CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

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[Cheerful theme music begins] 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Over 18 million people of Asian descent live in the United States today. Many in the Asian American community are experiencing a renewed connection to their identity, inspiring them to radically reconsider the cultural frameworks that enabled their assimilation into American culture. As Asian Americans investigate the personal and societal effects of longstanding cultural narratives, their mental health becomes increasingly important, yet they are the racial group least likely to seek out mental health services. Through her work and in her latest book, Permission to Come Home, Taiwanese American clinical psychologist Jenny Wang confronts and destabilizes the stigma Asian Americans face in caring for their mental health. In this episode, Dr. Wang is joined by CIIS Associate Professor of Clinical Psychology and Director of the CIIS Psychological Services Center Lani Chow for a powerful conversation about the intersection between Asian American identity, mental health, and social justice. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on June 30th, 2022. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

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Lani Chow: Hi Jenny. [Jenny: Hi Lani. How are you?] I'm very well. How are you doing? [Jenny: I’m doing well.] Good, good. I'm really, really excited to have this conversation with you. I had the opportunity to read your book. I found it really interesting, both in content and in approach, and I was wanting to just launch in. But first, you and I had spoken about positioning ourselves, like identifying ourselves for those who are listening, so that they have a context of who we are a little bit and so that we can deepen our introduction to one another as well. [Jenny: Mhm. Absolutely.]  

So, I was saying to you that my family is originally from the south southern part of China, mainland China going back four generations on one side and three on the other and landed in Hawaii. And I am actually the generation raised on the mainland but have moved back to the islands as well with some of my cousins and siblings. So that's kind of where I'm located. How about you?  

Jenny Wang: Yeah. So, my family actually is from a southern part of China originally, but a long time ago because they moved to Taiwan. Many, many generations ago, almost so far back I don't even know how long ago they made that migration. [Lani: Yeah.] And so, you know my family, basically my parents are the only siblings who left Taiwan when they immigrated. I was two years old at the time. So, I kind of say I’m maybe 1.5 generation because I came here when I was two. [Lani: Yeah.] So very much have lived here for most of my life and we immigrated to New Jersey. And that's where primarily I was raised until we moved to Texas.  

Lani: Nice. So, we really represent parts of the diaspora, don't we? Asian Pacific Islander, Taiwanese, both originated in southern China. Yeah. Well as I was saying, I kind of want to just launch right in if that's okay with you? Yeah? [Jenny: Let’s do it.] Alright.  

So, the first thing that really stood out to me is the title of your book which is, includes the words permission and home and I was like okay we're on a journey here, right? We have permission and we have home. I wanted to- and literally every chapter of the book starts with the word permission. Why did you feel that was important?  

Jenny: Yeah, it's funny because I knew the title of this book before I even knew its true contents. And that was, it was kind of an idea that stuck with me because I think as Asian Americans, or even just Asian diaspora, there is because of our connections with our family, with our parents and culture. I had always felt that all my life there was a permission seeking. Can I do this? Who do I love? What career do I pick? Where do I live? And there are all these kinds of ways in which I oriented outward towards the people I loved, to seek permission for different aspects of mine.  

And yet, as I kind of journeyed for myself and then with my clients, there was almost this tandem feeling that I also needed to claim permission for myself [Lani: Internally.] And yes, internally. And then also in some ways externally because, you know, I think for many of us, at some point our wants and needs diverge perhaps from those expectations. And so then starting to claim permission over spaces of our lives, that maybe previously, we had not questioned.  

And then this idea of coming home, I really, I think it resonated with me because being Taiwanese American, having been raised here, I'm not really at home in Taiwan [Lani: Uh-huh.] I'm seen as too Western, too foreign, I speak with accented Mandarin. Right? They can tell right away that I'm from the United States. [Lani: Yeah.] And so, while I'm there, there's not a sense of home and even here in the United States, despite being raised here, despite being able to speak the language, being trained in education here, I very much don't necessarily feel at home either. And I think with the rise of Covid too it made it very apparent that that belonging or even acceptance was very conditional. [Lani: Yeah.] So I think this idea of coming home then almost had to be an idea that, almost we had to co-create for ourselves because perhaps home is not a place, a community, a person but maybe it is a condition of being that we need to move into. And so, I think that's where kind of the title of the book really the space it- I tried to kind of create there.  

Lani: Yeah, it's very powerful that kind of over and over, you know, there's this repetition of permission, permission, permission. It's such a powerful concept. It must have felt like this is really something I need people to get. This is something I need people to feel.  

Jenny: Yes, 100%. And I think in working with clients and this is what I love about the work that we do. We learn so much through our clients' growth and journey. And I came to realize that many of my Asian American clients, they needed to move to a place where they could give themselves permission for so many aspects of their lives. [Lani: Yeah.] And I think that theme kept coming up again and again in all different age ranges and all different identities that I was like, there's something here. [Lani: Yeah.] And I saw many, in many times, the transformational power, once someone was able to give themselves permission. Permission to love who they wanted to love, permission to pursue a career that they were really passionate about, permission to feel their emotions. [Lani: Yeah.] That really started to create these shifts that I think changes people's lives.  

Lani: I was going to save this comment or question for later, but it feels like a moment to ask it, but one of the things I've noticed in my practice is that often Asian clients will come in and for a long time there won't be words there. There's a lot of emotionality, there's often a lot of tearing or crying and, you know, we, we’re curious about what's happening, but there aren't words for that. I wonder. Yeah, please go ahead.  

Jenny: Yeah, you know I think it's funny because sometimes I will ask people what was the word that was said to you in your mother tongue and that almost creates a visceral effect in some of my clients maybe it was a harsh critical word that a parent had said to them or maybe it was a loving tender word or even their name in their native language.  

I think one, one of the things I wonder about in the lack of words is that sometimes our consolidation of memories and time and experiences are intertwined with language that is not accessible to us in our conscious memory anymore. You know, I was raised hearing Taiwanese spoken by my grandparents and parents and then moved to the United States and then started learning English. But Mandarin and Taiwanese were my first languages, [Lani: Right, right.] And so, I think the lack of words sometimes comes from right. I don't know the word anymore [Lani: Oh interesting.] because I’ve lost some of that native language. [Lani: Huh.] My mother tongue. [Lani: Yeah.]  

But I think another element when it's not related to language and all of that is we weren’t always taught the words. [Lani: Mhm, mhm. Yes.] I think about how my parents processed emotion. [Lani: Right.] It was very infrequently with words. [Lani: Yes.] So much through emotion or silence. [Lani: Yes, yes.]  

And so, I think that in so many ways, my hope with this book was to put some words, almost to create a scaffolding where people could now input their own words into their experiences. [Lani: Absolutely.] And now, finally be able to bring light to those experiences in a conscious sort of way because I feel like we feel them. [Lani: Yes.] In a bodily way, somatic way. But I think in the therapy room It is very much word dependent, language dependent, so it takes time for people to get there.  

Lani: Mhm, mhm. Oh, something I so appreciated about your book is the structure that you offered and literally calling them rest stops. You know. Like, let me, let me pause here. And feel what it is I'm feeling in response to the words I've been offered. At first, I was, I was a little taken aback and then I thought, oh no, this is actually, this makes it really accessible in all of the ways that you're talking about right now where we don't have words, or we don't have scaffolding for our experience.  

That's actually something I wanted to follow up on because one of the things that you're asking us to do in the Asian diaspora, in terms of mental health, is question our culture. And I actually wrote that, the question, question culture exclamation point. [Jenny laughs] Because right, we often feel in the Asian diaspora that culture is something that structures us and that we rely on those structures like scaffolding, I actually wrote that down as the question. So how complicated it is for us? How do we go about questioning culture?  

Jenny: And it's funny because I have friends who say, if my mom read your book [gasping sound] right, like all the things you're asking us to question. I don't know that they would approve, right? [Lani: Yeah, right.] And I think what I really try to do, and I don't know if I do this well in my book, but I really tried to hone into this idea that I'm not asking us to at by any means, disparage, reduce, see our culture from a deficit. That is not what I'm asking us to question. [Lani: Okay.] I'm actually asking us to question the different elements, the frames, the lenses that our culture offers us and to kind of evaluate how well that resonates and aligns with ourselves, right.  

And I think one easy example is, you know, Asian culture and it’s kind of original roots is pretty patriarchal, right. I always have a problem saying that word every syllable but [Lani: Yeah.] you know that so that is something where, you know, I've seen the effects of it on my mother's generation. [Lani: Yeah.] On my grandmother's generation. I've seen it manifest in my relationship with my father and what he expects from me being a daughter. And there have been times where I have felt the weight of it in a way that felt really stifling and at times limiting and I've had to kind of think to myself, okay, this is an element that comes from some cultural roots of my heritage, [Lani: Yes.] but how much do I allow that to restrict or open up spaces and ideas of what's available to me? And I'm not saying that because I think there's an element where there's that respect to even the older generation, that I think is so beautiful, part of Asian culture. [Lani: Yes.] But I also want us to say to what end? How far? What feels right when we apply these cultural elements, right? [Lani: Yeah.] And I think about within the Asian culture, there are different frameworks about, you know, what related to anti-Blackness in the Asian community, how it relates to LGBTQ right? There are very specific frames that would be considered consistent with the culture definitely, but does that resonate with who I am becoming? [Lani: Oh, nice question. Yeah.] And if it doesn't resonate, then how do I still honor the elements of my culture that I can pull from, and also allow myself to release from some elements that don't feel aligned?  

Lani: You're really naming a conflict that can be generational, it can be due to assimilation, it can be due to kind of the social changes, the awareness that we’re having, increasing awareness about the way that we’re socially structured and what I love is that it gives us an opportunity to navigate those things. They are not either or, or black and white, right? That's wonderful. You did this piece and I'm jumping around in my own questions, but I just loved this. You ask these questions and I'm just going to read them. What does knowing and expressing our emotions do? What impact does it have? How did, oh and this is my question to you. How did you come to those questions? How did you discover those questions in your own life or in your work with clients?  

Jenny: I often tell my kids that I'm a professional question asker, as my day job. [Lani: Yeah.] And I think that these often were questions that I had to ask myself, you know, and I think we were talking about our positionality in terms of, you know, our immigration story. And I came from parents who were very much, that first generation immigrants. So, I came from, you know, a family in which due to my astrological sign, my mom was pressured to give me up for adoption. And people will say what? Right? You're not even that old. That wasn't even that long ago, right? [Lani: Yeah.] And so, I think I watched, and it's interesting because now my mother has really also grown in her understanding of the frameworks that she's grown up in and watching her, having to navigate the in-between of raising an Asian American child, whilst living, between her own parents, who are still Taiwanese. They never immigrated. And so, she was that kind of link.  

And so, I think those questions came from observing her and her difficulties with emotions, her difficulties with understanding and appreciating the knowledge that came from her emotional life. Then also, then saying to myself, but what does that do for me if I follow in that same path? At what cost?  

So, I think a lot of those questions came from, even my own experiences, but then I think it helped me, then ask the questions to my clients because many also, I have many clients who, their parents came as refugees from Vietnam, right? [Lani: Yeah.] I have many clients who they are, maybe the second generation and so they're also in that space. And so, I think the questions I really wanted people to really pause and that's why we like created these boxes. [Lani: Yeah. Yeah.] Because I didn't want people to live and read this book up here. I wanted them to feel it inside them.  

Lani: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, as I was listening to you always thinking. Yeah. At what costs? At what cost is such an important question, because I think you probably have felt this personally, you've probably seen this in your office. What do you think are the costs? What do we, what are we risking? What are we giving up if we're not asking ourselves these questions? [phone rings in background] Sorry. 

Jenny: No, all good. I think there are many costs. I think that the costs fall in a few buckets, I guess one being identity and I think that's crucial because that informs how we see ourselves in the context of the world that we're in and it also informs how we see our world. Right. [Lani: Yeah.] I also think the cost is in what we can dream of. The opportunities we reach out for, right? [Lani: Interesting.] Because one of the things that I've noticed is there are a lot of my clients, especially if their parents are kind of that first generation. There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of fear embedded in things like taking risks, you know, switching jobs when you don't have one in hand. [Lani: Yes.] A lot of fear with uncertainty. [Lani: Yeah.] And yet I really do believe that uncertainty is the space in which innovation, creativity, exploration is also born. So, if we are not able to tolerate those very ambiguous spaces and the discomfort that triggers in us, [Lani: Yeah.] then we sometimes will do the safest thing. Stay in a job we hate. Stay in a relationship we know we’re mistreated in. [Lani: Yeah.] Continue to tolerate conditions, as people of color, that we know are not equitable.  

And I think that might have been a strategy that was effective for our parents because let's be honest. What they had accessible to them in terms of their rights, their access, privilege, resources were much more limited, [Lani: Definitely.] but I think, as this next generation we also have to say, you know, the fact that I'm speaking English without an accent is already a privilege. [Lani: Very much so.] And that gives me access to a little bit more leverage to be a little bit perhaps more risky or to dream a little bit bigger for ourselves.  

Lani: Yeah, yeah that's wonderful. I think really importantly what you're saying though, we have to build in ourselves tolerance for the discomfort that arises if we risk anything other than what's been structured or prescribed for us. Right? [Jenny: Absolutely.] And so, I wanted to ask you like, again, I feel like it's a wonderful ask, it's a big ask often within our communities, right? And should people expect that that's going to be easy or that they're going to feel regulated a lot of the time? How bad can that feel?  

Jenny: It can be so activating that it causes us to shut down to be honest. Right. I mean I think about many layers, right? Because we're not just Asian-American. We are women or we are you know XYZ identity that is not the dominant identity. [Lani: Right, right, right.] So, we're feeling uncomfortable, not just in our race or ethnicity, we're feeling uncomfortable in many spaces in our lives. And so absolutely not this work and that's why I kind of say in the book. This is why people often don't undertake the work because it creates so much emotional discomfort or upheaval in us. [Lani: Yes. Yeah.] And to be able to build tolerance for that. [Lani: Yeah.] I think sometimes it requires the support of a therapist or a mentor or a friend, right? Because I always say we can try to bolster our ability to show up in a certain way in our lives. But if we do that without the communal support. Without the psychological sensitivity we could end up re-traumatizing ourselves, right? [Lani: Yeah, yeah.]  

And what I've noticed in the kind of, in the aftermath and the continuation of the anti-Asian hate is a lot of Asian Americans are saying, I want to take up space. I want to speak my truth. I want to share my story. [Lani: Right.] And they'll do it in spaces that are not safe. Like the workplace. [Lani: Uh-huh.] or they'll do it with friends who haven't done their own work in terms of understanding social and racial justice. [Lani: Right, right.] And guess what? Then they get the response and that's terrifying when you have finally worked up the courage [Lani: Yeah.] to say something. So, I think that the discomfort is absolutely. I mean, I think if you're going to undertake this, you have to accept there will be discomfort, but I always say it's like a muscle, right? You practice it today a little bit and [Lani: Yeah.] it gets a little bit easier tomorrow. [Lani: Yeah.] And then you wake up and you realize you've been on this journey and those muscles are stronger now and you can carry it easier. [Lani: Yeah, yeah.] Not to say that the weight necessarily lightens, sometimes it does but you actually find that you are much more resilient than you thought you could be.  

Lani: That's really helpful. And I often use metaphors of learning different sports because, right? It's that somatic kind of experience. When you're learning a new activity, a new sport, your body doesn't know how to do it. It's really uncomfortable, you're really awkward. You become very sore. Maybe you develop blisters like all kinds of things can and do happen and you have to practice and you have to learn and you have to develop right, body memory and skill and it may not be the most accessible metaphor, but at just what, it's, what I associated to you when you were saying that and it takes time, you don't become good at something overnight.  

Jenny: Yes, and I'm curious for you. Do you ever have clients who kind of say like, well, can't you just teach me like, how not to feel? [Lani laughs] Like can you teach me how to be unfazed by the world? [Lani: Yes.] Because that would reduce my stress. [Lani: Yeah.] And like and I'm always like, huh, I could see how that would make sense as a possible solution. [Lani: Yeah.] But if you're going to live in the world amongst people, [Lani: Yeah.] and structures, you're going to have some type of friction at some point. And our goal is not to make you numb to it [Lani: Right.] because that's actually dangerous. [Lani: Exactly. Yes, right.] Right.  

Lani: Yes, I have had, I have had clients from the Asian diaspora, literally come in and say, I'm having these feelings, this specific set of feelings. Can you make them stop? [Jenny: Yes.] That's a really, really tough one.  

Can you say a little bit more about, like how you came to decide that you wanted, not only did you want to take this journey yourself, Like, it sounds like through observing what was happening around you and your family in your generation, but how you decided you wanted to take that further, become a psychologist? Like really, you know, champion and kind of spread spread this, this knowledge, this these structures and like, offer these words to people.  

Jenny: Well, I would say that when I went to college, I was supposed to become an accountant. [Lani: Now you're seeing here, comes the Asian background right here, right? I'm supposed to be an MD by the way. Yes.] Aren't we all right? [Lani: Yes!] [both laughing] Like that was the first choice. [Lani: Yeah, I think we've moved on to engineer now. But yes.]  

Yes, so you know, I think growing up I honestly had no idea people did this as a profession. And, you know, I think when I went to college, and I went to UT Austin. So, it's a large public university. I was doing what I thought was the kind of like fast track to getting a job. That was the purpose of college. right? [Lani: Right. That's right.] And then I realized the idea of sitting behind a computer and working with Excel spreadsheets and doing numbers for the rest of my life felt really draining right to envision that.  

And so, what's interesting is all along my parents knew that I was not happy, and they were aware. And yet, they always said, what do you want to do instead? And I never had an answer. There was never anything that sparked my interest enough that I was going to essentially derail from my business degree, and then I finally took psych 101, out of kind of the encouragement of a friend, now my husband, [Lani laughs] so kind of, and he said he was a liberal arts major and basically said, you need to take this psychology course. This professor is amazing and it really, I mean this class, I know psych 101, the most basic psychology class that everyone falls in love with as an undergrad, right? And it changed my framework of what was possible. So, for the first time I was seeing psychology professors, I was seeing researchers, I was seeing people in clinical work.  

And so literally, I was in my junior year first semester. Changed all my coursework dropped out of a 5-year accounting program, changed all my coursework to basically take all my psychology pre-reqs in the last two years of college. Basically, by that point I was at a finance degree because I was on like a masters track so I had a degree. My parents were happy [Lani: Nice.] but I kind of derailed and started taking all these psych courses and it was the most fun I have ever had in any education. And it was almost this like fire was lit under me.  

And I shared the story in the book where, when I was applying to graduate school. [Lani: Yeah.] this, you know, professor, very well-known, very famous, I'm not going to say his name, but he basically said, you're not getting into PhD programs. This is not happening for you. You need to get a masters. You are a non-traditional student. You come from a business background. Even though I had taken all the prerequisite courses, I essentially was at a double major in psychology. [Lani: Yeah.] And I think it was him, we have him to thank. It was him who lit a fire under me and said, oh, I'm going to prove you so wrong, and I'm only going to apply to PhD programs and I'm going to get into something. And I think there's a part of me now that says, had I been a white cisgender male student, would he have ever said that to me? And I think that was what kind of said to me. There's something here, and in all of my undergraduate education, there was not one Asian American graduate student that I had met, assistant, adjunct, associate, or full professor who is Asian-American. [Lani: Yeah.] And this is in Texas, we have a lot of Asians here. [Lani: Yeah. Yeah.] So, I think there is something there. And it was almost this, like, I don't know. It lit a flame.  

And then I went to graduate school and that's a whole ‘nother space right there, we can talk more about. [Lani: Yeah.] But that was kind of my journey of really finding that psychology was something that resonated with really, who I was as a person, which is somebody who is oriented towards people and relationships. And I often say that as a child of immigrants, first, gen, you know, first 1.5 generation eldest daughter. I learned how to be a therapist, I think, in my earliest stages simply because I was a therapist for my mom, and my dad, right. And I think a lot of people understand those themes as well.  

Lani: Yeah, yeah. So, you not only already sort of internally had a way of giving yourself permission because you could feel that this was something that lit something in you. You could experience that this was actually something that you liked as opposed to something you were doing out of obligation. Right, there’s a tremendous difference in those feelings, which you go into in the book, you can feel when it's right and you have to pay attention to that, and there was both external permission, right? Your husband said, go take this class Jenny, you're like, okay. But also, your professor who tried to challenge you and say, no, not you, not you Jenny Wang, you don't have permission yet. So, it's going to be like that. The journey is going to be like that. [Jenny: Yeah] Alright. So, I wrote this section because we're on this topic and literally, I titled it, Safe Spaces, White Spaces, Grad School, Being a Psychotherapist. So, here's the question.  

Have you been able to find professional homes within our discipline? And in your acknowledgements, stay with me, in acknowledgements, you appreciate your colleagues, teachers, supervisors, mentors and all of them have non-Asian sounding names. And then in your appreciations, you, you name your hype team and your hype team all sound Asian to me. So, I thought I'm going to ask her about that because there's something there.  

Jenny: Yes. You know, what’s funny is I think growing up in New Jersey where there was not a predominant Asian Community, it's funny I was very used to being in white spaces under the condition of assimilation. [Lani: Yes.] That was what I knew, that was what I thought was required of me in those spaces and so I know how to code switch, which many of us know. [Lani: Yeah, right.] And it became almost like a skill set that I could turn on and off when I needed to.  

And what's interesting is that when I went to graduate school, we actually had, so our cohort was of 8 and we had, I want to say, we had four females at the time and four male students in our cohort. But I had a Filipino-American classmate, I had an African-American classmate. I had a Latin-X classmate. It was one of the most diverse in several spaces, which was really unusual, [Lani: Yeah.] honestly. Because if you look back to earlier cohorts, they were predominantly white at the very least and mostly female honestly at the time. And so, I think that when I think about my academic settings to be honest, most of my supervisors were white and that was not something that I had control over perhaps. And I found that even in that, there were spaces that they offered that were safe and I was super grateful for that. [Lani: Yeah.] But there were also spaces that I didn't realize at the time were unsafe. And after leaving graduate school, I realized they were unsafe. [Lani: Huh.] After leaving the training because in a way, I felt like I had fashioned myself to ignore the lack of safety [Lani: Yes.] almost as a code switching [Lani: Yeah.] coping mechanism. [Lani: Sure.] So, when I talk about mentors and, you know, individuals who had helped me as supervisors or trainees and mentor or trainers and mentors, they did reflect a very white dominant space and that's academia right? That is why academics can be quite harmful to people of color.  

And then when I think about my hype team, it's interesting because each of those people, I kind of have, I'm the type of person who picks up like one or two really good friends each stage of life. [Lani: Yeah.] And so, some of them were from my childhood where I went to at the time, a predominantly Chinese American church and so there were a couple friends that came from that but they didn't go to my school which is still predominantly white. So, it's almost like there were pockets in which there were individuals that I resonated with, you know, and then I went to UT Austin, which has a large Asian American population. So, I picked up a couple more kind of friends there that, you know, we're also Asian-American. But I say all this to kind of say that in many phases of my life, I would say before I turned maybe 30, 35. I almost was really good at compartmentalizing spaces. [Lani: Yeah, yeah.] These are places where, you know, I can fully be me, and my Asian-American identity, and then spaces where I needed to be kind of like the more American Jenny, right? [Lani: Right, right.] And I think it's only come into this decade of my life in my 30s, almost 40s where I'm now much more willing to integrate those spaces. Even in my mind, to draw from those spaces. [Lani: Yeah.] And to cultivate, like you said, those professional safe places because they don't come to you by accident.  

And so, I've, you know, I have a consultation kind of like group that I meet with all female psychologists. Many of us mothers, you know. [Lani: Yeah.] And it's been such an amazing safe space and we come from a lot of different backgrounds. [Lani: Yeah.] And that was a very intentional act because I'm in private practice, so it can be so isolating, right? [Lani: Yeah, yeah.] in your own practice. So, I guess all this to say that, you know, I think over my life, I've had kind of these pockets and spaces and at the time it felt like it was normal to keep them separate. And now I'm in a place where I'm like actually the integration of all of them actually feels more authentic to my experience. 

Lani: Yeah, do you think that's developmental? Like in terms of your own personal and professional development? Do you think it's like, um…like I also am in a very intentionally constructed consultation group that is multiracial, right? And we actually really like each other. So, it feels very safe, and we can take a lot of risks and it is also the place that I was really able to integrate my Asianess, my non-whiteness and my psychologist-ness, like that's the safe place for it to come together and begin to spread professionally. So, you're nodding yes, that you feel like it's developmental, that it's something we have to come to and intentionally make.  

Jenny: I think that yes to answer your question, I do believe it's developmental because I do believe that ethnic or racial identity is developmental in nature as well. [Lani: Okay. Okay.] So, I think that and I think Dr. Gene Kim, you know, it was her, I think dissertation when she first kind of put together that model and not everybody fits and resonates with that model. But it's this idea that you know I think had, I always wondered this, had I grown up in a predominantly Asian enclave. [Lani: Yeah.] Maybe in California. [Lani: Yeah.] Or maybe in different parts of the coasts, right? I don't know that my evolution would have had this path at all, [Lani: Right.] honestly. [Lani: Probably not.]  

And so, I think that those developmental trajectories take on really different shapes, based on the context of the set points that you’re in. [Lani: Yeah.] And I kind of my, I feel like my kids are this grand experiment now, right? Because we talk about our Asianness a lot, and we talk about how important these rituals, these ideas, our identity. We do that in such a deliberate way that my son will be like, did you notice in Star Wars or Star Trek that these people were Black and these people were Asian and these people were white? [Lani: Nice] and he’s six, right? [Lani: Wow. So great.] I think that, in that I didn't have the language for so many years of my life, [Lani: right] That, that integration I don't think would have happened without the growth and the learning that I needed to catch up on. But I have friends who grew up in California and they're like, oh I've always been extremely proud of my Asianess right? [Lani: Yeah.] And I’m like I wish I had that. [Lani: Yeah.] So, I think everybody's journey is different but I think you're absolutely right there is a journey in that sphere.  

Lani: Yeah, I think I just wanted to highlight maybe because you know, we're doing this conversation at CIIS, and we train a lot of therapists. I wanted to highlight that what, you know what, you said that you can't expect it. It's not going to be there for you, that it's something that you have to make quite intentionally sometimes. [Lani: Absolutely.]  

Yeah, I wanted to switch gears a little bit. I wanted to talk about this kind of current moment in the United States. It's a rather difficult moment. What the pandemic has exposed, our politics over the last several years, many years, all the violence that's been happening in many communities and with regard to the Asian diaspora, you write about the dangers of being silent and about invisibilization. I really wanted to talk about that because I found that very important and very powerful. And, you know, you and I were talking a little bit about silence. So, what do you see the dangers of silence for our communities to be?  

Jenny: I often kind of share with clients that silence is the space where shame breeds. And in particular, with mental health, right? And I remember stories as a child where somebody, you know, a family would have a child struggling with something. We didn't know the name of it, didn't know what it was, but we knew it wasn't physical. And then, they suddenly, this child would be sent back to Taiwan. [Lani: Oh gosh.] to be raised by other families. And that was really I don't know, it was [Lani: Terrifying.] scary. Yes. right. And so, this idea that like my goodness, something like that would cause parents, and I'm not judging those parents by any means. [Lani: Sure, sure.] They did what they could, or they thought was the right thing because they didn't have resources here back then in the United States that were necessarily that helpful, but this idea that like we're not going to talk about it, it's going to disappear. We're going to make it disappear and that is how we handled this realm, right of human experience, right?  

And so, silence. I think when we are silent, it allows things like addiction, abuse, mental health struggle, just poor communication and skills building. Those things really, then fly under the radar. They’re never addressed. And I think in Asian culture and I kind of joke with my clients about this. Like, we kind of speak in these like low-context forms of communication. It's almost like I want something, but I'm not really going to tell you what I want, I'm going to dance around it, right? [Lani: Yeah.] Whereas I think like, you know, some other cultures, it's much more direct. Like these are my needs. [Lani: Yeah.] I’m going to tell you my needs. [Lani: I might shout it. Yeah.] Yeah.  

So, I think that adds to, right, this kind of like the silencing because then we don't speak things in a clear way. And then what the silence does, is it breeds assumptions and interpretations of people and situations. And we start to feed these almost unchecked or unchallenged stories, about our families, about ourselves, about the expectations. And so, I think that mental health in the context of silence is extremely dangerous.  

And then we bring it to the greater social context, right? As Asian-Americans in the model minority myth, [Lani: Right.] and the silence, or the caricature of silence around our people, [Lani: Right.] and that only fuels this ability to mistreat someone because they may not speak up. They may not self-advocate. [Lani: Yeah.] So, there's a lot there that I think we can unpack, but I think it's dangerous on an individual [Lani: Yes.] and community level. [Lani: Yes.] And then a social level as well.  

Lani: Yeah. Yeah, you wrote this sentence and I just want to read it back to you because I just love it. You say, “when I name the harm that is directed at me, I can shield and protect against it without allowing it to damage my sense of self.” This is exactly what you're talking about, you have to name it. You have to say it. You have to speak it. [Jenny: Yeah.] That's lovely.  

So literally this week, this last week we're grappling with the decisions of our Supreme Court having to do with the rights of women we’re warned that affirmative action might be next. That same-sex marriage might be next. These kinds of decisions that are currently affirmed through law or have historically been affirmed through law are under attack. It's a difficult, difficult time for many of us.  

And I was thinking about this when I was reading your words on navigating systems and structures. I so appreciate it, this part of your book. You write that systems and structures that attack, no, I'm sorry. I was encouraged by what you said about fighting racialized, gendered and other forms of hate that we face in the world and that we internalize those if we don't fight them. So how do we continue to fight hate? You're speaking to this a little bit, but I want to say, like what's the importance of fighting hate? We know we need to use our voice, but this is taking it even further, right? There are these forces in the world that seem legitimized that foment hate and we need to do something. We need to fight back externally and internally.  

Jenny: And I'm like, I'm processing like just everything that I think all of us are carrying. And, and I'll be honest, it's been hard to work this week. [Lani: Yeah.] Because my clients are terrified and, and as much as I'm like, you know, you want to be a stabilizing hopeful source for your clients. [Lani: Yes.] You also want to be an honest source. And so, I remember this week just being like, I wish I could say that I feel hopeful still, right? [Lani: Yeah, yeah.] But I feel very discouraged too. [Lani: Yeah.] I feel that along with you.  

And so, I guess, when I think about, right, this idea of fighting hate, I think it begins with me, with even myself identifying the sources of hate that I unknowingly hold. Because if I can't see how I may inadvertently hold [Lani: Yeah.] biases and assumptions. [Lani: Absolutely.] Then how could I call out hate in someone else. [Lani: Yes, right, right.] And I think on a clinical level, but as on a human being level. [Lani: Yeah.] I think that's where I start. And that feels tangible for me. [Lani: Yeah, right. Yeah.] Because if I and, of course, I'm very, you know, I very much support us being mobilized in an exterior way,  [Lani: sure.] I think it is in tandem but I think the hardest part is that hate is about protecting the ego, right? This is the identity that I hold and so I don't, I can't hold space for another identity to me, that's hate. Right? [Lani: Yeah, right. Yeah.]  

And so, if I can work on my ego, can I work towards understanding and humbling myself because I personally think humility is the way to combat hate. And so, we fight hate, not because it's simply for other people, because that has almost like a saviorism aspect to it. [Lani: Yeah.] I combat hate because it's also for me. [Lani: Right. Right. Don't just call it out in the world, call it out in myself.] Yes. [Lani: Or do both.] Yes. And to purge the insidious training that I've received my whole life. [Lani: Absolutely. Yes.] About who and what, and how things should be right? [Lani: Yeah, yeah.]  

So, I think sometimes like, you know, I think about like cross-community coalition building and it's, those are really tender and often complex spaces to exist in. [Lani: For sure. Yes.] Because there's so much pain there and I think I have to say like until I've confronted my pain. How can I even begin to hold space for someone else? [Lani: So agree with you. Yeah. Yeah.] So, I think as a community, we have to start digging out even our own racial trauma. [Lani: Yes. Yes.] Because if I'm slowly empowered and freed from it, [Lani: Yeah] then I can hold space for people and not say, but what about me? Right? [Lani: Right.] And the whole like comparative suffering piece that I think gets in the way of combating hate.  

Lani: It's where things collapse often, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's so wonderful. I want to nerd out with you for just one minute. [Jenny laughs] Okay. Alright. Okay. So, the reason I say nerd out is because I was looking at your resources and references, right? Which is what we do if we have like done research. And you in the resources, you mentioned some excellent and familiar authors. Resmaa Menakem, Cathy Park Hong, the papers by Hong and Ng. And then in your references, there are all these articles from neuroscience. And I was like, wait, where was all of that in the book? 

Jenny: [laughing] Yes. And you know, some of them, a lot of them were in the emotions chapter. [Lani: Okay. Right.] Talking about how like emotions affect attention and focus and memory and things like that. Yeah. And, you know, and because there weren't a ton of references because the book is very much a narrative, conversational style, 

Lani: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jenny: So, we didn't cite them specifically and that was not- my editor decided to do that. But, yes, you know, I think that was where a lot of those references came from. They were really trying to make the case that your emotions affect so many facets of your perception, your memory, your attentional focus, and all of that. 

Lani: Yeah, no. I wanted to ask that because I also think wanted to emphasize that, right. This isn't this isn't an intellectual exercise. This isn't something we're just talking about; this is something that affects all parts of us and affects them deeply. And then, of course, affects all of our relationships. 

Jenny: Absolutely, yeah. 

Lani: Yeah. Thank you for explaining that I was, I was taken aback for a moment about your references. Yeah, that's great. That's great. You know, I am not sure that we should get into any more of my big questions. I was wondering if there were some- anything that got stirred for you, in our conversation, that you wanted to come back to, or wanted to bring up, or an association or memory that you had that felt relevant. 

Jenny: Yeah. You know I feel like our conversation has almost like slowly washed over me as we're talking, you know, and I feel like you hold space so tenderly, it's- clearly you are clinician. [Lani laughs] But I think you know I think what really struck me was how you've mentioned being you know fourth generation immigrant [Lani: Yeah.] but these themes seem to still you could see them. [Lani: Absolutely. Yes.] You can feel them. And so, I kind of have a question for you. [Lani: Sure.] What was that like, you know, reading a book from my vantage point of being closer to that immigration, migration story. [Lani: Yeah.] But then seeing this and how much resonance did it offer you? 

Lani: Well, my partner and I have a joke because I always thought 100% meant everything. But I found out that there's something called 1000%. Stunningly, this is a question I often have for myself. You know, being in, well, not exactly a US citizen for all those generations. But being born outside of China, how much would it resonate for me? And I have to tell you completely, absolutely, 100%, 1000%. It resonated for me, my journey has been very similar to yours in the sense of needing to discover the freedom within myself, the tolerance within myself. You know, the capacities within myself, to be able to make choices that respected and relied on my culture, but also fore-fronted my feelings, my thoughts, my needs, and who I wanted to be in the world so, absolutely, or resonated completely. Yeah, I'm glad you asked. 

Jenny: Yeah. I'm always curious, right. Because I think I put in the introduction, like this is written from my singular observation, right, of my life and my clinical work. And so, there are so many stories and I hope there are so many more books to come about those differences and nuances. So, I think in writing the book, there was almost a fear in me, like what if it doesn't really resonate beyond like my generation, right? [Lani: Yeah.] And being 1.5 generation, you know what if it doesn't resonate across many, you know, many evolutions. So, it's really neat to hear that the themes did strike. 

Lani: Yeah, I don't think you need to be concerned about that. You know, I'm curious because I know you're active on social media or in the social- see, I'm very old. So, I'm going to call it, you know, like online. You're very active online. [Jenny: You’re very wise.] Yeah. [both laugh] And I'm wondering if you're finding that resonance, you know, in a really widespread way among the diaspora. Like, you know, you and I are both predominantly Chinese in origin, but like among other Asian groups, for instance. 

Jenny: Yeah, I think of the feedback that I've received,  people have shared that it's across ethnic lines, right? So Japanese-American, Korean-American, Vietnamese-American, it seems to have resonances there. And then also people outside of the United States have said, I bought your book in Australia and I've grown up there. I bought your book and I'm from the UK. Or I'm from the Netherlands. And so I think that there's something about right, this idea of migration and displacement that I think the stories and the ideas do resonate, and they manifest in the ways that I think, you know, it's almost like the context is different, but perhaps the themes are similar. So that's been really neat to see, you know. [Lani: Yeah.] People who didn't grow up in United States. And so sometimes some of the historical kind of like things, perhaps, they're not as like direct, but they still say, you know, these are similar or ideas and frames in which I've had to question myself. 

Lani: That must be wonderful for you to know how deeply it's resonating in many, many places and across generations. 

Jenny: For sure. It's- I feel like that's the gift that people are now offering me is like being able to say like, in many ways this book is how I'm being seen as well, right. It's like I see my community and in turn they're seeing me, and I think it's such a like bi-directional gift. 

Lani: That's wonderful. Yeah, okay. Maybe last question because we're running out of time, but you offer so many practical applications. And exercises and ways that people can do their work while they're reading your book. I wonder if you have suggestions, like someone has read the book and they're like, okay Dr. Jenny Wang, this has been great. I want to do more. I want to go deeper. I want to expand on what, what I've discovered, what, what suggestions would you have?  

Jenny: Yeah, I would say start with people in your life who you could dialogue with. You know people have started book clubs. My favorite part is when parents, people have brought their parents to my book signings. [Lani: Oh fantastic. Yeah.] I’m like, I feel like so warm and fuzzy right. And I think people said like I'm reading it with my parents with my siblings. And I think that, you know, what's really powerful is that our stories, as a family constellation, we only see it from our vantage point. [Lani: Right.] So, when we go back and talk about it with our siblings and our parents, and all these other kind of people, it helps create a more fuller picture of that experience.  

And so, I think my hope is that, you know, people will pick up this book at difference seasons of life and maybe look up certain chapters and kind of meditate on those ideas or and kind of go back and you know, it's almost like hopefully a reference as well as like a read-through kind of experience. But I think with the rest stops with all the exercises I wanted really people to not read it and then be like okay I know the content, right? [Lani: Yeah, yeah.] But like to really almost like metabolize it, chew through it and question it even. Even say, does this theme really make sense to me? And if not, you know, what else does? How could I frame it, you know. [Lani: Yeah. Yeah.] So, I think that's the hope. It's almost that people will like highlight it and cross out and strike through and mark through it, like just really kind of like chew into it, almost in a way.  

Lani: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you imagined this, when you wrote it, but I can imagine going back to some of the, you know, the inquiries, the rest stops, the exercises repeatedly over and over, you know, again to kind of exercise those muscles to really, you know, use them as meditations or exercises into the future. I think that could be incredibly helpful.  

Well Dr. Jenny Wang, it looks like we’re at about that time and I just want to appreciate you so much for sitting down to write this book, for taking the risks in your, to tell your own personal journey, and include so much of yourself in the narrative. You know, as a fellow Asian American, it's a very risky thing to do, but it models as we were talking about it models, the work that you're asking us to do to have done that and offer it for us as long as the exercises that you lead us through and it's been such a delight to get to know you a little bit and speak with you. Is there anything you'd like to say in closing? 

Jenny: Well, first of all, thank you for having this conversation with me. Like I really just felt such tender and gentle guiding through this whole conversation. So, I'm so grateful for being able to share kind of this time with you. And I want to say to our community, I'm so proud of us. I'm just like I get emotional thinking about what it took for each of us to get to this point today. [Lani: Yeah.] And I'm just so proud of where we've come from and where we're going. And I cannot wait to see what our community is going to do going forward.  

Lani: Wonderful, wonderful. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Izzy Angus, Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, and Nikki Roda. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  

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