CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

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This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 
 
Despite the undeniable fact that Indigenous communities are among the most affected by climate devastation, Indigenous science is very rarely found in mainstream environmental policy or discourse. Environmental scientist, advocate, and author Jessica Hernandez introduces and contextualizes Indigenous environmental knowledge and proposes a vision of land stewardship that heals rather than displaces and generates rather than destroys. In this episode, Dr. Hernandez is joined by Indigenous scholar and activist Melissa Nelson in a conversation exploring her latest book, Fresh Banana Leaves, and how to stop the eco-colonialism ravaging Indigenous lands to restore our relationship with the Earth to one of harmony and respect. 

 
This episode was recorded during a live online event on February 10th, 2022. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

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Melissa Nelson: Good evening, everybody. Thank you so much for coming out on this lovely night to hear this conversation and celebrate, really the work of Dr. Jessica Hernandez and her extraordinary new book. So, I am so happy to be speaking with you this evening from the ancestral lands of the Salt River Valley of Phoenix, Arizona, the traditional homelands of the Akimel O’otham and Piipaash peoples of the Maricopa Indian Community. I honor their ancestors, their contemporary communities, their sovereign nation, and their future generations. So, Jessica, I am just so happy to be here with you, if you’d like to introduce yourself further or share with us where you're at tonight.  

Jessica Hernandez: My name is Jessica Hernandez, and I'm calling from the ancestral lands of the Duwamish peoples, also known as Seattle named after Chief Seattle. I also want to ask for permission from any elders who are present here today to be able to speak in front of them. Thank you for hosting this conversation, and I'm excited to also be in company and share this virtual space with you.  

Melissa: Aw, wonderful. Well, I’ve just been devouring your book and you can't really see it, but it's just filled with Post-it notes, and questions and comments. And I just really, first of all, thank you for articulating so many profound important concepts of our time in such a succinct and really easy and… not easy to read because some of the concepts are complex, but anyone can pick it up and read it and understand it. And that's really important as Indigenous scientists and scholars, to make things legible and understandable by anyone. And I'd like to hear a little bit more for our listeners who are not familiar with the Indigenous peoples that you come from, the Zapotec and the Maya Cho’orti’. I'm sorry, I'm not sure how to say the second word, the Maya Ch’orti’. And I loved learning about, you know, your mother's people and your father's people. And again, those of us in North America may not be as familiar with the Indigenous peoples of Mesoamerica, so you can share a little bit about those rich heritages, that would be lovely.  

Jessica: Yes, thank you for your questions. So, the Maya Ch’orti’ people, we have a strong lineage that thanks to our ancestors, who built a great pyramids. Oftentimes when we hear people talk about the Mayan cultures, they kind of talk about us in the past tense because, you know, there is this misconception that the Mayan civilization actually collapsed, but that's not the case. It's just that our people were displaced in different [areas] throughout South Mexico, all-the-way through Central America.  

So, the Maya Ch’orti’ people, our nation, we're divided by three borders. The borders of El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. And through my paternal side, we come from the El Salvador side of the Maya Ch’orti’ nation. And unfortunately, during the 1980s, starting from the 1960 and it ended in the 1990s, we experienced a genocide that was coined as the Central American Civil War. And the United Nations has called that and labeled that a genocide, but, you know, it's something that people still dismiss from those conversations. So, a lot of our people were displaced from our homelands and, you know, eventually they made it to Indigenous lands in the United States or Canada.  

And through my father's displacement, he was able to meet my mother in her Oaxacan Pueblo, the Zapotec nation, which is closer to the coast. And the Zapotec people, we still hold a matriarchal society. We have a third gender known as the muxe, who you know are born, you know, biologically male, but they also embodied the feminine soul. And you know, there is constant battles to ensure that we can keep our matriarchal society and also our third gender because, you know, as we all know colonialism, which introduced patriarchy and also homophobia, transphobia, continues to try to infiltrate itself into our nation.  

Melissa: Mhmm. Oh, thank you so much for sharing about that, that's wonderful to hear. And to be descendants of the people who made those incredible pyramids. I love how you talked about even modern physics can't really figure out how, you know, the wisdom, and the brilliance, and the technology of your ancestral knowledge to build such extraordinary civilizations. So today, are you still very connected to some of those people? Or has it been very challenging due to displacement, and war, and diaspora?  

Jessica: Yeah, we’re still connected because, unfortunately, my parents were the only ones displaced and that happens because my father was the eldest in his family. And my mother, you know, she usually none of her family is displaced. So, we still have like a close connection to home, but I do notice that, you know, my Maya Ch’orti’ environments still hold onto the trauma that my dad carries, especially when you know, there was a genocide that he unfortunately had to experience as a child. So I think that I see how my mom carries her relationships when we go back to her lands versus how my father carries his relationships with the environment when we got back to his land because, you know, he becomes more quiet. He's a little bit more, you know, kind of like closed off and you know, it's something that I have experienced. So, yes, we still hold on to those relationships, but obviously they are different based on, you know, the trauma that our environments carry in that sense.  

Melissa: Of course, and I want to ask you a bit more about historical trauma, but later in the conversation. I think the way you address it is really powerful in the book. And I know that you call yourself unabashedly, and unapologetically an Indigenous scientist, which I love and you really emboldened me. I have science degrees, and I still carried some of that, like you said, shame. Not shame, but embarrassment, or concern that ‘oh, I'm not a real scientist’ because I don't do statistical analysis or all this quantitative data crunching that we think of with, you know, physicists or mathematicians or even ecologists who do a lot of modeling now and a lot of quantitative work. So, I want to hear you share what it means to you to be a proud unapologetic Indigenous scientist, and how that differs or is similar to some of the identities of the western scientists that you work with.  

Jessica: Yes, I think it's, it’s an experience that we both share, right. That we were, you know, trained educationally in the western sciences. And I think that, you know, oftentimes when we talk about our Indigenous knowledge systems, people in the environmental discourse and environmental sciences refer to it as traditional ecological knowledge, and there are people in our communities who still use that term. But personally, I prefer to use Indigenous science just because scientists tend to kind of fixate themselves on the traditional aspect, and they continue to speak about our people in the past tense, while forgetting that our knowledges are currently adapting. Especially due to climate change impacts, especially to the displacement that, you know, the majority of Indigenous peoples we had to face. Whether it was internal, you know, within the borders or externally [Melissa: That’s right] outside of the borders.  

And I think that being trained in those Western sciences has allowed me to understand that. The knowledges that we are holding, and still continue to hold as Indigenous peoples are very similar to the sciences because they adapt. We have years of observations that don't necessarily translate to that numerical data that you were mentioning, the statistics, but it's knowledge that can help heal our planet. And we have also seen how a lot of our Indigenous science has also been co-opted by, you know, scientists. Great example that I like to give is permaculture, right. That that was science from the aborigine people in Australia that, you know, Bill Mollison, if that's his name, I don’t remember [Melissa: Yes, yes.], he coined it as permaculture, and he is considered… [Melissa: Popularized it!] Yes! So, I think that, you know, for me, I see it more as a science, but not to negate that, you know, there are people in our communities who refer to it as Indigenous knowledge or traditional ecological knowledge. But just being trained or having that scientific lens allows me to realize that it's a science in itself as well.  

Melissa: Yes. Absolutely. No, I completely agree. And, you know, I've been very much inspired by the work of Greg Cajete, which I'm sure you have too. And his great book Native Science really outlines we cover almost everything in the scientific method, except that ongoing validation, even though we validate it in our way. It's not validated in the Western Eurocentric way of validating knowledge, but our knowledge is validated every time, you know, we go in and gather foods in the way that we have, or hunted Buffalo the way that our ancestors did. Or for you, gathered, you know, grew corn, and took care of the Milpas. So that's a confirmation and a validation of our knowledge. Every time we have a new generation of people to continue to have that relationship with our food. Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate that.  

And one of the biggest distinctions that Cajete makes about Western science and Indigenous science is what he calls ‘the metaphoric mind’ and that Western science is so based on the rational mind, or the logical mind, and really dismisses dreams, and stories, and language, and poetry, and dance, and chanting, and all those things that are considered culture. And so, the title of your book Fresh Banana Leaves is certainly a metaphor. I mean, it's a real powerful story of your father's survivance. But it's more than that too, and throughout the book you weave in stories about the banana tree, and how it's been a survival plant. And yet, It's not native. And so, you grapple with that relationship with that beautiful plant. And if you could just unpack that a little bit for our readers, I think that would be really great.  

Jessica: Yeah, thank you for that question. And I think that, you know, it's important to acknowledge that, you know, like you mentioned banana trees are not native to Central America, but they were introduced during the theft of our Indigenous lands. When our Indigenous lands were sold in multitudes of acres through land grabs to these international agricultural corporations that introduced the monoculture that we see in the form of plantation. So, bananas was one of the crops that was introduced during that process where, you know, our lands were commodified to export, especially outside of our lands. And I think that through banana trees, they have become a staple in our foods. Like, when we make our tamales, we consume a lot of platanos and it's like become our traditional foods for many of us. And I think that why I decided to name a Fresh Banana Leaves, is just based on the story that my father kind of shared with me, where the teaching is that nature protects you as long as you protect nature.  

So, during that story, you’d have to go back to when he was recruited. He was 11 years old when he was recruited by the death squads. Not necessarily the death squads, but the death squads came to his cantón, his little pueblo, and they burned down his home because they couldn't find him. They had come and attempted to kind of forcefully to recruit him to the death squads, which is the army side of the rebellion, and he was so angry that the death squads actually burned down his home. Luckily, his parents. I mean, his mom and his siblings were not there because his father had passed by then. So, he went to the, you know, the lands, the lands, to find the guerilla. So, he joined the guerilla because I think that during the Central American Civil War, because we had lost a lot of our men, they started recruiting children as young as 11.  

So, he recalls how three years passed and he was receiving his training and was forced to fight in the war. So, at the age of 14, during that time his encampment, the guerilla encampment, was bombarded and he recalls seeking refuge on a banana tree. And this banana tree was a tree that he used to climb. He used to play with. It was his way of escaping his reality, as a child going through those hard times and through, you know, when that- when he saw that attack, he went under this banana tree and he saw how when the bomb drop, instead of the bomb igniting, the banana leaves kind of wrapped it in a way that prevented it from igniting. You know, many people can say “oh, it was just a bomb that was malfunctioned, that wasn't created correctly.” But my dad believes that it was the banana tree that saved his life. [Melissa: Protected him.] Yeah, and it was that relationship that he had built as an innocent child, where I even though he didn't see himself as a child anymore because when I asked him, you know, “were you- so you were a child?” He was like “Nah, I was an adult.” but I was like “Wait a minute. You were 11. How is that an adult?”  [Melissa: Oh my gosh.] But that, that was the premises though, why I named it that. Because it gave us a fresh start, it, you know, it's the reason why I'm alive here, you know, speaking to you. And why I was able to write his story and write the book as well.  

Melissa: Mmm, beautiful, really powerful story and I love how you reframe, and we both do work in restoration ecology and the whole idea of, you know, restoring native landscapes, restoring native communities, they obviously go together, what Robin Kimmerer calls ‘biocultural restoration’ or ‘reciprocal restoration’, which is so linked, and it's one of the best ways that we can understand the link between nature and culture, which for Indigenous peoples were never separated anyway, but for Western ecologists, there's almost like this war on invasive species, which is so ironic because it's usually white settlers talking about a war against French broom or Scotch broom, or whatever it may be. And wanting to, you know, eradicate this alien species. And you really relate to that in terms of again being displaced and being an immigrant and also seeing that not all quote invasive or foreign plants are negative, and they're incorporated like the banana has been so beautifully incorporated into your culture. And so, if you could just share any more about really relating to the plant, also, as like a new immigrant, and what it means to be a good settler, as opposed to being an invasive settler. 

Jessica: Yes, I think that you kind of mentioned something, right? That invasive species are often- we are taught to like violently kind of eliminate them from the landscapes. And oftentimes my elders told me and reminded me that, you know, invasive species are someone's relatives or their displaced relatives. So, we still have to follow our protocol to remove them. We still have to ask for their permission and I think that that's something that Western science doesn't really understand and it's unfortunate right? Because you mentioned a lot of these scientists, they're kind of violently removing their plants, their relatives, because a lot of these plants were introduced from Europe. So, a lot of people who have European ancestry, that's their displaced [Melissa: That's their relative.] Yes. [laughs gently] So I think that with restoration, you know, it's not to negate that invasive species actually do have an impact and sometimes a negative impact in our landscapes, but in the cases, for instance of banana trees that have become also our relative while there were displaced, we were able to accept them because they were a food source during the Central American Civil War because, you know, now, you can find banana trees anywhere throughout Central America. And I think that when we start to understand the relationships and Indigenous peoples, have where we show that respect, even to displaced relatives, or displaced plant relatives, it kind of also allows me to, you know, kind of see the similarities of when we talk about immigration, right?  

A lot of the immigration discourse kind of forgets to accept the fact that It's Indigenous peoples from Central America who are being displaced, it’s Afro-Indigenous peoples from Haiti, the Caribbean who are being displaced because of those climate change impacts coupled with political turmoil, couple with the ongoing oppression that these settler countries are enacting against Indigenous and Afro-Indigenous peoples. And I think that, you know, it's the American value, right? Where oh if you’re not American, you're an immigrant, you’re an illegal alien, whatever, are negative connotations, but they forget to realize that we're still Indigenous peoples from the Americas and there weren’t any settler borders created until [Melissa: That’s right, very recently.] Yeah, nationalism became a thing and created these borders. I think that I see the parallels of how colonization has also infiltrated or is very present in restoration conservation because of those nuances in the way that we perceive invasive species or in this- also in displaced people.  

Melissa: Mhmm. Wow, it's so insightful. Such great connections. And yeah, you- you know I love that you don't pull any punches in terms of really naming eco-colonialism, and settler colonialism, and how it's embedded in the academy, and Western sciences and in the conservation field. And so much of your work as an Indigenous scientist is to decolonize from that. And just so we're all on the same ground. If you could just define, you know, how you define settler colonialism and eco-colonialism. And before that I was just very moved too, and profoundly influenced by, how you defined your understanding of settler colonialism living in three different nation states. That was just fascinating. So, if you know, and really powerful between, yeah, the different countries, so if you can share a bit about that would be wonderful.  

Jessica: Yes, thank you. So oftentimes in the United States, right? We see people from Latin America as people of color. So, during that positionality people, you know, who are Latinx or who are considered as Hispanic forget to self-reflect under positionality back in our homelands. So, you know, it's kind of like the nerd in between the oppressor versus the oppressed, and how the oppressed in this country becomes our oppressors back in our lands. So, I think that that kind of shows a bigger picture of what settler colonialism is, especially how it's different, because there's a different whiteness or white identity that's uplifted in each country. So white people from Latin America are considered people of color in the United States. [Melissa: Yes, right?] And it doesn't say that it doesn't mean that they don't face any type of oppression because there is nationalism, there is xenophobia and the anti-immigration discourse, but it kind of people forget that their whiteness is something that oppressing us back in our lands.  

And I think that navigating through three different settler colonialism makes me understand how settler colonialism at the end of the day is uplifting whiteness and how people who embody that identity, don't really self-reflect on positionality, and it's sometimes they take it personal, right? Like, even when we bring up like white supremacy whiteness, if you're uncomfortable, you are going to kind of be defensive when Indigenous peoples, or Black people, or any people of color are mentioning that and then it kind of gets a little bit more tricky because you're like talking about people of color, or people who are considered people of color in the United States who are also embodying whiteness when they go back to Latin America. And I think that settler colonialism has allowed me to understand that.  

At the end of the day is still oppressing Black people, it still is oppressing Afro-Indigenous peoples, and Indigenous peoples, whose lands they're occupying, and nobody wants to do anything right? Because nobody wants to give up their power and privilege because that's something that makes them comfortable. That's something that has helped them so much. Like think that, you know, it's interesting to navigate those three layers of settler colonialism as you mention.  

Melissa: Yeah, that's powerful. It's so, so insightful. And you know the way that class and gender also intersect with those different identities is really part of the picture. And you really, so much of your work does talk about displacement, and relocation, and diaspora, along with, you know, the profound sense of the deep roots, and sense of identity that Indigenous peoples have with our ancestral lands. So can you share a little bit about how you personally balance that tension between kind of the longing for homelands living in the diaspora, but also the belonging, the sense of belonging, that you have as an Indigenous person and the way you relate to the lands that you currently live on.  

Jessica: Yes, thank you for your question. I think that kind of reminds me of my grandmother, something that she always told me, you know, as the only granddaughter displaced because, you know how I mentioned only, my parents were displaced. She will always tell me that anywhere I walked on, that wasn't necessarily our ancestral lands. I was kind of walking into someone's home, and that someone's home are the Indigenous peoples, and Indigenous lands, where I'm stepping on. And I think that through that, she taught me that I had to build relationships, not just with the Indigenous lands, which sometimes in land acknowledgements we tend to focus more on the land aspect, but we forget to focus on the relationship aspect that we should also build with Indigenous peoples who are still alive, who are still, you know, trying to steward their lands, even though, you know, management, policies, laws, regulations prevent them from doing so. [Melissa: Yes] And I and I think that, you know, through that she always taught me that, you know, I was walking in someone's home as an unwelcome guest and I had to build those relationships to be welcome into someone's home and I-, you know, oftentimes. I think that, you know, we all want to go back to our lands, but there is the ongoing oppression, there’s still that ongoing violence, especially the persecution of Indigenous peoples who advocate for our environment and answers between Latin America. And I think that, you know, unless we can undo settler colonialism that is impacting us negatively, many of us in the diaspora won't be able to return back to our lands.  

Melissa: So true. So true. And I was very fortunate to work with the Tibetan community living in diaspora in the San Francisco Bay Area, who were considered, you know, refugees, immigrants, and didn't have citizenship. And many of them were second, third generation living in refugee camps and India had never even been to Tibet, their parents or grandparents had to flee for their lives in the 50s and yet, you know, their languages, their songs, their Losar, they just celebrated their new year with the new moon. The way that they kept their culture alive and praying to their sacred mountains and to their sacred deities through their foods, and their languages, and stories was just so inspiring to me that they've never been to their homeland. They probably will never go to their homeland. And yet, they have that deep bond, which really gets to that spiritual essence of our relationship to our lands. It really transcends physical space. Would you agree with that? 

Jessica: Yeah, Definitely. And I think that, you know, the Tibetan people are also a great example, right. Because they cannot return back to their homelands because it's still being, you know, there’s still colonialism going where people are trying to take over their lands and, you know, as a result they're being persecuted, and they had to seek refuge in India and obviously in other parts of the world as well.  

Melissa: That's right. That's right. Yes. And your beautiful subtitle to, you know, …Healing Indigenous Landscapes through Indigenous Sciences. As Indigenous peoples, I think that's just medicine to our ears for like, yes, you know, say it. It's on a book, you know, it's on podcasts, it’s on the radio. You're really getting that message out there and yet, I think, for many non-Indigenous peoples, there may not be an understanding of really exactly what that means. So, if you could just say a little bit more about your definition of healing Indigenous landscapes.  

Jessica: Yeah, so I often feel that non-Indigenous peoples think that I wrote a guidebook on how to heal Indigenous land through Indigenous science. [Melissa laughs] And I think that that kind of loses, you know, kind of goes against the message that I was trying to make where we have to center Indigenous peoples of the lands that we're currently occupying, settled in, or currently living so that we can heal our landscapes and obviously, you know, I'm not gonna be sharing sacred knowledge because oftentimes people don't understand some Indigenous science is sacred knowledge that our cultural protocols do not allow us to share unless we have permission. And I think that that kind of manifests itself in the fact that a lot of our Indigenous science that has been shared has been co-opted or published without, you know, our permission.  

And I think that one of my main areas is that, as Indigenous peoples, we still carry trauma, but we also carry the healing. Because, you know, we're not sitting in a corner, not being able to do anything because otherwise our cultures wouldn't have survived colonization, we're still thriving. We're still adapting. And genocide doesn't really necessarily define our cultures or communities, but something that's still embedded in our history, yet it's ignored, right? Especially in mainstream educational discourses. And through that, I'm just messin- putting the message that we had to center ourselves, especially our spirituality, because that's the core of our Indigenous science, our spirituality, where unlike Western sciences we’re told that in the name of objectivity, we have to remove ourselves from the science. But through Indigenous science, we are told to put ourselves forward because we are a part of nature. Nature is not a part of us, right? Because our creation stories always kind of, you know, are rooted in the fact that the creator created us from in- from our environment. And I think that that is like a- like something that I see people finding as a blur line, because they thought that, you know, or they think the book is going to be a guidebook on how to, you know, heal Indigenous landscapes. Which you know one book cannot do and it's a call for us to center and uplift all these Indigenous communities globally as well.  

Melissa: Yes. I love that. And it really speaks to what Enrique Salmón says is that “All Indigenous knowledge is local knowledge.” All Indigenous knowledge is local knowledge, not meaning that it can't be useful or important in terms of understanding transnationally, you know with Indigenous solidarity movements globally. But, you know, what's a Zapotec science is going to be for your Zapotec homeland. And an Anishinaabe science is going to be for my homeland and an Ohlone science is for the Ohlone people. And I think that's really a challenge for the Western Eurocentric mindset that is always looking for universal knowledge, right? Something that's supposedly can be utilized anywhere in the world.  

Why do you think it is that, you know, Western academy and Western science is, so I would say almost obsessed with this idea of quote ‘objective, universal knowledge’ whereas Indigenous peoples are so comfortable with the idea that, you know, my sacred mountain is right here? But your sacred mountain is right there and there's no problem, right? That's the center of your universe, this the center of my universe, and that's okay. And that seems to be a fundamental schism between Indigenous knowledge systems, and for lack of better words, Western or Eurocentric worldviews.  

Jessica: Yeah, thank you for your question. And I think that it just reminds me of what I'm currently doing in environmental physics, right? Where physics has separated itself from any societal impacts, from any societal implications where, you know, it's not social-political. It doesn't really have any justice components to it, because, you know, it's this abstract concept where nothing intersects with society, which is not the case, right? [Melissa: Mmm.] We think of physics, we think of the concept of energy and how that's a core term and concept that's taught in physics education. And we know that energy industry is kind of resulting in a lot of climate change impacts, but yet, physics continues to separate the concept of energy from society, where the concept of energy something that cannot be perceived or seen. And we know that that's not the case. And I think that I disagree that Western science is objective, because when we look at the history, it comes from European white cisgender man, who had philosophical views where religion was also a Western [Melissa: Religion was very involved.] Yeah, so I’m like, you know, for me it's not objective, but I guess because it is a dominant culture, it is a dominant norm. It seems to be objective, right? But I don't think it is.  

Melissa: Yes. No, I don't either. I don't either. And I love Vandana Shiva's great work. Shiva’s Monoculture of the Mind where she really deconstructs that idea that Western European science is a local knowledge from a little island, northern Europe, right? And a couple little islands there and it's not a universal knowledge, but it was we think it's universal knowledge because it was spread through cognitive imperialism. So, it's kind of like this trick that we that that we all have- have believed, but Indigenous people I don't think ever did. And so that's an important, you know cognitive difference that I think really creates a division and a tough place in academia.  

And I loved how your book asked, you asked your elders questions, your family members questions, and then you asked yourself questions. And there is something about, you know, how every day, like, how hard is it for you to work in academia? And what are some of the challenges or obstacles that you face? We know that, you know, in your book, you- you talked about your father's really tragic story of having to go to war at such a young age and being in physical war. And yet you, you know, and a lot of us are kind of word warriors, what Gerald Vizener calls “Word Warriors” in the academy, right fighting for spaces. So, what are some of your daily struggles and opportunities in higher education and in science that you're grappling with?  

Jessica: Yeah. Sometimes, like, I think I'm just a talking sensation that happens with a lot of Indigenous peoples, especially at the academy where, you know, we are told to speak for all, like, you were [Melissa: Oh yes!], to speak for all Indigenous peoples and oftentimes. I'm like, well, I can only speak for myself and sometimes I cannot even speak for my entire community because we don't, you know, we're not all the same. We're not going to agree on the same concepts or the same themes that I bring up. And I think that that's something that Western society still is trying to address where you were mentioning, also how it’s trying to make us all a universal thing, where it doesn't necessarily address our intersectionalities, our different identities, how it's place based, how it's not universal, how it can be applied anywhere, because that's not respecting Indigenous sovereignty in that place. And I think that that's the biggest obstacle I faced. I also see it how we continue to be research subjects or areas of expertise, where especially in the environmental sciences, right? You see, a lot of non-Indigenous scientists who are like, I'm an expert of Indigenous communities, but you don't see them applying that to other communities. So, I think that you know that it's kind of become a commodity where Indigenous cultures and knowledge is something that they can be consumed, especially in the environmental sciences.  

Melissa: Exactly. Yeah. I mean as Paulo Freire and so many have said, our Western education, it's a banking model. It's a capitalistic model of Education. We buy information, we digest it. We consume it. We deposit it. We extract it. So, it's not really a living understanding of learning and knowledge from Indigenous world views and yet we're trying to indigenize the academy in various ways. And I know that you're teaching some really exciting classes that you spoke about last semester. And how are you trying to bring in some of these concepts of Indigenous learning processes in your classroom? 

Jessica: Yes. Thank you for the question. So I taught in climate science, and I think that there was that pushback that I received from some students where I was integrating Indigenous voices, why Indigenous science was important, because, you know, as a student, you have normalized that in your introductory in Western classes- or your introduction science classes, you're going to just focus on the Western science, how to do the math, how to, you know, find the calculations, especially in climate science.  

So, I think by me providing lived experiences, case studies. Seeing how climate science is not necessarily just focusing on the physics models that are, you know, basically putting the data for our greenhouse emissions, but it's also focusing on the people, the experiences that they're having as a result of climate change, how its Indigenous communities, who are being impacted by climate change impacts. And how that's often ignored in climate science. When we focus more on greenhouse gasses, where we focus more on blaming the agricultural in agricultural systems, which I mean they're responsible, but it's still kind of forgetting to look at the bigger picture. How we are, you know, seeing activism kind of be put in the front and center, but it's not really centering Indigenous peoples who are currently experiencing climate change impacts.  

Even looking at the Pacific Islanders. There's a lot of Indigenous peoples who- whose Islands, you know, are kind of being lost because of sea-level rise, yet when we look at climate justice and activism that has built momentum. They're nowhere to be included or, you know, uplift, there or found. So, I think that through that students were receive something different. But because it was something different. I did receive like some receptive students, who were like “Wait a minute. Why is this, you know, being talked about in this class? How is related?” But I think that, you know, if we're not always going to get to all the students, but if we can get to some students who, you know, are like “Thank you for you know, telling me this” I was able to bring up how Indigenous peoples continue to be forgotten in this class, you know, it's like, you know, it kind of builds those seeds and plants those seeds and hopefully they will build into, you know, trees or flowers, but obviously, you know, it's not always going to be the case especially students who are coming in from that Western science stance.  

Melissa: Exactly and are not really prepared to- for self-reflection and, you know, a different way of understanding knowledge. Yeah, I've struggled with some of that as well and, you know, in Western education, we think we have a right to knowledge. And in Indigenous education, we have responsibilities to knowledge. And so, you know, it's a very different approach and, you know, we roll up our sleeves and like, do stuff with our knowledge. And I've been really impressed to see how you've really immersed yourself and the Puget Sound, the Salish Sea with the Duwamish, and all the incredible tribes, proud tribes, of the Seattle area. And, you know, the climate change issues are very, very poignant there because of sea level rise and the salmon fishing. And have you been doing some restoration work in the Puget Sound there, or supporting some of the tribes and some other environmental justice issues?  

Jessica: Yes, definitely, especially in Daybreak Star Indian Cultural Center. That's where I had kind of did my project for my dissertation, where the community told me what they needed from the environment, as opposed to me, you know, like you were saying, how, why scientists were trying to make up the question or kind of tell the community what will be beneficial for them without including their knowledge. And I think that there's some- a soil project that I'm hopefully, you know, going to start doing in south Seattle, and working with the Black and Indigenous in solidarity that hopefully, you know, flourishes into something across, you know, nationally to kind of empower our communities, especially seeing how settler colonialism, is intersected in both of our histories.  

Melissa: Mmm-hmm. Absolutely. And I love how in your book you talk about urban indigeneity. And that's something I also focus on in the San Francisco and Oakland Bay Area, and also now here in the Phoenix Valley. And seventy percent of Native Americans live in urban areas, and then Indigenous communities living in diaspora from India, Tibetans, and you know, Maya, from all over the place, and Mosquito from Nicaragua. And so really, urban areas have become these beautiful multi-ethnic Indigenous, hotbeds of solidarity, and activism, and justice issues. And not that we're not without, you know, issues because we're all at different levels, like you said of colonization, and decolonization, and settler status. But it's very exciting to recognize indigeneity in urban areas, and I really love that you uplifted that in your book. Can you say a little bit more about, you know, your work and the importance of honoring indigeneity in urban spaces? 

Jessica: Thank you for your question. And I think that it goes back to that statistic that you mentioned, right that 70% of Indigenous peoples live in urban areas. And I think that that has a lot to do with the opportunities that are offered back in our homelands. That's more of the internal displacement that continues to happen in this nation. Settlers stay, the United States, and I think that you know, sometimes we even forget how urban areas are still Indigenous lands. They just have undergone a lot of that eco-colonialism, right? That changes to their environments through our organization, through, you know, tech companies [Melissa: Technology. Yes, yes.] So, I think that it's important for us to honor those as well and see how our knowledge is like we were both discussing, may- are being like taken and brought to the urban settings where we're not losing the indigeneity like many people might believe because, you know, we're no longer living in our ancestral lands.  

Melissa: Mmm. And yet, we’re in being enriched by learning from each other. You know, we have the Cultural Conservancy has a farm just outside of San Francisco and we have Mayan farmers come and teach about their corn and tell their stories of corn. We have Seneca corn farmers, talk about, you know their relationship with a different variety of corn from the north country. We have you know, Yaqui people talk about their relationship with certain beans, and then Navajo talk about beans so it's almost like a new type of Indigenous internationalism in urban areas and I think it's very enriching and showing that we are modern people, and not just in the past, and we're adapting always and evolving. Excellent. Yeah, and I love you did a whole chapter on ecofeminism and really uplifting, you know, the women leaders of the Zapatista movement that was so powerful and such a watershed movement for Indigenous rights globally. And if you could just, you know, share a little bit more about how you define ecofeminism, especially Indigenous women's role as environmental land steward. 

Jessica: I thank you for the question. And I think that says something that I always struggle with, especially, not necessarily the concept of ecofeminism, but the fact that my Zapotec nation, especially my pueblo, because, you know, as a nation we're made up of different pueblos, how we have maintained that matriarchal society, where it's the woman, you know, who are leading our tables, where every woman has to speak before the men can actually speak. And it's like a small bubble because when you leave, you know, Juchitan or you leave your pueblo. You know, you're kind of faced with patriarchy where, you know, as a woman, you have to be quiet. You cannot speak against the man, especially cisgender men. And I think that through eco-feminism, it’s kind of like something that I find myself in the gray area because, you know, ecofeminism teaches us that, you know, as women, we have a stronger relationship with nature because of that nature and nurture situation, but yet, it my communities, you know, it's a matriarchal society, but then I'm constantly fighting, you know, the patriarchy.  

And I think that that's something that we all face and how patriarchy has infiltrated some of our pueblos in our nation, where some of our pueblos are no longer a matriarchal society and how you know, this my little pueblos still trying to fight to prevent that from infil- infiltrating and I guess we eco-feminism, it kind of uplifts Indigenous woman and you know, women in general. And how it shows how it's our Indigenous women who are leading a lot of our environmental movement, who are leading a lot of our resistance movement. And the Zapatistas is a great example because it was something that Indigenous woman led, but because of patriarchy, Subcomandante Marcos, who was a cisgender man became the face of that movement, even though he was, you know, being led by these strong Indigenous women. So that's how ecofeminism kind of manifests itself in our communities, but then we see in outside of our community, the patriarchy always continues to give the men the authority and also the reign of the movement  

Melissa: Exactly, and it's really a remnant of colonialism too because so many times a lot of native cultures, not all but many native cultures, of the Americas really were more matrilocal, matrilineal, you know, women-centered and when colonialism came in and Christianity, it was always about privileging the men, and of course, whenever you get- are given a lot of power and privilege, it's hard to give that up. And it becomes a habit, or a pattern that has been internalized in a lot of our Indigenous communities along with homophobia as you mentioned earlier. So, there's a lot of peeling that has to be done. Yeah. And speaking of, I love that. I love all your food metaphors in your book. Peeling the onion of decolonization, and how you share with your students that, you know, the decolonial process, it's kind of an ongoing process like peeling an onion. Can you share one of those layers of the onion with us?  

Jessica: Okay so the- the ways that I kind of give a- because, you know, as Indigenous peoples we tend to be more visual. Giving a visual example to students is like it's peeling an onion, right? Because settler colonialism is not just one layer that we have to dismantle. When we talk about the colonists, the academy is not just doing one thing to decolonize, it has multiple layers that we have to deconstruct or dismantle in order for us to truly become decolonized the academy and I often like to use the metaphor peeling onion layers because, you know, there's going to be healing our communities have to undergo, and there's going to be a lot of crying because, you know, our tears are healing mechanism, especially from our body. And, you know, that was the metaphor that came up with because, you know, we always kind of shed tears when we're peeling or yes, when you peel your onions, you're left with your tears.  

[both laugh]  

Melissa: Always, when you peel your onions, you are left with your tears. Exactly. And then eventually a tasty meal [both laugh] but you gotta get through some layers of tears. Definitely. Yeah, well, I'd like to read one little section at the end of your book about healing. It's not, it's not a gonna ruin the book for you who haven't read it yet, but it's just such a beautiful, succinct, you have a way to just of articulating complex concepts in these really succinct ways, I just love that.  

And you say, “I strongly believe that in order to start healing Indigenous landscapes everyone must understand their positionality as either settlers, unwanted guests, or welcomed guests, and that is ultimately determined by the Indigenous communities whose lands you currently reside on or occupy.”  

Yeah, and I think there is a reckoning happening, you know, since 2020 and the racial justice movement with Black Lives Matter, and so many converging crises including the- the pandemic, and the economic crisis and climate change. There is- we’re in exciting times there is tumult, and people are beginning to recognize whose land am I on? And it's so refreshing. I've been doing this work for probably a couple more decades than you, and you know I used to talk about returning native lands to native hands, people would be like, “Whoa, that's private property. That's sacrosanct.” That is. See, you know, “You can't talk about that.” And now the land back movement and the land rematriation movement and it's and the environmental justice movement, things are strengthening and building. And would you like to share a story about an environmental justice victory or environmental project you've worked on that. You felt worked really well, that was something very successful?   

Jessica: So, I can just recall the recent Mayan led environmental movement where the Mayan Kaqchi community, and it's something that we supported through the International Mayan League, how there were leading a resistance movement, a peaceful resistance movement against a Canadian mining company. That was desecrating their lands, you know, the Maya Kaqchi Community was met with a lot of violence, especially from the government, where, you know, they were using gas, other things to kind of prevent our people, but I really like how the Prensa Comunitaria, which is a Mayan, Guatemalan based news outlet center our Indigenous women where they were showing the Indigenous women stopping the army and I really liked how it was seen, you know, it wasn't patriarchy, where, you know, the men were being put in the front and center of these articles. And right now, I haven't looked up the news but they were actually kind of defending their Indigenous rights in front of Congress and the United Nations. So hopefully we will see how that turns out, but it shows how because it gathers a lot of media attention, especially outside of Guatemala. You know, it kind of pressures the government to actually be like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe we didn't do the best techniques, which often tends to happen. Right? Our Indigenous movements [Melissa: Of course]. Our peoples are met with a lot of violence, but then you see other things like in Canada with the truckers there. [Melissa: Yes] they're not really being violent against them.  

Melissa: Or other white settlers who occupy public lands and there's no problem. Yeah, but if Indigenous peoples go to quote public lands to you know, harvest traditional foods or medicines or pray at sacred sites are often arrested. Yeah, so there's really still gross injustices in that area. Well, that's a, that's a good story to hear from the Mayan people and there was just recently also a landmark case. You probably heard about it, in Ecuador the high courts. Yes. I mean said that there can be no oil and gas exploration on Indigenous territories without free prior and informed consent and they're actually trying to set up a protocol in a process where it's implemented. It's not just on paper. So, everyone's quite hopeful about that legal victory to see how it gets implemented. Yeah, great. And let's close, we just have a few minutes left, on food and your work with food sovereignty and urban gardening and some of the foods that you are working with in the Seattle area with some of the local tribes or some of your traditional foods? 

Jessica: So, one of the projects that you know, I'm trying to continue like co-leading. It's like a mutual aid to support our Indigenous communities back in Oaxaca. Especially as extreme weather conditions are destroying our milpas, which is, you know, our holistic agricultural system. That kind of is some communal harvest and I think that that's something that you know, I'm still working on especially, you know, whether drought or hurricane season has continued to destroy our crops and hopefully with this pandemic, why food insecurity has been something that has been amplified unfortunately, with a lot of our community members. And, you know, how do we get foods to them? It's something that, you know, it's always in our minds, especially for those of us who I feel like everyone, who does environment work, who is Indigenous ends up doing some food sovereignty… 

Melissa: But you have to, exactly. [Jessica laughs] You just have to. Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's so important. That's great to hear. And as I mentioned, in your book, in her great book… I can't quite show it here. She asks, questions of so many people, really good questions and there's a couple in here that you actually ask. I think it's in the Eco Wars section. Oops. I thought I highlighted it here. Where you ask it of the readers. What people can do to basically increase Indigenous justice. Shoot. Let me see. Where is it here? I lost it. Let's see… Well, you basically talk about how conservation is a Western construct that was really created to exploit Indigenous lands and natural resources and then you kind of challenge the reader to challenge them. What are they going to do to really uplift and recognize the rights of Indigenous peoples in national parks? And I thought that was great that you did that, because national parks are meant to be for all people at all times. And yet they were Indigenous peoples' lands, for thousands of years. And yet many Indigenous peoples were excluded from them and a lot of people of color historically, have not really been invited or welcomed or been able to access a lot of the national parks as well. So, I like that you are really trying to decolonize the park model as well. If you can say anything more about that with some of the national parks, you've worked with in your home country and in the US. 

Jessica: Yeah so, I think that whole national parks concept is something that manifested from the United States. And you know, a lot of people don't understand or don't know that national parks can be found now globally, especially throughout the Americas and I was talking about my Maya Ch’orti’ lands which now hosts or houses a national park where, you know, it doesn't necessarily allow Indigenous peoples to kind of steward the landscape. Or it doesn't allow us to practice our ceremonies or traditions that we used to practice in our lands, right, especially in our sacred sites, and we see that a lot in the Bay Area, especially in California, where land is something that everyone kind of wants because everybody wants to move to California because of these major cities, but yet when it comes to Indigenous peoples, they're not even allowed to step foot or they have to fight to get permission to practice their ceremonies, especially ceremonies are important for them to have in these national parks. And I think the whole concept of national parks and digesting that history is that it was rooted on, you know, the forced removal of Indigenous peoples from these lands. That somebody was like, oh these are beautiful lands, I want to preserve them for the future generations. Without understanding that the beauty behind those lands was because Indigenous peoples were successfully stewarding and care taking of those lands.  

Melissa: That's right. Yes. It's the whole deconstruction of the wilderness model, which the environmental movement was completely based on the wilderness model and this idea of untouched pristine nature, which was a fallacy because it was very touched. Like you said, with the hands of a lot of women and men, elders and young people stewarding those areas, those relationships. And again, I love you included Enrique Salmon’s great work and discussion about concentric ecology and breaking down that binary of, you know, human dominating nature or nature being alone without humans, you know, we often go from a anthropocentric to a biocentric worldview, the environmental movement did right? It can't be human centered, it has to be nature centered without humans. But then Enrique Salmon and Dennis Martinez and others came up with this concept of concentric ecology that no, we have to center our relationships with all of these relatives as equals and as reciprocal. Great. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share about the book at this point? I know I could talk to you all evening [Jessica laughs] about your wonderful work and that we've been on such parallel paths, doing so many exciting things together and in, on parallel areas. So, thank you so much for your extraordinary book and your incredible work and all the listeners out there and reviewers, check it out. If you haven't picked it up yet, Fresh Banana Leaves. It's a wonderful read. It's powerful. It's not always easy because Dr. Hernandez really talks about, you know, the brutal consequences of colonialism and healing from that, healing as Indigenous people, but the healing that needs to happen with all people due to settler colonialism. So, I really appreciate that.  

Jessica: I just wanted to thank you Dr. Nelson, because, you know, you are a pioneer in Indigenous science and especially, you know, the work that my generation is doing and the future generations are yet to come, could not have happened, right, without Indigenous scholars such as yourself, and others like Dr. Kyle Whyte. And I think that it's important for us to acknowledge, you know, the fight that the previous generation, you know, started and continues to have so that we can truly liberate our lands and also kind of liberate ourselves in the academic setting. So, thank you. And it was an honor to have this conversation, especially, you know, in your presence. 

Melissa: Oh well likewise. Thank you and looking forward to many future collaborations.  

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
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