CIIS Public Programs Podcast

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This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Through his yoga teaching and writing, Jacoby Ballard explores the intersections of yoga, capitalism, cultural appropriation, and sexual violence. He offers a queer-centered, fully embodied, and equity-rooted practice with meditations and sequences for processing and healing from trauma both individually and in community. In this episode, queer, transgender, autistic author and educator Nick Walker talks with Jacoby about his latest book, A Queer Dharma and the possibilities for finding an unapologetically queer path towards true healing and transformation 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on November 18th, 2021. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

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Nick Walker: All right. Well, hi. I'm Nick Walker, and I have the good fortune to be here today speaking with Jacoby Ballard, author of this wonderful book, A Queer Dharma, which is about to come out. You can see this funny binding here. This is an advanced reader copy and it's- we're recording on November 18th here and this is- book is coming out on November 23rd. So, I'm very excited for everyone else to read it. And I'm also aware that at this time, most of our viewers have not had the opportunity to have their lives changed by this book. So, Jacoby I just want to start out by asking how would you, what would you say? How would you describe the book to those who haven't had the good fortune to read it yet? 

Jacoby Ballard: Sure, half of it is a queer reading on the heart teaching that are found both within yoga and Buddhism which includes loving, kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity. And then whenever I teach on those topics and admirably letting go and anger and forgiveness come up too. So, there's chapters on those topics as well. And then the other half of the book is a queer critique on mainstream yoga and Buddhism and then a vision of a liberatory practice forward. 

Nick: Beautiful. And I would love to hear about, you do talk about this in the book, but I would love to go into just the life experiences that brought you to writing this book. What journey brought you eventually to writing a book, because writing book is quite a task. So clearly, you know, and the passion you brought to it really shows in the writing. So where did it come from? 

Jacoby: Well, I started practicing meditation when I was 17 in high school, and I was experiencing bullying. I had experienced bullying, being seen as a queer person. I wasn't out as queer at the time, but others marked me as different and treated me so, and so I was part of a group called Student Empowerment that was trying to get seniors especially invested in their education and giving- piloting a program where seniors could choose anything to study.  

And so, I chose meditation just kind of out of the blue. Looking back, it was totally divine intervention, because it literally kept me alive through that like, final year of bullying and just being disregarded and dismissed and harassed and assaulted every day. Verbally, emotionally, occasionally, physically. And then I went away to college. And I went all the way across the continent, we grew up in Colorado and went to Maine. Now, I can see, I was clearly fleeing, you know, danger [Nick: Mhm.] and on my college campus, I started doing social justice work and started a yoga practice, I was actually mandated to do a- to begin yoga because there's a wellness credit at my college and I procrastinated on it and then got an email from the registrar just sort of before the second semester of my sophomore year saying “if you don't take yoga this semester, then you're not going to graduate in two years.”  

So, I took yoga with this seventy-year-old woman named Lillian McMullen and she- her life had been changed by the practice. And so, she taught in a really liberatory way. And at that time in 19- or rather in 2002, yoga was generally taught much more holistically than it is now. It was taught as a full path, not just as asana, the postural practice. And so that really that- the physical practice did intrigue me because her seventy-year-old body could do stuff that my twenty-year-old athletic body could not. And then also just like the different pranayama practices, breathing practices, that she would teach us and the ways that we could resource the nervous system and now have language for it, I didn't realize it then that that's what we were doing but was really useful. But for a long time, my- even though I both started on the college campus, my social justice work and my, my yoga meditation practice were entirely separate and really needed to remain so because social justice world had this value of activists as martyrs and, you know, just completely devoted to the cause and often at the expense of the body, at the expense of family, at the expense of many things. And didn't really have room for spiritual practice.  

Now, more and more and at various times in history, social movements know that like spiritual practices actually help we sustain our activism. We need that and we see throughout the world, colonization- the violence of colonization targets the spiritual and health practices of a people to break them. [Nick: Yes.] At the same time, in the yoga and meditation world, they didn't want to about social justice. They didn’t want to talk that it was primarily about how it was, primarily white people in a room practicing an historically South Asian tradition. They didn't want to talk about- so, anything the, you know, the attack on Iraq and Afghanistan. Then when I was, when I was learning yoga, they didn't want to talk about racism, didn't want to talk about different identities.  

So, my paths remained pretty separate and then I would say that they like, kind of clashingly converged when I was working for a natural food store in New York that was run by a yoga ashram and I had just the year before, come out as trans and I was dressing like I'm dressed now and- but hadn't medically transition at all and was talking to my co-workers about how to treat me respectfully, you know, while we're- while we were on the job and my boss didn't like that. And after six months there on the job, I got, I got fired largely for being trans - for being out, and being trans. [Nick: Mhm.] And that, you know, it was heartbreaking because it was, it was run by a yoga institution. I had thought up to that point like yoga is good and just like consistently, holistically just all about goodness and liberation. It was the other side of the social justice work that I've been doing, and in that moment, I realized like, oh, no, absolutely not. This is the shadow side of yoga, and we need to reckon with this.  

So. So then I founded Third Root Community Health Center in Brooklyn about a year later. And we did work at the intersection of healing and social justice. Now there's a whole field called Healing Justice, right? But it was really new then in 2008, when we started. And we were doing things much differently, you know, we had acupuncture, massage, yoga, herbal medicine, and everything was at a- on a sliding scale, except for the yoga classes. The yoga classes we consistently marked at the low range of what the going rate was in New York City with the intention of, you know, people that can’t afford these services elsewhere can come here. And then we just kept doing what we will- what we're doing and you know, Third Root still exists. It has been around for 13 years doing what it- what it does. And it's also located in the Flatbush neighborhood of Brooklyn, which is a really diverse neighborhood, where there's 13 languages spoken locally. And so, one of our goals as, you know, a social justice institution was to eventu- work towards being able to speak all those languages inside our center, so that anyone who walked in could see that- could hear their home language. And in general, our whole goal was for the- the inside of us to mimic and mirror the- the external neighborhood, which was quite a different project than most yoga studios, were embarking on, or it's still embarked on or acupuncture places or massage studios or even herbal medicine at the time was- Yeah.  

And then we just kept doing that and I left Brooklyn in 2014 and kept doing social justice work and had to figure out as I moved to like- a small town in upstate New York. How do I still do this work at the intersection of healing and justice? And then as I moved to Massachusetts, now that I'm in Utah and you know, there's people that are hurting everywhere, there's injustice, unfortunately everywhere. So, there's always a place for my work.  

I would also say just where the book came from was being harmed in a place where I went to heal and being outraged and being really sad about that. And so, I started writing when I started teaching queer and trans yoga and mainstream yoga was pushing back on affinity spaces at the time. Now, there's lots of BIPOC classes and classes for fat folks and all kinds of different abilities and queer and trans yoga is pretty common now, but at the time, affinity classes weren't and so so many mainstream teachers and studios were asking me like, isn't that dividing the community? Isn’t that exclusive? Isn't that creating separation, but what they're really asking for, then is for us to participate in a space that- that centered white folks, that centered straight folks, that centered skinny bodies, and wealthy folks, at our own expense, right? So, this book really came from like wanting to claim space for queer and trans people, and just knowing that yoga- mainstream yoga wasn't actively practicing instituting- creating policies that- based on the teachings that we claim to be devoted to. 

Nick: That’s beautiful just- a beautiful journey and of course, full of- full of pain, you know. With you know, as you said, we- it kind of starts from being harmed and from wanting to see the world get better and offer something better. Create safety not only, you know, for ourselves but also for other people- for our communities, I'm really struck. I'm struck by some similarities there that for me that I was also, you know, because I've been an Aikido teacher for 40 years and became- that also came from me. From- from being bullied and targeted for- for being read as queer. And I didn't actually, you know, I've sort of always known myself as queer in some way and discovering myself as trans is much more recent for me. I was- pretty, pretty advanced in years before- before I got as far as oh wait, I’m actually, you know, actually full on trans woman and not just, you know, genderqueer, fluid, but definitely, as with you, somehow recognized as queer by the people who were most violently opposed to it from- from very young and you know, so I definitely, you know, started my Aikido, you know, training at age 12 specifically, you know, with the intent of being able to fight back better. And- and for me it was, yeah, it was also lifesaving and also, I think there's something similar there with what's happened- what happens- How yoga has become just so much about the asanas about the poses, and the movements.  

And I- you address that so beautifully throughout the book that it's about, you know, what is, what's the heart of yoga? You're really getting to the heart of it. And what is this really about as a path of spiritual healing and awakening and transformation? And that, of course, that's what, that's what draws me to Aikido and teach- keeps me practicing and teaching, and it was the farthest thing from my mind when I started training and I see that out in the world too in mainstream Aikido as well. That- that for so many people, it's about the physical techniques and there's a heart missing, and I'm really committed to keeping focus on that heart, keeping that centered.  

So. In terms of social justice work because, yeah, we do come from this place of being, you know, being targets of- of injustice, being from marginalized groups. And also in time, recognizing not just how are we marginalized and oppressed, but also how we're privileged and how we have to watch ourselves to make sure that we're not oppressors. How do we deal with that? But so much social justice activism I see in the world is so it's so anger-driven, you know, and there is, there's certainly no end of cause for outrage as we look at the world around us. If we have any empathy for the suffering of others, or even our own suffering. There's no end of cause for outrage. And, and so, it becomes, so outrage-driven and so anger-driven, and I- that sometimes, you know makes me despair of activism but- and I thought it so revitalizing to read your book because you're really talking about social justice activism from a place of love and from a place of compassion. And I’d love to just hear more about how that connects with your yoga practice and what it's like, you know, to work in social justice activism communities where often there is just a lot of anger and people acting out their trauma. And how do you, how do you bring that spirit of love to it? 

Jacoby: Yeah, I mean, I think that I think of anger as incredibly important and incredibly wise because it's telling us that something is wrong. It's telling us that some people are being marked. Some people are being targeted, you know, that the violence has been multi-generational for lots of communities, it existed for centuries, right? And so, I never want to dismiss anger. I think that's- it's so important to live into, to feel into and I think catalyzes most people in social justice work, whether it's on behalf of someone who's not like them at all or on behalf of like what's happening in our own communities. And I've also learned through my years of activism and through, especially my Buddhist practice, that where there's, you know, practices of right speech. Where one of the aspects of right speech is not to speak in anger. And the reason is not, it's not the instruction is not to stuff down your anger, or bury your anger, or dispose of your anger. It's just rather to like let that moment of anger wash through you, so that- because as a human species, we recognize tone of voice and facial expression and body expression, so much quicker than the content of our words. And so, if I'm speaking at you with anger, moving through my body, then your nervous system is going to receive that as a threat. And that's going to stop communication. So, the right speech practice is really in service of the wisdom of the anger. To ensure that the wisdom that the anger arises from within me can be delivered to you in a way that you can absorb after the righteousness, after the rage, after, you know, the adrenaline has rushed through my body.  

So, I think, you know, it's really important then for activists to have that understanding of the nervous system and how we're going to be received at that- that's not- it's not about strategy. It's not about tactic. It's like about the human body that like- we can't- this is how it works, this is how our nervous systems work? So, you know practices of discharge are so important to like, get the anger, get that energy, that fire out so that we can arrive in that place of wisdom and then also recognizing that the heartbreak that's underneath the anger comes from this place of love, like something precious is being assaulted or killed or damaged or destroyed and that's important to us and, you know, it really under- So I think underneath the anger, if we dig deep enough is the love inevitably for all of us. We just have to access it and find it, which means it's hard work, right? Because it means we have to go through the wound and that's scary. And we don't have a lot of techniques at large to do that. That's for me why- like why I kept practicing through my activism and why they were two separate channels for a long time. I didn't recognize it at the time that my, you know, my spiritual practices were fueling my activism and allowing it to be sustainable. At the same time, the spiritual places that I went to heal then like created more causes for my activism because they can be, you know, there's racism and there was misogyny and all of the things. 

Nick: So, it's just- it's beautiful. I just- I always- I need to take a moment after hearing that sort of thing just to let it soak in. So, I don't forget it. I want to say, I want to geek out for a moment on somatic psychology because, you know, somatic psychology professor, and that's definitely on my mind when I read about, you know, these transformative somatic practices and, you know, you really address using yoga to heal trauma. And what it means to do that. I'm- you know, I'm interested a lot of- a lot of the western somatic psychology tradition, has its roots in the work of Wilhelm Reich, who talked about the idea that our traumas and are our psychological defenses that we needed for survival through early trauma and are now kind of stuck in. You know, these stuck trauma responses that we live out and that inhibit our relationality and our connection. This stuff lives in the body as these deep muscular tensions, which Reich referred to as character armor, and something I've been struck by over the years as I watch people in conventional yoga practice, you know, very asana focused just athletic yoga practice is that a person can be extremely flexible in their limbs and you know able to do these extended headstands and wild stuff that my body certainly can't do. And yet, the armoring is still there, these deep conditioned tendencies, these deep tensions that kind of close off the breathing and close off the heart and in situations of conflict or when confronted with the unknown or the other, that still remains and somehow that flexibility work, no matter how athletic it gets, is not the same as the de-armoring work that releases those deep tensions. So, how do you approach that? How do you approach actually getting to that deep level of release in your practice and your teaching? 

Jacoby: It’s a really good question and a really important distinction because I think- Yeah, we can practice asana in a way that reinforces our patterns that are not skillful in relationship to ourselves or in relationship to the world. Right? I certainly see that. I think, you know, asana- one of my yoga students for their final project studied the relationship with- between asana and photography and that was an important- The development of photography was really important in centering asana because it is displayed yoga as just this physical practice of contorting the body. When like, there's so much else going on, but like, taking a picture of someone meditating is like not that interesting, right? [both Jacoby and Nick laugh] I mean as used as they are in like, pharmaceutical commercials and so forth now, but I try to teach in a way that invites students to let go of the performance of asana, the performance of a headstand, the performance of putting your foot behind your head and more just like, what is going on in your heart, and your breath, and your body on the way there. Because there's, you know, if we're not tuning in to all those other layers of our being, then we're going to hurt ourselves inevitably because we have to not be listening to something in order to just like forge forward and like, develop the physical at the expense of other aspects. So, I think that tuning in, slowing down, inviting people to have, there's lots of different ways to practice and lots of things to do. You know, I often say when I'm teaching and my students probably just are sick of hearing it that come every week, you know, if we're all doing the same thing that some of us are not being authentic in this moment because if we're really each listening to our body, hearts, and minds, it should be a variety of things happening in the same room. If we're all just like, moving into warrior two at the same pace with the same breath, someone's leading and someone's disregarding, someone's following, someone's totally dissociated and that's not yoga, right? Yoga is about all of our different layers being united and connected. And if we can have that in each of our own beings, then we can also find that sense of connection with one another. 

Nick: Mmm…love it, love it. Yeah…I find that, you know, in the way I approach my Aikido practice my Aikido teaching, I see it as distinctly queer and not, you know, I have a queer friendly Aikido dojo but it's not, you know, it's not- we say on the website, you know, we're queer friendly or LGBTQ friendly dojo, but you know, the dojo is not primarily queer. It's just- it's a traditional Aikido dojo and yet, I feel that I'm doing the work of queering in my practice very much. Like there's something, it's not about who’s present in a given class and who is queer and who isn't, you know, I might be the only queer person there at the time or there might be a might be a very queer group of students, but I always feel like I'm- the work of queering is in progress in the sense of there's something that we’re- there’s some work that we're doing, it’s changing our embodiments and changing our neurology in a way that that defies the gender binary, that starts to queer it and disrupt traditional performances of heteronormative masculinity and heteronormative femininity. And do you find something like that in- in your yoga practice? When you say that apart from creating spaces or specifically safe and welcoming for queer people, is there something distinctly queer or queering about your yoga? 

Jacoby: Yes. [laughs] 

Nick: I’d love to hear about it.  

Jacoby: Yeah, I mean, I think we could break down what queering means a little bit. Right?  

Nick: Okay.  

Jacoby: For- for me. I think it's- queer as an identity is both about sexual attraction and also about political identification and commitments. Identifying as queer is about being committed to anti-racism and working against misogyny and xenophobia and anti-Semitism and all of the layers of oppression in our world. And so, we could do that on the yoga mat too, right? Because all of that has to do with the body. It’s judgments and dismissal and violence against the body [Nick: Mhm.] of a fat person, of a disabled person, of a Black or brown person, of a trans person.  

So, I think part of how my practice is queer and how I teach in a queer way is absolutely including the political in the space. I've been in so many yoga classes where teachers, let me just say white straight women, have said, you know, we're going to keep the rest of the world out there. Like we're going, we're retreating from the world and, you know, those of us in marked identities, we can't, we don't have that privilege because that same violence that's out in the world is likely in the spaces that we come to heal, which is why we craft affinity spaces, which doesn't mean that we can ever keep oppression outside of the door, but there's less education. There's less explaining, there's fewer microaggressions if we're in an affinity space, likely, hopefully.  

I also think about queering embodiment. Like, there’s so many ways that men's bodies are expected to be and women's bodies are expected to be and that starts at a really early age. Right? [Nick: Yes.] Like, I have a toddler who's almost 3 and like, we're like paying attention to like when he gets those notions and ready to intervene and call the school and talk to the other parents and other things because we know that the gender binary, when it's the humanity of all of us, whether you're trans or cisgender, whether  you believe in a binary gender for yourself, or you're non-binary. And so, there's ways of moving in the body that's expected and acceptable for men and for women and, you know, ways that someone gets marked as we both did, right? [Nick: Mhm.] As- because I think for me in high school, it wasn't about my sexual preference. Like I wasn't sexual at that time, it I hadn't kicked in for me, it was about how I was embodied [Nick: Yes.] and my gender that was marked. And so, I think it's so important to explore that on the mat and get curious about what those, you know, the layers of armoring that we hold, especially folks that are queer or disabled, or fat, or any kind of oppressed body holds just from dealing with the violence in the world that's directed against us, you know in micro and macro ways every day.  

Nick: Yes. I found, you know, for me, I was, you know, when I was very young, you know, it's my environment was, you know, it was completely unsafe as it is, for most of us to, to be trans completely unsafe for me to be a girl, having been assigned male at birth. And even, even as I learned to protect myself, and such, still, I just- I kind of hid. I- even though I sensed my queerness, I really hid my femininity from myself in a big way and through a large, you know, there was a large portion of my adult life where I built up quite the- quite the facade of toxic masculinity. And- And you know, super conventionally binary masculine embodiment and it felt terrible to be in. But I- it really took me a long time and a lot- of a lot of somatic work to get through it. And discover. Oh wait, I'm you know, Well, I'm a woman in this whole, like I'm wearing this awful ill-fitting, man suit, and I don't even know if I'm ever going to medically transition, you know, and I'm a middle-aged, and I don't know if I need to, I, for me, I found so much of my gender dysphoria could just be gotten rid of by changing my embodiment and getting the- getting all that facade of masculinity out of my embodiment and- out of how I carried myself and how my body was.  

You know, I used to I mean, you know, five years ago, I was much bigger physically. I really was carrying this extra mass from just building this sort of huge bulky man suit, and which has kind of melted away with just changing how I moved and letting, letting some authentic- authentic embodiment emerge from inside and it completely changed how I did Aikido. It completely- my Aikido changed enormously from dropping that and I'm wondering, I'm just wondering if you had similar experiences or have seen similar experiences unfold in yoga with the actual- some shift in the physical practice around a person discovering themselves as trans and/or shedding the gender binary. Like, what have you watched that happen, to transform your practice or other people’s practice? 

Jacoby: Yeah, I mean, I think that's part of the value of having a trans teacher. [Nick: Mhm.] For a lot of us, that we create the space for gender exploration and don't have any kind of narrative or judgment about how someone should show up. So, I've witnessed that not just in trans folks or queer folks, but also in like straight men, which is like beautiful! [Nick: Yes, yes, it is.] Because part of the violence comes from, they see something in you that they're afraid to see in themselves, right? And so, they enact harm on you, so they don't have to see it in themselves. Right and it works, right? Like I did the same thing. I totally hid and pretended I was straight and acted straight and, you know, denied myself until I couldn't. Where it was like, gonna kill me. [Nick: Yeah.] And I also, I see that for all of us, you know, like that, that the gender binary limits the wholeness of our humanity.  

My, again, my kid is assigned male at birth, and we take him to the daycare, he's almost three and every other male bodied child is like wearing blues and greens and oranges and never sparkles. And, you know, only sneakers or big boots and there's like it's so limited like this is, these are your options for, for being yourself and for little girls, it's bigger, you know, I think it's- It's interesting for me being trans and parenting this little boy child to see how limiting the gender binary is specifically, for boys and men. I think it's much more narrow for boys and men, much wider for women, and then- and then trans folks are seen as a threat, you know, and, you know, like this year is the worst year on record for violence against trans people. We’re in the trans week of awareness, so it's on my mind. Because we challenge that just by our very existence.  

Nick: Yes.  

Jacoby: It's because I've been in one restroom and the other and I like, you know, that's a threat and, and all of our insecurities or you know, there's a lot get kick- gets kicked up by the existence of trans people that could perhaps otherwise be invisibilized. But I also think even if we didn't exist that like, the gender binary would be hurting folks, inevitably it would just be slower to come out. So, we wouldn't be the like, physical mirroring of like, hey, this is what that's possible guys! 

Nick: [laughs] Oh yeah. No, we really are, we sort of are the leading edge of look at what's possible here. Look at the levels of liberation and authenticity and or possibly- what's possible when you step outside these, these narrow little boxes of heteronormative masculinity and heteronormative femininity and someone kind of has to, you know, be playing at those edges in order to expand the window of possibility for people.  

Jacoby: Yeah. Yeah, then they're, there could be such a grief there and so much- I think, you know that masculinity especially has such an impact. Sorry. I lost my train of thought a little bit. Yeah, sorry that got interrupted. 

Nick: Well, I'm sure it'll come back around. You said, you know, you mentioned, you know that transformative effect that it has even on straight men to be in a queer friendly environment. And I've totally seen that in Aikido as well that, because that the- the requirement. Yeah, the requirements of heteronormative masculinity are so awful. There's- they really are just it's like you’re required to guard your masculinity with this belligerence. And I mean, the straight men in my Aikido dojo are just such sweet beautiful human beings. I'm just- I'm just always like, wow, this is what healthy masculinity looks like without the restrictions of heteronormativity. Just getting to be yourself and like they're still straight men, but they're just beautiful, wonderful people. And it's such an honor to work with them. 

And we do have straight men come in and try out the dojo and sometimes really freak out and leave. Like they really don't like that they're being asked to, you know, to get softer or even being asked to be instructed by women and it's striking. There are some that are not ready to let go of it and they get so aggressive about defending it and are so indignant about the queerness of the space, and some of them come to it and they're like, oh, this is just what I'm looking for. I can relax into this practice and it's just- it's very striking whether someone is, you know, just the difference between the people who are ready for that liberation, the people who are not able to let go of it yet. 

Jacoby: Yeah, and I would imagine then also that you see relationships forming between straight men that are like, totally different than like, [Nick: Oh, yeah.] what's outside of it. Because part of masculinity is that we should like do it by ourselves and be independent and not have to rely on anyone when actually that's just like fundamentally not true about human existence. [Nick laughs] Like you do in fact need each other and so we're killing, I am like the- we’re killing men and boys, right? And like they have the highest suicide rates of any group of people is white men. [Nick: Yeah.] Because of that isolation. How isolating whiteness is, how isolating masculinity is. 

Nick: Oh, it really is, I'm so glad to be rid of it in my- in myself. But yeah, it's true. The relationships between- and Aikido is such a relational art, you know, all of our practice, we're constantly practicing in partners, you know, we're- we’re intimately, you know, grabbing each other and throwing each other around and sweating on each other. And there's such a- an intimate connection with other people's bodies and with letting other people see, like, this is what you do, like, there's a nakedness to it of- because we're dealing with the fight, flight, and freeze reflex and how to transcend that. And so, putting each other and putting ourselves in each other in these direct martial situations of here we are actually physically grabbing each other. And how do we handle this in a way that is not full of violence and not full of the fight, flight reflex? And so, we see each other at our, you know, in our deepest struggles like, oh, this is this is we see each other in our states of fear and overwhelm because we're actively working with and working through those states, and it really does build these beautiful relationships for the people who are ready to handle it and stick with it.  

I'm curious. I'm curious about that in yoga too. Because, you know, it's we both- we both use the term on the mat, you know, both practices on the mat. But of course, the Aikido mat is the whole floor is covered in mat and we're all flinging each other around on it and touching each other and yoga usually there's separate mats. There's not a lot of physical contact between people except maybe the teacher, adjusting your body. So, I'm curious about how community blossoms within a yoga studio and particularly within a queer and trans yoga space like where, where does the witness of community and the connection start to form since people aren't grabbing each other in yoga generally?  

Jacoby: [laughs] Yeah. Well, I usually do a check-in or a check out. And it's usually- the invitation is a reflection around the philosophy that I'm teaching about, and the philosophies are always timeless, right? That like, compassion is turning our awareness and I, and our hearts towards suffering, and there's always suffering in the world to turn towards. There's always going to be suffering in our lives. And so you know, when I ask those questions, people have the possibility of passing or you know, some people might go really deep and be so vulnerable and other people might keep it surface layer and keep themselves safe, you know, but hopefully if people keep coming back, they know that like, that's a place where they can unfurl and that was part of my intention with queer and trans yoga. And then also just how I teach any class that I teach now is getting to know how the practice lives through each of us. And, and when I say, the practice. I'm not I'm really not talking about like hand stands or plank poses or warrior twos but like what is your heart opening to? What are your obstacles to opening your heart? What is your trauma in your life? And how do you see it get triggered? And how do you get through that moment? And just getting to know each other on that deep level.  

And you know what I see again. And again, is that students fall in love with each other. Whether that's, you know, a platonic love, or, you know, I've also seen intimate relationships blossom in the space just because it can be a really deep practice and we get to see each other's inner core and I think that's so beautiful. It's such an honor. That's what got me to teach in the first place. [Nick: Yes.] When I started teaching in college, was- was teaching administrators at my college. And they came there for all the reasons. I know now that people come to yoga, they came for because they're suffering, right? They came because they were preparing for hysterectomy or their kid had just attempted suicide or they're going through a divorce or they're up for tenure or whatever it is. Like there's something big in their lives and they're coming to the yoga classroom to grapple with that.  

And so, if we leave it, with just the body, I mean the body is very, very important and Western culture, especially is really disembodied. White culture is really disembodied. I think that's part- one of the elements of the system of oppression is disembodiment for whoever is in power. But if we just leave it at the body and skip the heart, skip, skip our life experiences. Skip. what you know, what brought us into the space in the first place. Like, that's also to be really deep because it's often that people’s own…either they’re recommitting to their ancestral practices for South Asian folks, or coming because their own religious and spiritual traditions have failed them. So, I think it could be I wouldn’t ever dream of not teaching the philosophy because I know how beautiful it can be when we do share how the practice lives through each of us. 

Nick: Mmm. Lovely. I'm just spellbound by your eloquence in- here in our conversation. And of course, in reading your book as well. I- I really am blown away by how well you speak to this stuff, and I also know of course that you've had to say some of this stuff over and over again because you're doing the usual book launch events and such. And so, I want to ask you, what have you not been asked in one of these interviews that you wish someone would ask? 

Jacoby: I haven't been asked that much about my chapter on that I speak to accountability and calling in and calling out. And white fragility in that and searching for someone to blame and shame. 

Nick: Ah, the subjects that scare people, funny thing that you haven't been asked about the stuff that scares people, well, well, I- I am a big believer in going where it's scary. So, I want to ask you about it. I want to ask you to talk about- about that for a little bit, if you would. 

Jacoby: Sure. I've- I've seen you know, as- in activist culture, there could be such an expectation of purity and having arrived and never enacting oppression. And I think that that high standard to aspire to is beautiful and we have to make room for our humanity, our mistakes, and errors and flaws. And the ways that we reproduce the systems that we’re breathing in. So, you know, I wrote a chapter on forgiveness. A chapter on anger that touches into some of that. But also, then there's the other side of it, where I see Buddhist yoga studios and Buddhist practice spaces that get called out. And they- well often a defense mechanism is a spiritual bypass of like we're all one or, you know, we’re the good ones or, you know, like not wanting to address it. That's part of- that’s certainly been part of my story where I've been taught at many studios that didn't want to have certain conversations about price and who gets to access the space and who the price excludes. Or conversation about gender and like the gendered bathrooms. And just the ways that people interact with each other in the space, that could be- Yeah, exclusive for people or- or so many yoga studios are up a steep flight of stairs, right. And like not accessible to so many people.  

And I guess, I'll also say on this topic that in the last year I've been supporting someone who was canceled. Who is in social justice work and got canceled. And then also supporting a couple of friends of mine who had a divorce where one cheated on the other and they got divorced. And, you know, in both situations, I like saw the thing go down and went right towards it because I'm like, there's opportunity here. Like, let's get messy, let’s get dirty. This is it, you know, so supporting someone who's been cancelled. You know, when we cancel someone is often a scapegoating of an individual when there's really a whole system that's responsible. And so, we're trying to like let ourselves, or let our friends, or let our colleagues off the hook, and just blame that one person like that, that’s it, they’re the problem, it's Dave Chappelle. It's only Dave Chappelle. But it's, you know, he's just reproducing what's in our culture.  

And then the same thing in divorce, or- or breakups or even within organizations, right? When there's like tactical strategic vision disagreements, whether there's a split. I think it's so- it's such a ripe opportunity to not let the community be split in that moment to like get big enough to hold this too. So that like, this break can happen right in the middle and to not have it break our organizations, to not have it break our spiritual institutions seems really important. And then I'm also thinking about Alicia Garza and her speech in 2017 at the Ally Media conference where she was saying, you know, do not say to people that are just now entering social justice movement “Where have you been?” even if they're, you know, late to waking up to injustices, let's greet them by saying, like “Thank goodness you're here. Get your hands dirty. We have work to do.” [Nick: Mhm.] Yeah, so, you know, there's some spiritual work that we need to do individually in our own hearts to grow big enough to hold the mistakes and the flaws and the breaks. And then certainly collectively, how did you go through that together and not kick someone out because their humanity showed. 

Nick: Right. Yeah, I think that's so important and it really it is- it is off-putting in social justice work. It keeps me away from a lot of activist circles because it's like, okay, you know, I want to work with friends, with beloved community and you know, having watched, you know, that, you know, sort of mob action, you know, cancellation scapegoating happen to people whose humanity show or are just, you know, accused and convicted without trial of something. I think you know, I can't be in these circles because friendship and loyalty are too important to me. And I know that these people will all turn on me as soon as I disagree with them on any point of ideology or as soon as I'm accused of something whether or not it's something I did whether it was an actual lapse or imperfection or just somebody accusing me of something like why would I do all this work with people who are only there for me as long as they're, you know, projecting some purity onto me and I think that that keeps a lot of people, I think away from getting deeply involved in social justice work. That it's so ugly because there is such a deeply ingrained culture of scapegoating. [Jacoby: Yeah.] And of course, that brings me to the obvious question, on a positive note, of what- what can- what can this practice? What can this do? What can these yoga practices that you write about offer as an antidote to that, as a solution, as an alternative. 

Jacoby: Yeah. One of my wise friends said a few years ago and it just keeps ringing in my head and I wrote it in the book too, is that, you know, shame and blame and guilt are not liberatory. That doesn't get us there. But these practices do, right? The practice of compassion. The practice of letting go, the practice of forgiveness does get us there. I also think when there's relationships across difference, like it's going to come up. It's inevitable. Like we have to have relationships across difference in order to forward our movements. Right? Like we need those in power leveraging that power towards justice and then we know need those who are most impacted at leadership. So, they’re you know, telling us where it hurts the most. So, we can attend to the biggest gush of blood and not just, not just a small cut.  

So, you know, when I'm white and when I'm in a relationship with Black and Indigenous and people of color, I know in any new relationship that it's going to come up like if we know each other and we're close enough for long enough, there's going to be some shit that comes up because of white supremacy and it's going to be a test to each of us in our spiritual practice. What do we do when it comes up? Right? Like do we ice each other out? Do we not call each other back for a year? Do we never collaborate again? Do we blast each other on medium.com or- I mean for me in this particular instance, being a person and position of power, I know that when it comes up, I need to soften and listen and put all of my defenses down and just know that this is both about me and our relationship, but it also precedes this relationship, right?  

One thing that I know from studying with Hala Cory [sp?] a somatic experiencing practitioner is that what is hysterical is historical, right? It's not just about this moment. It's because their parents lived through this and their, you know, their ancestors lived through this and they're like, they're done. They're exhausted. They’re at their wit's end and it's coming out on me because it's showing up in our relationship, too. So I know after years of practice of being in relationship across difference that when it comes up, to set aside my ego to not need to be right and to just listen and to really ask like, how can I support you or what's needed or how can we mend this or you know, if I said that in a way that was harmful like- how do you wish that I said that or what had, what do you wish that I had done so that I can do that the next time when this arises, right? Like one of my friends during the racial reckoning of last year, it was a really hard year for her and her partner, she's mixed race and her partner is mixed race, and they're trying to get pregnant, and you know, going on around the country and it was just like all brought to the surface and it's in, you know. They're marked as people of color and they also have ancestors who are white too, so it's like deep within their body, too. So, what came up is I hadn't realized that I was asking my friend for something like and asking her for a few too many things, for her to show up for me and actually, she needed me to show up in that moment. And so, she needed to take some space, to take some time from the relationship, and then cycle back. Sometimes we don't always get to cycle back. Sometimes we don't always want to cycle back, but coming back and telling me that like, hey, when I really needed you, you were asking me for something and that sucked. That tells me how I need to show up in those moments where something is inflamed in our country and a certain targeted community is in the spotlight, that that's not the time for any of my needs to be front and center. But we you know, I think we- the blessing of the practice is that it allows us room to learn and hopefully out of our awareness and our presence, we don't make the same mistake again. We certainly will make more mistakes, but we don't make the same mistake.  

Nick: Yes. Well, we have just three minutes left. So, any final thoughts we want to put out there?  

Jacoby: I guess one final thought is, you know, I say in the book. Part of why this book, I think, I hope is important is because it's written by a queer person and a trans person and that's rare in the field of yoga and Buddhism and all. But also, part of what's important about it, I think is that I've been embedded in queer and trans communities and anti-racist work for a couple of decades. And so, you know, I always get wary when you know, someone is marked as important because of only their identity. When their commitments or their politics might actually betray the community that they're part of. [Nick: Mhm.] So, I guess I just wanted- want to distinguish that, that I'm, you know, I write a whole chapter in deep devotion and joy to queer people and one of my friends was reflecting earlier, you know, from my launch party, the other night that the piece that I read and my chapter on joy is that I love being queer and I guess I could possibly make it if I was not queer but there's so much joy and beauty in queer community. And I- that's another place where this book comes out of is just like cherishing my people and seeing the leadership and the creativity and the artwork. And the innovations in healthcare come out of people that are targeted and have been harmed. Like we often have the best view of things and sense of what needs to change and how it needs to shift and how specifically it could be better. 

Nick: Yes, absolutely. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, that's a beautiful note to close on, we are about out of time. So, Jacoby, I just want to thank you so much for this conversation. It's been such a pleasure getting to getting to meet you through this. 

Jacoby: Yeah, you too, Nick. I hope we can keep in touch. 

Nick: Oh yeah, let's. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
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