CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

Our transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human editors. We do our best to achieve accuracy, but they may contain errors. If it is an option for you, we strongly encourage you to listen to the podcast audio, which includes additional emotion and emphasis not conveyed through transcription.

[Cheerful theme music begins]

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

In the context of non-monogamy, compersion or the emotion of positive empathy is understood as sharing our partner’s joy regarding their other intimate relationship or relationships. Drawing upon her seminal research with consensually non-monogamous individuals, author and mindful dating and relationship coach, Dr. Marie (two-un) Thouin, unravels the complexity of compersion in her recent book, What is Compersion?, the first ever book to offer a comprehensive model of compersion and a practical roadmap to cultivating it.

In this episode, Dr. (two-un) Thouin is joined by Poarch Creek Two-Spirit Indigequeer activist, artist, sex therapist, and somacultural theorist Dr. Roger Kuhn in a conversation exploring compersion as a roadmap for radical love in monogamous and non-monogamous consensual relationships.

This episode was recorded during an in-person and live streamed event at California Institute of Integral Studies on August 8th, 2024. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

[Theme music concludes]

Dr. Roger Kuhn: Good evening and welcome, or maybe I should say good morning or good afternoon, depending on where you are in the world and what time you may be watching this at a later date. Marie, it is so great to be with you this evening. [Muscogee Language greeting] My name is Roger Kuhn, some folks call me Dr. Roger Kuhn. I come from the Poarch Creek Nation. I'm from the Wynn Clan. And I identify as an [Native Term], which is the term we use in my tribe for Two-Spirit. Anything you'd like to say about yourself, Marie, before we start? 

Dr. Marie Thouin: Thank you, Roger. I'm Dr. Marie Thouin. I graduated from CIIS in 2021. And I've been doing a lot of coaching since, which has been so wonderful and so educational. So I have one foot in the practice realm, one foot in the scholarly realm. And yeah, I'm just very excited to be with you today. Thank you for coming.

Roger: Well, thank you for being here. And now just a really quick story about Marie and I before we jump into our conversation. Several years ago, I took a class here at CIIS called Love, Sex, and Intimate Relationships. It was part of the PhD program for human sexuality, which I also graduated from. And on the first day of class, this lovely student sat next to me, who happened to be Marie. And we sparked a conversation on that first day. And we've been chatting ever since. That must have been like, what, in 2015? So we've known each other almost, almost a decade that we have been friends. And I just want to say how incredibly proud I am of you for all that you've accomplished, not just personally, professionally, and what you're gifting to the field. 

Marie: Thank you. 

Roger: And for those of you that do not know, the book is called What is Compersion? I think you have it here. What is Compersion? And I want to actually start there because for those that are maybe here with us tonight and those that may be watching online, some folks may be unaware of what do you mean by the term? What is compersion? So we're not going to have time to read the whole book together tonight. So we're going to ask for a pretty concise definition, if you could give us one. 

Marie: Well, that's a great start. So me and my colleague, Dr. Sharon Flicker, co-authored an encyclopedia definition last year in 2023. So I'll start there because that is now the most official version of compersion definition. And we had a lot of conversations about it and decided on a three prong definition because we realized that the typical understanding of compersion as simply, well, I'm happy when you're happy, was true, but incomplete. So the first definition is that compersion is the broad range of positive emotions that we might experience in relation to our romantic partners’ other intimate relationships. So that's the typical understanding of compersion in non-monogamy. It's I'm happy when you're happy with someone else. However, in my research, one of the most important things that I discovered is that compersion can also be thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors. It doesn't only come in the form of an emotion. So the second definition is that compersion is the broad range of positive thoughts, actions and attitudes that we might experience in relationship to our partners’ other relationships. And then the third definition is expanding the concept of compersion to general context. So the broad range of positive thoughts, emotions, attitudes, and behaviors that we might experience in relation to somebody else's happiness or success in any context. Because we did realize that the word was starting to go beyond the context of consensual non-monogamy. 

Roger: Well, that speaks to really how language itself evolves and terms, right? We have to remember that all words were created at some point. So we have a term like compersion, which maybe originally thought of as my happiness for your happiness, and now it's evolving into all of these other ways. What would you say is important for our audience to understand about how the term is evolving currently? 

Marie: Well, the term was coined originally in the 1970s at a community called Kerista. It was an intentional polyamorous community in San Francisco that since has disbanded. But that was the first iteration of the word compersion. And it has been used and popularized in non-monogamous communities ever since, but always with this kind of more or less vague definition. So in recent years, there's just been a few more research studies that has sought to understand what it is at a deeper level. And also, I think one of those things has been to remove the shame from people who might want to feel compersion but are not feeling compersion. Because when I started researching that topic, a lot of what I would hear from the polyamorous community is, well, I feel bad about this word, about this concept in and of itself, because I feel like if I'm not feeling it, I'm not poly enough. So I think that the more we understand what it really is and how fluid it is, the less shame there is around it. 

Roger: And just for folks who may not know, could you just give us a quick definition of poly and/or polyamorous? 

Marie: Oh, thank you for asking. Yes. So consensual non-monogamy is an umbrella term that designates all the forms of non-monogamies that are consensual, that are happening with the consent and the knowledge of everyone involved. But polyamory is under that umbrella, and it's often used interchangeably. But the specific definition of polyamory is those relationships where there are concurrent relationships happening, but are also emotional, not just sexual. So there is emotional commitment with more than one person at the same time. 

Roger: Now, you were sharing that maybe traditionally or how the word was originally used or thought of was in those sort of CNM, consensual non-monogamy, or poly sort of relations. And as the term has evolved, I'm curious about ways in which folks may experience compersion sort of outside of maybe what we think of as a romantic and or intimate sexual relationship. Does compersion also exist between friends? 

Marie: Absolutely. As we were just talking about on our way here, you know, I was celebrating your successes recently and you were celebrating mine. So I feel like friendships are some of the relationships where compersion can really bloom. But I would also add to that sometimes sibling relationships, parental relationships, business and work relationships, really anywhere in life where we really care about each other there's room for envy, jealousy and compersion.

Roger: And, sort of to go with the topic of tonight's talk, empathy. 

Marie: Yes. 

Roger: And maybe we should just also quickly define empathy and sort of how you're thinking about empathy as it relates to compersion. 

Marie: Such a great fundamental question. So, empathy also has two main definitions. One is in the realm of sensate empathy, meaning I feel what you feel. When you experience that kind of contagion - emotional contagion - with someone, like you see someone who's sad and all of a sudden you feel that sadness in your body. That would be called contagion, emotional contagion. But there's also another form of empathy called cognitive empathy, where it's I can imagine what you feel. I might experience someone who's sad and just think, oh my gosh, I remember when I was sad. Okay, I have this cognitive relationship, but I'm not necessarily in the embodied feeling of it. And that actually is very relevant to my book and my study of compersion because I found that there are two kinds of compersion, embodied compersion and cognitive or attitudinal compersion, which really map well onto those two forms of empathy. 

Roger: Would you say that it's necessary to have empathy, when one is working toward understanding compersion or maybe developing, I'm going to use the word skill, like to navigate that as a skill to sort of hey my partner or my partners have introduced something new to me and I'm working on the skill to embrace that part of them. Is it necessary to have empathy in order to feel compersion?

Marie: Well, I don't think it's necessary to have embodied empathy. And I actually have a chapter in my book where I talk about the spectrum of compersion that goes from what I call benevolent neutrality to attitudinal compersion to embodied compersion. And all of these shades of compersion, I would say qualify as this idea that we can be in wholehearted support of our partners’ other relationships. And some of these flavors of compersion will be akin to that cognitive empathy or just, you know, like a positive acceptance like okay my partner is enjoying their relationship with somebody else. I’m not in bliss about it, but I also am generally interpreting that as a positive event, all the way to, oh wow, I am really feeling their happiness and I want to hear more because that is making me so happy to see them happy. Is the embodied kind necessary, or even better? I would say no. It's not necessary or not necessarily better. What I think is more fundamental is to be on the same team. 

Roger: When you were talking earlier about action and/or behavior as being one of the definitions, maybe like the number two definition of compersion. You know I was thinking you just said a moment ago I want to hear more. Would that be an example of behavioral compersion to say to your partner, I want to hear more about your experience or is there another way that that shows up for people in terms of like maybe how your informants talked about action and or behavior?

Marie: I actually can color that with a little story from one of my participants who was pretty much the extreme of behavioral compersion without embodied conversion, and he said that he used to have a partner who was a bisexual woman. And because she wanted to have lovers who were women, he was not really excited about it, maybe his feelings were even a little bit hurt about it but he felt like it was his duty as a good husband to support her and he would even like drive her to meet his other partners, her her other partners, pardon. And for him that was behavioral compersion. He was, yeah, he was not in a state of emotional contagion but he felt that this was the way he could show up in full support of his partner's fulfillment. 

Roger: And so, in your, I remember this section in your book and I don't remember exactly was the, the partner that was driving, was that was your informant. 

Marie: Yes. 

Roger: Yeah. And so, I'm curious if the terms either envy or jealousy were present for that informant prior to even be able to have that behavior. 

Marie: Both would coexist in his case and that is actually the case for many people, and that's another chapter in the book is the coexistence of jealousy and compersion, where yes in his case he was feeling this envy, this jealousy, sometimes a little bit of grief about not being the only partner. But at the same time he would experience this compersion, and in his case as the sense of duty, this is how I support my partner, I don't want to prevent her from living her life and being fully expanded so I'm going to show up in that way. And to me that speaks to a compersive ethic, an orientation towards relationships where, you know, sometimes we might have more than one thing going on at once, we might have a part of us that feels a little bit insecure. a little bit, you know, like not so thrilled, but we decide to act in a way that feels aligned with our values. And to me that is really, that can be very transformative. 

Roger: How would you differentiate jealousy and envy? 

Marie: Yeah, good question. Jealousy is, in the words of my colleague Joli Hamilton, who is a wonderful researcher of jealousy. She says jealousy is like a triangle. There is you, there is the person that you love or want, and then there is a perceived interrupter. So jealousy is when you feel that your valued relationship with a precious other is under threat. So, if you're in a relationship with someone and they are interested in dating someone else and you perceive that person as a threat to your relationship, that's jealousy. Envy is more of a straight line, it's I want something that you have, you know. I think you have the better jacket. 

Roger: I think you're correct. I think you are correct, Marie. 

Marie: I'm a little envious. 

Roger: How many other people are envious of this jacket? It's okay. There you go. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 

Marie: But I'm also very happy for you. 

Roger: Thank you.

Marie: You get all the compliments today, that’s ok.

Roger: I wanted to go back to something you said a moment ago. I'm a clinician and a therapist so I heard you use the word grief. And there may be other clinicians therapists here there's probably someone watching online as well and immediately I thought about that acceptance stage of grief. And I always say that when we when we think about grief and we think about acceptance, acceptance doesn't mean that like it's over. Acceptance means I've gotten to the point in my experience where I can say this thing is happening or this thing has happened. So I'm curious in that in that particular case you mentioned with your informant, because you said there was some grief there, and I just now I'm wondering like how, how might we think about compersion for those that may be struggling, for those that maybe are the first time exploring a CNM or first time exploring an open relationship. And there is some grief there. And then they might go through all of those stages, right, the anger, the bargaining, the denial, and they might get to that point of acceptance and I'm wondering, I don't know if your research covers that or if you've talked to maybe Joli around this, around what is what does what role might grief and acceptance play in how someone can get to that either embodied or that cognitive place when we're thinking about compersion. 

Marie: Yeah, I will say that compersion is very contextual. It's not something that you either have or don't have. And once you have it, you know, it can always go away. There's always, you know, like the fluidity of the context that we need to take into consideration. And that grief definitely can be part of the context. And it is really a journey for people, especially if they're coming from a background of lifelong monogamy, which the vast majority of us are. We have to grieve sometimes a worldview that is fed to us by, you know, from the time we're born. It's this idea that if someone really loves you, they will want only you. And that script can be, you know, like, it can die hard. In a sense, you know, like we have to grieve that concept or that idea. And, you know, oftentimes just the relationship that two people create in a monogamous context is based on some of these values and scripts but also some dynamics that are very much you know like the security between two people can be based on that exclusivity - that romantic or sexual exclusivity. So in order to transition to a non-monogamous partnership, people have to grieve the previous iteration of their partnership, and what made them special or what they rested their sense of security upon, and they have to oftentimes then create a new iteration of their relationship where security is no longer based on exclusivity but it can be based on other qualities of uniqueness like how do we have a unique love story, how do we have security, even if we're not the only one? So yes, it can take years, you know, in most cases, for people to grieve that mononormativity also, mononormativity is this assumption that monogamy is the only real valid way to love and have relationships. So it's definitely a process. And the more that people can grieve it the more there can be room for that positive empathy. And I'll actually maybe just add a little quote from a participant who told me that for them compersion is positive empathy with cultural expectations removed. I just love that. 

Roger: Well, you know that sort of speaks to from a cultural perspective, everyone in this room speaks mononormativity, not because they may actually practice mononormativity, that is the that is the language that is a cultural language we've all been raised with culturally if you grew up I should say, in the United States. The same way that I would say we all speak heterosexually– heterosexual fluently, even though we may not be heterosexual that's because that's the dominant language that we're all taught, right? And in the same way we also know, I could say culturally that that wasn't necessarily the case with indigenous communities prior to colonization that there was different ways to think about how we can be in relation, how we can be in community with each other, with partners, etc. So this idea of mononormativity is something that came, I would say, is really not indigenous to these lands, but it’s sort of an ideology that was put upon people. So when you start to unpack this idea of mononormativity there’s a lot of layers that you have to unpack as well, and hopefully you find the root to say Ah actually this– my expansiveness, my capacity to love many things, and if you all don't know the work of Dr. Kim Tallbear I highly recommend you check it out, because Kim always says, you know, talks about the way that you know nobody ever questions us if we love our dogs or if we love nature, but suddenly when we love another person in this way, then we have all these feelings of jealousy and or envy that arrive but true sort of to bring in that decolonial that decolonizing sexuality frame would would be to say that actually what you're talking about compersion, CNM, the multiplicity of what's capable between more than one humans is really what would be getting us back to the foundations of truth in these lands. I wanted to ask about culture in a way, which is I'm curious if you have found in your research if there different say groups or socio economic statuses, different gender, gender presentations, for which compersion and or even a CNM perspective, you found more apparent. 

Marie: Well, I want to premise that with saying that CNM, people who practice CNM are very diverse. You know there is this I would say this archetype or the stereotype of non-monogamous people as white middle to upper class heterosexual people. And this is usually what we see represented in the media. And that is not actually what's happening. It's usually that people are signing up for studies or, you know, have found themselves in those kind of represent representative roles. But truly, the populations that practice CNM have been found to be very equally distributed across the political spectrum, socio economic spectrum, gender identity spectrum, sexual orientation spectrum, and racial and cultural spectrum. So, is it easier for some groups than others to experience compersion? Is that kind of your question?

Roger: Well, somewhat. You know, I would say that I am not originally from California. I've lived here over a decade and I love living in California now. Though when I first arrived I remember very early into my time in California someone was hitting on me in a rather aggressive way I found. And I said well no, you know I'm married, and their response was, so what? And I mean I was like what what like that that is I lived in New York people didn't like where I was from people weren't talking like that, like it was you know it was a little bit more– That was very direct. And then I was like, wow, the Bay is the Bay, you know they have that Bay and okay, you know and I really began to expand even what I how I thought about what was even possible for me because I just, you know, culturally it just wasn't something that at least my friends were were talking about back in New York or what I was seeing in the community but here it seemed like it was more prevalent or more or folks were just more willing to openly discuss these types of things. And there's a specific culture to the Bay, right? Oftentimes people talk about the Bay bubble. And I'm wondering what is it about the water here? You know that Hetch Hetchy water, right, that it may be allows for these things. I say that somewhat in jest, but also to say there is something about this region where these kind of conversations are more prevalent. Do you have any thoughts about that? 

Marie: That's such a great question. You know, like there are definitely hotspots for non-monogamy communities in the United States and the Bay is top of list. And I would say that it's probably for some of the same reasons why we also have a thriving LGBTQ community. You know, we tend to be at the cutting edge of, you know, like diversity and acceptance. You know, when I first moved to the Bay Area 20 plus years ago, I got so thrilled because I felt like finally, I could be as weird as I wanted be. No one would look twice. That was why I fell in love with the Bay Area. And, um, yeah, I don't know what's in the water. But I think that diversity of sexual orientation and diversity of relationship orientation and really maybe more forms of diversity, you know, gender identity, racial diversity, etc. often goes hand in hand. And what I found in my research is that when you break one form of normativity, it's oftentimes easier to break others. For example, someone who has already come out as queer might already find themselves in a space of questioning like, okay, well, if one social norm was not really for me, maybe other social social norms are not for me either. Maybe the kind of mainstream culture doesn't really have my back. It can go two different ways though, because for some people they might say like, wow, I don't want to have to fight yet one more battle or lose yet one more area of privilege. So it depends on people's access to community, supportive community and also maybe other areas of privilege or oppression. 

Roger: I'd like to talk about that for a moment around, what about community, what about someone, a couple that was monogamous at one point then they make the choice that they want to explore new things and they're experiencing all the things we've talked about tonight. They are experiencing that sense of empathy and compersion within the relationship, though their friends now are looking at them differently or their family is looking at them differently. I'm curious around just your thoughts. How might, if someone should choose to share that with others, about my partner and I have decided to engage in this, which would be a private choice that they would make anyway, though what might someone prepare for in terms of if there's pushback from other people in their lives. 

Marie: Well, I would definitely advise people to go slower than not. A little bit, again it's a coming out process, and it is against the grain, and it is very triggering for a lot of people, the idea of non-monogamy, I know firsthand can trigger a lot of people. So, I would recommend for people to first get really clear within themselves. In terms of feeling in the place of complete self consent with their choice, so that if someone else gives them negative feedback it doesn't throw them for a loop of self doubt. So first, getting clear and solid within yourself. And then, starting small, you know, starting with people that you feel fairly safe with and feel like will, you know, like give you acceptance and starting with people who might already practice non-monogamy. That's why I think communities are so important, because they help validate our identities. And then, going outside of that, just, you know, like having that solidity and having that patience. I mean, I can imagine you know like coming out as queer is a very similar process, you know like who are you gonna tell first, you know you're going to choose people who it feels a little safer before choosing people where it feels hedgier. But coming at these conversations with self alignment I think is key. 

Roger: That idea of like coming out, right, is really interesting to me as someone that does identify as queer, gay, two spirit, etc, because I always say like why do I, you know, I'm just returning to who I always was. This idea that I'm returning to who I was, right, before all of these ideas were put into my head. And for some, they may be returning that this idea that I'm, I have this expansiveness within me to love and to be with multiple people may just be a returning, maybe, perhaps we, we could argue we may all be that way. And we've been conditioned to believe that we must practice things a particular way, though if we think about even friendship right we're like, I was so excited. I was so happy genuinely really happy when Marie got her book deal. I was so happy because I know, I think I may have gotten my book deals shortly before you did. And I really wanted Marie to get a book deal too, right? And I just wanted that for my friend and when you did, I felt, I felt a deep embodied experience of joy for you that yes this is happening for you. And, and to me, I feel that way quite often. I find it really odd, I'm going to take a little social media– but I'm going to turn this to technology in just a moment. You know when you're on social media. The other day I posted a video, and I think it got like 1000 views, and like 15 likes, and like who was watching the video not hitting the like button, hit the like button, like I don't understand why someone might engage with your content and not hit the like button I think that seems very strange to me, because I like almost, I'm like one of those people that's like like like like like like like because you're my friend I want to like your thing, right? I know how the algorithms work, the more you like it the more it goes up and those things so I'm, I am– I don't know if that would be an example of the behavioral aspects of compersion but I am– do do do do do doo – almost all day I could just sit on my phone liking things because I genuinely feel that way. I genuinely feel that way for my friends and my friendships, though I do want to talk about technology, and sort of how how we think about technology and the role it may play in compersion to say wow you know I saw this post that my friend had I'm so excited, and also how that can elicit a lot of envy and jealousy as well. What are your thoughts about technology and compersion? Social media and compersion? 

Marie: I think social media is such a great mirror for envy, jealousy, and compersion. And actually as we were talking about, on our way here, I sometimes you know like seeing all of your successes and other successes of my friends on social media, have noticed parts of me getting envious. And then noticing. Oh wow I'm feeling envy here I'm like clicking the like button but there's a little bit of like, ah, a little ouch like I don't have that, I don't do that. So, I think that moment of noticing is so important. And so potentially alchemical, because then you can choose, who are you going to be? You know, what are you going to do? How are you going to show up? Okay, there’s a part of me that is now indicating like, there's something that I want that I'm not getting or that I perceive this other person is getting. Can I use that ouch or that energy to go get more of what I want. And actually to turn towards, rather than turn away. 

Roger: Yeah. 

Marie: I do catch myself sometimes not even wanting to hit the like button because of my own envy. I’m embarrassed to say it, but I just want to be vulnerable. I think it probably happens to most of us that like, God damn you, you're like too successful. That comparison that can happen. It's all too human. And I am training myself constantly to turn towards and to say like, oh no, oh my gosh, this person is killing it. And I can do it too, in my own way, we all have a unique path, I think also recognizing that we all have a unique gift, and to tap into our gifts, our own expressions of love and creativity in the world, and to move towards that and then to move towards each other to celebrate each other's successes can just really be transformative and empowering, and I think that is the kind of medicine that we need more of in the world. What if we, you know, what if we trained ourselves to notice those moments where we separate, where we distance ourselves from each other because of that pain of jealousy and envy, and actually like turned towards ourselves, first of all, and say like, okay how can I take care of myself in that tender place? How can I give to myself? How can I get more of what I really deeply desire? And then how can I turn towards that other person. Deeply healing. 

Roger: Yeah. In full transparency I also share with Maria that I too experience envy with her career from time to time. So it's you know, it's a mutual thing. And, and more- more though happiness, right? It's it's always that, oh gosh, Marie’s doing this thing and I wanna do that thing, and good for Marie. You know, I still like it. I'm sorry, I will still like the post myself, though I do have that kind of experience of like, oh, I would like to speak at that bookstore, and I think that's really interesting. And I think this is a question that I'm very curious again– Sort of putting on my clinical hat here is that sense when you feel or understand that, oh, I've got this feeling. I've got this sensation, or there's an emotion emerging within me, whether that be envy, jealousy, and/or happiness or compersion, what do we do with that? That that moment when we recognize that we have choice I think can be one of the most transformative and powerful things for human beings to experience. Like, we have a choice in this moment, what do I do with it? 

Marie: Right.

Roger: Yeah. 

Marie: A question that just came to mind right now that can be a very clarifying question is, how do we not weaponize our jealousy and our envy? How do we not weaponize it against ourselves or against anyone else? What would happen if we did not, you know, what, you know, what possibilities could be born? 

Roger: We often think of empathy as something I do to you or toward you or toward, and rarely do we recognize we also have empathy for ourselves and in those moments of, oh, there's that struggle, how can I have some empathy for myself in this moment? 

Marie: Yeah. Yes. 

Roger: I'm wondering now that we're sort of, you mentioned parts, I love parts work, internal family systems, I think it's really, really fascinating. And I'm wondering about the parts within self that might experience conflict with, here's the part of me that experiences the compersion, here's the part of me that experiences the jealousy. How do we navigate those two in a way that allows for what might be the more present experience, not necessarily the loudest because oftentimes jealousy and envy may be louder than the compersion, I would imagine, sort of thinking about my own clinical practice, right? The folks don't come to me because they're happy. Folks come to me because they're experiencing, you know, jealousy or envy, right? So how do we be with those parts of ourselves to normalize just like we did a moment ago to say, yeah, we still experience envy even though we're dear friends, to normalize those experiences. Any thoughts about that? 

Marie: Well, I think to name those experiences is usually a great first step. And actually me and Joli Hamilton, the jealousy researcher, coined a word for that last year, because we both work with people and we see a lot of people coming with this conflict between feeling jealousy and wanting to feel compersion or having an attitude of compersion but jealous triggers. And we coined the word comperstruggle. 

Roger: Comperstruggle.

Marie: Yes. 

Roger: I like that.

Marie: And to name that comperstruggle. To name the fact that, wow, like, I really do want to show up in full support and full participation with your happiness. But there's also these parts of me that are rebelling, that are angry, that are sad, that are grieving, that are fearful, that are feeling betrayed even. To be able to first name it for ourselves, and then to be able to communicate with our partners in a way that feels safe for the relationship, not, you know, just putting the blame and creating harm in the relationship but to voice it in a safe space that can be vulnerable, that can be so healing, because oftentimes, the worst part in all this, the worst part of having a comperstruggle or struggling with jealousy is the shame that comes with it. No one wants to be called or seen as a jealous person, especially in a polyamorous or non-monogamous community where sometimes it's even more like, oh, if you're experiencing too much jealousy, you know, you might be seen as, you know, not, not in for the party or, you know, it depends. I don't want to say that all communities are like that but I've heard that from a lot of people where they felt that they were not doing a good job at being non-monogamous because they were struggling with jealousy. So, I think it's super important to create those safe conversations with the people around us to be able to bring all of ourselves, and then choose how are we going to show up. 

Roger: Therapists and clinicians by the way are not immune to jealousy and/or envy. And in particular, and you know when you're working in the realm of sexuality as I do clinically, I've- I always tell my clients you know I don't need to know the details of what you're talking about the important thing therapeutically is how you feel about those things that's why you're here. And if you want to share, I'm more than happy– and trust I hear all kinds of things people tell me all kinds of things – and I have found myself from time to time, kind of going like, I have, I've never heard that before that's that's interesting, I get curious about it, I want I want to lean in a little bit more. That's the work to do outside of the session. I think Marie that what you have done, the conversation that you have added to is so important from a clinical perspective. What do you think is important for those of us that practice, either psychotherapy and/or coaching of some kind to really understand about people who are struggling with either jealousy or envy and/or struggling with because they are experiencing compersion and they feel as if their community is rejecting them because of it. More from a clinician's perspective if you have an idea of how, because I don't know if other clinicians ever got any training around compersion, I got zero. So and it's a relatively newer term for me, you know in terms of the clinical work, that I don't really have the training for it so I don't want to just pretend like I know what the person is talking about I feel like there needs to be more training. This book is great. This this book by the way, just a little plug for my friend should be in every couples counseling or relational counseling course because it really it is so well written so well researched and so accessible that I think it's great for current clinicians or those that are training, but I'm wondering if if you have a perspective on the importance that a clinician or a coach could play and helping someone either develop their sense of compersion and/or work with their envy and jealousy. 

Marie: Yeah, yeah, thank you for asking that question. And there is a lot in that book about this. I think from the jealousy perspective there is a chapter called developing a non-mononormative relationship to jealousy as a factor in promoting compersion and I think that's a really important perspective to understand. And more importantly, like people often comes to people like you and me wanting to experience more compersion. And what we need to understand as clinicians or coaches like I am, is that you cannot spiritual bypass yourself into compersion. Knowing the word is helpful because it can give you an idea of what is possible. But what is more important is to understand how to create a fertile terrain for it, because compersion will emerge, more or less naturally when different factors are in place. And I actually developed a worksheet that people can download on my website, WhatIsCompersion.com to identify how they land on different factors, such as those individual, relational, and social factors that I found either promote or hinder compersion. So the more people can enrich their terrain at these different levels, you know, whether it's with their relationship with themselves, with their relationship with their partners, with their relationships with their metamours, who are their partners’ other partners, with their relationships with their communities and how much support they have. All of these will really impact whether or not or how much compersion someone might expect to to feel or experience. So a coach or a therapist can look at these factors and say like, okay, like, how can we work on all these different levels? How can we make your relationship with yourself stronger? How can we make your relationship with your partners stronger? Can we, you know, like, work on the communication on the sense of safety on the sense of trust that is happening there? How do you feel about their other relationships? Can we create a meaning making that is in alignment with your values and what you want to create and and how you feel about all this? Like, let's get real and really look at what does this all mean to you? So there's, you know, the narrative perspective of what this means to you. And there's the how do you create safety in your nervous system, etc. There's so many angles that clinicians can work with in order to create that fertile terrain. 

Roger: Wonderful. I want to know for you, as I mentioned your book is incredibly well researched. And you are a scholar. And where would you like to take your research next? 

Marie: There is so much to do in this field. Really, I think that my book is scratching the surface, in a sense, because it is the first comprehensive scholarly book. But truly, I would love to research compersion in different communities, sub communities of non-monogamy, such as, you know, solo polyamorous people who are deciding to actually like have their self relationship as their first relationship, and other relationships as being, you know, not primary. And also, you know, people who practice swinging or people who practice open relationship versus polyamory. So that would be a really great research study. And I would also love to research compersion outside of consensual non-monogamy. How does it show up in collegial relationships, in sibling relationships, in friendships, like and what are the factors there, how does it differ, and how does it not differ from non-monogamy? So yeah, there is so much to be still uncovered. And another angle that really interests me and probably will interest you is the somatic side of compersion. How can somatic practitioners really help people embody, you know, those new feelings and emotions like really understanding how it works in the body would be fascinating. 

Roger: Thank you for that. As you were sharing, I was thinking back to something I thought of earlier in our conversation, which is the origins of the term compersion, and how it's really been used for quite some time within the CNM poly open relationship, and now we're talking about possibly using the term between friends, family, siblings, etc. And I just wonder how if you've, if you've asked anyone from from the CNM community how they might feel about the term evolving to then be used in other areas. Because sometimes you know folks want to want to take– That's our term, right? 

Marie: While I was discussing the encyclopedia definition with my colleague Sharon Flicker, I was also talking to other colleagues about that, you know, how, how should we define it should we include contexts, other than non-monogamy, and I got different feedback on that. Some people were very pro, they were like yeah of course you know we don't really have another word for this in English. So we need it. And, I mean, as a matter of fact it actually kind of helps normalize non-monogamy to extend that meaning to other contexts. And some people were against it, because they felt like no this word was coined in a context of non-monogamy and this should stay our word. But it seemed like to me the pros outweighed the cons, but also I think more so, you can't stop people from using the word how they're going to use it. And I think that my research really reflects that is people telling me how they were experiencing compersion and how they were using the term and that included things like attitudinal compersion and things like compersion outside of their romantic or intimate relationships so the research really reflects that qualitative research from the interviews that I conducted. 

Roger: Marie and I both went to school here, so I'm about to say something about CIIS in a positive way which is, this is a school that oftentimes allows folks to think beyond traditional sort of academic parameters, right, and I know when you and I were talking to a week and a half ago or so, you know, I said to you like, what did your department think of your research? You know, did you get any pushback from your department and you know you shared that that really wasn't an issue that you experienced and then I asked like what would you think if you had gone to a different school? What if you went to like San Francisco State or what if you went to Berkeley? What do you think would have been their perspective around what you're talking about which, again, for some folks can be very threatening, right, even even in in a maybe even if that's why I asked about like your department like was your department sort of threatened by this idea that you were talking about this, the expansiveness? And so I'm just I'm just curious about your thought around like sort of the role that academia or scholarly world plays in the dissemination of the ideology of compersion. 

Marie: Well, I think that I personally got really lucky with my department and with the professors who were really on my team from the beginning, who had a personal interest in that topic. But I was actually shocked when I was here at CIIS noticing how open minded the student body was. But when I talked about sexuality, there was a lot of contraction. You know it seemed like everything else was allowed, we could talk about psychedelics, we could talk about altered states of consciousness, we could talk about so many out of the box topics, but sexuality and non-monogamy was still pretty scary. I think that times are starting to change, you know I'm starting to sense you know and also seeing the statistics of people who are now intrigued or even adopting non-monogamy, it's definitely on a steep incline nationally. But I do think that there are hubs you know like you said there's something in the water in the Bay Area. But if also I was to go and try to study compersion in a different location that might not have gone so well. 

Roger: And at the top of our time, you, it was mentioned that you have been on several different podcasts including Savage Love, which has an international audience. I'm curious around how your work is landing outside of the Bay, you know have you have you talked to folks in the Midwest yet, have you talked to folks down and where my folks are from Alabama, right, who might have a different perspective around these things? Have you reached out to those folks and if so what's the what's the feedback been? 

Marie: There's definitely less community support for people who live outside of big metropolitan areas. And, you know, I had some of my research participants for my study who were in smaller places or more, you know, like, more remote places where they did not have access to non-monogamous community. I also have a lot of coaching clients who live in places outside of California, outside of big cities who struggle more. And oftentimes for those folks they rely more on online communities. I have friends who host something called the Normalizing Non-monogamy Community and that's an online platform which, yeah, they have people from all different countries, all different towns across the United States, who want that kind of platform where they can be themselves and express themselves and make friends. So I think the value of technology here cannot be overstated. But then the difficulty in coming out and being fully oneself outside you know of one's relationship, that is such a big factor in promoting compersion, and when you can't be yourself in your community it can be more difficult so I just, yeah, I wish that everyone had access to supportive community and just that society would move towards more acceptance of relationship diversity. Just like we're moving towards more acceptance of all kinds of diversities, you know, sexual orientation, racial, cultural diversity, gender diversity, etc. I think that relationship diversity is sort of this next milestone or next frontier. And we need to talk about it, because, you know, about 5% of Americans are currently in a consensually non-monogamous relationship and 20% have been at some point so it's a pretty substantial proportion of people. 

Roger: Friend, I just want to once again say congratulations to you. I think what you are offering the world really is such a gift. And I want to give you one last moment. If there's one little piece of sparkle if you will, that you can leave our guests with tonight around either your work or compersion and/or your book.

Marie: I do have a few favorite quotes from my book and maybe I'll read one that to me, I think goes to the core of why I had such a spark around the topic of compersion. And it is compersion as an expression of romance, because to me, compersion is romantic. I just think that empowering people that we love to be more of themselves is such a deep act of love. So I'll just read you that quote plus a quote of my participant who I pseudonym to protect confidentiality. “While the traditional romantic paradigm centers jealousy and possession as a main feature of passionate love, folks in my study found that giving their partner what they really want, including the encouragement to fulfill one's intimate desires with others was a romantic stance of the highest order. They saw pleasure, taking pleasure in their partners pleasure as a gift of devotion and deep love. Tyrone, a 38 year old facilitator described compersion as a quote unquote romance joy or quote unquote romantic joy.” And then I quote Tyrone saying, “I love that compersion is romantic. I feel this level of romantic joy. I would do anything for you, and I get to see that you are getting this thing that I know you want, and I love to see you in bliss and pleasure. I love to see that and I love to witness that. It's a level of intimacy and connection and partnership. It's just like if my partner says, I like flowers, and I bring them flowers once in a while. If their desire is to be tied up and have a girl or a guy present and play with them. To me it's the same thing. It's like, I'm going to give you the thing that I know you enjoy. Because that's how I show my love by intentionally giving you what you actually want. What gives you joy, the things that you desire in your life. I want to give that to you because I'm your partner.”

Roger: Beautiful. Well, thank you for giving us a bit of what we want, which is your intellect, your joy, your beautiful smile and all the things. So folks, if you would just join me in thanking Dr. Marie Thouin for sharing so much with us tonight. I know I've learned so much from your book and I learned a lot from our talk tonight. So, merci, mvto, thank you so much. 

Marie: Thank you Roger. Thank you all so much for being here.

[Uplifting theme music begins]

Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Izzy Angus, Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, Nikki Roda, and Pele Shalev. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities. 

[Theme music concludes]