CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

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[Cheerful theme music begins]

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

When a film touches us, makes us laugh, and has that feel-good spirit, we want more of it. We want a sequel! In this episode, psychotherapist and CIIS Assistant Professor in the Integral Counseling Psychology program Emily Marinelli is joined by therapist and activist DDS Dobson-Smith for a conversation exploring the psychology of movie sequels from the 1980s and 1990s. 

Sharing personal stories and insights from their latest book Comfort Sequels, Emily dives deep into the psychology behind what makes certain movie sequels memorable, safe, predictable, and comforting. These sequels are more of the universe we love—exploring something new while maintaining something familiar. Emily interprets characters, story arcs, and major themes while sharing fun and random behind-the-scenes facts about sequels including Grease 2, Gremlins 2, My Girl 2, Ghostbusters II, Batman Returns, and more. 

This episode was recorded during an in-person and live streamed event at California Institute of Integral Studies on August 21st, 2024. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

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Emily Marinelli: Okay. Hi everyone. welcome. Hi, it's so good to see you. Did everyone who's here physically get a slap bracelet when you came in? Just wanted to make sure. Okay. Those of you at home who don't have slap bracelets, I'm really sorry but I encourage you to get one for yourself because they just bring joy and nostalgia which are a lot of topics that we're going to talk about today. I'm going to start by asking all of you, just for you to think about what is something that is comforting for you from when you were younger, as a kid. So, for me it's pop culture, so a TV show, music, a movie, something that brought you comfort, joy, you could count on. Anything popping into mind? Something? Someone who's here want to holler it out? Brave soul? Books. Great. Anyone in particular? Romance novels. I love it. Daniel Steele? Daniel Steele. Steals our hearts every time. Love it. Anyone else? Falkor. Never ending story. Falkor, absolutely. Not to upsell merch but we do have both stickers and temporary tattoos of Falkor that my friend Morgan drew. Cute. Love it. Anyone else? One more nostalgic moment? You Can't Do That On Television where you could get slimed and Alanis Morissette was there. Fantastic. So thinking about and conjuring and bringing in today like what brought you comfort when you were little and that's what this book is about, comfort sequels for me. So, I'm going to, look at me just taking over DDS. We're here. We're queer, get used to it. I'm going to read a little bit of the introduction of the book because it will show you, first of all, how cute is this cover? Can you even deal with how cute this is? So the book will take you into, I think, and bring you into the immersion that was for me what these sequels provided and continue to provide, especially Grease 2, which obviously I have a poster up front and center. Never leave home without it. Introduction, Back to School Again. I promise this isn't long. “Sweetie, are you sure you want to watch it again? My single mom, working 12 hour days to make ends meet, cannot fathom my desire to view Grease 2 yet again. As soon as she picks me up from school, I beg her to put it on. Sixth grade is not nearly as exciting as the return of the T-Birds and the Pink Ladies. I wait patiently all day at Carver Middle School in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in the hopes of returning in the evening to the school of my dreams, Rydell High. Yes, mama, I need to watch it one more time. I'm learning the Back to School Again dance number and I have to get all the moves right. And the tiny living room that doubled as a dining room in the house we are renting couldn't contain my Pink Ladies spirit. Four small dining chairs surround a Formica table, adjacent to a brown dilapidated couch right out of Rosanne. The largest piece in the room is the entertainment center, a thrift store find which takes up an entire wall. This is where I spend most of my time. My mom, still dressed in Kmart high heels and a shoulder padded navy suit with bejeweled buttons down the front, laughs and slides the tape into the gray and black Panasonic VHS player. My grubby fingers, sticky with my after school snack of easy cheese and Ritz crackers. Delicious. Turn the dials on the TV to find the channel that will allow the movie to play. Remember when you had to do that. The VHS FBI warning comes into focus. Large scary blue letters hover above the Department of Justice seal. I show off by closing my eyes and reciting it word for word from memory, federal law provides severe civil and criminal penalties for the unauthorized reproduction distribution and exhibition. Great job honey. That's impressive. My mom praises my ability to remember the disclaimer and leaves to start dinner before going back to grading papers. I set up the dining chairs in a line to denote different parts of the Grease 2 opening credit spectacular. Two chairs create the semblance of a pink Studebaker I can sit a top like Sharon - Maureen Teefe - during the pink ladies pledge. Chair number three is for my T bird motorcycle entrance segment. While not critical to the choreography, the fourth chair has no real purpose, except that it allows me to jump from a height for dramatic effect in the middle of the room. The most challenging part of the almost seven minute Back to School Again opening number is the various micro dialogue character introductions. For these I have to be creative. While holding a geography textbook I poke my head through a gap window in the entertainment center, creating a makeshift school bus, just like Frenchy - Didi Conn. Tiny pompoms from my skipper doll – who’s the younger sister to Barbie. Remember her? – work great for my impressions of the twin cheerleaders, and I use my mom’s Aquanets to spray my hair just like Miss Mason – Connie Steven – does to her bouffant hairdo. The whole scene would not be complete, unless I'm chewing gum in a too cool for school way. The winter fresh hangs on my mouth's edge, and it drips down to my chin. I smack it back quickly while pretending not to notice or care how others perceive me. Back to School Again explodes onto the screen with fantastical colors and synchronized dancing.The song tells the relatable story of a summer vacation ending too soon and the bummer of starting fall classes. The opening song lyrics begin, spending my vacation in the summer sun. You can sing if you know it. Getting lots of action, having lots of fun. Scoring like a bandit till the bubble burst. Suddenly it got to be September 1st. September sneaks up out of nowhere and Rydell students don't want to go back. The Board of Education took away my parole. The lyrics are not completely appropriate for kids. But hey, I'm 12 after all, and I've heard much worse. I do the twist, the swim, and the pony with the students of Rydell while working hard to not accidentally swallow my gum on a grapevine turn. My sticky and now sweaty fingers fumble with the VCR buttons to get the choreography just right. Pause, rewind, pause, rewind, pause, fast forward. I can feel my mom's gentle tolerance from the kitchen as she tells me, honey, let's start putting your things away and set the table for dinner. Puffing and puffing from the 60s dance move repetitions, I yell out, but mom, I really need to get this ending down. Here it goes. I weave in and out between the chairs, theatrically. Run in place as the music holds. Whoa, whoa, I gotta go back to school and execute a shoulder somersault right as the song blasts. Again, bam. Studebaker chairs one and two crash to the ground. The winter fresh in a perfect ball propels from my mouth onto the TV screen just as my mom comes in holding our casserole dinners. Nailed it. Just in time for tuna.” That's the beginning. So you see right away how important Grease 2 is and was for me in my life and how it provided comfort and how I wanted to be involved in it. So I hope that gives you a taste of what this book is about. 

DDS Dobson-Smith: I feel like what we could do is just have a conversation about Grease 2 because of our shared appreciation of it. So this is now the Grease 2 talk. I hope you all enjoy. 

Em: That's fine with me. 

DDS: And before we get going, I want to say a couple of things. First, I just love you. 

Em: I love you, too. 

DDS: And thank you for asking me to be here. I don't know about you, but when Em Maranelli calls and asks a question, they don't need to finish the question before you say yes. And I was like, yes, what is the request? And then when it was to come and talk with you and with your fans about this, then it was a double yes. And it's a real full circle moment for me because I have such a lot of gratitude in my heart for you because many, many years ago when I was a student in your class, we were doing an independent study together. The product of that class was a manuscript for my first book. So this feels like such a full circle moment for you and I wouldn't be here without you. And some of those lovely words that Pele said about me before we started wouldn't have been possible to be said without you. You know, I am not me without you. So thank you for having me here. I mean that from all of my heart. 

Em: Thank you. 

DDS: Yeah, well, we've prepared a bunch of questions that those of you that have been in class with me know that we may not get to them. But I guess I guess where I want to start in this conversation about Grease 2 is I mean truly how did you choose which sequels to put into this book? Because quite frankly, where's Gremlins 2? 

Em: I know, it's such a big question. Gremlins 2: The New Batch. Can I see a show of hands how many folks have seen Gremlins 2: The New Batch? And you have to say The New Batch. Any sequel that has then like a subtitle, you have to say the whole thing. So just a few of you. So Gremlins 2: The New Batch is actually one of the greatest sequels of all time because of its ability to self-mock. And it doesn't take itself seriously and it breaks the fourth wall and Hulk Hogan is in it. And it's a bunch of– Key and Peele do an incredible sketch where they have, has anyone seen the Key and Peele sketch? It's golden. What are you doing? Go watch that right now. No, you can stay here. But you have to see it because it really does, it's like, there's a bat Gremlin and there's an electricity Gremlin. It's like what's happening here with all the Gremlins? The Gremlins 2 chapter was the first chapter that I wrote because I love it so much. And then as I kept writing the book, I realized that I wasn't writing a book about pop culture critique and psychology. I was also writing a memoir. And so the book took a different turn that I followed. And I'm really glad that I followed it. And then when the book was pretty much done, I went back to the Gremlins 2 chapter and it didn't fit anymore. And I tried to make it fit, but it's like that thing that happens in art where it's like you're trying too hard and it's not working and then you just have to kind of leave it and come back. And I feel like I might come back to it. Maybe in Comfort Sequels 2, the sequel to the sequel book. I'm just saying, I don't know. We'll see. 

DDS: Newsflash. 

Em: But it is a noticeably left out sequel, but it's a wonderful, wonderful sequel. 

DDS: So this memoir – I agree it is a wonderful sequel. I particularly like the gremlin with the lipstick on. 

Em: Gremlina. 

DDS: I see so much of me in her. 

Em: Yes, Gremlina. Yeah, my tattoo artist has her drawn up. I'm going to get her tattooed because you can't, I mean, it's Gremlina. She's wonderful. 

DDS: So I'm already going to ask a question that's not on the question list. 

Em: Perfect. I want that. Yes. 

DDS: Okay. So it became a memoir. What was that experience like for you? First of all, realizing that it's a memoir and then allowing it to be a memoir. 

Em: That's such a great question. I resisted it because I pitched it to my publisher as not a memoir. So I thought, oh, I can trickle memoir pieces in, but I can't really make it a memoir. And then I was attending these nonfiction workshops and every time I would bring in a memoir aspect, they were like that, more of that. And my creative writing partner, who's also here, shout out, Bowie, also was like, girl, lean into that. That's what's so good. And so when I wrote Batman Returns chapter, which Batman Returns is fabulous, I started off writing about when I dressed up as Catwoman in a Walmart all-in-one bag Catwoman costume that you could get and doing a trampoline routine in honor of Michelle Pfeiffer that was to the song Black Cat, which is not related to Batman Returns, but had to be that particular song. 

DDS: Janet Jackson, Black Cat?

Em: Janet Jackson. Janet Jackson. Such a good song. 1, 2, she counts it in. And I was, so I wrote all of that and I was like, oh, should I keep all this in because I'm doing this great analysis about sort of trauma and complex PTSD related to Penguin and Catwoman. And then there's me on the trampoline. And then I realized, oh, they're all freaks, beautiful freaks. And so am I. So it all fits, right? We're all freaks born of CPTSD. And that works. So what if I could just allow that to keep going and keep being? And then I did. And then I allowed that for all of the chapters. And what emerged was the stories that needed to be told in each sequel. 

DDS: Yeah. I was fortunate enough to be given a press release from you. And I know you. And I was reading in equal measure with joy and delight and just admiration for your bravery. Because it takes a lot to put, I mean, it takes a lot to even tell the story to yourself, let alone to share the story with other people. So it's a gift that you're giving us. Yeah, I feel like let's come back to restorying because I want to get a bit deeper on the kind of narrative restorying. I think the most important question is that is going to get answered this evening is what would you say to somebody who says Grease is better than Grease 2? See? Controversial. 

Em: It is. It is. And I'm for controversy. What I would say is, Grease is wonderful. It's iconic. It's John Travolta. It's Olivia Newton John. It's iconic. It’s great. But it's not Grease 2. Grease 2 is not just a gender– show of hands in this room, who has seen Grease 2? Excellent. Very good. So you feel me on this. It's not just a gender reversal story, but it is a female empowerment story. Michelle Pfeiffer kisses who she wants when she wants. 

DDS: So queer. 

Em: It's so queer. It's so great. And I had the opportunity to interview three of the T-birds from Grease 2. And one of them, Leaf Green, who plays Davy Jaworski, he's the little one, is openly queer and was during filming and just talked about the queerness of the character and the unapologetic queerness of it. And he doesn't end up with, he sort of ends up with Dolores at the end, but not really. And you see him, they all jump off of a trampoline during the end credits in the freeze frame. I always want that. Can that happen in every single movie? But everyone's jumping off as couples in the freeze frame and Davy is just by himself. And I love it because, right, he's jumping off into the wild unknown. I asked him, I said, where do you think that, you know, your character and Dolores would be now? What happened to them? And he said, well, I would have gone off to the Stonewall Riots and just been a part of queer liberation. And I'm like, I love that. What about Dolores? He was like, she would be too because she would also be openly queer because she has a lot of gender bending in her character as well. So I just love that. I mean, I'm going into the sort of queerness of it. But there's a lot of subversive elements to Grease 2 that aren't in Grease. And it's not just a gender reversal story. Also, the T-Birds in Grease 2 are like complete doofuses. And like the pink ladies just are in charge. They're fierce. They're powerful. They're embodied. They're all about it. And there's a lot of like wonderfully bad songs. And a lot of them have to do with like sexy topics, reproduction, score tonight, do it for our country. Those are sexy, sexy songs and very corny and very cheesy and unapologetic. And I love it. And when I saw it on TV, so it came out the year I was born, 1982. I know it was a flop.

It did not do very well. Sequels often don't do very well in general. But it came out in 1982. And it was a flop because it opened on the same day -  I learned this from Maxwell Caulfield - It opened on the same day as ET. Right. There's no chance. How can you compete with that? So people didn't go to see it. The other problem that happened was it opened during the summer. And as you've just heard me read, the whole opening segment is about them going back to school again. Well, in the height of the summer, people don't want to watch movies about going back to school. They want to go back into summer. So it's like a disaster. All of these things are, you know, circumstances under which it did not do well. But it developed a cult following that started around the time when I saw it, which was when it was playing a lot on TV. It was like a syndication type of a thing. And I remember I was in Atlanta with my family. I have got family in the South. I was in Atlanta. And they were about to go to dinner. And I was flipping through channels. And I saw this very sad looking beautiful man sitting in a cafeteria with like looked like plastic food on his plate. And he was singing a song called “Charade.” And it was, he was very sad. And he was talking about, you know, behind my charade, you can't see or feel the real me. And I, as this young queer kid with like shoulder pads, what was I wearing? Shoulder pads with jeweled buttons. I was basically mimicking my mom, I guess. I don't know how that all that happened with my outfit. I had like my hair spritzed and like my bangs and it was a whole look. And I was like, oh, right. The real me who is the real me. I was identifying with his loneliness, with his otherness, with what he was singing about. And I didn't know what it was. And I remember going into my uncle's, you know, lazy boy recliner and trying to find the TV guide flipping through and then and then realizing, oh, this is Grease 2. I didn't know what it was. And I was then I had to then I missed dinner because I stayed and watched the movie. And then I had my mom drive me to the nearest rental store so I could get it and rent it and watch it over and over and over again. And it became such a comfort to me. And it was such a comfort that I recorded it on a little cassette tape, just the audio. Did anyone ever do this? Did you ever do this? And then you like have it in your Walkman so I could literally take it with me and listen to it like at school or, you know, just sneak it in wherever you needed to have a little light Grease 2? pick me up. And then I could just have it literally with me all the time. And it was that sort of like a teddy bear, right, like a blanket, like a pacifier, a transitional object, an object that transitions you from the thing you love and that provides comfort to the outside world. And so it was my teddy bear. What about you? How what's your experience with Grease 2? How did it come into your life? 

DDS: Well, I would agree with you that Grease 2 is the better of the two movies. 

Em: That's correct. 

DDS: That was on condition of me being here. I had to say that. And I also genuinely believe that to be true. I think I think for me, I saw it when it later on as well. Like I had fully come out, whatever that means, into myself by the time I saw it. Grease 1 was actually the moment when I got the tingle down where you get the tingles. And I was like, oh, I don't think I'm like all of the other people that like the people that they like. And so that was my, Grease was my awakening. Grease 2 was my coming home. And I think it was I think it was the girl for all seasons that that I I'm an enneagram three, for those of you that know what that means, it means I like I like to be a bit of a chameleon. I'm like, who do you need me to be right now? And the girl for all seasons is exactly that. And I was like, I wonder who I want to be a girl for someone's all seasons. And so it was a really important film to me. And I disagree with you that there's no bad songs in Grease 2 I don't know why you say there's some bad songs in Grease 2. I feel a little bit offended.

Em: Well, it's like they're all terribly wonderful. That's what I mean. Terribly wonderful. 

DDS: Oh, right. I’m with you. I'm back on board. I’m back in the room.

Em: We're back in the room. I think every sequel that I cover in this book, aside from maybe Karate Kid 2, which is probably just a great film, but all the rest of them are terribly wonderful. They're terribly wonderful. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2, The Secret of The, The Secret of the Ooze, you have to say that when you say it, is pretty, pretty bad. But it's wonderful. You know, it's wonderful. Mannequin 2, On the Move, you have to say On the Move, is wonderful. And it's really bad. 

DDS: I think I also I also just want to just acknowledging our audience. I just want you to know that a cassette is– a cassette is something that happened. It's like a hard copy of an MP3. And a Walkman is a device that you put that in and you could carry it around with you, which is why it was called a Walkman, because patriarchy. And then you put headphones on with the things that came before earpods. That's what Em was talking about, just in case anyone got lost. I'm also really curious, Em, because they always say never meet your heroes. And this book is jam packed full of interviews and what nobody in this room knows that in the in the audible version of Em's book, I get to play an interview character. But this this book is littered with interviews from from, you know, stars from the movies and you got to meet them, whether it either in person or online. And I wonder what that process was like for you and how that altered your relationship to the movies. 

Em: That's such a great question. Well, as I said, I realized that I wanted to do all the things in this book. And those of you who know me know that I really love to do all the things. And so I thought, OK, it is a book with a psychological analysis component. It is a pop culture critique book. It is a memoir. But also, I want to talk to these people who I love so much and who I grew up with. They were like surrogate caregivers to me in a way because of the movies that they were in. And so I've never done celeb interviews before. I didn't know what I was doing. And what I did was I, with the help of a friend who gave me some information about how to find people, I just wrote to them. I just wrote to them and I said, Hi, this is me. I'm doing this thing. What do you think? And people responded. And I couldn't believe like here I am 40 years old and I'm sitting in an RV and my BFFs like driveway and I'm talking to Maxwell Caulfield on the telephone. 

DDS: Cool Rider.

Em: Cool Rider. Also in Empire Records, he plays Rex Manning. Happy Rex Manning Day, anyone? And I thought and I had this moment of like looking down on myself from above and going, I can't believe this is happening to me. And what would little Em think about this moment that little Em would get to actually have a conversation with the cool rider and ask him questions and get to be even more immersed in a different way into this world. And the same thing happened with me with Stu Pankin. Stu Pankin is in Mannequin 2 On the Move. And he is the voice of the dad dinosaur in that TV show Dinosaurs. Did y'all ever see that? Were they literally wearing dinosaur outfits? Full dinosaur outfits? Anyway, and I talked to him. I can't believe they did that. He's an incredible actor and character actor and you would recognize him if you don't know who he is. But I was talking to him and I just had this connective moment where I thought, oh, I feel like you're like my grandfather. Like it was he was so loving and so caring and so thoughtful in his answers. And he really just really wanted to tell me stories. And one of the things that was so cool is so he plays the department store manager in Mannequin 2 On the Move. And he walks around. Anyone seen Mannequin 2 On the Move? OK, a couple of folks. What are you doing after this? You have assignments, including watching Mannequin 2 On the Move. But he walks around with his kind of like department store minions and he says these repeating lines like make a showplace of the workplace. And then they repeat it. Make a showplace of the workplace and deplore neglect, demand respect. And then they repeat it. And my cousins and I, because we love Mannequin 2 On the Move, would go around and say those lines. And when I talked to him on the phone or on Zoom, he said, oh, I wrote those. And I was like, what? He's like, yeah, I wrote those ad libbed those interstitial interjections. And I just couldn't I had this like I just got I just got tingles again thinking about it like words that were kind of like phrases, lullabies, companion comfort for me as a kid. This person that I get to talk to, I get to know that he wrote them, that they came in from somewhere from him. And that is just incredibly powerful. I also had an out of body experience where I had interviewed with Christine Ebersol, who's a Broadway goddess, saw her – Hello. Yes. Saw her in Grey Gardens in 2007. Could not believe that she said yes to me being able to talk to her about being in My Girl 2. And if I may just share a story about My Girl 2. 

DDS: It's your show, Em. 

Em: OK, thank you. I'm also wearing a mood ring. Hollar out to mood rings. But she she shared with me that. So My Girl 2 is about Veda. Remember Veda Sultanfuss? He can't see without his glasses. Thomas Jay is not in this movie. But Veda's journey in My Girl 2 is to find and learn about her mother because her mother died during childbirth. So she goes to LA and she has a whole adventure in LA. And the movie really is a sweet love letter to LA. And she learns all of these things about her mom, some of them beautiful and exciting and that help her create her own story of who she is and some of them messy and complicated. But on the way, she has a surrogate mom who is Christine Ebersol and is a beautiful mother figure to Veda. And when I was talking to Christine, she said the reason I said yes to doing an interview with you is because I became a mother during the filming of My Girl 2. And I had my baby on set with me. And it's this beautiful kind of synchronistic part about motherhood and themes of motherhood and who is a mom and what it means. And that's why it was meaningful to her and why she said yes. And so like that's not something I would have ever have known. And also, I can't believe I got to talk to, you know, Edie Beal from Gray Gardens on Broadway. It was incredible.

DDS: I'm kind of jealous. 

Em: Yeah, I mean…

DDS: So I want to return to the questions that we wrote down beforehand, if that's okay. And I noticed for myself when you talked about little Em that my eyes filled with tears. Just the kind of tenderness of bringing little Em into the room and thinking about that kind of healing journey that little Em and, you know, capital S self Em is on. And so I want to like dig in a little bit to this into some more of the psychology, if I can. And, you know, we're both psychotherapists, and we both appreciate the power of story and a narrative in the way in which we go about living our lives in both an empowered and impoverished way. 

Em: Yeah. 

DDS: And so, you know, we'll talk a lot about restorying. And, and I wonder, I wonder how much of that has happened for you. And how much intentionality was around restorying has gone into the book for your readers. So it's a bit about you and, you know, what's happened for you. But also, what do you hope is going to happen for readers? 

Em: Yeah, that's such a beautiful question. Thank you. Well, to just say to all of you and those who are joining in by livestream who may have read some of the book or thinking about reading the book. It's that question that I started with, which is what provides comfort for you. And where do you find yourself in that location. And how can you think back and bring in those memories and also what holds you in them. You know a lot of the book, the memoir parts are really hard and difficult times in my life. And I think, going back to some of the trauma and some of the chaos and addiction and domestic violence and all of those parts that came up in the writing were really hard. And having the power to tell those stories through the things that provided me comfort, safety, containment, predictability, the returning characters, right, the kind of same story but just a little bit different enough to package it in a new way was and is what makes sequels for me so transformative. And so, you know, thinking even about the first chapter which is The Great Muppet Caper. The holding environment that you know was created by my grandmother, who held me and took care of me when my mom wasn't able to for different reasons and my dad wasn't ever there. The holding environment that my grandmother created and also that Kermit created. Yes, I went there, Kermit. To the rest of the Muppets is a beautiful parallel, and I had my own Kermit doll that I would hold on to and walk around with and do my little slide down those little slides and that he was a good enough parent to, I'm doing Winnicott here. 

DDS: Psychodynamics, everyone. 

Em: Okay, psychodynamics. But a good enough parent to the Muppets holding them containing them hey Fozzy it's okay, don't worry, we're gonna we're gonna get down from this balloon, it's okay, but he's imperfect. And so is my grandmother and so is my mom. And so this idea of the parallel between that experience of the Muppets and a holding environment, and my grandma and my mom, it's all there. And so, telling these stories through the characters and through their stories has been really healing and really really really hard. And one of the things that I think as a therapist I'm curious if this happens for you to DDS is when clients of mine say like, oh you know I'm watching this show da da da, or I'm reading this book da da da, I always say what is it? What are you reading? What are you watching? And that is an opening, there's an opening for a connection. There's an opening for a further expansion and a deepening into understanding what are the characters, what are you relating to, what's there for you. And just see what happens. And maybe it's nothing right maybe it's like, you know, oh, you're, I'm rewatching season seven of Ink Master which I'm prone to do. But even in that, why am I rewatching season seven of Ink Master because there's a really beautiful moment of somebody getting tattooed and having a catharsis and having a beautiful transformative experience and it speaks to me and it speaks to my heart. So, asking about that matters, there's things that can come from it. Is that- How is that for you? I'm curious. 

DDS: Yeah, yeah, I, it's definitely the, the opening that you talk about and the way of connecting, and the way I think of helping, certainly in the way I practice therapy. That it allows the client or the patient to go, oh, wait, wait, you watch TV as well? Or you read books too? Or you've got- this sentiment and nostalgia are important to you too? And then all of a sudden, what isn't being said can be said. I'm sitting here almost having a bit of a like I'm having this parallel process going on because I'm noticing that what's happening between you and I, right now and with everybody that's either tuning in or sitting in the room is happening in the book too. So, there's, we are going, going in and out of humor and lightness, and then going to these tender kind of sacred spaces. I'm really touched. Like I'm just, I'm like I didn't expect this to happen. And when I read the book on vacation, I noticed that as well one moment one moment I was laughing and going, haha yeah I'm like right on me too and then I was like oh my god I'm like, I'm experiencing my own healing in the book, and you've written that. It's, it's a frickin’ masterpiece. It really is. I'm thinking as well about the society that we, you know, neoliberalistic kind of produce consume move on the past is the past, like, what's happening right now it's the immediacy, all of that, particularly in America, particularly now. And yet, you've written a book that is all about nostalgia. And you've written a book that is all about what happened back then, rather than what's going to happen, rather than what's happening here and now and what's going to happen out there. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit more about this, why, why is nostalgia so important? If it is so important in your own practice as a therapist, or in your, your life what the role of nostalgia, and yeah I wonder if you could share a bit about that? 

Em: Yeah, I love thank you for you just said to that was that was really beautiful and sweet. 

DDS: Meant it.

Em: I know I can feel it. Y'all I love nostalgia. I want to eat zebra cakes, little Debbie zebra cakes, and little Debbie Swiss rolls, all the time. I still do, and Ritz crackers with easy squirt easy cheese. Because when I do – I know, I just want a buffet of that – because when I do, it takes me back to this time of comfort, and, you know, you're right, the book oscillates between these moments that are hilarious and random and me doing, yeah dressing up as catwoman and doing a trampoline routine to her and then, you know, living with domestic violence in my house, and trying to escape that. And so, nostalgia isn't always for all of us, something that is a positive thing to return to. But my sequels are, and I think it's important. I also feel like just zooming out for a bit. I feel like there's a pull to get out of digital things like we want to return to analog like we want to just have like tangible books in our hands and not just ebooks or whatever. I think there's–

DDS: Walkmans. 

Em: Yeah, walkmans, like just get that cassette tape going. I think, I think there's like a lot of pull and drive for that. And I'm for it. And also the fashion is coming 90s fashion is coming back which I'm so excited by. I went to a show, the other day and I was waiting in line I was dressed up in some sort of femme outfit and I was like, every single person is wearing like something from like the Delia's catalog and I'm like oh my god this is so great but I'm out of place. But now I know this is what's cool now it makes me so happy. The return. I think there's a, I think there's a power and a transformation in the return. 

DDS: Say that again. 

Em: There's a power and a transformation in the return. 

DDS: One more time. 

Em: There's a power and a transformation in the return. 

DDS: Taking us to church. 

Em: Yes. And Stu Pankin who I interviewed again, dinosaur dad. He said, I asked him a question about things he found comforting I asked all the celebs that I interviewed what they found comforting and he said, silly movies like Teacher’s Pet, he listed a couple of older movies and he said, the movies are really bad. But I saw them with my dad. And that's when my dad and I could have time together. And that's what I think about when I watch these movies is that time that I had with my dad where it was just me and him. And that's the nostalgia that matters. And so thinking about that for us too like what nostalgia matters for you. It's going to be different for all of us. 

DDS: I want to, I want to ask a question that might feel a little bit dark. Because one of the things one of the other things that I see you do in the book is critically engage with aspects of the sequels that that wouldn't hold up today, such as reinforcing kind of problematic tropes. In a similar bind that many Harry Potter fans find themselves in, right? Myself included, given the problematic views of the author of those books. I'm curious, Em how you balance the joy and comfort that these films bring with the need to critically address the harmful narratives that they might sometimes perpetuate. 

Em: Yeah, beautiful. I mean, I think it's a huge problem. I mean, J– there's nothing that JK is saying that is okay at all. The transphobia is rampant and horrible. And, and I'm not in the Harry Potter fandom. But I imagine you can you can it's a both and that you both things can be true at the same time. And that we have to choose how we engage and for me it's about engaging critically all the time so in every chapter with every sequel I am engaging critically with it. I mean, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2: The Secret of the Ooze starts with a fat phobic joke which is inexcusable and not okay and it's not like oh it was 19 whatever that's okay. It's never okay. And it doesn't hold up, but as long as we're engaged with the critique, as long as we're engaged with the analysis of it. That's what matters. I teach a class here on Twin Peaks and depth psychology Twin Peaks another favorite show, and it's all about looking at it from, you know, a feminist lens from, you know, looking at it and white supremacist capitalist patriarchal lens that bell hooks brings in, and also loving the hell out of Twin Peaks at the same time. Right, it's all of the above. It's looking at who's missing what is the representation and holding our love for those things and making choices about how we engage with them. And I recognize as a white cis presenting but gender query identified person who is able bodied and college educated and many other things that things that I find comforting may not be comforting for other people and I upfront say that in the book, and it's important to acknowledge it. 

DDS: Yeah. Yeah, thank you. 

Em: How do you hold that for yourself, either with Harry Potter or something else that you're like, oh my gosh, this is such a problem. 

DDS: It was super hard for a while because just with my own beliefs. And my work, you know, in social justice, and, and, and myself identifying as trans non binary. And I had to ignore a part of what I enjoyed for a long time and I noticed how empty I felt without kind of like putting it to putting it to one side and and I had, I had to reconcile within myself. How do I appreciate the art, while at the same time, acknowledging that the artist and I would would would probably not drink wine together. Yeah. Yeah, so, and so that was a journey. And, and being able to hold the both and frame that you talked about being able to hold both of those realities to be true and allowing it to be complex and messy and a little bit fucked up. Oh, am I allowed to swear? Too late. Sorry. Normally I don't mind but because I'm on like live stream I’m like do I have to behave?

Em: No, you don’t have to behave.

DDS: I’m just gonna– So you’re queer. I’m queer. Newsflash. You describe, I’m gonna quote you, page 100, Marinelli 2024, You describe some of these sequels as queer, empowering and soothing. So, in queer theory there is a concept called queering, which at its kind of most foundational se– in its most foundational sense means like bringing identifying the way in which there are counter narratives that call into question that kind of dominant social discourse. So, can you, can you expand a little bit here, Em, on how these sequels which are often overlooked or dismissed embody the act of queering comfort. Yeah. 

Em: Queering comfort. It just sounds so good. Doesn't it? 

DDS: Yeah, it does to me. Like yeah we'll have some of that and some more. 

Em: Exactly, like ugh I want all of that. I want some queering comfort. 

DDS: As long as it comes with Triscuits and Cheese Wiz. 

Em: Absolutely. Ritz crackers. 

DDS: Sorry, sorry, my bad. 

Em: Yeah, it's okay. We'll work on it. Yeah, I think that so many stories in the sequels in my book are queering comfort in so many ways. I'd like to start with Miss Piggy. Miss Piggy in the Great Muppet Caper. Anyone? Y'all into–? Thank you very much. So, Miss Piggy at the Miss Piggy is in jail at one point in the Great Muppet Caper she was framed. Okay, we'll remember this, she was framed. And she's in jail, and they really need her, they really need her help to get it going here. They are at the Mallory Gallery, the bad guys are fighting and there's no Miss Piggy because she's behind bars. So Miss Piggy, with her superhuman pig strength, takes the bars of the jail cell and bends them open escapes ends up in a truck I think she like, pull someone over drives like a big rig truck. Then like a motorcycle comes out of the truck, she suddenly knows how to drive a motorcycle. She gets on the bike. She goes exactly to the Mallory Gallery zooms up to the top of the Mallory Gallery, and then ascends descends into exactly where she needs to descends on top of the bad guys, knocking them out and saving the day. 

DDS: She's a bad bitch. 

Em: She is a bad bitch, and she is awesome. And that is an example of queering comfort. She is a female archetype pig, who is not is not Kermit saving the day right is not Gonzo saving the day is not Fozzi saving the day, it's Miss Piggy, and she had to do all of that on her own. And I see these themes in a lot of these sequels, where there's a lot of like fierce, female, powerful characters. Catwoman is the same way in Batman Returns, she becomes like a feminist vigilante she takes matters into her own hands right. She moves from Selena Kyle, she has to become Catwoman to do Catwoman's work. Because men aren't cutting it. 

DDS: There's a there's a line in Batman's Return- Batman Returns that made me want to be Catwoman. 

Em: What was it? 

DDS: Meow.

Em: I love it. Hell here. I mean she is she is. She is fantastic and is she also troubled and also there's some shadow parts of her that are there. Absolutely. But she is is literally taking back the night. She like stops a rapist midway. I mean, she's incredible. These are examples of like, ways in which dominant culture storylines are being absolutely queered and shifted in gorgeous gorgeous ways. Even Vada as the protagonist in My Girl 2, she's taking matters into her own hands. To find out about her mom. She like, basically, manipulates a police officer to get an address that she needs of her mother's first husband, and then goes there to meet him. She’s a teenager. That is badass, Vada. Get it, you know? And so that's all there's this, this this whole, a lot of stories in here are going against the grain, I think. 

DDS: I mean, I think I think sequels in general, right, they are the often forgotten, often misunderstood, often don't perform that well. Rejects. Why would you watch those? That's queer all over. Right. That's queer all over. And that's the power that we have as queer people to go. Yeah. But watch out bitch because we're coming. Right. Like that's right. I've just got another sign to say that we've got to finish talking in a moment. So, um, two really light and fluffy questions. What is the sequel that hasn't been made that you wish had?

Em: I love this,all of y'all think about that too. Despite what would you want. I think my answer is very time stamped, but it's going to be Pretty In Pink 2. And, but right, but not now, but not made now made, you know, a few years after Pretty In Pink was made. And I want to see, you know, this disastrous relationship with Duckie and Christie Swanson that goes off at the end of the first film. I want to see that disintegrate and Molly Ringgold really coming to terms with the fact that she's meant to be with Duckie even though there's codependency there but anyway the point is I want it to also be a musical. It's got to be a musical. And maybe some more members of the Brat Pack, we could break we could bring those in as well. 

DDS: Divine. 

Em: Yeah, Andrew McCarthy is just there for some reason. 

DDS: Rob Lowe. 

Em: Yeah Rob Lowe, Demi Moore, they're just there. St. Elmo’s Fire’s playing in the background, doesn't matter. Wrong movie, doesn't matter. Something like that. How about you, what's the sequel that you would like?

DDS: Well, you know, I'm going to cheat a little bit because I want Grease 3 to be made and the reason why I want Grease 3 to be made is because in your interview with Max Colfield he says that Grease 3 was going to be made and Kylie Minogue was going to be in it and– 

Em: There's a lot of gay gasps that just happened, which I love. 

DDS: I would be here for that. And I can't even tell you, I would lose my shit. What can we expect from your creative genius next?

Em: Creative genius. Thank you for saying that. Well, I am currently co-authoring a book on trauma and Twin Peaks, the TV show Twin Peaks, which is- sounds really intense, but it's really joyful because we're getting to go through the whole series and the prequel film and the return which is season three. And write about trauma from that perspective and it's been really fun. I also have started writing Comfort Musicals. The sequel to Comfort Sequels, where I go through and have musicals for each chapter and I'm starting on Oklahoma which is, I have a lot to say because I'm from there. The musical, which is really strangely dark. Actually, like you said you're like Oklahoma the wind comes down the plane, dark. Lots of stuff going on there. And then I have a little pipe dream project that I don't know if I can pull off or not, but I really want to do an oral history of the movie Trees Lounge, which is an old Steve Buscemi movie that he wrote and directed and started and and probably no one has seen, but I really want to do an oral history of that book. 

DDS: Thank you.

Em: –of that movie. 

DDS: Well, I can tell you that the world needs more Em.

Em: This was so fun. Thank you all for listening. Oh my goodness. 

DDS: Okay, well we'll wrap there, Em.

Em: That sounds great.

DDS: I am so enchanted, enchanting. Thanks. Thanks for putting this out into the world. Thanks for sharing yourself with the world. It's important and needed. And thanks for bringing this group of people together. Yeah, I– I love you.

Em: I love you too. Thank you for everything. This was wonderful. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

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