CIIS Public Programs Podcast

Transcript

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[Cheerful theme music begins] 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

The contemporary definition of a “good” or “healthy” body has been centuries in the making, but as eating disorder specialist and storyteller Jessica Wilson writes, “the pure, moral, rule-abiding body has never, ever, been a Black woman’s.”  

Every day, Jessica sees how the pressure to conform to white supremacist ideals of health and beauty constrict and harm women of color. As a registered dietitian specializing in eating disorders, as a social justice activist, and as a woman with multiple marginalized identities, Jessica’s goal is to end this harm. 

In this episode, CIIS Dean of Faculty Development, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion at CIIS Danielle Drake has a conversation with Jessica that challenges us to rethink the politics of body liberation by centering the bodies of Black women in our cultural discussions of self-image, food, health, and wellness. 

This episode was recorded during an in-person and live streamed event at California Institute of Integral Studies on March 8th, 2023. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

[Theme music concludes] 

Danielle: We are here, and it is a pleasure to be here. I was just talking earlier that this is one of the first few in-person conversations we've had in this iteration of the pandemic. I'm saying we're trans-pandemic. [laughs] So, I'm really, really happy to have you here and to have this conversation today. 

Jessica: I'm so glad to talk to you. Do you mind if we start with our pronouns? 

Danielle: Sure. 

Jessica: So, I'm Jessica Wilson, I use she/her pronouns and… 

Danielle: I'm Danielle Drake and I use she/her/joyful. 

Jessica: I love that so much. 

Danielle: Thank you. It's a reminder. It's a reminder for me. It's a reminder for others. I think that joy is a choice in a lot of ways. We can talk more about that. I have some thoughts about that, that you actually articulate pretty well in your book. [laughs] 

Jessica: Thanks. 

Danielle: So, let's jump in.  

Jessica: Yeah, let’s! 

Danielle: So, the first question that I have is really just about what is the impetus for writing this book? And I'm interested in the title too, It's Always Been Ours. 

Jessica: There's two answers to the impetus for writing the book. 

Danielle: Okay. 

Jessica: Two of them are actually in this audience. I said no to writing this book, from Renee, who is right here, multiple times. “Do you wanna write a book?” “No.” “How about now?” “No.” And then I talked to my friend, Shaina, who actually is across from Renee and said, if I can reach a group of people rather than just my one-on-one appointments with folks, then it would be worth it to write a book. So here we are. 

Danielle: Good answer, Shaina.  

[both laugh] 

Jessica: And then the title, I honestly can't remember where it came from. I wanna say it was one of the initial pitches for the book. And, since it's come out and after reading it throughout, 

and talking with friends, I've just realized how much has always been ours. It's not just like it, as a body narrative. It's joy. It's so many things that have really always been ours, that we've either known or have perhaps been taken from us that we need to reclaim. 

Danielle: Yeah, yeah. I can absolutely understand that. And especially as, I mean, this book is centered for Black women, Black femmes, and so much of our legacy is about being taken, taken from, all of that. And so, to talk about it, even from a joyful resistance place, I think is a big piece, right? 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Danielle: Yeah. And that's what you said you wanted to focus on too. [laughs] [Jessica: Absolutely.] Joy at C-I-I-S. Yeah. 

Jessica: Mhm. I really feel that in 2023, that joy has been missing and we need a lot more of it. I'm tired of things always being hard. I want to laugh. I want to be in community and yes, express and experience joy. 

Danielle: Yeah, yeah. And you know, this question that I'm gonna ask, it was kind of off script [Jessica: Oh, okay!]  because I didn't even think about it until I was in the back there and I was listening to your bio and you are, they said, an eating disorder specialist. And I'm always interested in the word “disorder”. Because as a clinician, we're supposed to diagnose, we're supposed to do all of these things. And it leads us down a path of pathology. And so, I just want you to speak maybe a little bit about, you know, eating as a disorder. And, you know, how we can bring some joy there. 

[both laugh] 

Jessica: So many ways to answer that question. 

Danielle: I know, just like flow with it. [laughs] 

Jessica: I'll start at the beginning or where you started, which is the pathologizing, and I think also “problematizing” of our eating disorder in quotation marks. And so often Black women, Black folks, just will never fit within the confines of a diagnosis, because the medical industrial complex is just not created to include us in the first place. [Danielle: Mhm.] So, I write that, you know, for anorexia or bulimia diagnoses, that Black folks just often don't fit into those categories based on our presentation and we're not seen or assumed to have an “eating disorder”. So, what are we doing when we're talking about and using the word “disorder”? So how can we talk about food in a way that actually applies and makes sense? And how can we talk about the ways that we restrict or eat, in ways that offer joy, also survival, sometimes respectability. [Danielle: Mhm, yeah.] Yeah. 

Danielle: Yeah, yeah. I really appreciate that, and it makes me think about, 

you know, the sort of pathology that is inside of or what is the supposed pathology inside of a disorder and it's really just communication, right? People are communicating about something and it's usually something that is not right. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Danielle: You know? And they don't have, necessarily, the microphone to be able to talk about it, you know? 

Jessica: That's a good point. I like it. 

Danielle: Yeah. So, one of the things that I noticed in the book is that you took sort of a qualitative, narrative approach to the structure of the book, you know, a storytelling approach. And I just want you to talk for a little bit about why that was important specifically for engaging a discussion about, you know, Black women and femme bodies. 

Jessica: Yeah. So, there’s ten parts to that. I'll focus on two. [Danielle laughs] I've been told that I exist in conversation, I exist in community and also, it's more fun and digestible read when it is more of a conversation and not just a string of facts. So, to demonstrate what it is like to be in community. I think I've infused a lot in here. And again, the confines of white supremacy and medicine, Black women, Black folks, are actually never included or centered in that. So, using a quantitative lens is literally impossible because we're not in the research. We have been, historically, the research. So yeah, qualitative. Conversational. 

Danielle: Yeah. And, you know, it was interesting because when I was thinking about it, I was like, of course it would, it can only be that. It can only be that because, you know, just coming from like a womanist perspective, It's about self-definition. And the only way you get to self define is to tell the story. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Danielle: And it's usually so much more nuanced and complex than what the health industrial or the medical industrial complex wants to be able to see. Especially for, you know, folks that, you know, sit outside of the normal population that they use to create all of the guidelines and standards, i.e. BMI, all of the things, right? 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Danielle: Yeah. So, you also took some time to detail some specific definitions about health and wellness and all of that. And, you know, you make distinctions between big H health and little H health, big W wellness, little W wellness. Can you take me through, you know, not just what the definitions are, but maybe a couple of examples about, like, why that's important? 

Jessica: Yeah. Big or capital H health to me is the social construction of health. The series of agreements that we all have about what health is, what health looks like. We like to think that it's objective, that, you know, it's about numbers and values and labs and things, but it's not. It is about what, you know, we have been told, which is oftentimes everything that Blackness and Black women are not, is what is capital H health. And it also, you know, looks a certain way. So even if things look great on paper, but if you don't look healthy for one reason or another, you still won't have it. And then so in that case, like lowercase health might be the way that I'm feeling, might be the way that I'm interacting with folks, but it's, you know, an individual again. Wellness, I love capital W wellness. It's like the wellness industrial complex again! It is Goop, it is dust, it's adaptogens, it's vagina candles. 

Danielle: Wait a minute, that chapter, I was like, absolutely not. 

Jessica: Absolutely. 

[both laugh] 

Danielle: And do you know that this, I didn't read it until after our conversation, our initial conversation, I was like, well, she told me to read this chapter. So, I'm gonna read it. And literally two lines in, I felt like my body tightened. And I was like, this is, you know, it's that moment when you are a person of color going into a white space and you like, “this ain't gonna be right”. And it was literally that. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm reading through the chapter and, in a way, like I get it, I get what you were trying to do. It was like this experiment, right? So, talk to the audience about the experiment of Goop. 

Jessica: [laughs] So, I was months into writing and really hadn't experienced wellness and all it had to offer. To me, it had been through clients that had told me they have gone down their wellness journey, or they had started taking some dusts or whatever it was. And I was wondering how I could get a good experience with wellness in a short period of time. So, I went right to Gwyneth Paltrow and said, “What can she offer me?” I wasn't gonna do a cleanse or anything like that cause that's silly. But instead, she was having a one-day event, her In Goop Health Summit. And that was at the Porsche Driving Experience, Sponsored by Porsche. A part of it was to drive in a Porsche for a spiritual experience of yes, a mind body connection. 

Danielle: A spiritual, capitalist experience. 

Jessica: Right. And one of my favorite parts of it, it was just this, like, weird two things happening at once. And in the meditation, it was like, your feet flat on the ground. And I was like, this is a driveway. This is just really, yeah, it was a lot. 

Danielle: The guided visualization took me out. I was like, no, no. 

Jessica: Oh, absolutely. 

Danielle: We're gonna have a guided visualization about driving a Porsche? 

Jessica: Oh, yes. You have to care for people around you. It's not just an individual experience. Yeah, you're looking out for others. Yeah, it was something. The food offerings at breakfast, but like you already mentioned, if I had been wearing all black, somebody would have asked me where the bathroom was because it was me and maybe two other Black women that I can recall. The whole sea of like long past your shoulder, like blonde and brown hair from, I'd have a picture of the entire event. And that is just all that it is in Wellness Disneyland, where we got to try. Yeah, it was great. But I say it was like this beautiful, easeful time. Like they let me in to like what it meant to be a rich white woman. Like I really got to experience this Disneyland, this paradise of just being carefree for a day. I was like, I get it. I see this. I could honestly pay enough money and get into this, but no, I did not. And then we left with like a thousand to two thousand dollars’ worth of swag. 

Danielle: Wow. 

Jessica: Oh yeah, Gwyneth's own vibrator came in the bag. 

Danielle: Wow, I just don't even know that I would want that. [both laugh] 

Jessica: I love free things! I love free things. But yeah, it was surprising. And the audience was so clear to the speakers and what they were saying, it was like, “Wow, this is just not my reality at all.” The things that you are talking about and the ways that you're trying to be relatable, it’s just not to me and my life. 

Danielle: Yeah, and I hope that this is okay, cause it's in the book, [Jessica: Yeah, yeah!] so we'll talk about it. But the way that your body responded to it, I thought was the most telling thing because it was like, this is not right. We need to shut down and just, like, reject all of what's happening. 

Jessica: Oh, the metaphor there. Look at that. Wow. Yes. And also, what I hadn't realized until really recently. So, the story goes that Goop was just a day, but I was very dedicated to the whole wellness experience. So, we went to LA for two nights total. Gwyneth has her own, like, guide to wellness in LA map. So, we got that, we traveled through LA. We got, yeah, we got the dust from Moon Juice. We went to, like, a clean cafe where there were ridiculous options, including a bariatric smoothie, spelled like a berry, of course. And a bunch of things you could use to clean yourself out if you needed to do so.  

But I had forgotten actually that night, that first night, I had one seizure then and I totally completely forgot about it. So, the first night after having all the dust, I had a seizure. Oh, sorry, I should start over. I have epilepsy. That seizure was not out of nowhere. I've had seizures for 30 years, and they've been finally controlled. I have maybe like one a month on average. And so, I had one that night, which is like, oh, I had one, that's fine. Next day was wellness Disneyland where I also had many dusts, many mushrooms and got a B12 injection into my hip because I was all in. It was a very red vial. I was like, oh, maybe it was like a beetroot shot that literally shoot into your mouth. That's what I thought it was. No, you could pull down your pants and I was all in. So of course, I was going to do that amongst all of the other things that I did.  

And yes, so the next day I woke up with the worst seizure flare that I have had in all of the 30 years. I don't remember the next, I remember the next morning because I was still committed and went to a SoulCycle class, the first one I've ever been to. And I was dedicated to that. And then I don't remember anything after that. Yeah, so yeah, my body said “no” to wellness Disneyland entirely. [Danielle: Mhm.] I hadn't put those together, I rejected it. 

Danielle: Yeah, your body was clearly speaking. And the whole time I was like, for me, it also was about the immersion of you in not just wellness Disneyland, but like wellness as defined by whiteness. [Jessica: Yeah, mhm.] And that's what it was because it didn't allow for any other definitions or expressions, demonstrations of wellness that stood outside of whatever wellness is sort of co-opted to be at this moment. 

Jessica: So, they had folks of color doing the workshops. The initial Black woman did the, 

your feet on the Porsche meditation, right? So, like, you can see that there was like the sprinkling of colored people needed to go for in 2022. They were like, we've been paying attention. Let's have a Black person talk to us about a Porsche meditation. There was a very flamboyant man telling us about creativity and hearkening to Elon Musk and his creativity. Like “okay.” And then other folks, there was somebody who talked about relationships. That was fine. That was fine. Relationships. But yeah, it was not for me.Turns out. 

Danielle: Turns out it wasn't for you, absolutely. And so what you've been doing though, in your own work is, I think, really important because you've been for in your career, really looking at the way that food and eating and all of that is sort of looked at by this profession of being a dietician and then, you know, figuring out alternative ways to, you know, work with folks and all of that. And I had a question that I wanted to ask. Oh, I wanted to talk about some of the narratives in the book. Specifically, I wanted to talk about, a little bit about the narrative about the student who was an engineer. 

Jessica: Mia. 

Danielle: Mia. Yeah. And then also the gymnast. 

Jessica: Lexi. 

Danielle: Lexi. So, in both of those narratives, and they're both Black women, both, like immersed in a world that is not really built for them. 

Jessica: Not at all. 

Danielle: Not at all built for them. You know, we don't have to talk about gymnasts. We already know that that's a whole world of peril, but the woman who was training to be an engineer. And just, can you just share a little bit about that story? And we can talk about, you know. 

Jessica: Yeah. So, I was at a predominantly white institution for actually many collegiate years as a dietician on a college campus. So, I ended up working with a lot of students, grad students, and one in particular was sent to me because her physician had seen her lab results and was like, “I'm concerned there's something going on here.” Go talk to the dietician. And she was like, “Cool, because my hair's falling out.” I need to know what supplements that I'm gonna need to take in order to figure this out. Jessica, how can you help me? What supplements do I need to take? And I was like, oh, okay. That's the conversation that you're willing to have. And that was not the primary concern.  

So, Mia is the client. She was in an all-white graduate program and already as a Black woman was hyper visible yet invisible to everyone around her. And so, when she went on her own wellness journey and ended up losing weight, she became visible, more visible and more palatable. And people started talking to her. So, she wasn't hyper visible. She was more easily seen and was getting the benefits of that which was more social capital, more friends in her program, at the expense of her physical and mental wellbeing.  

So, her body was starting to eat itself and her hair, you heard, was falling out. Her mental health and her family relationships were slowly unraveling. And so, we had a real conversation about what eating more, and I won't say every, cause again, the pathologizing. Yeah, what a disorder is. But what would eating more look like? And it wasn't an option because being seen getting a job, having good references is important when you're a Black professional. And she was open to reading Fearing the Black Body, excellent 400-page book by Dr. Sabrina Strings, highly recommend. She was open to reading it and totally understood me when we talked about white supremacy and the ways that Black women's bodies are viewed and treated. And she said, “yes, I understand and… I appreciate what you're telling me, you are right. And that's not something that I'm going to, I can't eat more food right now.” And as a dietician, you're supposed to solve problems and convince people to recover from their disorder. And that's not at all what's going on right there. She didn't have an eating disorder. She had found her survival strategy. 

Danielle: Yeah, it was literally the line that has stayed with me was “I can't be Black and fat.” And that just, it just broke my heart. You know? No space, none. And then she was equating it to every, like her weight was equated to every measure of success she could have. So it was like, being able to have, be fit in like for study groups, to have network afterwards, that if she were these two things, Black and fat, that she would not be able to have any of those. And it was just... 

Jessica: Real? 

Danielle: Real. Real, hard. You know? And that the messages of, you know, white supremacy, patriarchy, capitalism, had just, like, gotten into her bones. And she was like, “For my survival, this is what I have to do.” 

Jessica: Yeah, we had the conversations. I was like, oh, do you know of any older folks in your profession who are fat Black women? Be like, “Yes, absolutely.” And I was like, “How are their, you know, how's her career going?” And she's like, “It's fine now”, but they got into the profession. And so, her assumption was, you know, they had done the same things that she had done. They had shrunk their bodies at the time, but like now they're established and they're able to be comfortable being fat and Black. But, you know, it just wasn't an option. She saw the dichotomies and the dissonance there, but. 

Danielle: Yeah. And the reality is that people treat you differently. [Jessica: Yeah.] People treat you differently when you conform to, you know, whatever the standard is. I remember working at a substance abuse clinic, and I had a particular client, and she was just, you know, doing well. We were working her program the way she wanted to work at it, and it was working and then, you know, [she] had a relapse and she started losing all of this weight. And everybody was like, “Oh, you look great. You look great.” And I was just like, “Oh, don't say that to her.” You know, I mean, because I knew that it was, it was based in all of the things, you know, that we've been talking about so far. And she was actually the least healthy that she had been since I started seeing her. And it is terrifying what people will do to their bodies in order to, you know, fit into these standards. 

Jessica: Yeah. I had a patient who lost weight because she had cancer, and she got such positive feedback from people who didn't know she had cancer. They didn't have an eating disorder beforehand, but after her cancer recovery, she said, “You know, I can't give this up. You know, I can't regain the weight that I lost through cancer.” And so ended up working in our eating disorder program. And we had to talk about, you know, all of the myths of, you know, sugar and any carbohydrate and all of these things that people find on the internet when they're searching for answers, when society is just trash. It's fine. 

Danielle: Yeah. And, you know, I think this is a good segue into a question that I wanted to ask about just the ideas that you share in the book align with the size diversity, and inclusion conversations that are just beginning to happen more publicly here at CIIS. This is really important to me just because I've been around this, thank you. I've been around this environment, this institution, this community since 2008, first as a student, all the things. I've held all the positions. And I remember specifically having to work very hard internally, to make sure that I did not ever allow this place full of like thin white yoga bodies, you know, 

to see myself represented. So, I would walk down the halls and never encounter anybody 

who looked like me: size, shape, color, nothing. And so it was a real journey for me. 

And so, I think that, you know, there are people now here at this school who are really like, you know, “I want this to be a part of our conversation.” You know, it has to be a part of the conversation. So just, you know, can you speak about your choice to join some of the size inclusive diet? What's the right term that you were using that's out there in the community? 

Jessica: So, like the health at every size community? 

Danielle: Health at every size. I love that, okay, yes. Let's talk about that, how you made the choice to sort of join those groups earlier in your career. So that's the first part. [Jessica: Okay.] And then the second part is, you know, you talk about ways that size inclusivity can be implemented in both individual conversations and then larger systems, like CIIS. 

Jessica: Okay, you'll have to remind me of that. 

Danielle: Yeah, we'll go back. [laughs] 

Jessica: I can go into, yeah, specifics about there. You'll have to remind me again. I got into those community groups when I was still working at the University of Oregon because we were seeing average sized overweight and obese patients with anorexia. And we're like, “Oh no, like this is not in the textbooks. What do we do?” We know nothing as a treatment team. I need to learn about the science that is out there with the like weight science is what we'll call it. But the idea that weight is linked to, let's see how should I put it, disconnecting health from weight.  

So, the size of our bodies, our weight does not have a direct impact on our health or what health looks like for us. And in those communities, it was a bunch of middle-aged baby-boomer at the time, fat white women. And they were having conversations that were incredibly second wave feminism. So, it was a, how do we get ourselves to be treated like thin white women when we go to the doctor's office? And I said, “Hey, what about other things that are going on in doctor's offices other than weight stigma and fat phobia here?” Because my friends who are fat that I'm talking to now, when they go to the doctor, even if they're treated like thin people, they're still Black, they're still disabled, they're still trans. So, what conversations do we need to be having that are different than the ones that are being had here?  

So that was like my, like into health at every size, I helped them rewrite their principles in 2014. You know they’re like, hey, Black person have a seat at our literal table or think tank. We need you in diversity and social justice was the term at that time. It was before intersectionality. So, it was like, we need these social justice words, literally, in our principles. And foolish me, thinking that the words in there would mean something, but it was business as usual. So, I had to say goodbye then. So now, yay for different organizations that are outside. So, the Association for Science, Diversity, and Health is one who owns the health at every size principles, but then there are rad fat organizations like Knowlose. Yes, well shout out and people have questions about- 

Danielle: Yes, please shout out all the resources and groups and all of that, because this is really about, I think, just the act of joyfulness, right? How do we joyfully love ourselves regardless? 

Jessica: I do. So yes, other organizations that are doing more body liberation, fat liberation work that are less tied to health. So that was something else that was going on within health at every size is just the direct tie to health and the healthism that is inherent when you're trying to prove that your body size is worthy because it's healthy, which was what was happening there. So how do we uncouple those things still and just be fine at whatever body size? 

Danielle: Yeah, I remember in the book you were talking about going to some talk or workshop or conference with some doctor and they were like, “No, that doesn't happen. People who are anorexic, they're not large people.” 

Jessica: They're thin, they're very skinny. Yeah, they're very thin. But the patients that you have, like “You don't have sick patients” was the message. Like you don't actually have patients with eating disorders. And then we were stuck. So yeah, I had to look for other communities. 

Danielle: And that is the sort of gaslighting that happens for a lot of people who show up in health spaces, medical spaces, whatever. They can see you having a perfectly healthy experience and name you unhealthy. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Danielle: I recently in 2021 delivered a two-year-old. Well, not, I didn't deliver a two-year-old, come on now. [both laugh] No, but he's two now. But I delivered a baby in 2021 very unexpectedly. Got pregnant during the pandemic, pandemic baby. Cause that's what everybody did. But the thing is I had a healthy pregnancy. And at one point my OB said, “Oh, well you're having a really boring pregnancy.” And I'm like, as opposed to what? And they tried to make me unhealthy the entire pregnancy because of my age, my race, and my weight.  

So, because of all of these external factors, I was like, no one ever gave me a survey or asked me what my stress levels were like or anything. They just assumed that I was stressed out. I was on the verge of preeclampsia and gestational diabetes, none of which happened or was a problem, anything like that. And then two weeks before my delivery, they sort of doubled down and double teamed me while on a non-stress test, requesting that I do an induction. So, I had to fight, fight, fight for two weeks before the delivery. And then finally had a natural delivery, labor, all of that. Two pushes by the way, I'm like super excited about that. And for me and my doula, my doula was in the room, and she was like, “Yeah!” Cause she was my advocate throughout the whole thing telling me, “Danielle, you are healthy. You are healthy, this baby is healthy, and we are not gonna do, we're not thinking about anything else.” So, shout out to Samsarah Morgan. [laughs] 

But I think it's that. It's the ways in which a person can be either demonstrating, I don't even wanna call it a problem, but just like demonstrating behaviors that are trying to communicate, right? Like in the case of the clients that you were having where they're, it mystifies the doctors, right? They're larger, but they have anorexic behaviors, right? There's that piece. Or then you have people who might be heavy and are just perfectly healthy. There's nothing wrong with them, but because of the structures that are created. 

Jessica: Yeah, people become risk factors. So, I think like you as a person were a risk factor. It was boring otherwise, but because of everything that the doctor saw on paper and in person, they were like, “We are worried because everything you have going on, means that you're inherently a risk factor”, but it was boring.  

Danielle: Yeah, just your body, the way that you show up, especially as Black women, we just are like, according to all of the science, we are a health risk just by being our very being. And so, to push for an acknowledgement of our health, of our wellness in these larger spaces, which we have to be in, because there's very few alternatives. And especially if you have lower income and sort of are reliant on these structures and these systems for your wellbeing, you have to go into these places. You have to be seen by these people.  

And so what are the ways that, from your perspective in your field, what are the ways that people can, I don't know, just find, and I think this goes back to the question that I was asking before, how can people like find a sense of joy, but then also really have what is necessary for them, both individually and collectively, individually, like one-on-one when we're having conversations with medical professionals, but then also in the larger systems, how can we affect those systems? 

Jessica: Can I answer the therapist one first? Because I've been trying really hard. 

Danielle: Yeah. 

Jessica: Okay, because this is therapy here. [laughs] And I'm trying. So, for therapists, I always think of the tendency to join our clients, not our clients, I don't want to say your, because it feels rude, to join clients, we'll just say that, in their distress. And when that's about weight, to just easily like join in internalized pain, internalized fatphobia, and talk about their weight as a problem. So, if that's, one thing that could be different is not joining a client and like reinforcing their own internalized fatphobia would be one, and recognizing of course, the systems and structures that go along with those. So that's just a therapist plug.  

And then for those of us, and who have to interact with medical systems, with a dear friend, a Black friend, also with a chronic illness, a lot of our texts thread is like, what happened to you at the doctor's appointment today? How did it go getting your prescription? Yeah, what nonsense did you have to put up with? So, finding community, I have been, I've found to be essential, disability community, for me, like changed my life. All of my internalized ableism, like overfloweth with, I have a seizure disorder, so I can't drive. And so, rely on my legs or someone to get anywhere and everywhere. And so, what would be a five-minute errand, either for me is, Uber, Lyft or like 20 minutes of bike ride. So having an asking, was one of my primary, like needing help as a Black woman. And somebody with a chronic illness was like impossible. 

Danielle: Like compounded. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Danielle: It's like the whole needing help, just generally as a Black woman. And then having your- 

Jessica: To ask to literally get help like all the time. 

Danielle: Yes. 

Jessica: Yeah. So having community of folks who understand experiences. I talk about resilience and how it can literally kill us, but like how can community build that resilience in another way? So, we become resilient. We are not performing resilience for white supremacy. So having that community, there are some networks of folks who have names of doctors who are more fat friendly providers and people who can advocate, but that's really hard to find, especially if you don't get to pick and choose who your provider is. Self-advocacy is one option. I struggle with that because that like puts the responsibility on the individual, which I don't love. But when it comes to just medical health, there are some resources, Health at Every Size does have health sheets. So, you can learn about your body and your health when you go to the doctor, you can have these key terms. But one also I always recommend, especially for fat folks and trans patients is to have somebody else go with you who will make eye contact with the doctor when the doctor won't make eye contact with the patient or advocating for some, having somebody who will advocate for you or do the yelling into the phone that people shouldn't have to do. So those are some. 

Danielle: Yeah. Well, and it just sounds like really the antidote to everything, which is community. 

Jessica: Having people. Yes. 

Danielle: People. And you know relationships and people who are your people. People who are your people. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Danielle: So, yeah. So, this is something that I wanna talk about ‘cause I think you get to it in like the latter, like third of the book is, which is really about like, well, what can we do? So, I feel like we're already entering into that territory, but centering Blackness, that's what I really wanna talk about. Centering Blackness and you talked about it a little bit in the book, I'm trying to remember what the context was, but I feel like it's just everywhere and in everything. It's become a focal point for many Black women, film activist scholars. We think about Tricia Hersey and the Nap Ministry, Black women of God, Black woman is God project here in the Bay Area. How can this type of perspective be incorporated into the discussion of health and wellness to engage more joy? 

Jessica: Those are so many questions right there. [Danielle: Yeah.] How can it be to engage more? [laughs] Oh, is that two? I feel that every boardroom needs a Black woman laughing loudly. At least one, if not ten. So that would be centering Blackness and joy and Black joy all at the same time. And you, so centering, it's becoming, I'm hoping it's becoming apparent how much is missing when white folks are talking about health and wellness. I can think of one particularly that might be familiar here. There's a podcast that is Maintenance Phase, which has a lot of great facts, but it is very white and it's very of those white- 

Danielle: Maintenance Phase. [Jessica: Yeah!] So it's like, when you're thinking about recovery and it gets to like the maintenance phase. 

Jessica: It's by a white fat activist and a thin gay guy who thinks he knows all about fat people and sometimes speaks for them, but it's fine. It's actually not fine, but they talk about health fads and trends and like why this diet didn't work or why it's silly or this diet book, but it is, saying that it's not intersectional is really simple. There's no complexity there. It is like, what is on paper? Like what was written? There's no like greater impact or societal impact or how this intersects. They're talking about poverty some, but like really white supremacy and how this impacts people who are not white and privileged is really missing. And so, people walk away thinking they learned something, which they might have, but then consider that good enough. Like I have learned about fatness. I have learned about how diets don't work and like check box, you know? And then there's no like need to go and find more information is how I experience it. And so having hiring, having Black folks doing all of the talking would be great. And there are folks who are Black, especially in the eating disorder field, who play the game of whiteness very well and don't question what they've been told. And if we had more radical Black folks who were unapologetic in our joy, you know, at these, in these organizations, at these tables, I really feel like things would be so much better. But Black joy. 

Danielle: Yeah. 

Jessica: Yes. What's, tell me about your pronouns. 

Danielle: You want to talk about my pronouns? 

Jessica: Yeah, I do. 

Danielle: Okay. Well, this is actually a good moment. I think, I don't know when it came to me. It just was like, yeah, this is it. And I'm not going to do anything. Certainly, I think I have been really looking at joy as my resistance, probably for about 10 years. Like before we got to like the whole Black joy parade and the thing that happened a couple of weeks ago, shout out Black joy parade.  

But it was really just about, I know what it was. I was encountering a lot of folks who were called, you know, who are activists, but I feel like the way that activism is sort of packaged, there's a lot of othering and canceling and I believe in righteous anger, like I do. But it often wouldn't go anywhere because it wasn't about collaboration or trying to see where things could go. And so, I was just like, you know, there has to be a more effective way to do this. How can we engage like empathy and joy and hold people accountable? You know? And so that for me was it. I was like, because I'm in a space of being an activist and I like to call myself a teacher-vist maybe just because it was sort of the same reason why you were sort of pushed to write the book, which is why I was like, shout out, Shayna. Is that correct? I'm going back to you. I feel like what we're talking about really is just this opportunity to, this opportunity to be in front of more people, affect more people. And I did have one of my mentors say, you know, that she decided not to be a therapist, although I do love therapy and I'm a therapist and I love my work.  

And so, there's always gonna be that piece. But she was like, I can affect change more thoroughly if I'm teaching the subject. And I was like, you're right about that. So, it was one of the things that I really took in and I just wanna say her name, Denise Boston, who was our first Dean of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion here at CIIS. She had the first office at least. And so, she was basically like, you affect many more people if you can train the therapists. And so, yes. 

Jessica: Talking to more people than just one. 

Danielle: Yeah. 

Jessica: Yeah. You were saying joy and activism and there's gotta be a reason that people keep coming back. You know, sometimes that's connections, community, but you know, when there is something that brings joy, like I wanna show up for you. If it's always just hard, like already existing is hard. But if we're gonna do something that is joyful, like I also-  

Danielle: And fun. 

Jessica: Yeah, like I wanna be there. I want to do that thing. Yes, I fully agree. And yeah, I feel like, you know, leaving the house every day is an act of rebellion. And sometimes I just wanna have fun. Absolutely.  

Danielle: Yeah. 

Jessica: Yes. And in this book, I wanted it to be a fun read. 

Danielle: And it is. It is. 

Jessica: People are trying to say, you know, it's hard, it's fun in the early marketing, but I'm like, I don't think it's hard. I think it's funny. I'm laughing at myself reading my own book. Not even at the book, I'm laughing at myself. At this, yeah, in this book. 

Danielle: Yeah. And I think what's also fun about it is just the storytelling aspect. Just going back to that a little bit. The storytelling aspect, I'm always riveted when I get a chance to hear people's stories and really like understand like what people's lives are like. And to, for me, I think one of the biggest aha moments, and I think we talked about this in our call, because I just was like, I didn't know that people engaged in restriction behaviors in order to fit in because I have never fit in anywhere. Like I can't because of my height, I wear a size 12 shoe. Like there was just nothing that was ever gonna allow me to fit anywhere. So, I just didn't even ever think that I could do something about my body to restrict it, to in order to fit in. And I was like, oh my goodness, people are really, this system creates conditions that make people desperate. 

Jessica: Yes, to survive. 

Danielle: To survive, thank you, to survive, to have careers, to find success, to find friendship, to find love. You talk about that in the book a lot, like that people are restricting so that they can look a particular way so that they can find love. So, it's like this system is embedded into everything. And the more you like pull the string and unravel it, it's like, oh my God, you breathe. So, reading some of the stories or the narratives, I would be reading and I'm like holding my breath and holding my body because I'm like, no, don't do it. Don't do it, don't do it. You know? 

Jessica: Yeah, I do. Lexi’s story is one of them and a really good example of, you know, so she didn't know she had an eating disorder until she had to meet me. And it was not under clinical circumstances. It was because I was mentoring or supporting her. And she just thought it was normal, like, you know, purging and cleanses and stuff like that. Like that's just what she needed to do to win as a gymnast. Yeah, it was the conforming. It wasn't like I'm intentionally gonna restrict in order to be thin. No, it was just like a tactic. 

Danielle: Yeah. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Danielle: And you hear about that in, you know, careers that, that really highlight what the body looks like, you know? But that, you know, again, it's everywhere. You know, it's in order to gain love from a parent or, you know. 

Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah, to in within a family unit, which are getting attention or, you know, people always bring up, you know, when I go home to see my grandmother, or I have to go home to see my parents, you know, the first thing they always comment on is my weight. And then, you know, and then things spiral from there. Yeah.  

Danielle: Yeah. So, families, stop doing that. [both laugh] Stop doing that. Do not start the conversation with an assessment of, you know, what someone looks like. Please don't. Save your relationship. Thanks everybody for coming out and witnessing our conversation. Really appreciate your presence, your time, your energy. Thank you, Jessica.  

Jessica: You're welcome. This was amazing. I'm so glad I got to be in conversation. And in 

community because that's where it happens.  

Danielle: In community.  

Jessica: Yeah.  

Danielle: Always in community. Thanks everybody. Have a good evening. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Izzy Angus, Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, and Nikki Roda. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  

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