally fair, and a beautiful thought, to be like you know what people already all up in Oprah Winfrey’s business and you know what are you gonna say that's gonna be so drastically different [Joy: Right] from what other people have said over the past 30 years. And then, and she's a complicated person. She's a messy human being just like all of us. And so yeah what would it mean to say look at how look at how things shifted, right, when this happened for her. Or look at the path that she's paved for women to age, and be child free by choice, and to not be in a relationship with the state and a man, or you know whatever it looks like. You know, I think that she really gives us a different understanding of what's possible when it comes to relationships. And that there's also pieces that are like, and we're all under the same you know BS of a white supremacist ideal of beauty and all that stuff…so I think it's a totally fair, you know, exclusion and an intentional one that I think is thoughtful and caring.  

I’d love to hear you know, you talk a lot about fashion in the book, and the challenges with finding fashion that that fits your body as a young person, which, I totally you know understand completely. And so now, today, where we have different you know fashion designers who do recognize ‘oh people over size 18 exist, they also take pride in their appearance, and they also have money to spend, and I should be able to offer them things’. So, I’m wondering if there are any designers that you love that for any you know fat or super fat people watching, don't know about, or might want to look into. Who do you want to share for those of us who might be seeking to improve our wardrobe? 

Joy: So, I have like one like one brand that I like that I say you know would probably accommodate people across sizes so if you're a small fat, mid-sized fat, super fat, and that's eShakti. I have a special love for them, like I tell you, I mean you know…being able to like send my measurements in like I want that dress and I want it with longer sleeves, or I want it shorter or I want it like, I’m 5'4 like because here's the, OK, so here's the thing -  like yes I’m fat but I’m also short. So, you know one of the one of the reasons why I learned how to sew growing up was because like I needed to learn how to hem pants, how to hem skirts, like everything's too long. And I needed to find a way then I was like well maybe I can make something that I like for myself, so I have this special love affair with eShakti because they're like well make it how, how you want it to look. You send us the measurements, we'll make it and it'll fit the way that you need it to look, and it's good quality stuff, you know, what I mean? [Bianca: Yes] And I’m like OK, well I can get tailored pieces made right and I can, like I said, I could specialize it so it might be long sleeve on the model, but I want a short sleeve, because that was another thing it's like I see this dress and like it ain't got no sleeves, what I’m supposed to do. I can't wear that to work, like give me something with sleeves on it.  

And I think that you know some of it like they just added some things so they are you know, coming they're becoming a bit more accessible as it relates to pricing, because in the beginning I was like I got to pay for this, and got to pay for the tailoring, hold up you eShakit, hold on so…and I don't even know if I’m pronouncing it right, that's what I call it but I don't know how else to pronounce it so… 

Bianca: You’re pronouncing it how it looks, so yeah… 

Joy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah…but eShakti is a big one  and then I think as it relates to just like fat positive, like fat positive clothing like Fat Mermaids is another brand that like I love and I kind of talk about J Mobley, and like her designing  t-shirts and stuff and so…I believe that her sizing goes up to a 5x. Carefree Fat Girl is another is another brand…I consider myself like I’m on the cusp of a mid-sized fat so you know…depending on the time of the month sometimes I can slide into a 3x. Slide into you know a 3 or a 4x. But I think that there are other companies that that are catching on. [Bianca: Mhm] I wouldn't say that they are like leading right? I do like The Loft. The Loft goes up to a size 26 and I’ve been able to find like some of their pants and their jeans, I get them on sale when it's like 70 percent off. I’m like give me that give me that, give me that, give me that, I do that. J Crew Outlet is another place that actually has some extended sizing. And then I mean you have like Torrid, you have Lane Bryant. You have Women Within, there are people who like them because they have larger sizes. Jessica London is another place. Ellos is where I go for coats because they have large sizing as it relates to that. But I do think that there's a phasing out too. So like I feel like Torrid and Lane Bryant, they got to step their game up some because I feel like they've been like in the space and it's kind of been a monopoly so people have been going to them because they are the only people that provide things. But like this shirt I have on right now is from Ashley Stewart. So, I’m like you know Torrid, you don't have, you know, you got to fix some of these things. [Bianca: Right] Lane Bryant, you gotta, you know, you gotta step up, step up your game. And then like Ashley Stuart, I kind of like their stuff too, but like their sizing is iffy. Like this shirt I think is like a 28 or something and like I don't wear a 28, so it's like, yeah…you they were like you got to be like some brands are like we have extended sizes like we go up to a size 32 and like your size 32 is a 24. [Bianca: Mhm] Like just because you changed the numbers don't mean that the, like you know, what I mean. So sometimes it's kind of looking through that. But if I were to like you know eShakti will sell you jeans up to a size 32, and you can, you know, if you're the type of person that had that gap in the back when you sit down, and you, eShakti will get you right. [Bianca: laughing, right] 

So you know so I appreciate, you know, I appreciate brands like that because I think that, you know, we say a lot that the fat community or plus size community, like we have the money. And so if you have the money, and you have somebody that's willing to tailor pieces for you like why not do that over a Fashion Nova, no shade, but you know what I mean? Just thinking about that where you'll have pieces that will last you longer, that can be staples, that you can build on, and you can dress up and dress down. You know for forty dollars or twenty-nine dollars, whenever you know things are on sale and they'll still sell you know what comes in regular sizes if you just want to order like a size 24 or 26 or something like that, but you know why not get it tailored if you can right? 
 
Bianca: Right, yeah, finding a good tailor it's like the key to life in many ways. [Laughing] [Joy: Yeah] Thank you so much for that list. Joy, it's been such a fantastic opportunity talking with you and connecting with you. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us this evening and also for writing this beautiful book that ends with a love note to fat Black girls. So, I invite you to just at least read that part [Joy: laughs] if you have the book and haven't started yet. And so, I just want to thank you again.  

Joy: Thank you so much. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect.  

The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliot, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.  

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