CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

[Cheerful theme music begins]

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

The seasons and cycles of nature have incredible power to affect everything in our lives—including our creativity. Author and poet Jacqueline Suskin’s latest book, A Year in Practice, is a seasonal guide for creative seekers offering holistic practices to find clarity, activate hope, and honor nature all year long. 

In this episode, Jacqueline is joined by expressive arts therapist and CIIS Counseling Psychology programs professor Jenna Robinson in a conversation about how to explore and fortify your creative practice by accessing guidance provided by the rhythms of nature. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on January 31st, 2024. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

[Theme music concludes]

Jenna Robinson: Hello.

Jacqueline Suskin: Hi.

Jenna Robinson: How are you. Thank you for joining us. 

Jacqueline Suskin: It's good to be here. 

Jenna Robinson: Yeah. I heard in your bio the your forest poem curriculum and I was like, what is that I'm very excited about that. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, We can start there if you want to. 

Jenna Robinson: Yeah, why not. Why don't we, why don't we 

Jacqueline Suskin: That’s kind of my current focus. After this book was finished and came out, I knew that that was what I wanted to focus on so before it was published, I built this curriculum poem forest, which is basically teaching students about different ways to connect with the natural world, depending on where they live so it's ecologically, you know, location based, and I live in Detroit so I made the pilot program exist in Detroit where students can kind of learn how to write nature poetry, learn how to speak about their connection to nature, whatever it might be. And then at the end, they get to recite that poetry for each other, and their school community and sometimes a larger community and then they get to plant trees. So there's sort of like a voice aspect and an expression aspect, and then there's this tactile tangible earth aspect, the trees they plant are typically like on site at their school so they can watch these trees grow over their time of being and the way that that program came to be here in Detroit is through this program I work with, Inside Out, and they've been a functional beautiful part of the community here since the 90s so they kind of welcomed me in and they already have access to all these incredible schools around the city. But the bigger story of home forest is that it actually came from an interaction I had with someone long ago many many many years ago of writing poems and to make the story short. And it inspired her to start a poem forest program in Australia, that was really successful and they've planted over 15,000 trees and worked with students all over Australia so it's something that she actually brought to me and was like could you continue this in America. So I'm working on kind of expanding it and making it an open source program so any schools can use it around the country. 

Jenna Robinson: That's amazing. Amazing. I mean, and I hear the kind of multi multimodal aspect to it yes the the writing the expression the sharing out and then being with trees other creative act, bringing that in, but I'm also here in the community part of that, like to share your poem to witness other other folks to create a difference in your community by planting trees like that's a that's amazing. That's amazing. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, I think like at this point in my career, I really recognized that I didn't want to move forward and only be an artist who kind of focuses on myself and my inner world like that's not ever something that's been only of interest to me. Although I respect artists to do that I actually just am not. That’s not enough for me and so I was like well how can I kind of take this forward. And from doing the project that was mentioned in my bio the poem store. I saw how impactful it was to exchange poetry like that in person with people especially in kind of like a smaller one on one setting so bringing that to the classroom was sort of the next step. And it's just been a really incredible way to become part of the community in Detroit too.

Jenna Robinson: Right on, which is interesting like Detroit you don't necessarily think of as a city known for nature, or to be really connected with nature and you know there's a similar thing I mean there is lots of outdoor activities here in the Bay Area as well but sometimes when you get so caught up in the city, we get even more disconnected. So I'm a little I'm curious about that like, how do you nurture a relationship with nature in a place that can feel devoid of that. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, Detroit has a really interesting kind of weave with nature that is really apparent, and yet kind of wouldn't be thought of maybe firsthand and I mean first of all there are just so many old trees here, just like giant beautiful specimens that were you know planted when this city was probably becoming or you know they're still here they were, they were kept and then there's also a lot of spaces that require a different type of attention where everything has been demolished I mean and I won't get into the whole history of Detroit here but the tension between what's what seems to an untrained I like a natural setting is actually you know where someone's home was and there's a whole story there and so people's connection to the land here holds a really complicated view of what the natural world looks like, and I think that there's so much to be said in that and I find that the students I work with have a really complex and interesting approach to being able to, you know, see the natural world over of the plants and animals and all of that ecological community that has found its way back into Detroit, and why that happened and they know the history too so there's this sort of mixture of. It's something that kind of becomes illuminated when you tune into the natural world here that it still holds the whole human story in this really complicated way and I think it's a good avenue for people to talk about all of those feelings and I mean I think that's what poetry is in general. And when you add this natural world element connection to it and it offers so much. I think like perfect subject matter for them. 

Jenna Robinson: And I'm realizing that we just like went in— 

Jacqueline Suskin: I know. That's right you want to hear about poem forest I'm ready. 

Jenna Robinson: Yeah, like we didn't ground ourselves and, you know, get very situated in this so I you know want to, you know, bring us back to what is bringing us here with your, your new book, a year in practice and, you know, tuning back into the earth and the seasons and using that as a as a way to nurture creativity nurture your practice. I have a lot of questions for you. I love it. And I. So we'll get we'll get into it but I'm curious you said something kind of along the lines of, you know, it wasn't this exactly, but kind of like the trend transformation that's happening for you as an artist like it's not just about writing or participating in poetry in a particular way there's so much more. And I'm curious like what your definition is of an artist like, yeah. Stay there. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, um, I think I'm most interested in the definition that holds almost everyone. And that's not as simplified as saying, like everyone's an artist or everyone's a poet, but it's more like saying, I actually think it's possible for everyone to tap into that mindset, or like to cultivate a mindset that can hold that and I think what that looks like for me, and how I've brought that into the last two books I've written is more of like this practice oriented kind of can you teach yourself how to tune into a poetic mindset or an artistic mindset and what kind of practices can you cultivate around that and and why like what are the benefits of doing that. And that's where I think there's a whole, like, wellness arm that comes into this idea of artistry because it's not necessarily like I'm trying to teach you or prescribe some method that will give you a result as a poem on the page or a painting on the wall but more of how can you tune into this practice that allows your life to kind of open up a little more for even just like creative thinking or connective conversation and seeing, you know, how I've tended to those parts of myself because, yeah, they're part of my job, but also just because I'm naturally inclined to as a human like I'm interested I'm curious and I want to be able to express myself in a deeper way and I want to be able to hear someone with, you know, a wider set of tools. And I think that kind of offering up whatever tools I've collected throughout my practice of all of that that I just discussed is what is inspiring to me as an artist now is to like figure out the most creative ways to offer those things to other people. Because I think being an artist in a certain definition can come off as being like a really selfish act and there is actually a lot of my work that has come from extreme solitude, and has come from me, like, defining time for myself away from others. But then there's a whole other aspect of it that I would never be able to create if I hadn't had all the interactions that I've had in my life for all the relationships or, you know, connections with people so I think like cultivating and practicing that artistic attention or that you know poetic curiosity, to me seems just like an extremely healing thing. And it allows people to kind of know themselves better and at the heart of artistic practices I think that like self awareness and like seeing yourself a little more clearly or getting to know yourself in a deeper way, only then expands your ability to kind of live in a way that maybe feels better or that allows you to then, you know, be with other people in a more, or a more open way or something like that. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, like moving away from like a capitalistic definition of what it means to be an artist that you have to produce, you have to produce in this particular way, we've set the standards for here's this book that will tell you how to do that versus like actually, how do you nurture creativity and artistry in your life, regardless of the products or the things that you make like that that would be your life, your life is your, your, your art project. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, it's, it's your practice and funny I talk about that a lot when I talk about this book because it's a year in practice, and it really could be just a year in life on planet Earth, you know, and the idea of practice is that yeah we're always practicing life, we're trying to find ways that it can work better for us and I you know can we live in a, in a fuller way or can we be more present or more aware and all of that like takes so much practice and I think to, you know, find yourself in a more alive state, or to be no more excited or enthusiastic or anything like that is just really this practice of being alive and figuring out how does it work for you and what do you need, and what I'm most interested in what you have access to which is to me like things are really free, and that's sort of like why this book is kind of feels like this really sort of like radical suggestion to me which is like you know all the things that I talked about in the book are connected to the earth and the seasons, and all of that is there for everyone we just have to remember it's there. But it's, it's there for everyone, equally, just the, the seasons changing it's something that, you know, it's just happening with with or without us. 


Jenna Robinson: And you don't have to buy like an art set, you don't have to have paint or particular journal or anything to tap into that. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah. 


Jenna Robinson: Reminding me a little bit of eco therapy to like that you know how can we the intersection of eco therapy expressive arts of using the world as your canvas and to move outside versus being so solitary inside I mean I'm hearing from you there's something really important about being with yourself but you don't just be in your room by yourself. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Right. Well there's a season for that. There's a good season for being by yourself which is actually now. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, right just right now. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, depending on where you are I mean winter is I opened the book with winter, and it's the longest chapter in the book I have the most to say about winter, because I think it's the time of year in which I have been able to access practice the most in an undistracted in a highly focused way where I'm not as interrupted, because people expect less of you in winter, especially if you live in a place where it's really snowy and not everybody's able to be as social, and also just the nature of winter itself. You know I talk a lot in the book about plants and noticing plants and animals around you giving you these signs and suggestions of maybe where your energy could be, if you wanted to align with that and a lot of times it's like you know in winter, everything's resting. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah. 


Jacqueline Suskin: And I've talked to a lot of people about this book and my my deep hope is that this is kind of what gets carried across most is that people will read it or read a part of the winter section and they'll be like, oh, that's why I feel this way. In winter, of course I feel this way and they feel very affirmed in where they are at in the cycle. And I'm like, oh, if that's the only thing the book does is like provide this affirmation like you're doing great actually you're not meant to be having some huge output right now you're meant to be resting or you know, and the other months, the energies are different but I think it's just like a good reminder of that. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, I think you you talk about some of the kind of competing demands of holiday season and pulling you out of rest and how do you, you know, live up or do your social activities you need to do because they're important to you those relationships are important to you, and also take care of your, your energy. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, I mean I hear you that winter is forrest but I gotta say and I don't know if it's just like where I'm in my life that I'm very sensitive to people talking about rest but it's like the whole book is about rest like every, every season. Oh, and not just rest but like rest in and around water, like you. I'm very, very much about resting around water, and I'm like, like, winter, deep rest spring. Hold tight, don't do it too fast, you really should be resting before you're like bursting summer rest outside with people. Yeah, for fall prepare for rest like 


Jacqueline Suskin: Prepare for rest. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah. Okay, cool, cool, cool. And I'm curious about like that kind of being a center point that you're really rooting your readers and not just I mean when you're starting us with that with winter, but also it's so interwoven into every season and I'm, yeah, I'm curious about that. 


Jacqueline Suskin: I'm a big fan of that breakdown that you just gave. Yeah, I mean, it's woven with rest and. Yeah, I think that a huge shift in my practice before even writing this book was like learning to slow down. This is my eighth book, and I'm only just about to turn 40 this year so I feel like I've pumped it out you know I've like, I've gone hard and like I wrote 40,000 poems for people like I, I've done a lot of things in my life and I really got this message like that I needed to slow down. And I think when I looked at that I was like, Oh, everyone needs to slow down we're all doing that it's not just me everyone's like grinding and trying and you know under the structure of capitalism and you know all these things that are pressuring us to have constant output. And to challenge that I, you know, in myself, I really like I wrote the word slow really big on my above my desk and I look at it all the time and then I am an earth worshiper so of course I turned to the earth and was like what, you know, what's the deal here how do I embody this slowness that I'm looking for. And that was really a huge part of where this book came from was like an answer to that, which was like, actually like the natural rhythm of being an earthling is to rest a lot. And rest is just naturally built into every season and we are not examining that closely enough in our culture, in our society doesn't support that. So instead of, you know, just saying, Well, you should just rest, it's actually, I think it's been helpful for me to recognize like the wave of rest and say, even in winter when I'm resting I'm also regenerating so I'm doing something. And I think even the concept of rest can get really ambiguous and so I was like well how can I, like, pull all the details out of what that can look like in these like expansions and contractions like in an expansion period like spring. And the suggestion is like you're going to burst your energy it's going to go wild it's going to be amazing everything that you've been regenerating and like building all winter is going to come out but don't let it all come out too soon be careful and that's like the whole point of the form of rest is like you know like you said like don't you know just just like mind your steps and be like follow follow the guidance of what the rest of the earth is doing which is, you know, if you let everything out there too quickly it might die in the first place, what does that look like when it's applied to life and I think just the question around like the nuances of rest were answered for me by the earth. And then that again was like, oh, well that is just accessible information for everybody. We're just around them all the time. I just think there's so much in the way of us hearing it. So, that was like a big impetus for me with this book was to just be like okay is least there can be like some sort of reminder that like maps out how rest actually is built into everything. And I felt like a kind of like different avenue and invitation into understanding it. And that was really helpful for me so I was like well I'm just this little human animal that it was helpful for me it probably would be helpful for other people to. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, for sure. I'm, I'm some some of this coming up for me one, it's interesting that poets write about the seasons, a lot 


Jacqueline Suskin: So much 


Jenna Robinson: So much I'm in this like poetry group that's all just about the seasons and I'm like wow, so many poems. But yesterday I was in a group and we were talking about March pierces the seven of Pentacles, and it's and it's all about, you know, the work the labor you do in your in the garden of your life. And it's, it's, it's effort, a lot of her pumps effort, but that you there is a harvesting that will happen. And there was someone in the group that pushed so hard against that poem, because there was the, we have to work and work and work and I think that's what was for this person in the education system being just drilled into overworking that the idea that some another poem is asking you to work that we've gotten so disconnected from the labor of like the world's life of like seasonal labor versus, you know, industrial labor that is constant that it was hard for them to receive it to be with that. So I'm yeah finding it interesting maybe kind of the difference in work the way that you're ebbing and flowing it versus just a constant request for output. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, I love that reference, especially because practice is work. Like the, you know, the idea, the word work, and I have this whole thing that I've. I always like to say life is a job. And you know this is like people have a hard time with the idea of work and job for exactly what you're talking about and believe me, so do I and yet I am like you know well, this life is an endless effort like we're living in a world where if let's just say capitalism didn't exist there would still be effort, you know, to be alive is to exude effort, but I and so I think the word practice. I have turned that word into like a synonym for life or something. And what I what I see in that is like a very purposeful work, and I, I am. I'm reminded of conversations that I've had with my mom, who will find some sort of like wellness language or something that she's like oh this is really great this could really help me but then she won't do any of the work. You know it she'll she'll love it and I can see that it moves her but then she won't like keep it up she won't stay engaged with it so none of the benefits come. And I've watched this my whole life and I've seen it come in different ways and different styles, and I always am. I'm so curious about actually the intersection of what you're talking about about this resistance to work that is rooted in something that is like anti oppression and like you know it's very important. And then also this like great passion that I feel as a person for working and for that effort of life and know how do we like make the balance between those things and pull the good parts from, you know, I'm fascinated by that. 


Jenna Robinson: Sure, it's the, I think there's something a difference between like the the labor you choose to do versus what you're you're being forced to do, or maybe not always like force force but like required to do in order to survive. Yeah, from, from some sort of external force versus what is maybe a soul decision and I, I think there's there's a bit of that in Trisha Hershey's work so I appreciated you, you know shouting her out. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Oh yeah, 

Jenna Robinson: In your book, and 


Jacqueline Suskin: Impossible talking about rest without talking about her work I don't think we can ever do that again. 


Jenna Robinson: No, we can't we have to give credit. Absolutely. But you in that you also talk about, you know, it was just a blip, which, you know, I wish you were able to put some more space for this but like the, the privilege of rest. And especially as an artist to be able to say that you have space to rest as an artist is is such a privilege. And I'm, I'm, I'm one curious about that if you want to speak to that a little bit more and yeah I'll just stop there. I have more questions but 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah yeah. Well there's lots of things I could say on that and I'm glad you brought it to the forefront because I think talking about rest and talking about what you're speaking on is I mean I start the book with this concept of just like, it's a privilege to even call yourself an artist because most people, I think, don't even have the time or capacity in their day to consider or hold that, and for many reasons and I think that's like in the first few sentences of the book I'm just like, I know that that's that's a luxury to people's lives to even like circle the concept of being an artist and I think that the feeling of talking about rest and talking about it as like a radical resistance act is is actually not for me to, you know, do, and that's why I'm like, let me say that in my respects to the people who are giving voice to that, and then I will talk about rest in these other ways that I've experienced myself but that I also do feel like if offered as an opportunity even as a thought, like, the first thing that comes to mind is bathing, or being in water. This idea of something like that being accessible when we remember it and practicing prioritizing maybe helping other people in your community, come to that, remember it, talk about it, even, even like drawing on what I was saying before the like intricate nuance of rest. I think like showing how that arrives throughout the year. And it feels like this invitation I had someone, we were talking about the book and talking about how, you know, it's not a prescriptive book I don't say like, this is what you should do, I'm like, here's what I do, how does this work for you. And what does that say about you and your position in the world and your connection to the earth, and if your privilege comes up against that, and the friction of your privilege shows you something there, what can you do with that. How can you utilize it and I'm really just interested that in that in general with like the earth, and like having conversations about what the what the earth is trying to tell us to do all the time. And that to me kind of comes back to like access and remembering and like, bringing, not even necessarily new language to it but just almost like repetition is like a form of love and being like I'm going to repeat these things in this book that are accessible in the hopes that they will then also be repeated and kind of offer this invitation for someone who's going to have a completely different experience than I am, but there is hopefully some simplicity woven into it that feels human and accessible that that's my hope with it. 


Jenna Robinson: Hmm, for sure. Yeah, sure, I will say in reading your, your book I think I read it early December something like that and I was like oh I'm just gonna like rest, I get it, rest, rest, I get it, I'm gonna rest. Because I think what I do is I put a lot of things off, and then they end up just piling up and there's never actually a time for rest so I did this hard push to get things done, and like had like three weeks to do nothing. So I like journal I walk my dog like I was like, you know, in it. And now I'm having a hard time doing. 


Jacqueline Suskin: I cant get back in it like I only want to rest. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, I mean, and I think that's part of what you were talking about about spring like it's really hard to like start to come out of that place. But I'm, I'm like curious, we've talked a little bit about rest in our program and expressive arts therapy programs. Faculty really centered it as a part of our. We do these things called faculty narratives where we give a part of our artistry back to students at the beginning of the year, and it was really centered on rest, and there was a lovely invitation. And there was also, you know, some dissonance with asking graduate students to rest who one, are in programs, graduate level programs often, you know, have families have jobs. They call themselves artists and we require them to have artist practices. So there's just so much put on their plate and I'm curious, you know, I know it's not a prescription but like suggestions you would make for somebody who has a lot to do kind of just right now. And is really needing rest for to nurture the creativity. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, yeah, I love that question I think a big part of what I tried to circle back to consistently especially in the winter section where like rest is actually the most like straightforward point is like these tiny little bits of rest and not being like, because I, I'm in the season right now where I just had a book come out I just went on a book tour I'm not rested. And yet this is my season of rest. You know I wrote this whole freaking book about it and now I'm like, well, no rest for me. But I, in thinking about that even for myself. I think there is again this ability that we have to practice kind of fine tuning what that looks like for us, and being like okay if I'm going to tune into this season of winter and tune into this idea of like regeneration and rest, and I only have like three minutes in the morning to rest, like, how can I practice what what it feels like to be in that space so there's a lot of like embodiment that I think this book kind of comes back to. Instead of it being like this rigorous like I have my, you know, my whole bed setup, my eye pillows and my like, you know, perfectly tuned sounds and everything you know that I need like things things or materials or anything like that, I have literally like three minutes and I'm just going to lie here and it's, I'm going to be silent. I'm going to be still, there's like a whole section on stillness, and like, I think I tried to find ways for that to become apparent for people who don't have a lot of time. Rest. Because I mean I think that's been really crucial for me to be like okay, I'm in this winter mode there were all I want to do is curl up and do nothing, but maybe I can only do that for three minutes one day this entire week. If I'm aware of what I'm doing. If I'm not just like zoning out looking at my phone and kind of like carelessly resting I'll say, if I'm taking care to say, I know what I know what this is like maybe with practice I can get into a deeper state in these short periods of time. And I think that's a big part of why I think the word practice is actually really important for this and why I wanted it to be in the title because I was like this stuff doesn't come easily. I'm not trying to say like, well the earth is telling you what to do it should just be easy peasy you should just like tune right in and be this like person who flows with every it's not I don't think that it's like that at all I actually think we're up against a lot when it comes to not just resting but like even creating and and finding our, our, our feeling that feels like what we need it to what each person needs it to feel like in order to be able to create, let alone, like you know bring something into fruition or finish something but like even to come to an idea or the headspace around what it looks like to rest or to feel imaginative or something like that. 


Jenna Robinson: That its, ike a desire that we have to have the right answer just right now, or to have it just figured out just right now and that's not even. That's not the end goal that's not any, any of it it's it's to be in relationship to be in practice with the trying to figure it out for yourself and learning yourself in that process. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, exactly. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, well, what a lot. That's that's life I mean I'm hearing really yeah about life I hear the synonym with practice and life, really like I'm feeling into it right now. I think you also name it kind of as devotion. And I'm wondering if there's something like some connotations in the word devotion to a practice like. Yeah.


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, I like that you brought that in. Yeah, I, I do think there's like a deep reverence involved with all of this, and when I, I focus on the earth as my reverential point of view, like I'm an earth worshiper but I also like humans are the earth, we are earthlings you know I think of us as these planetary beings I don't separate us from nature. So, equally, as I feel devoted to worshiping and revering the earth I feel that way about human beings too. And so there's, there's something in me that's devoted to in like the most like zoomed out version of this like just completely devoted to whatever this like grand experiment is like this chaotic strange experiment of being alive. I feel so inspired by what is possible and so curious about it, even in like the deepest darkest moments, even in like my most brutal moments of sadness or grief, I'm still like, what is happening here. And to me, that's like the poet in me is like, I'm here on earth, devoted to figuring out what's happening, and that doesn't mean there's an answer it just means I'm paying attention. And the way that the earth moves seasonally nurtures my attention. If I'm connected to it, if I'm, you know, practicing my mental, emotional and physical connection to place where I am. And then I'm, I'm learning more, and I'm experiencing more, and that that's like where my devotion resides is in that relationship. So I mean I think that that kind of can get really big and heavy but I also think you can just be as simple as like, yeah, I'm curious enough about being alive that I'm devoted to the practice of enriching that experience, and not just for myself, or anyone else who's having the experience, any other being any other plant or creature. And I think that that devotion is sort of what fuels me to kind of want to practice more, because I'm just like oh I'm devoted to this experience so why would I not want to try to like, you know, finally tune it or, or pick up more tools or learn, you know, ways to engage with it that are healthier or more expressive for, you know, whatever it is that I'm doing and I think that I can see that desire in other people light up, and I've seen that over and over and over again through poetry and through people that are hearing poems or experiencing this like devotion to the grant the grand experiment I like to call it, you know, they're like, Oh wow yeah I feel that through this poem, and to me I'm just like that just means it's already in them and they're just having like a real access to it or an invitation to join this other person and through language and I'm just so I that just like lifts my spirit up because I feel like it's something that's so deeply rooted in all of us and then that feels true to me. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, yeah, I'm hearing kind of the, like the spiritual aspect to this if you are so devoted to something that that you have to speak to speak about it you have to write about it, like there's a testimony aspect to kind of what you're kind of what you're sharing wanting to share this with people. And I'm curious I'm curious about like what you think is the relationship with poetry in particular like to do that so I know you were talking about the poetic sensibility of a mindfulness but the, not just the awareness like there's something about the writing. And you said the lighting it up people hearing it and I'm curious like yeah what do you think it is about poetry in particular. 


Jacqueline Suskin: I think there's something about language, acting as you know a symbol and building a bridge between some really macro idea or feeling and connecting it to something like really micro or small or every day, or, you know, normal every day kind of living connected to this like really big macro idea and I feel like poets do that so well. And that connection is often like extremely overwhelming for us, but when it's done well in a poem when the bridge is built carefully when each word is chosen to make the connection. There's almost like a catharsis or relief that people receive from being able to like walk over that bridge and touch the big big big thing, but gently and they're like held in the process, instead of them trying to find that connection on their own and maybe feeling overwhelmed or confused by it. And, you know, I think that that big macro thing I'm talking about can be many different things like the abstract things of life you know like fear or, you know, love even or anything. And I think of poetry as yeah it's like this like carefully built bridge that, you know, it's just like here if you really, if you want to touch this if you want to know it more, you can do so and it's like maybe safer here for you. And you're held in it by this writer who took the time to like carefully construct these words for you. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah it's like the scaffolding between the marvelous and the mundane. It's like, in our bones, it's in our, it's beyond our, it's like beyond our consciousness really it's like in our nervous system. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah. 


Jenna Robinson: Um, Yeah. Okay, I'm curious to like as we're talking about kind of on this realm of spirituality like you you calling yourself an earth lover? Is that what you said, an earth? 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, earth worshiper. 


Jenna Robinson: Like how did that happen? Like how did you come to this place of a devotion to the earth? 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, I, I've always been like that even when I was a little kid I would just collect like little shells and dead bugs and like I would put them kind of like on an altar in my room before I would, I even knew what that was and I would just stare at them and kind of be just in this state of awe of like, how is this thing real? And look at how intricate it is. It's always about like the massive amount of little perfect details, and then like how that fits into the greater structure of things and I remember learning about animals when I was younger and just like how absolutely like intricate and nuanced they were and perfect that for their niche in the world. And I think even as a kid before I had these like bigger ideas of the grand experiment and like you know the chaos of the universe I was just like, how could this thing even exist? You know, I think that that awe like to be awestruck like that by the earth. And specifically, also just loved being outside, like, I would just go outside as a kid. I was, I was born just right outside of Detroit where I live now, and I would go and like lie in the snow and be out there in my little snow suit just, just in the snow for so long, because it was silent, and my mom would come out and be like what are you doing out here? And I'm just, I'm happy out here this is where I want to be. And I'm also an only child so I had some peace. And I think there were just all these, you know, connections with like trees and outdoor space that I felt such a depth with even as a kid and then as I grew up it just became more and more evident to me that that was my connection to everything sacred or God like or whatever I felt comfortable calling it. And now I just say I worship the earth because I think it's like, I really am in the in the spiritual sense, deeply interested in the fact that I am here on earth, even though in my spiritual understanding of things there are many connections to be had to other places or feelings or ideas or concepts, but I'm, I am here, my consciousness is in this body on this planet so I think to me even just that like equals this devotion, like this is where I am right now so why would I not like really be here and be like, you know, revering it. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, to be in awe of the world and the present moment in particular it's not just the world at large the past and the future but like how it is right here, where you stand. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah. 


Jenna Robinson: It's such a gift I gotta say it's like have that perspective to come out into the world that way. I think so many of us don't, we don't come out that way to have a wonder of the world and such an appreciation and even maybe some folks who do. In my experience a lot of folks get turned away from that because they're called, you know, weird or lazy or whatever you know derogatory term to, because we don't understand it. Our society is not really made that way so I'm, I'm feeling an appreciation that you have that like what a, what a, what a precious thing to have in the world. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, I feel incredibly grateful that even in their huge periods of my life, where many things could have steered me away from the way I feel about the earth, but, you know, I think about these different times when I turned back to it, and sort of. I do think actually a big part of why I was able to hold that so deeply was that I had came from a family that was not holding me, and so the earth was always holding me. And I was like, well I know I can always turn back on like this, this will always be behind me the earth is always holding me, and I think that actually like reinforced it like throughout whatever traumatic experiences I had in the human world, like, the earth was like no you're good, and it took me a lot. I will say it took me a long time to fully accept and feel the human aspect of my earth love. That was not as easy for me but I, you know, I've practiced that and cultivated that over the like probably the last 15 years of my life so. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, you mean like to hold reverence for the people as a part of the earth. Yeah, 


Jacqueline Suskin: well, yeah. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, that's a whole nother thing. They're not as not as consistent as the ground. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, I appreciate that like the idea of having an your attachment figure be the earth instead of your parents, especially when you have such deep wounding with people who are inconsistent or harmful. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, 


Jenna Robinson: the earth, and I'm also holding because I got some stuff about nature that I think is ancestral when you've been harmed in nature or when nature has harmed you and, and, you know, kind of getting into a healing relationship with the land is a is a whole nother thing. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, 


Jenna Robinson: Especially I'm thinking up here in the Bay Area, I mean in California in general like the the way you know five wildfires are and how people can be in such a tense relationship with with the earth. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah. Well, I'm, this is going to feel like a weird segue. We're talking about I remember you talking about a tree, a particular tree, and you. And you also talking about sharing your art, or your poems whatever with trees like with the land. And speaking of like moving from rest, you were talking a lot about in summer sharing your artwork in communities. And one of the options you give us to share with trees. That's where I'm making this connection. And I'm curious because you know we talked about maybe some folks who don't feel comfortable being called an artist, but are maybe moving into creating something. And you are hesitant to actually share that and kind of what suggestions would you make for folks who are trying to move outward but there's some some self consciousness, you know, low self esteem around their artistry around their personhood. So to share that one. Like how what suggestions you would make for sharing that with people. Human human earth beings. Um, And, you know, if you were to make the distinction between sharing with people versus sharing with the earth like how do you know which one to go with. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, I think in the summer section I talk a lot about sharing and, you know, because I do think when to share is a big part of it like seasonally yes but also like knowing when you have enough energy and you feel like you're ready to do that, it really comes with like a certain point in the project like where you are like, Okay, I've like worked on this enough, I love this thing that I made, or you're at a part in the project where you're like, I need help and I want someone's opinion or someone's eyes on it to like give me some suggestions or like nurture me or even just to affirm me and reflect back so I think there's like these two different kinds of sharing that I'm really interested in and I think that kind of checking in and being like which one of those am I ready for. And sometimes I think there are folks who just are getting so close to wanting to share, but they're really nervous about that and there's a lot of, you know, restraint or even like resistance within yourself feeling comfortable doing that but then you're like, Okay, maybe you have one person who you know like your best friend or your aunt or someone who you're like, I feel close enough to this person. I'm gonna practice with them and just say ahead of time, this is my best suggestion just say what you're looking for. Just be like I'm going to share this thing with you. I would love some feedback some, I would love for you to critique it, or I would love for you just to receive it. And I don't need you to say anything, or, you know, I would love to know what moves you and like what part of it you like, I don't want to hear anything that you don't like, or like being really specific. I have practiced this with my friends who we have these little salons that we do sometimes together while we're working on things that we haven't shared with anyone else, and we'll share them with each other and ahead of time, we'll do that will front load with like, this is what I'm looking for from sharing this I would really like for you to give me some actual notes, or you know there are there are ways you can kind of differentiate between like what you're looking for hoping for. But if you're really ready to kind of perform, or in like try it out without feedback without the idea of just as I want to have an audience or, you know, it can be really small, you can have a few friends experience that, or you know you can there's all these things in the book that kind of suggests different types of performances like you could have people to your house and have a little backyard performance you can, you know, try to like make something happen with a local gallery and I do kind of like walk through a lot of tips like that in the book because I think that there's a lot of stuff I've learned through doing like a many DIY tours and things around the country where I'm like, Oh, really, like, this isn't stuff that I knew before I only know this by experiment and I'm like here, here, I always say this about the book here are the results of my like many years of experimenting, you know, and I say like I did a bunch of research for this book and I'm like well I did but I also researched my own life and I did it very carefully and was like what parts of sharing felt like they worked for me and also witnessing a lot of other people in my community share that I like consolidate information like that that would help you know people feel people to feel comfortable because I think that's a big part of it and like that again requires some like deep reflection and yourself of being like, well, the way you feel about sharing your work is different than the way I feel so I like I try to like leave a lot of room in that language for like there's a lot of different ways you could try it out. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, What can you, what's the difference between sharing and performing because you said if you just want to share versus if you're ready to perform. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Maybe performance is like a more of a, I don't really want any feedback kind of like I'm just going to give you this thing, and then sharing might be more of like we're sharing in conversation about like your, your thoughts on what you think about this or like maybe you want someone to edit something or like being careful to say like I'm delivering a show for you right now, or you know I'm going to show you all of my paintings, and I don't want to hear anything in return you know I think it's really good to get all that language clear for yourself before you go into it and that might not be something like you're, you know, used to thinking about so it's good to practice it. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, I don't think people do that in relationship, like, exactly what you want and to ask very clearly this is what I'm looking for. I don't know that one that we know how to do that but let alone that we feel like that lots of people feel like they have the confidence or the authority to say that. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, 

Jenna Robinson: to do that for your creative act might be a good practice, actually, 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah

Jenna Robinson: it's a good practice. Yeah, to state your boundaries and 

Jacqueline Suskin: yeah, 

Jenna Robinson: what you want. I don't know if performances you're not receiving feedback there's some feedback right there. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, right, right, maybe some clapping, but I think I think I mean that in the sense where you get to like, maybe you're a little more removed like you can choose that like a little bit more of a wall there or something as opposed to being like, we're in our sharing circle, you know, 

Jenna Robinson: deep conversation. Yeah, and maybe maybe sharing also sounds like what you're talking about with salons is like there might be a reciprocal sharing that you're not the only one coming in with a poem or some art or a piece to share that you're you're in community with that. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, and I think that's kind of why I like to talk about it in the summer section because it's like oh that's so nice to just be like, yeah, we're all together, like, the weather's nice we're all like feeling a little more open, and we can kind of like have this reciprocal moment where we show each other all the things we've been working on and I don't think that that's like an incredibly common thing to do, but I just think that there's something like deeply human in there and that when we let ourselves do it with people we trust and care about it just feels so good. 

Jenna Robinson: Yeah, 

Jacqueline Suskin: I just love to like reinforce that. 

Jenna Robinson: Yeah, you know, I think people do do it but I don't know that they would call it a salon or call themselves an artist doing it but that's what they're doing you know when you bring when you bring food to someone's house something that you made, you're looking for feedback sort of right you want the ums and the ahs and that's right and to get somebody else's there's so many ways that we set up these creative communal like sharing spaces and there's a part of me that wishes folks would just like call themselves an artist or see themselves more creative and I appreciate that you're like whatever if you call yourself that or not, it doesn't matter this will help you. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, 

Jenna Robinson: But there's there's the artist part in me that's like no we are I guess the. I don't know what it is it's not just an artist like the street artist in me that wants to like say like we need to be like calling ourselves artists, and it should not just be reserved for, you know, elite academia or high art spaces like why can't we all be that. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Like legitimizing the artistry of even the person who cooks this beautiful meal for their friend, like there is a craft to that like that person artistic touch is in that offering. And calling it that and giving recognition for that in that like legitimizing of it, just like kind of like fuels it. And, I mean, I think that that affirmation is really at the heart of what we all kind of are looking for with each other and just like I see what you're making, like I see the care and time you put into this and I'm, I'm actually getting something out of experiencing it like if you only made that for yourself, that's fine. But because you shared it with me my whole life is different. And that's, I mean that's huge. 

Jenna Robinson: Yeah, and so like, not just a mindfulness appreciation of the world but of what you're saying it is of the world of relationships to elevate people to be in awe of the care that others have given you. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah

Jenna Robinson: Yeah. I know that you have a lot of poems in here you've written so many poems and I'm wondering if there's any that you would like to share with us, especially given this period of rest that the world is in. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah, yeah. Well now that we have this long conversation about rest to, I'm like I should, I should read something from the winter section. The book kind of, it's broken up by the seasons and there are these sort of meditative poems that kind of ground each part of the seasonal chapter and because a lot of it is built around actual practices and things you can, you know, actively do but then there's also these sort of meditations on these larger ideas and since I think of winter as not just a time of rest but of reflection, which can be a really active thing. I think I'll read the meditative poem from the reflection section. “Reflection. In stillness, we find the ability to listen deeply to ourselves, the planet, and the many voices that guide us in our practice. It gives us the spaciousness to contemplate all angles, all details of what was, of what brought us to this point. And now we choose what to muse on, what to mull over and enrich. Let yourself be present as you become the vessel for new images, updated pathways, versions of the future transforming in your mind's eye. What you once saw as solid, shifts now, because you took the time to give it a different voice. What you once knew to be your medium expands now because you assigned it a new name. This is the height of the experiment, all creative potential gestating in infinite color held within the quiet world of self, readying for a timely rebirth, according to whatever guidance you conjure. Do this work with care, at a bear's pace below the cover of ice, held by the soothing silence of snow.” 

Jenna Robinson: Right on, Thank you so much. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Thanks.
 

Jenna Robinson: I am taking at a bear's pace. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah. 

Jenna Robinson: I'm sinking into that. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Yeah. 

Jenna Robinson: I really appreciate one, not just the poems that of your own that you shared, but you shared a whole bunch of other people's poems as, as like jumping off points for folks to, to deepen their practice and I really appreciated the diversity in your poems like, you know, more contemporary some older poems from a variety of folks which I thought was so special that you, you did that it's not just about you, you really are bringing a lot of different voices into this which is, which is, I think a real testament to the community practice that you're in. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Thanks for noticing that yeah I was really that was really important to me. I mean, also like you said, poets love to write about the seasons, and in my research. That was a huge part of my research was just like experiencing all of these different writers voices from all different backgrounds and time periods, all talking about the seasons, and it just like reinforced a lot of what the book is and I appreciate you noticing that. That was a really important part for me to add. 

Jenna Robinson: Yeah, yeah, for sure. You're in relationship you are absorbing but you're also putting out like it's it's a cycle I love it. I love it. Thank you so much Jacqueline. 

Jacqueline Suskin: Thank you. 

Jenna Robinson: It's been wonderful really meaningful conversation and and really like an impetus to like be in practice, whatever that practices and I'm hearing about creativity, really being the focal point but any sort of practice in relationship to like our bodies and the land is crucial right now that's at a time where it's the world is asking us to be so separate from that so I appreciate you calling us back calling us back to that. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Thank you. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah. 


Jacqueline Suskin: Thank you everyone for being here too. 


Jenna Robinson: Yeah, yes. Thank you everyone.

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Izzy Angus, Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, Nikki Roda, and Pele Shalev. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

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