CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

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[Cheerful theme music begins] 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Renowned certified Gottman therapist and author Elizabeth Earnshaw offers a culturally tuned-in, LGBTQIA+ friendly approach, and an accessible guide to healing relationships and creating enduring intimacy for unmarried and married couples in her work and writing. In her latest book, I Want This to Work, Elizabeth shares her expertise and presents for today’s generation the most effective and proven steps for relationship success. In this episode, CIIS professor and licensed psychologist Margaret Boucher joins Elizabeth for a conversation about how to navigate difficult relationship issues to create stronger and more resilient partnerships. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on December 3rd, 2021. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

[Theme music concludes] 

Margaret Boucher: Hi, Elizabeth or Liz? Which do you prefer? 

Elizabeth Earnshaw: Liz is so much easier. So, you can just call me Liz [laughs] 

Margaret: Great, great. Well, welcome Liz. I'm so looking forward to talking with you today. I have to say, as I was preparing for this, I sort of, you know, in reading your book I was imagining, you know, kind of taking a real professional stance. But as I was reading your book, it was such a beautiful invitation that I found myself reflecting on my own relationship and kind of exploring. And so, I just want to first thank you for that. I think that it was really lovely to read your book and I imagine anyone who sort of picks it up will feel similarly invited.  

Elizabeth: Thank you for sharing that with me. I'm so glad that that's kind of where it took you because it's nice, you know as a therapist myself it's nice when we can like enter into books, I think, and be able to like remove the professional piece of ourselves sometimes. 

Margaret: Absolutely, and really like sort of connect with it, sort of in multiple different ways. So yeah, I definitely found myself– and similarly I found you were so present in like I felt like I was already in relationship with you like before today. And so, I'm really looking forward to like actually having a conversation with you, but wanted to kind of also share that. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: That’s great! Thank you so much for sharing that with me. 

Margaret: Absolutely. First. I want to say congratulations for writing– I mean, for writing a book. That's a huge feat, and I'm curious sort of about your journey to writing a book and working with couples. I'm sure that's, you know, a lot, big question, but I would love to kind of yeah hear about that. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, sure. So, I initially thought I was going to be many different things. I have like a very indirect path to what I ended up doing. I went to school for international relations, then I went to school for education, and then I decided to move into organizational development, and I just like couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. After I graduated, I felt kind of lost. I was like I have this degree in organizational development, but what business is going to hire me to consult for them? I've never run a business. I have– I have no idea what I'm going to do with this, and I was driving down the highway and there was a billboard on the highway that said, "join our couples and sex therapy program," [laughs] and I thought, you know what, that sounds really interesting. And I went home, and I applied to this program that I saw on the side of the highway, and I got in. I didn't apply anywhere else. I took, you know, my exams and did all of that, applied, I got in, and I– just, the rest was history. [Margaret: Wow.] It was where I was supposed to be, but it was not one of those stories where I would say that from childhood, I was thinking I wanted to be a therapist or I thought I was going to work with couples. And then I went through that program thinking I was going to work with families, because I love children. I just like that is my passion in life is little kids, and I was hearing that you work with kids. 

Margaret: Yes. 

Elizabeth: And I did it. I went to New Orleans after graduating and I was working with kids and I was working with families and I realized I wasn't good at it. It just wasn't something that I'm skilled at, working with kids. What I was really good at was talking with the parents. 

Margaret: Sure. 

Elizabeth: I loved that part, like I loved being with the kids, but I wasn't a therapist for the kids. It was very much like I want to play with you. I want to talk to you all of these things, but I don't actually know how this is connecting and it wasn't my thing. And so, I started working with the parents. They would come in like after school, and they would come in for like little couples therapy sessions. 

Margaret: Sure. 

Elizabeth: And I adored it. So, I decided that that was going to be the direction I moved into. And that has been what I've been doing ever since. And I'm so glad because it is just, it's my passion in life. 

Margaret: I love to hear that because so often I see, like, you know, people who work with kids and it's like, I love working with kids, but the parents, oh my gosh, I can't deal with the parents. And so, what I'm hearing is like ohp, kids are great, but like, actually it's the parents. That's where the juice is for you. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, like if you're my friends’ kids or if you're cute kids playing on the playground or my own child or any child. I adore you. I am a terrible therapist for you. And yes, I tend to be the opposite. Most people are like, I do not want to work with couples. They are so difficult. I love it. I think it's so much fun. 

Margaret: And so how– I mean, and from there to writing a book. I'm curious about what inspired you and kind of, who are your biggest influences? 

Elizabeth: Yeah, so I forgot that part of the question. So I've been working with couples for over a decade now and it, like I said, it's my passion, and several years ago I decided that I wanted to start creating different tiers of information for people around relationship health, because I was noticing that couples were coming in and I was having to choose, do I help the two of you get into conversation or do I provide psychoeducation? And a lot of the session with, you know, you have three people in the room, so when you're trying to explain a concept, it takes a little longer than maybe explaining it to one person. And so, I was noticing that so much time was being taken up on concepts that really if they had had access to them before coming in the room, there would just be this playing field that was a little bit more level, and I just felt as if I wanted to provide that. And I also recognized that a lot of people were never going to be able to see me as a therapist. They aren't near couples therapists. They don't have the funds for couples therapy. They are nervous about it. Whatever it is.  

And so, I thought like what are these different ways that people could get access? I started writing blog posts, just giving the types of things that I was kind of regurgitating to my couples and I was thinking "you don't have to pay me for this, you could read this in a blog post." So I start writing blog posts after my sessions, you know, these are five things that I talked about today, and I think they could help you. And then I never ever was on social media. I did not understand it, but I was like maybe if I went on Instagram or something like that, I could share tips, and I started doing that and it kind of blew up, and it's so at this point I think I have like 255,000 followers on Instagram that are getting this information from me and it's turned into something I never ever imagined it would turn into.  

And in that, I realized that people really do want information. They want to know how to have healthy relationships. They want to understand what is it that they're missing. We don't go to school for that stuff, and I was really lucky, I had an agent reach out to me and say would you like to write about these things in a book? I think it would be really great. And I was like, absolutely. I would love to compile it into a book. And so, since 2019 I've been writing the book, and it was a really arduous process. 

Margaret: I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: If you go into a store and you look, like, honor those books, because every single one of them was a process. I– it was intense, but yeah, that was kind of the story of that. 

Margaret: I could so appreciate that. It's like you're meeting people at so many different levels, you know, the book and then obviously in your sessions and it sounds like you train folks and then Twitter and that there's all these different ways of really being able to offer people resources to think about their relationships, it's wonderful. Yeah, I'm curious sort of, you know, so what, I mean, this is broad, so, whatever comes from, I mean, like what does a healthy relationship look like? 

Elizabeth: Hmm. That's a good question. So, I think a lot about all of the different relationship research we have, it can be confusing and overwhelming because it's like Gottman says it's these things, EFT says it's these things, PAX says it's all of this. But if you look at all of it, it's kind of saying the same things over and over again in different ways. And what it's saying is number one, you need your relationship to be respectful. Right? And the way Gottman says that is he's saying like don't use the four horsemen. That's not respectful. Right? If you're showing contempt, if you're saying mean things to the other person, if you're not taking responsibility for your part. The other thing that we see in the research is that you need reliability. So, for example, if I am sometimes feeling connected to you and then at other times, you're like ghosting me or you're acting completely differently or I come home at night and sometimes you're really pleasant with me and at other times you're like completely off, then our relationship isn't going to feel good either. And the last thing that we really need is responsiveness and responsiveness is like, if I reach my hand out to you literally and metaphorically, are you there for me? You know, when I tell you I'm having a hard time. Do you show me empathy? Do you care that I'm having a hard time, or do you make it harder for me? If I tell you I'm celebrating something. Do you celebrate with me? Are you able to be responsive in moments of pain and in moments of joy? And so, when I see those three things showing up in a relationship with a couple, then it means that they are in a good relationship, even if there's rocky things. And when I see any of those areas missing, I at least know where to start with them, right? Like, okay, you're really struggling with this responsiveness thing. What's that block? What's, what's preventing the vulnerability? What's going on with reliability? Why isn't there this commitment here? You know, it's really hard to trust if we can't rely on each other and then we're not going to be able to be vulnerable and responsive. So, it gives you these little areas that you can work on. 

Margaret: Yeah, I really found that throughout your book that the 3 R's, you name them. That was sort of both the kind of in the assessment of, like, where people are at, but also how to attend to them. How to think about them throughout, which has a kind of a sense of their importance of sort of bedrocks for. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. 

Margaret: And you know, I guess, you know what, I was going to say what advice can you give for me– for people tuning in– you know, what I imagine is people who are tuning in to this conversation or folks that are either wanting to work on their relationship or helping others to work on their relationship. And I wonder if you– what kind of advice you give for people kind of starting off on that path. Both in starting but also in maintaining any, any– 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. Maintaining a relationship, starting a relationship that feels good. Maintaining a relationship that feels– 

Margaret: Yeah, like maintaining it or like working on it, I guess I imagine, and I definitely see this a lot, you know, in my practice like, oh, I'm really excited about this book or I want to talk to, you know, I want to work on my relationship and there's kind of a this flurry of enthusiasm and then the kind of maintenance or that kind of digging in can kind of peter out. And curious if there's sort of any recommendations you have? 

Elizabeth: I love that you brought up that flurry or that energy that people might feel when they're really excited about starting therapy or reading a book or practicing a new skill and then it can start to kind of peter out over time and then it's pretty frustrating, right? Because what will happen, and I'm sure you've experienced this too is that there will be kind of this quick shift and then, you know, a few months later, the couple will come in or whoever I'm working with and they'll say, well, we got into that same argument again, and like, it, I just don't know if this is working or we did the date thing that you suggested. And we kind of kept it up for six weeks, but we haven't really been able to have lunches together anymore. I don't think we've done it in about a month.  

And so that motivation is there at first and then what happens is that homeostasis comes back into play where, with, and what that means is that human beings love to stay the same. We want to be different. We want it. We see it. We say that we want that feeling and at the same time, we're kind of stuck in our sameness where it's uncomfortable to be different, it requires so many changes everywhere, right? It's not just, we're going to change this one thing and that's it. When you change that one thing, you have to change other things too. And so, what will happen is you'll go back into this homeostasis, this sameness that you need to have because the other things feel so hard.  

And so, the number one thing I tell people when they're starting this and it's exciting is I say, that's wonderful and I'm really excited for you. I'm really proud of you. You're going to be able to do this and I want to normalize that you're going to have a fight again that you're going to get bored of these changes that you're probably in a couple months going to, you know, not spend as much time together as you've committed to doing now. And so, what we actually need to do is plan for that moment. Let's talk about when that happens, like how can we talk about it instead of feeling shame about it. How can we make space to reassess and say this movement is temporary and when we need to change it again or we need to assess it again, we can do that. 

Margaret: I love that as sort of letting them know like hey, this is going to, there's going to be moments where the energy is going to flag here. How can you think about that as you're motivated and excited right now and plan for that? That's great. Yeah, it's wonderful. And what happens if one person is like super into it, you know, buys your book or wants to go to therapy and the other partners like okay, and like never picks it up or doesn't do the prompts, like, how? Yeah, what I imagine you– imagine that is familiar to you. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, probably most people that pick up the book. [both laugh] I think it's really common, you know, most people who come into couples therapy, probably, you know, also family therapy… when there's more than one person, there's often a leader of that. It's very rare that– it's not unheard of, but it's rare that both people are equally invested in the process of therapy. Not that they're not equally invested in the relationship. There's one person who's a big believer in reading the book or going to therapy or whatever it is. And they say like, this is going to be our answer. Like, it's going to make it better. And there's another human being or more than one human being who they have another answer in their head. The answer is, why don't we stop talking about it? The answer is, I think we should just see what happens. The answer is, I saw that there's this coaching program, whatever it is. So first, I like to normalize, doesn't mean there's something wrong with the other person that they're not as invested. I think we really quickly can jump into this well, if they're not invested, red flag, must mean that they don't want to be with you. Not true.  

And so, one thing I would suggest is get curious with them. I'm reading this book. It's something that seems like it'll be really helpful to us, for me. I would love to know, what do you think? Like, how do you think our relationship is right now? And if a person says, oh, I think it's really good. Now that's really interesting. Like what feels good about it. Yeah, I can agree to that. There's, here, there's some things I would love to talk about and if they say, you know, it doesn't feel good, and we're on the same page, it’s that being curious around, well, if this doesn't feel helpful, what do you think does, you know, it's seeing what they say? Sometimes, they'll say something that's avoidant because they're feeling anxious, right? I think we should wait it out. I think it's normal for couples to go through this. Just what happens if we have to go to a book or a therapist for that, that probably means we have too big of a problem and that's scary to me whatever it is but hear out what they have to say. So that's number one, when the other person's not invested. Let's not jump to criticism, assumptions, shaming them. 

Margaret: Sure. 

Elizabeth: Step two is you can read it by yourself, and you can start to make the changes that you want to make for yourself. When we're in dynamics that we don't like we both usually play a role in that. That doesn't mean that there's equal blame, but it does mean that we start to dance together. And if you're not liking the dance, your other, the other person doesn't want to change the dance. You can still change the dance. That might mean that they're dancing by themselves by the end. It might mean that the two of you end up dancing on each other's toes for a little while. 

Margaret: Sure. 

Elizabeth: Or it might mean that things flow differently. So, looking at it as this is just me reflecting, seeing what I need to do, how I feel about things. And then the other piece is just drawing them in where, where they're allowing you to, you know, so it's like, hey, I just read this chapter. Here's a few questions that I'm curious about asking you, would you be open to talking with me? The book I designed it so you can read it by yourself if you want. And if you have nobody that wants to do it with you, there's journaling prompts. If you have somebody who's reading it with you, or who is halfway in the door with it with you, here's talk about it prompts you can ask them. But just remembering, this is relational. So, there's two pieces. There's two people, having different feelings. And what do we need to do to kind of identify both of those things? 

Margaret: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. I can, I would imagine that it takes the pressure off, right? Like this book can be used individually and still have a shift, that can be used together, you can start reading it and then get excited and invite someone else in that. There's a way in which even being in relationship with the book itself can be dynamic. 

Elizabeth: Absolutely. 

Margaret: As we were talking, I had this question kind of around culture and inclusivity, you know, the book, you know, really resonated with me. And then of course, I'm reflecting like well, you know I'm a white, middle-class, cisgender woman, you know, raised in American culture, therapist. I mean, kind of all of the like, you know, sort of like this really resonated and I found myself wondering and I mean even– when you're talking about, you know, couples who– there may be folks who are less excited about therapy and I guess I'm wondering about sort of the inclusivity of the book, you know, you speak to that and kind of how you think about that in terms of folks with different cultural backgrounds. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, so one of the reasons I felt really passionate about writing the book was that when I was suggesting books for my clients to read, they included information that is applicable to most people in relationships that we see across the board that research shows in different ways applies. And they really made me very sad because they almost never represented even the names of couples who were anything but assumed white. And it was, they were always very heteronormative. And I had one couple that I was working with, they were a same-sex couple, and I offered them a book, and they came in and they said we really loved this book. And we noticed that there is not one same-sex couple referenced in here that could even be imagined. You know, the names were so heteronormative. Does this apply to us? And it really bothered me and, you know, I felt– I felt embarrassed, obviously, that I had never noticed that myself, you know, I read all of these books again, and again and again and I was like a white woman in straight relationships. It just didn't even hit me at that time.  

And so, I stopped recommending those books. And I started in like creating summaries of what was helpful within them and still applicable and shared some research stuff with those couples where I was like, yes, the stuff absolutely applies to you. It has this research has even been done on same-sex couples or Black American couples or whatever, but when I wrote this book, I said to the publisher it absolutely has to represent many different types of relationships and couples. And it has to do that in many ways and I made sure that the book was read through by many different types of people, to be sure that I represented them. There's many points in the book where I do say things like this research was done and on– you know, when I talk about the mental load, this is mostly talked about in terms of hetero couples and what we know is that same-sex couples struggle with this as well. And so really kind of allowing people to see themselves in something that they are a part of and yet sadly have always been left out of was very important to me. 

Margaret: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely was having read a number of books myself, but so, you know, I have to say, like, the representation was far greater than what I'm seeing. And I appreciate kind of the holding of both about like, okay, these are skills that apply across the board to relationships. And here's the research that says that, and here are real-life examples of folks who you know have different names, are you know, queer, trans, who come from different cultural backgrounds and that, that was found throughout. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, and one thing I think, you know, I even talk– er, not think, I know I talk about is how that's really even important in our relationships, is being able to recognize that there's, like, different power in our relationships. And one, one point that I talked about, you know, feeling comfortable with your partner to have conversations like that, and that can happen in any relationship. Even if you feel like, there's not an obvious difference, where there are differences and like the power that can come from– or the empowerment, that can come from saying, hey, you know, I recognize like I'm a man and you're a woman. And what does that mean for our relationship, and are there things play out between us because of some of the ways I was socialized? Or if you're in a relationship where you're, you know, a person of color and your partner is white and is your white partner able to say, hey, like, these are some things I've been thinking about that probably show up differently for me and I just want to make sure that we can talk about this and I recognize that there's ways in in our lives that like things have played out differently for us just because of who we are as different people, and I think that's a really important conversation for people to have in their relationships. 

Margaret: Yeah. To be able to kind of really be able to notice them and to notice how I had a– I was curious about that, like how you helped couples negotiate that, because of course, they're getting played out in the relationship, right. Patriarchy is there, racism is there, like, how could they not be played out? And yet often times I think, at least I found with folks, like, it's like, oh no, but we love each other, you know, like there's this sense that that sometimes doesn't or shouldn't, and yet of course is– 

Elizabeth: Well, first we have to get rid of shame. So that response is defensive, and it's a defensive response that is coming from a gentle place. Like of course we don't, and there was actually a conversation that my husband and I had several years ago where I pointed something out to him and there was a lot of defensiveness and it was just like– and I have like, the most wonderful husband. Like he has quit his job. He does all of the at-home work and care and all of these things that do not fit into the stereotype and several years ago, that was not the case. And I was carrying a ton of the load. There was an interaction that happened out in public and with somebody saying something to me that felt very sexist. And I remember telling my husband about this and he was really defensive, like, of course, I would have noticed if he was sexist. Don't you see our relationship? Our relationship is so equitable, and all of this stuff. And we really had to be able to get to the point where he was able to get past like any shame that he would feel around that truth being real for him to be able to be responsive. So going back to that R and just being able to like sit with it and recognize that like, I'm not shaming him. I'm just talking about my experience and how powerful it is for him and that moment, even if he didn't see it to be able to say, wow, I actually didn't see– like, even that's actually even more powerful than saying I know it all, to say I didn't see it. I didn't see that. That man said that thing. I didn't hear it that way, that's really interesting like that. I've kind of lived in a way where I've not had to pay attention to that, and you haven't had that opportunity and I do want to hear from you about it. And we've come so far where he's able to now non-defensively just be like, yeah, what the heck? Like totally heard that or I didn't hear that. That's so wild that like you noticed that I missed it and whatever, but I have your back. But those can be such powerful and supportive questions, supportive conversations to have. 

Margaret: Thank you for sharing that. I'm thinking about kind of all of the difficult, you know, sort of conversations couples have and I so appreciate that kind of vulnerability. You just, you know, the like being able to be like, oh, I didn't know that about myself, or I didn't notice that. And how yes, how valuable that is when you're trying to have– 

Elizabeth: Yeah. And something I say when couples are grappling with this and there is the person who's feeling defensive because they want that to be like true love conquers all, I love you so much. I would never think this thing about you or want to treat you badly or miss somebody hurting you because I love you so much and just being able to really be able to meet that person where they are and be like, I know you love them so much and it can still be true. And are you able to just hear it? Are you able to just be present with it? Because that's really what that love can be about. It can be about I love you so much, I love you enough to hear you about something that actually makes me very uncomfortable. 

Margaret: Yes, what's coming to mind now is sort of kind of this self-awareness piece, but perhaps is the depth-oriented therapist in me, but as I was reading your book, I was like overjoyed to see like how much emphasis you put on like self-awareness, understanding one's own, you know, family dynamics. And, you know, what we bring to relationship from those early relationships. I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about that and why that's so important. 

Elizabeth: I would love to, because it shows up everywhere in relationships, we can't help ourselves. Literally, we can't help ourselves because, you know, when we come into the world, we are quickly downloading information. And one of the most important things to figure out very quickly is getting responsiveness from human beings, especially grownup human beings. And so, we learn very quickly to watch their patterns with us and each other, and we pick up skills without even knowing that we've picked up skills to keep ourselves relationally safe, which for some people relational safety might mean, my caregivers feel really good to me. And so the way I keep myself relationally safe is to ask for help when I need it to develop autonomy where I can because I'm able to do all of this, I have that freedom. For some people being relationally safe is actually being individually safe. So, it's like, I'm gonna do whatever I can to protect myself because in some way you're dangerous to me, and it could be you're emotionally dangerous to me. You know, I can't figure you out. You are sometimes there for me. You're not there for me. It hurts my feelings, whatever, or it could be like, physical danger. It could also be like, you're just too much. You're always in my space, you don't give me autonomy, whatever it is.  

So, we learn all of these habits for dealing with that and then we grow up and we're still using those habits for dealing with it. On top of it, we have traumas that we've experienced. On top of it, we have friendships that molded us in certain ways. I talk about growing up and growing out. I think we spent a lot of time talking about growing up. Sometimes you have this attachment style, you have this, you have that. And I talked about all of that. We don't spend a ton of time talking about how much our friendship circles can impact the way we treat our partners, you know, if I have a friendship circle right now, I'm like, amazed with the people that I'm around are all so like relationally aware, right? And so, my husband's guy friends are all very much like kind about each other's partners, and open about their relationships. My colleagues who I'm on a work trip with right now, they all brought their partners with them and like we're all together. But when I was growing up, I had friendship groups that were like, who cares about, like, who you're in a relationship with, and I've known people who have said things like, what have– you know, not maybe in my friendship group, but I've seen friendship groups who kind of support unhealthy relational dynamics. You, you also can be influenced by if they're not nice to you. If they make you feel bad in a relationship, you have other romantic relationships potentially that have been hurtful to you.  

So, we learn all of these things while we're growing up and we bring them into our partnerships and adulthood. We're not really aware of it. And the more that we can kind of figure out, Oh, that's interesting. That's why I do that thing when I'm asking for what I need. I do it really passively. Hmm. Where's that come from? Is there a new way to do it? Or when I'm upset with someone, I get really aggressive, and I push them away. And that made sense when I was young because I needed to tell people to back up and you know, get away and leave me alone. And now it's really preventing me from getting close. So, the more you know about all of that the more you can be aware now and you can kind of choose what you're going to do with it. 

Margaret: Yeah, I really and what I appreciate what you just said, is like it made sense then. I think people so often I see like there's so much shame like why do I keep doing this thing that I know it's not working, we just have to really, like, that really kept you safe. Like you really needed to develop that early on. Yeah. That's maybe not working so well for you right now, so let's look at it, but that you know that there's a there's a reason why people developed those… 

Elizabeth: Always. Yeah, I think that's the most important thing to start with is when, if you recognize you're struggling with something in relationships. And by the way, news flash, we all do. Like, I will take the shame out of the room by just saying, I'm a critical person when I get mad at my husband. I go to criticism, I've gotten better, but I go to criticism. If I have shame about that, I'm never going to touch it, right, but if I can say something to myself like, hmm. You know what, that makes sense. Like, when you were younger, you heard people do that. Like, it's not even a defense mechanism. It's just, that's what people did when they were upset. They, you know, went– they went for it. And so, you're used to doing that, and it's not nice. Got to do it differently. That compassion, though, opens the door for being able to do it differently. And so, so yeah, being able to remove that shame. Let your– remind yourself. Everybody has stuff. Because we were all raised by human beings and then being able to like, step into it to make changes 

Margaret: I often find, you know, people often also choose partners who remind them of the same characteristics they grew up with and there's kind of like, why would I do this? This is very painful. Why do I keep sort of repeating that? I wonder if could talk a little bit about like that piece, too. 

Elizabeth: That piece is huge, and it comes up all the time when I'm working with individuals. They're like, I don't know how I did this again, but I really tried this time to not find this person, and somehow, I'm with the same person again, and we all kind of have this template for what feels normal and normal doesn't always mean healthy. So, we have this template of, oh, this type of sense of humor feels normal, or the way this person is engaging with me, something feels normal about it and because of that, we can we quickly know what to do.  

So, remember I was talking about when we're young were quickly, figuring out how do I get along with these caregivers so they take care of me and they don't hurt me? So, what happens is you meet people who are like your caregivers, and you are a magician with them. You're so skilled. You're like, so I know exactly what to do with you. I know how to laugh at your jokes. And I know how to play into you. Or I know how to like, keep myself a little distant because I know that's what draws you to me. And so, you know exactly what to do with them. You don't know what to do with the others. They're not, they're not the same template. You can't follow the same pattern and so it's easy– quote, "easy." And I just mean that by like feelings wise, to feel connected to that person because it's the same dance you've already been dancing, even if it's a ridiculous dance, so you have these people and then what happens is in the very start, you are kind of like wired to minimize anything about that person that sucks and isn't good for you. And you magnify the, the wonder of them you say, oh my God, they're funny. They're smart. They're interesting, all of that. And that's great. You should, that's the beautiful part of the start of a relationship.  

Then over time everyone, I have never met a person in a relationship that hasn't had this happen. You start to be like, oh no, is this who I want to be with? And you might think that in a big way or a little way, but you start to say you're kind of disappointing me in some ways that I've been trying to avoid. They, when I try to talk about my feelings, they don't talk about feelings, when I try to compromise and work together, they're not working together with me. They are a workaholic, and I really don't want to be with a workaholic again, I can never get them to connect, and so you'll start to find these things play out, and you want this other person– and we go for it because we want this other person to be the same but be different. And what I mean by that is we want them to have the same characteristics but to love us so flipping much that they overcome those characteristics, to finally love us in the way that our caregivers couldn’t.  

And so, we keep saying change, change, why aren't you like this? And we blame them, and we are mad at them, and we stick around too long or not too long. We're in the right relationship, but we expect way too much of them. And the second we can say, oh, I see that this is like my template coming out wanting to be comfortable with them while also expecting them to heal me. What we can do instead is just be straightforward about that. Say you really disappoint me and like, I know that's not always all on you. I want to share with you that when I was growing up, I could never connect with my mom. I could never connect with my dad. And when I tried to do it, what would happen is XY and Z, and so when I talk to you about my feelings and you tell me it's all okay or whatever, I feel the same way, even though I know you're not the same person. Can we talk about like what we could do differently here? So you can start to actually explore that together instead of making these like very decisive decisions around how terrible they are or aren’t for you. And then you can actually see whether or not they can be the right partner. 

Margaret: I appreciate what you just said. It's like the desire for them to heal you, which feels different than like healing in the relationship like that– these– that the partnership that you that feels so familiar, that maybe is not working so well, actually can still be like a healing opportunity for you. But that feels– there's a difference between this person is going to heal these childhood wounds versus I can heal within this relationship. Is that– am I hearing that differentiation? 

Elizabeth: And I'm glad you brought that up because I don't want anybody walking away from this thinking, "Oh, I thought relationships were healing but now, Liz is saying that they can't heal us," because relationships are the most, like, probably the most healing thing. If you have felt unsafe in your relationships your entire life, and then you get in a relationship with someone, and they consistently give you safety again, and again, and again, your nervous system is going to heal, because it's going to start to heal because it's like, oh my gosh, like, getting this consistent, reliable response again, and again, and again. And so, you can heal in relationship relationally, so that means that you're bouncing off of each other in a way that is safe, that is responsive. That is all of these things that you need. And so, every time that that part of you comes up, that's like I know what's going to happen. They're going to reject me. They're going to hurt me. They're going to abandon me. And it doesn't happen. It's like rewiring that track that your brain has gone down. So, we heal in relationships, and we can't expect the other person to change for us just so that we can feel better. We have to actually find a way to negotiate with another person so that we feel safe with them. Not so that they just become, you know, this person that just exists in order to be for us all of the time. And I think that's an important differentiator. 

Margaret: Mhm. Kind of reminds me of something you talked about about the importance of being both like self-aware, but aware of the other like, that, that the importance of that, you know, it could be so easy for us to either be like, so in ourselves or so, you know, focused on the other. But kind of being able to hold both of those. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah, we have to be able to be self-aware and other-aware, which means that and really what that is. It's called differentiation. So, it's the ability to say I can be connected with you because I see you, I empathize with you. I'm curious about you, I care about you, and I can be connected with myself, because I know what I need, what I want, who I am, what my opinion is, all of those types of things. When you can hold both of those, you have awareness of yourself, awareness of the other person. You create a really nice relationship with each other. What happens though, when people, when they have a relationship that starts to disintegrate, it becomes one or the other. One person either becomes like, very other-aware. So, it's like I have no awareness of myself anymore. I don't know what my boundaries are. I don't know how I feel. I don't know what I want, and I just am catering to you, don't want to lose you, I don't want you to be mad at me, all of those types of things. And so, you get them, but you don't get yourself, or as a relationship falls apart, as things get more conflict-ridden, all of that, people become very like self-focused and they don't see the other person anymore, and there's blame and there's this need to win. And there's a need for me to get everything I want met, but no compromise. And so, we want to work on trying to balance those things. 

Margaret: Yeah, you mentioned the word boundaries and you know, I'm just like really hearing that differentiation of course boundaries feels very sort of everywhere in kind of pop culture about the importance of them. And I wonder if there's anything that you would say. Like the thing you would most want to say or your wisdom about helping people set boundaries in this in this way. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, I think something really important to remember that can get lost in Instagram posts and all of that is that boundaries are actually about you. They're not even necessarily about all the things you're saying to the other person or the things you're getting the other person to do. They’re about you recognizing what is and isn't okay with you and knowing what you're going to do for yourself if the line is crossed.  

Now, with that being said, our boundaries are a little easier when people want to work with us on them. So, we do need to express them to people. People can't just know what they are. And if I say something to my husband, like, hey, you know, when you've got a problem with me, it's totally fine for you to be upset, but I'm not going to talk to you if that's the way you're speaking right now. Like when you have a raised voice, I can't and my husband doesn't actually raise his voice, but I'm just going to use this as an example. When you have a raised voice in that way I just am not going to go there. That's me expressing this limit. This boundary I have with my partner and if my partner is flooded and keeps having a loud voice or something like that, I actually can't force that to change. And what I need to then do is say well, what do I do for myself in this moment with my boundary? Otherwise, it's not a boundary. It's just you saying something and then…so it might be something like all right, honey, I told you I get that you're upset. It's really dysregulating for me to hear this loud noise. I am going to go for a drive. I'm going to leave the conversation. I'm not going to respond to any more texts.  

So, boundaries are about you. And what are you going to do in order to protect yourself? You know another good boundary that couples have is like we're not going to argue over text messages. It's just my boundary, you bring up something important, I'm going to say to you honey, we'll talk about it later. Let's chat at 9PM, And if that other person doesn't go with that and they keep talking. Yes, they're violating your boundary and you're going to violate your own if then you keep saying, I already told you, I'm not going to do this and there's that. So, being able to be like I already said it, I'll put my phone down, I'll see them at 9PM. So, I think that's, that's an important thing to remember. Yeah. 

Margaret: No, that's, I love that, that sense of like, right, the boundaries are about us versus like the sense of, like, oh, I'm putting something out there about you. Of course, it's going to have an impact on the other. But like it originates for ourselves. Yeah, and you mentioned I love the sort of flooding, and I was thinking about the hot conversations that you talk about and the potential for people to be flooded and like what, you know, can we talk about that? Like what's happening? What do we do about that? Because that certainly feels like you know, I've certainly noticed it that within my own relationship and every relationship I know of people getting just flooded and would love to, yeah. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, I get flooded a lot. And so, this is something that we do not talk about enough, I think, and once you hear it, it's like, oh my gosh, that's what happened. That's why I got out of control in that argument and couldn't speak or didn't say things I wanted to say or said things I didn't mean to say. There's two types of conflicts that people have. One type is a type of conflict where we can access what I call relational skills. So that would be like if you and I were having a disagreement right now. And while we're having that disagreement, even if it got a little spicy, I would still be able to be like, I don't know, that's a good point or I'm going to stop myself, let me hear you out, let's try again. So, I'm able to repair, I’m able to be curious. I'm able to problem-solve, I can take deep breaths. I recognize I'm getting upset. I accept humor, you know, a huge sign that you've gone, quote, offline is that nothing's funny to you anymore. You can accept affection. Like if you and I were in a disagreement and I said, and we were friends, really good friends. And I said, can I just give you a hug, like, really sorry about what just happened? That happens in that type of disagreement, those types of disagreements, they’re fine. We disagree. And they might be hard, but we don't damage the relationship.  

Now. There's another type of disagreement we have that feels threatening in some way and I'm not talking about like deadly force threat, I'm talking about relational threat, where it's like this person doesn't care what I have to say. We're never going to solve this problem. We've talked about it a thousand times. They don't love me. They're not listening. I'm frustrated. This is a huge value for me, and I'm freaked out that they don't get it and then something bad's going to happen. When that happens, we get what's called flooded. And what that means is that your body is actually responding as if you are under any other type of threat, it senses danger, and it starts pumping all of these hormones into your bloodstream. And what that does is it starts to turn off different parts of your brain. The parts of your brain that were developed to have relationships. And the reason it does that is because it wants you to become completely self-focused. So, you brought up other-focused and self-focused before. You're under threat. The only thing you want to think about in that moment is I need to run away from this lion, I need to aggress at this lion, or I'm so freaked out nothing's going to come out, just kind of [pauses briefly] that is a physical response. That is not you making a conscious decision to start screaming. That is not you making a conscious decision to freeze up. That is not you making a conscious decision to like say, I'm going to stomp out of this room right now and slam the door. It's not you making a conscious decision to say, I hate you. You know, I don't want to be in a relationship with you anymore. These are things that start to come out of your mouth. Your body is just really threatened.  

And so, what's really important in those moments is to remember that you can't access relational things that you've learned about. So, you are flooded, and you have a partner saying, why won't you just listen to me? Talk to me. They're not going to listen to you. You're not gonna be able to listen because that isn't there right now. And so, the best thing you can do is what I call the HARD conversations model. So, an easy way to remember it, is this conversation's really hard. Hard stands for H, for halt, which means I've got to stop because I physically am not at the capacity, or if my partner's flooded, they physically cannot speak to me right now in a way that's going to be helpful. So, we have to stop, and we know it takes at least 20 minutes for that stuff to be flushed out of the bloodstream. 20 minutes away from the threat though, so it can't be I'm going to go to my room and I'm going to keep texting you about how much of a jackass you are. [both laugh] Those 20 minutes will not fix the problem.  

So, then the second thing you need to do is you need to Attend and quickly attend to the other person, which might be something like, and I always tell people narrate your inner world. So "I am so angry right now that I'm literally about to slam this door, so, I am walking out of the room." And then you attend to them by saying "I love you, I'll come back, but I've got to stomp out of here." So, say the inside. Say what's happening. "I'm frozen. There's, I can't say anything right now and I need us to stop talking. Go away. We'll talk about it later." You know, whatever it is. To Halt, but Attend to the other person so that you're not damaging their attachment. The other thing you need to attend to is you. So, I'm going to take 20 minutes. I'm going to take an hour to cool off my nervous system and breathe, going to take a shower and go for a walk. Do something creative like draw, right? Not focused on the relationship.  

And then R stands for Repair. Once I am back in my body, once I feel like I can access affection again, once I feel like I can access some curiosity, humor even. That's my favorite. I love to make fun of them after something like that. And then I'll go back and we need, I need to offer repair. And repair is something that I talk about in the book, but you and your partner can kind of figure out what you both like. My husband knows I love humor. So, when we repair, it's like he comes to me, says, something that's like, very funny. He actually, I, it's funny. He's, he makes fun of me, and it works, but it doesn't work if I make fun of him. He likes affection. So, can I give you a hug? I'm sorry about what happened. Very quick. Does it need to be long?  

And then the final thing is the D, which is Debrief. So, you don't want to skip that one. A lot of people what they'll do is they'll repair and say, okay, so we were arguing about what we're going to do with your mother over the holidays. Let's talk about it again, and then the same thing happens. So instead, I want you to talk about how you were talking, not the thing. What do you think just happened 30 minutes ago? 

Margaret: Hmm. 

Elizabeth: Why did it go there, and being able to say, you know, I noticed that when I came downstairs and you were on the phone with your mom, I don't know what happened, but I immediately felt really upset and then your partner being able to say yeah, I saw that on your face. So, when I saw it on your face, I just felt so defensive, and I didn't want to talk to you. I felt like you were going to criticize me whatever. And so, I think what happened there was X, Y, and Z. How can we plan to make that different next time? And be able to talk to each other about some Rules of Engagement, you know, like what are we going to do to talk about your mom in a different way, you know, every time we talk about it, it's really hard. So, should we like if we need to talk about it, do you want us to send a text first? Do you want me to bring it up at a time on like Sunday when we're not as stressed? What would really help us? So you're making a plan for the future. 

Margaret: So that really sounds like the debrief is really process-focused, rather than content-focused. That that, that that's kind of where the juice is in that debrief. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. So, we therapists talk about process over content. [Margaret: Yeah.] Yes, and something that we notice in the therapy room is how much people get stuck in the content, right? [Margaret: Yes.] Whether it's an individual or a couple, and what we want to do is move out of that and move into, you know, if you were on the mountain top looking down at what happened, what would you say you saw? And talk about that instead. I would say that I saw myself get really angry and I saw myself yell and, you know, I saw these two people who weren't able to connect with each other. So trying to move out of what you were talking about into how you were talking, that process. 

Margaret: Mhm. I’m curious around the kind of the coming back together, as well. As you mentioned sort of the different ways in which you and your husband, you know, are able to repair. And I've certainly seen, you know, bids for repair and rejections of repair and like that in itself can lead to a whole other, you know, stuff. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. Well, if somebody's already really raw, like if they've come back from their nervous system just being completely hijacked and they try to make a repair and the other person rejects it and they regret, they regret making the repair in that moment. Another person rejects it. What happens is it's so much easier for them to go right back into being flooded, going to go right back there. Something I really encourage even when it's hard is if your partner tries to repair, even if it's not in the way you love, you know, some people really hate humor and I get that. So, your partner comes back, and they make like, a little joke about the interaction and some way you're maybe still a little bit hurt. Really try though to see that was an attempt to bring us down. Even though it didn't. That was an attempt to reconnect. How can I accept that? In some way and it might be "honey, I know what you're trying to do there, humor is not working for me," but that's still, that's not rejecting that bid in that moment. You know rejecting it sounds like "nothing is funny, why are you making a joke?" 

Margaret: Yeah. 

Elizabeth: Responding to the bid can still have a boundary. You don't need to say "ha ha ha, that was so funny." Even though you don't think it, you can say “I don't like that one right now. I know what you're trying to do, but I don't like that one. Can you just give me a hug instead?” Or, you know, if somebody offers you affection in your life, and I'm not there, the rejection would be "why do you think you can hug me right now?" Yeah, the turning towards and yet still holding space for yourself might sound like "I'm not ready for a hug. What I would like, what would be helpful to me is, if, you know, you just let me know like what you're sorry for right now, that's really important to me." And so you want to be really cautious about rejecting bids, people try many different ways to repair and unfortunately, we usually do it differently that our partner, because we are different people. You gotta be able to recognize that. 

Margaret: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's interesting what's coming up for me, you know, I was thinking about, you know, we spent a lot of time, you know, talking about conflict, but one of the things I also wanted to touch on is sort of the, the other thing, the sort of building. Those attending to things and we're saying it was interesting when, you know, when I got your book, I got it in this amazing care package with coffeegrounds and, you know, beignet mix from New Orleans, you know, Cafe Du Monde. And like I immediately get a beautiful note from you and why it was meaningful and I was immediately transported to like my own memories of New Orleans and just felt like this like expansiveness and I was like, ah, like this feels like water in the desert, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that like yearning for those sort of expansive experiences within our relationships like so often the contact is like, oh, especially in these extraordinary times, like it's hard, you know, we're trying to be a parent and we're in COVID, you know, all of those things, and kind of these other things around with ritual, and even use the word transcendence. And I was like, oh, you know, like tell me more. So, I would love to just hear a little bit about… 

Elizabeth: Yeah. So, obviously, we're in relationships for a reason other than navigating conflict, [laughs] even though that's a huge piece of being in them, for better or for worse. And so, we're in relationships because ultimately, they are wonderful, and they bring so much meaning to our lives and they bring a sense of belonging. They bring a sense of, I think you just said transcendence, like where, it's…there's these moments of awe where you get to share with other people. Moments of awe by yourself, amazing. How cool is it when you're with your best friend, or you're with your child, or you're with your partner, and you're like, looking at art together and you're like, oh my gosh, that's so beautiful. Do you see it too? And you're both thinking that, or you have a baby together and you're like holding this baby and thinking how you know, how like in awe you are and how spiritually connected you are to the world. We have meaning in our purpose together, like whether that purpose is we just want to create stability for each other, whether that purpose is we are really passionate about something, we love the environment and together we are creating a non-profit for it, whether that purpose is raising children, like there's so much possibility, meaning with other people. Other people get to hold our story for us. Other people are kind of what tells us that we exist, right? Like being with you shows me that I'm real, that I'm here. And so, you know, figuring out how to navigate the difficulties is because ultimately there's so much beauty and there's so much that can come out of strong relationships. 

Margaret: Any tips on attending to that, you know, because of course kind of in the daily grind those I feel like are the things that kind of can get, you know, like I don't have time for that or any sort of… 

Elizabeth: So, one thing is to think about what are your rituals in your relationship? And I'm not talking about just big rituals. So, we have really big ones, you know, the way that my husband and I celebrate Christmas, the way that we deal with birthdays, anniversaries, all of that. You also have daily things that you often don't think about so much, you might kiss each other every single morning, and you don't even notice that you do that because it's just a thing. But really paying attention to those rituals and checking in with each other frequently. Like how do you think we're doing with maintaining this stuff? I noticed that we used to drink coffee every single morning together, and ever since the start of the pandemic we haven't done that anymore and I miss that. So, what could we do now? Should we go back to it or have our lives changed so much that we need to make space somewhere else for connection, but continually checking in about how you're connecting. You know, are we making time, what things have kind of gone out the window that we used to have? Do we want to replace them? Do we want to recreate them?  

The other thing is paying attention to different areas of intimacy. And so, are you tending to all of the different areas of intimacy with each other, you know, how's physical intimacy going. Do you feel like you're being touched enough? I’m not talking about sex. I’m talking about touch and you and your partner might have different needs around that. Do you feel like you're having sex enough? So, with sexual intimacy. How's our emotional intimacy? Do you know my inner world? Do you understand how I feel? Do you respond? Do I know yours? How are things going with us in terms of experiences. So experiential intimacy, do we go on dates? Are we playing together? Are we making time for fun? Do we build forts in the living room anymore? You know, what happened to those beginning days. And so, really checking in on, how are we doing with intimacy in like all of these areas? And what do we want to do to really nurture it to step into it to recognize when we haven't had time and to dedicate time to it. 

Margaret: Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And I guess I wonder if, you know, kind of as we come to a close, any last things that I, you know, that you want to share anything, you know, that's on your mind. Like to leave us with before we before we end today. 

Elizabeth: I think you asked such great questions. So I don't think that I have a ton more to share other than just to remind you all that you are all deserving of relationships that feel good, and you're all deserving no matter where you are at in life of people who treat you well and people who care about you and the people who are in relationship with, you are also deserving of people you know, experiencing love and being treated well and all of that. And so, what I want to leave you with is can you go into the world thinking relationally and thinking, you know, what do I need? But also, what other people need. 

Margaret: Beautiful. Thank you.  

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
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