CIIS Public Programs Podcast

Transcript

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This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Facilitator and transformational coach Judy Wilkins-Smith believes the key to transformation lies in decoding the patterns embedded in your life—unconscious patterns that you inherited from your family system.In her latest book, Decoding Your Emotional Blueprint, Judy shares a variety of strategies and practices to help people detect hidden and multigenerational patterns, recognize their purpose, and then break the cycles, supporting their ability to create an extraordinary life. In this episode, licensed psychologist and CIIS professor of Community Mental Health Elizabeth Markle joins Judy in a conversation on learning how to break free from the patterns that hold us back.  

This episode was recorded during a live online event on June 15th, 2022. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

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Elizabeth Markle: Welcome Judy. It's great to be here with you today.  

Judy Wilkins-Smith: Thank you, Elizabeth. It's lovely to be with you.  

Elizabeth: Well, I have had so much fun reading your book and I'm aware that we will have folks in the audience who are systems pros, who are all about this. And folks who may be new to the idea. So maybe we could start just a little bit with what is an emotional blueprint? What is a system and how did you find yourself so interested in this that you've made it your life's work? 

Judy: Good. So, let's start with what is an emotional blueprint. Your emotional blueprint, if you look at neuroscience and you look at epigenetics, both at neurosciences, of course, brain. But epigenetics they talk about significant events that create impact on the system that then become blueprints for generations of similar behavior. And your emotional blueprint is the pattern of thoughts, feelings, actions, reactions, all of those pieces that come together to form you. Now, often, it's not just you and the things you say and the things you feel and the actions you take, didn't begin in your mouth or your body, they began in the mouths and bodies of your ancestors and echoed all the way down to you so that you could see what needed to be seen. Give it its place because systems like everything to have a place. And then change what needed to be changed through you, through the chapter, that only you can write. So that's a bit about the work.  

Systems themselves are, gosh, they’re, we’re part of them from before we’re born until probably way after we die. Our primary pattern makers are our family systems, and our secondary really big backups are often our careers. So, what we don't sort out in one we often look to sort out in the other, not consciously, but it's like that lovely gift that keeps giving, right? It just keeps popping up, so, those are systems. And, yeah, our family systems are really interesting things, especially when we want to reject them, because it's not that it makes us good, bad, or indifferent, but it cuts you off from access to some of the stuff you could really use. Yeah.  

Elizabeth: Okay well that is a deep beginning. Here we go. Can you share a little bit about who you are? I know that you're in Texas now but tell us a little bit about how you came to be here doing this work.  

Judy: Gosh. So yeah, I moved over, we moved over for a business opportunity and moved to Texas. My father was killed, and I think I said to you it was a case of either I write books or go crazy, and writing books seemed like a better alternative. So that's what I did, and I was doing research for one of the books and bumped into this work and the person who was doing it said, come and learn the work and I'll help you with the book. So, I went to learn and got zero help with the book, but that turned into, that started with family patterns and that turned into people saying well if you can do it for families can you do it for organizations who are interested?  

And I wound up studying in the Netherlands for a while and then came back. And I think, what happened at, a little bit after that was, I now work with Fortune 500 companies regularly and what they love the most is what they call the constellation, which we'll get to in a while but it's a 3D approach to problem-solving and exploring issues. But then also I began to notice that we would get to the end of a piece of work and people would say, that's great, I've had the insight. I see what's happening. I see what needs to stop, but now what?  

And that's when I began to understand that it was also a highly transformational modality and a very effective one, and because we were using multiple senses, you would have an embodied experience of the issue and the potential. And then people were having these aha moments and shifts. And so that became the emotional DNA. And then, of course, I began to realize. Well, it isn't just emotional DNA you inherit, it's money DNA, relationship DNA, leadership DNA, you name it. It's there. And so that was where the book came about.  

Elizabeth: Beautiful. Well, I would love to hear more about DNA because we're not talking specific chromosomes, we're talking about something else, and I'd love to understand what you mean and how that's the apt metaphor for it. 

Judy: Sure. So, it's very, it's you don't just inherit the physical you also inherit your emotional DNA. What I call emotional DNA is that aggregate of your thoughts, feelings, actions, inactions. It's all of those pieces that spin together to create, I’m always depressed, I’ve always been sad. Where did that come from? Oh, here's where it came from. You inherited that quite nicely. And it's become very well researched as I said in epigenetics, there are three particular studies. There is The Great Dutch Hunger Winter, and there is 9/11, and the Holocaust. And what they do is they study the adaptogens and the genes and the proteins that sit on the genes. And what they've discovered is we could turn those on/off and a lot of that happens because of what we are telling ourselves and then what we’re activating. So that's your emotional DNA. And of course, if you hear it, see it, feel it from generations before you, what we tell ourselves is, well, that's the way it is, and that's the way I should feel. And that's the way I should act until we go, but why? Or I don't want to. And then we start to re rewire and rejig that emotional DNA because the minute you have one new thought, one new feeling, one new action. Now, instead of reliving ancient history, you're in a present that you weren't before and your inevitable future is, of course, no longer your inevitable future. So, you will have just begun to rewire that emotional DNA.  

Elizabeth: That’s so well said, you know, in the community mental health program we’re training therapists, and we support our students in learning to listen to those sort of declarative statements, like, I'm always depressed or people always betray you or good people don't make money or whatever those things are. And it sounds like you have really come to understand those as passed down and routed around via systems.  

Judy: Absolutely, we call that systemic language, and systemic sentences. So, when people say to me, how do I find my emotional DNA? I say to write down all the things that you know about money or relationship, which ever issue it is. Tell me everything that you tell yourself about that. Where did it come from? Where did it happen for you first? What was happening in your life at the time? What did you make it mean about you? What did you make it mean about others?  

So, it's really about listening to that because every single one of us has a unique systemic language. We're tackling ourselves and our systems all day long and we don't know it. I've had people tell me I'm burning up, I'm, I'm always burning up that this burns me. I had one person who kept saying it and eventually I said to her, was there a fire? Was there a catastrophe? And she said well, yes my mom and I outran a volcano, my brother and father did not and so there it’s set. And we do this we just don't realize how much we use language and of course we don't realize how much we use it to call what I, to do what I call. Almost casting a self-spell. The minute we tell ourselves something and the body buys what we're telling it, it goes yep. See, that's the truth. I knew it, I'm dumb, I'm stupid, I'm incapable and that sits there, and it now becomes the truth. Only it's not the truth, it's your truth. You created it and you can change it anytime you want to and that is a potent capability. We just don't always realize we have it.  

Elizabeth: That's wonderful. You know, I'm thinking about, you know, we teach our students about psychodynamic theory and cognitive behavioral theory and they all have language for these right, whether it's unconscious commitments or negative self-talk or automatic thoughts. But really what you're saying is when we sort of buy these consciously or unconsciously, our bodies buy them, our deep psyches buy them. [Judy: Yes.] And then see the world that way and then engage the world in that way [Judy: Exactly.] and then sort of create the [Judy: The truth.] realities of engagement.  

Judy: Yeah. Exactly. That becomes the truth, only, it's really not. It's just what we've done. And of course, the beauty of that is we're so geared to doing it traumatically, right? That we suffer and we struggle, and we do all those things, but if you watch yourself when you really find something that excites you and you're doing it, no matter what you're doing exactly the opposite. And if you keep doing that, you start to lay down neural pathways that are the opposite of traumatic pathways so triumphant pathways and we're super capable of doing that. And when we do that, we do exactly what you described: the lens swings again. Now, we start to talk to those kinds of people and literally attract those kinds of things because that's where our focus is and suddenly, we're going, life is amazing. What happened? You happened. You stopped the toilet talk, and you started the triumph talk. It's as simple as that and the body bought it. 

Elizabeth: Hmm. Yeah. Well, one of themes I'm hoping we can, you know, explore throughout this conversation is of magic and when you talk about it as a self-spell, sometimes people experience this work as magical and I'm hoping we can sort of tease some of that apart as we go. [Judy: Sure, sure.] Yeah. You know, you said something early on, you said systems like everything to have a place. [Judy: Yes.] As though systems are sentient beings that have needs and demands and power. Can you talk to us more about that?  

Judy: Yeah, because it's not just us. In our group, there are lots of implicit rules, the conscience of the system. What are the rules? How do you belong? And there are three basic overarching pieces, which are everybody has a right to belong. In fact, you cannot not belong in your family system. It's literally impossible. You may think you don't want to, but you belong.  

If anybody's right to belong is excluded for any reason whatsoever, we know or notice that someone from a later generation will begin to display a life or circumstances very similar to the one who's been excluded in order to bring attention to that which has been excluded, so it can be re hyphen membered into the system and the system can rest.  

And then of course there in family systems, there are different ones for organizations. But in family system, there is a ranking that goes from oldest to youngest. And it's simply because life flows from oldest to youngest, it doesn't mean, because you're the third child, you're less. It simply means that is my place and when I'm in my place I can receive what comes to me from the system and I can pass on what I need to pass on. If we're out of place, we start finding ourselves feeling too big or too little just not, not quite at home. So yeah, systems have, I guess, almost a systemic DNA as well. It's, I have this character. This is, I have groups of people who will say to me, you don't understand. I come from a culture where we are born to suffer. That's quite a statement to make. Of course, my counter always is, that's great. And how many more generations of that or are you about to be the change agent? We could do with some of those.  

Elizabeth: Yes, you know, I love you saying, re hyphen membered that these patterns that persistently show up, and we address them in one place, and they pop up in another place, there is something that is demanding to be witnessed here. 

Judy: Absolutely, absolutely. And in systems, anytime you create an exclusion, whether an exclusion of a human member or something in the system, it's going to pop up. So, what we say is overtime, details of the excluding event may fade but the symptoms get louder and louder and louder. And they recruit more members until eventually, instead of just having two people having an argument, we've got two countries because it was never resolved. [Elizabeth: Right.] Yeah.  

Elizabeth: So, this can scale up [Judy: Oh yeah.] to the level of nations and even down to a part of myself or an emotion that I am [Judy: Absolutely.] not good with, you know, the thing you what is it that what you resist, persists. The thing that you are unwilling to experience just shows up and shows up and shows up.  

Judy: Exactly. And you know, when you're unwilling to experience something, the question is, is it your experience? Because often we're holding onto emotions or thoughts, for others. I had someone who came in and said to me, I don't cry, we don't do emotions, women, don't do emotions here and I said to, okay, let's look what's the problem? Well, I can't rest, and I can't sleep. And we don't do emotions, and she kept on with the don't do emotion. And eventually I went, and I said to her, let's look where did the emotion start? And it was great grandmother who had lost nine children and she just shut down after. After that there was and then of course you get what's called an unconscious loyalty. Well, if she can't speak, I can't speak. And that goes to the next child and then their children. We don't express emotion. We don't express emotion.  

And so, the beauty of this work is when you dimensionalize it, what we did was we set up the nine children, representatives for the nine children. So, she could see that for the first time, and she started to cry, and she couldn't stop. And she said, what's happening to me? This is not right. I can't stop. And I said to her, how about four generations of, we couldn't feel, now you can. So, it's that change and that often comes with the being able to see it, hear it, touch it.  

I think this is one of the biggest or most powerful pieces of this work, is the minute people actually see, what's, what they've been holding here in front of them. And it's got enough distance that they can see it and touch it. They can talk to it and experience it. It's like, whoa. Suddenly there are so many connections that they had never made that often you'll see anger becomes insigh,t becomes compassion and all sorts of things change. The villain becomes the hero. Things change when we have better insight.  

Elizabeth: Beautiful. So, then it sounds like we're starting to talk about constellations, so for those who might not be familiar, can you bring this to life? What is a constellation and why is it so powerful?  

Judy: Okay, so a constellation is a 3D representation of an issue that you might bring to explore. We always struggle with money. We're all depressed. I want to do X, but I'm always stopped. I can't get further in my career.  

And so, what we'll do is we sit together, and I take a history and listen to when it started, what causes it, how you're experiencing it now, What are the effects? And then we'll look at what the components are of that issue. So, let's say, for example, it's well in my family, we struggle with X, okay. Let’s find a representative. Can you pick a representative out of the group at a live event? One for mom, one for fad. One for your brother, one for your sister, maybe one for yourself.  

Okay. And then I say, now what I want you to do is give me a spatial representation of that of the relationships. So, you may put dad in the far corner of the room, mom in the center, the kids altogether. All, they may all be scattered but simply with that the client goes. Oh, oh, I never realized I was always in the middle of everything but that's right. I'm always trying to get everybody to belong. So, they start making the connections immediately because they can see it.  

Now we also know that as human beings we’re very capable of transferring emotions onto other objects or inanimate objects and we know that we are highly capable as human beings of sensing into each other's systems. So, what we found in this work is I’ll ask questions, I may say to the representatives does anybody need to move? And you may find somebody moving and they go, I'm not here, I need to be there, and the person will say how'd they know that? We're really good at sensing into each other’s systems. If you think of something like one of the shootings that happened in everybody goes, oh, what are you doing? Those mirror neurons are working overtime and we're very capable of feeling a similar feeling and so we’re remarkably accurate. We just haven't been taught that this is a modality, so we have them spatially represented in 3D. We have a client starting to make connections. I'll have listened as we're talking to all of the language that they're using, and I always say I use their language for them. Not against, for them. See I'm no good. I'm always on the outside, hold on a minute. Did you tell me that you were a really, really good consultant? Well, yeah, hmm. So, look what you got from being able to be the observer. Sometimes we need observing.  

So, you also start to see that, it's not that we are cursed. It's not that we have struggled. It's that we also keep forgetting that we develop great capabilities as a result of any of these. And we also forget that there is always, always no matter how bad the smash, there is always a gift, it's simply waiting for you to see it and use it, and in the constellation by using movement, history, time, distance, and language. What we do is we know that if you come into this issue and I'll talk about principles in a minute, but if you come in with an issue around belonging. We know that what we're looking for is to end it with that belonging. So, why couldn't you, and how can you. If there's an imbalance of giving/receive. Do you give too much? Oddly enough, the one who gives too much often ruins a relationship. So, what does that balance look like? Are you out of order? Which would be the third one. In other words, are you too big or too small and people go. What do you mean? Well, did you have to grow up really fast and take care of things that weren't yours? Or was there a sibling who needed more attention and you had to get small. And so how do we restore that order?  

And by understanding systemic work and it's dynamics, and using that movement and using that language in service of the client, they're able to take themselves from limitation to insight into transformation and then lock that in and because they're standing in the middle of it, they’re rewiring as it's happening. So, the body is having all of these feelings, all of the senses are inputting, and you know yourself, if something is a felt experience. If you look at something that's incredibly you go, oh my goodness. You wire it in in the moment. It's not going to disappear. It's the antithesis of the traumatic experience. Hmm. So that's what a constellation is.  

Elizabeth: That sounds like you've really taken this work to its next step of evolution because 15 years ago, 20 years ago when I was training to be a therapist, we did family sculptures, and we would use people and sculpt them, and I remember very clearly sculpting my family and going. Yep, there it is. That's how it was. That's how it is. And then we all kind of disbanded and that was that and it sounds like you're moving all the way through that to something beyond therapeutic.  

Judy: I would say yes, I would say it's educational, and it's embodied. And what happens is it's not sculpting. This was where Bert Hellinger, who's the father of this work, this was where he was, he had. And who knows how we had these eureka moments, right? But he didn't sculpt, he said to them instead of sculpting, I want to see what happens if I simply allow them to move. And what he, what he then stumbled into his people would say. Oh, my goodness. That is exactly what my father would do or how did that person know to say those words? That's what my dad would say there is a wisdom within the system and we're now beginning to mine that and that means hands off the sculpting. Let people do what they need to do. It's like at the beginning of this work it used to, there was always the sense of put your hands gently on the representative’s back, guide them to a position and then we'll take it from there and I was like don't do that. You're shutting off some of the information. Your client may want to push that person in, and it gives you information. It gives you a question to ask, so let them do it the way they need to. And then, let's watch the movement.  

Elizabeth: I love it. So, I'm wondering if you can tell us a story about a constellation that sort of came to life? I think, you know, this idea that neutral representatives who don't know the person, they don't know the family, they don't know the history, they've just volunteered to be part of a constellation, find themselves really moved in unpredictable ways that reenact a family or a systemic dynamic. Can you, can you tell us about this?  

Judy: I can. I can. I have, I mean, lots of them, but one in particular that I think I probably will never forget was doing one for a girl who came in and said, I want to be really good at my career. I really want to- I want to shine. I know I can do it, I can't do it. Okay, so who can and who can't? And that was the first question I asked, and she went, oh, well, I can't because we're not allowed to shine and I said, Okay, who's we? Well, Dad. Why not? He was a Vietnam War vet, he went to Vietnam, he came back and in their town, they were actually, they were forced out because he was a Vietnam vet, he would, they were forced to leave and they lived for a long time in disgrace with a lot of threats and a lot of death threats and so they learn to live a very small life and a very quietness, and shining was not a good idea because you can imagine.  

And so, I said to her, let's have a look at all of that. Let's just take a look. So, she picked a whole lot of representatives and she picked someone for her father, and I saw the guy jolt and I said to him, are you, are you willing to stand in and represent him? Yeah, I can do that, and he went through It and his jaw almost set, and he shook and then he started to cry, and he just stood there, wringing his hands and saying, I did the best I could. We did what we were told, and it was flowing through him.  

Well, we get to the end of it, and she said to me, first, I can feel my brain and body rewiring. Secondly, I didn't know that this guy's name was X, which is my father's name. I just knew he looked like him and he felt like him. And the guy looked at her just sat down on the floor with a bump and he went as white as a sheet, and he said you don't know what you've done for me today. And she said, what do you mean? He said my father was a draft dodger. I sat on the other side of this, I've never understood people who fought in Vietnam. My heart will never be the same again. I will never be the same again. And the two of them just stood and hugged. And she said, now, somebody from the other side sees me. And it was just this whole piece that came together.  

So that was, I think one that was, and he said to, he said to me, when you asked me to represent, I nearly left the room because it's impossible to feel something from somebody else and then he said to me and then I felt it all. And we're very we just so capable of doing exactly that. And I love skeptics. They're my favorite because I don't say a word. I let them stand in it. It's what we call the knowing field which I'm guessing is pretty much the collective conscience or conscious or whatever we want to call it. And it is very, it's palpable and people haven't been exposed to it and when they are, you see, jaws hit the floor and they go. Wow. But they're never the same after that because they know that they have a connection to, or a way to sense into that, which of course, is helpful to them after that.  

Elizabeth: Wow. Yeah, Carl Jung would have called it the collective unconscious, [Judy: Oh, the collective unconscious! Yeah.] Yeah, he mapped it. He said that humans were like, waves that rise up and have a life form, and then fall back into the sea and that in, there is contained all of the experiences and all the patterns and all the ripples.  

Judy: Bingo. Now, this is, this is beautiful because the knowing field is what we call it, and it is the collective unconscious. You're quite right, it is the repository of everything that has ever been, not been, all the actions, inactions, all the sentences, all the language except that this time it now has a way to show itself. And it now has a way to say this is how I was, this is how I was off service, this pattern that I am was once a solution for something, but it's outlived its usefulness, what can you add? What new pattern can you bring? And so, I always say to people, you can do your own work, it's all about you, and it's not about you, it's all about the system and yes, it's all about you.  

Elizabeth: Yeah, there's something that makes then our humanity, a little less personal, you know, sometimes people have reluctance to doing family or systems work thinking oh we're just going to blame the parents, right? It's gonna be all the parents’ fault and what you're describing is a journey from anger to insight and then to compassion and then liberation. 

Judy: Absolutely. And when people say to me, hey it's so it's my mom's fault, I go, oh yeah not so fast. This is what happened, and this is the event. You better thank your mom because who you are right now, either in reaction to or collaboration with is because of your mom and your dad, whether you knew them or not. Something ignited, either an add-on or a repeat of or a different, but one way or another, you don't get to skip saying thank you, sorry.  

Elizabeth: That’s so gracious of you. You wrote something about parenting in your book. You wrote, “When you fail to do your own work, you leave it to your children to pick up and repeat the incompletions that you might address.” Yeah. How do you guide parents around this?  

Judy: I had a lovely, lovely gentleman who came in and he was struggling with his father. And I said, we talked about it and talked about the kids and all of that sort of, didn't make not a bit of difference. So, I said, okay, pick someone to represent your father. So picked someone I said, stand opposite him and have a look at him. He said, I will not look at that. I will not, I will not look at him. I do not wish to interact with him, I will not. So, I said to him, do you have children? Yeah, I've got two boys. I said good. Can you pick two representatives for the boys, please? So, he did that, and I put them behind him and I said. Now, could you turn around and look at the boys, big smile. He said, yeah, I can look at the boys. I said good. Now, would you please tell them which one of them is going to reject you like you've rejected your dad? And he went, “ahhh” and he spun straight around and said I'll talk to you, because that is what will happen. What we exclude is going to repeat so you want to reject your dad. Good luck. I'll see your kids in 10 years’ time. No worries.  

Elizabeth: Oh, my goodness. Okay. You know, you talk about the difference between being sort of possessed by these patterns or being possessed by these sentences of doom, as you call them, that this is how life is. This is how people are, this is how I am and then the power of naming them or sort of ghost busting them of saying ah this is what I've been living with, and I hereby have some choice. Can you speak more about that process?  

Judy: Sure, that's called acknowledging what is. So, acknowledging what is, is also one of the foundations of this work, if you want to move somewhere, you can't get anywhere until you acknowledge what is right now. This is what's there, exactly, the way that it is. And when you can do that without wishing for it to be different, just simply naming it. You don't need to judge it, just this is the way it is. Now you can start making choices and you can look at it and say, so I'm stupid at math. Oh, really am I stupid at math? Wait, mom told me we were all stupid at math. So, are we all stupid at math or is it that somebody else was not so smart at math and I bought into it? Hold on a minute is this mine, or is this not? So, it's really about ghostbusting that, or myth-busting it all the time. Is it true? Is it true now? Does it need to stay true? What do I want to do with this? And if you have something you're not good at, all it is is you haven't focused on it long enough to be good. The end. You don't get to skip that.  

Elizabeth: I so appreciate the candor in your approach. That's both empathic and doesn't let people off the hook [Judy: Not at all.] for creating the lives they want.  

Judy: In fact, what did somebody say to me? You're so gentle until I realize you've just called me out. [laughs] Well, yeah, you’re calling yourself out and really do you want to live an average life, if that's not what you were born to live? Now, average is also subjective. What's average for me may not be average for you but really do you want to live your version of an average life if you have so much more that's possible?  

Elizabeth: Mm. Mm. Yeah. You know, you've done this work and we've been talking about intrapersonal things and interpersonal things, right, within relationships and families. [Judy: Sure.] And you know, many of the things that we see, especially in the community mental health are complex interplays of psychological and physical phenomena, right? We see chronic disease. We see injuries. We see persistent complaints, that physicians can't figure out. Can you speak a little bit to how you, how you disentangle and how you see that?  

Judy: Yes, when a physician sends me a patient that’s exactly for that reason, they've run the tests, they've done everything they can. It's not happening and there is no rational excuse for it and that's when we go looking into the system. So, there is, there is one in fact, two, but one I had somebody who came in and they had an arrhythmia and I know that I'm not the only one who's experienced this, other facilitators in this work have had that too.  

But experiencing arrhythmia, they couldn't find any reason for it and so I said to, did you lose, did you lose a parent? Did you lose anybody recently? My dad, about four months ago. What happened? He had a heart attack and he died. Okay. How have you done since that? I struggle. So, I said, okay, have you said goodbye to dad? She said I can't. I said no and so you've got him in your heart, your heart isn't just beating for you, it's beating for two of you. And so, what we did was, we separated, took a representative and separated them out. She got to say to him, I miss you. This is hard for me. But my heart's beating for both of us now and I can't do that. I have children, that's your heart and this is mine and I can give you a place in my heart, but I can't keep my heart beating for you too. Done.  

So, there are those, then we have others where we have a sentence that says, you know, all of the, all of the men drop at 50 and like flies, they all drop at 50 because my goodness that's the family recipe. Well, really? Yes, they all get diabetes and then they get sick and then they die. So, we now know that when that happened to your grandfather, we didn't have the medicine we do now. Do you have to follow that recipe? Is there something different you can do? Can you do it for the next generation as well? So, it starts to make you aware of what you can do in medical situations that maybe they couldn't do back then, that we've unconsciously locked into and seen as a death sentence when it's really not anymore. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, it's so empowering and if I can play devil's advocate with you for a minute? [Judy: Of course.] You know, as I listen, I'm thinking about all these sort of personal and familial dynamics playing out and the social structures, right? The societal level dynamics of racism and power and privilege and oppression, and all of these things that also have to be playing a role. And I'm wondering, how do you hold and account for that? You may be working with one person, or one family, but there are massive social forces at play and I’m hoping you will talk about that.  

Judy: Yeah, you just bumped into meta patterns. So, not only do you inherit all of that emotional DNA. But yes, the societal DNA, and all of that other DNA is coming down as well. Why? I think the first and most important question is why? Why does it keep circulating? It's asking to be re hyphen membered. Where did we all have a place?  

And there's another piece. Remember, I said to you, everything and everyone wants to belong. If we look at the societal pieces, if we're going to look at something like race, there's a place for everybody. Everybody. We cannot say bad white supremacist, bad Black person, bad whatever it is. You cannot. For us all to come together. It means I see you. I'm a white supremacist. I see you. I'm a Black person. I see you. We have to be able to see each other. And then to hear, what is my experience in this body? What is your experience? What is my fear? What is your fear? What is my hope? What is your hope? But we don't, we say, well, they're wrong, and I'm right, so, we're not doing that. And then we wonder why were tangled up in hatred.  

We’re escalating an emotion that is saying, will you please see me? Will you give me a place, and can you give me a different face? Can I look differently? Intense hatred is often asking for a place to belong so that I no longer have to fear, and I can once again flow, love. That's all, that's all. We just haven't taken those steps.  

But there are many meta patterns. War is a meta pattern, gender. A meta pattern. And the other place, or the other mistake that we make is we go, well, we're all women. It's time that the men get out the way or the old white men get out of the way, and I go, hold on a minute, being a systemic facilitator. The first thing you do is sit in the place of the one who's being excluded. They did an awful lot to create what we've got now. It's not like we can just demonize that piece and say but we'll eat that slice of cake. It all comes together so what can we take that’s really good and say thank you? What can we rest that served its time and wants to rest? And what can we change with gratitude and grace? And say because Of all of you, we have a turn to do it differently. We can do something remarkable, but you don't forget to acknowledge what came first, and you don't demonize.  

We do that with eras as well. Oh, I mean do you know how they used to spank kids? Yeah. Back in the day capital punishment was not a bad thing. It was spare the rod, spoil the child. Now because we have a different lens, we can do it differently. That doesn't make them wrong. It means we've just taken a different step, okay. And the only reason you took it, was you looked at that and went, oh, I don't like that, what could I do differently? So, thank you to what you saw, that didn't feel good because it gave you a different thought, and then you did something else. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, as you speak about this, I'm really getting the difference between exclusion and resting. [Judy: Yeah.] It's subtle but it's profound.  

Judy: Yeah, and if you rest it, it becomes wisdom, the wisdom of the ancients isn't just a nice idea. It's a very real thing. What did they do with that I shouldn't? What did they know that I should? What can I take that's incredible? What about what resilience did they have? What happened back in 1918 when they had the flu? Where were- or are we going to keep rinsing and repeating? So, there's a great deal of wisdom and we're foolish when we exclude things or exclude history. History has a ton to teach us and to offer.  

Elizabeth: Right. That's not that we can't set boundaries, [Judy: Not at all.] that we can't say, this stops here. I'm a no to this.  

Judy: Yeah, no, this stops here, guys you took it. It's this. What got you here, Won't get you here. It's that simple. Thank you. This needs to rest now. It's done. This needs to start now, it's flying. And, and the beautiful thing about it is that each needs the other. The pattern resting needs this one for a future. This one needs this one for wisdom and the history. So, each is in service of the other.  

Elizabeth: Okay, well then let's think big here together. If you had your way and an infinite number of facilitators or funding or whatever you needed, what do you see as possible with this work?  

Judy: Okay, so let's think big. If I had infinite facilitators, who I would love to train by the way, because my dream is, a thousand people at a time. What do I see? I see thousands and hundreds of thousands and millions of people finally realizing they are victim no more. Finally realizing they don't have to stay stuck. Finally realizing they have something remarkable to offer the world and that they're not limited beings. Finally acknowledging that history has a beautiful place, and we should be thankful for every step that came before us and finally seeing millions of people in gratitude to the world in happiness because they know they had the ability to do something and millions of people who would quit whining and start shining. [Elizabeth: Of all the things I thought you were going to say. That wasn't it!] That's it! I would also say that you would, people would realize, there's no such thing as a train wreck and they are absolutely remarkable beings and lives if they know how to see them.  

Elizabeth: Okay, then. Well there is a line in your book that I actually stopped reading because I wanted to hear you speak about it. You wrote, “imagine if the United Nations…” can you finish that? And talk about that for us?  

Judy: So, I don't even remember what I said there. But my imagining was, imagine if the United Nations were to actually depict the world, were to actually constellate the world, were to actually all stand up and take their place in the world.  

A: in order of history, B: in order of contribution, C: in order of hopes and dreams. Imagine if instead of shouting at each other, we started to look at each other and give each other a place and give each other an acknowledgement. Because again, if we see it and experience it. Once you've looked something in the eye, it is very difficult to look away. Yeah, there is just so much possibility, it's a whole world that we didn't know that was there that we haven't experienced before.  

We've literally with this work, you literally make the invisible visible and the unconscious conscious right in front of you. And once you learn to do that at home, you will also learn, there's no such thing as judgment. There isn't a place for it because the more you zoom out and the more you zoom out, and the more you zoom out, the more interesting the context becomes, and you begin to see that everything indeed has a place and that everything is in service of you. It always was and it always will be.  

Elizabeth: Hmm...well, I like your vision and I'm curious about how we get there. So, are there any limitations to this work? Is there anyone for whom you'd say, this is not the right approach? Or it doesn't work with these things? Or- is there any caveats because thus far, this sounds like a miracle drug.  

Judy: Well, I would say, you know, it's like, I'm going to be clear. It's like with any transformational modality, we always go. Oh, that's woo-woo. Or that’s out there, no it's not. But it is in your hands and what you do with it is going to determine how far you go with it. It's a little bit like taking one tablet and going well, that diet didn't work. Or taking one class and going oh no, that didn't. That didn't work. No, this is an entire language. And an entire way of being. 

And let me answer your other question. Do I see limitations for this work? I will let you know if I find some. [laughs] I haven't, I have worked with some of the stickiest CFOs in the business. Where I walk in, one of my favorite guys. I walked in and he said they've told me that, you know, how to dimensionalize issues, I've been sitting with one for two years. I want to understand this but none of that woo-woo constellation stuff. I am not interested. And I said, okay, so we sat down, we explored the issue. And I said, would you mind if we just write down each piece on a piece of paper, each participant or each member of this issue because I'm super visual. So, he said okay we could do that. So, we wrote it down on pieces of paper and I said, let’s just put an arrow on that so I can see where it's facing. Okay. And then I looked at it and I said, okay, I'm super visual. Can we put it on the floor so I can just take a look? Lay it out for me, the way that it is sort of in the business way for you. So, he lays it all out in the business way. I said to him, Okay, so we've got these, these teams are close. These teams are not, these ones are looking in. Those ones are disconnected. Is that, is that accurate? Yes, no, no, wait, we need to move this up. In two minutes, he's moving all of these pieces around and sort of looks at it. So, you ask me this piece and you told me that that particular group just don't get it, but you've got them facing away and they're all the way over on the other side not connected to any of this. And he said, oh…maybe that's why they're disengaged. So, we do this whole piece, and it takes him about two hours. And he goes, I've just solved what I couldn't solve in two years in an hour and a half. And then he looked at me and goes, you did a constellation, didn't you? I went, yep.  

No. It's- I think the thing that I love is that it's super logical and deeply transformational, so it's, you can literally by sitting a class with people what we'll do is we'll do a constellation and then I will ask the client to please leave the room and then we debrief it. What did you see? Which principle was at that was engaged? What language did you notice? When did you see a shift in that client?  

Now, the other interesting piece about a constellation is not only is the client getting their work done but, and this is very also well studied and well noted. Every single person in that room is getting a piece of work done at the same time and they will tell me that. Well, I noticed this, and I got this, and this popped for me.  

So, it is a gift that keeps on giving because it's engaging so many senses and it's teaching us to move out of just here and engage everything that we've been given. And that doesn't just mean your, these senses. It means your gut. Your heart. It's never that you have a closed mind, it's that you have a closed heart. The minute that you get a fright, your heart closes and says, not allowed! And the brain shuts down and goes into survival. And that gut goes [grunt] and it's only when you feel safe that the heart goes [sighs] and opens, and the brain goes oh we could do stuff here! And the gut goes, oh, we’re on board again, let's go! So, when those three are in alignment, we have action.  

Elizabeth: Well, I’m enrolled. So, for folks who might be interested in learning to do this work, whether there are therapists or coaches, or just people who want to make a difference. What does it look like to become competent and skilled in this?  

Judy: Well, first of all, it's usually a year long. And there are four modules that you do, one of which is at Disney World, the fourth one is always at Disney World. Yes, because that I always say to people, look at what somebody did when they didn't quit. In the face of all the systemic language and pressure, they kept going and this is what I want you to experience. So, I have emotional DNA, relationship DNA, leadership DNA. And then we have, whichever one, I decide for Disney. Last year, it was money DNA, which I love. And then this year, its capability and resilience DNA.  

So, and they're each stand-alone modules. I make sure that in every module you're still picking up the basics. And in fact, attendees will by about the third one. They're going. Do we have to go through the principles again? Yes, because I want it locked into your body. I want it in your bones. So, we make sure that they get that theory. Every time they go.  

And then it's learning that you have a very different set of capabilities and we’re about to activate those. So, for you to begin facilitating, what you need to do is you do the four modules, and we now have a one day, that they are also taught. So, it's four modules and then there's that one day. And in that one day, we teach them how to teach or how to facilitate. But, but even during the four modules, I'm continually breaking people out into groups and saying good. Every single one of you is going to facilitate, every single one of you is going to be a client, because you're only as good as the work that you're doing.  

So, all of the time, you're doing your own work, you're facilitating, you're doing your own work, you're facilitating. And in between you're getting the theory. Commonly, people will tell me at the end of, at the end of the day, I'm juiced. I'm ready to go. And I go, what are you doing tonight? Maybe we're going to just go and sit quietly because you're using, your using faculties. You're using senses that you haven't used before. But after a while those are so activated you look at the news or you watch people in your- you don't go. Oh that's yuck! You, instead you go, huh? I wonder what's happening in that system?  

Elizabeth: Yeah, I imagine that once you're seeing the world this way you can't unsee it.  

Judy: No, you really cannot. And in fact, it's quite funny because I always also cannot be on a jury. I can't be on a jury. I have no ability to judge because I've got both sides and I must hold the space for both professionally. That's how it is. And you find that you're judging is… Yes, you know what's right and wrong. But in terms of judging people, nope.  

Elizabeth: Mm-hm, right? Because you're seeing behind that person [Judy: Absolutely!] and all of the sources, the legacy essentially.  

Judy: Exactly. Exactly. We think that we are good, bad, skilled, or indifferent. It's not, we. We don't know who we are until we know what lives in our system and what belongs to us, and what does not. A high percentage is inherited stuff, it's not us. One way that you can know whether it’s you or not is also: if you're frustrated, mad, sad, irritated, limited, and you're feeling crunched that's often the multi-generational patterns and the multi-generational system. But when you get inspired and you feel like you're on fire and you've got your own voice, That's you! And if you invest in that, it'll pull you past all of the excuses and all of the reasons you can't and into who you are and what you have to add.  

Elizabeth: You know, I'm reminded of the internal family systems work and what they call self-energy, right? That part of you that feels calm, clear, capable, aligned.  

Judy: Yes! that's it, that's it. And when, and again, when you say, this is me, and you get it, in other words, you do that self-spell thing again. Of course, I can do this, I'm doing this. And you've got enough energy because you've got to build enough energy to take you beyond the systemic trance or the multi-generational patterns. Otherwise, you'll have the sort of thing where it's I'd really love to stop smoking. But everybody in my family does it and it's just so easy. When you go, I'm going to run that Marathon. Which means I really cannot do the smoking thing anymore. Which means, sorry, guys, I love you dearly, but we're not doing that. I am invested in that. And you're feeling it, that can't hold you anymore. And a lot of our work is building beyond the systemic trance.  

Elizabeth: Yeah, I so appreciate that. I had a teacher once who said, “Desire is the only power-source potent enough to affect change.”  

Judy: He was almost right, desire… he was almost right, desire is great, but if the system is strong enough it will go not so fast and pull you back. It’s desire coupled with intention, coupled with an emotion of gratitude or whatever it is and a clear, clear I'm going.  [Elizabeth: Yeah.] Otherwise, desire, you can desire all day long.  

Elizabeth: Right. And then it sounds like the precursor is being straight about what is. [Judy: Totally!]  Here is how it is, right. [Judy: That's it. Boom!] At Open-source Wellness, the health and wellness nonprofit that I lead, we talk about truth, desire, and habit, right? That you have to be absolutely honest with yourself and somebody else about here's how it is. Right? I eat a lot of chocolate that is just so. And then what is it that I actually want, right? What's an anchor of desire that pulls me through. [Judy: That’s your important.] Right. And then, how do we translate that into habits, right? How do we- how do we translate desire into actual behavior?  

Judy: Exactly. And we're capable of that all the time. Think about something as simple as I want to go to Cancun for vacation. We know how to do this. Yeah. But you know you shouldn't do that. Because you should be saving money. I'm going to Cancun for vacation. Yeah, but is that sensible? I'm going to Cancun. I can't wait to go to Cancun. Do you know what I'm doing there? I'm going to go that little shop down the way and I'm going to have this, this, this, and this see ‘ya! Boom. So, you're yes, you've got to have enough of an excitement, or a goal, or purpose over here, that forward anchor. We call it forward anchoring. When you've got a forward anchor, nothing's going to stop you. But you have to build that forward anchor. And you have to first deal with what's holding you back here.  

Elizabeth: Yeah, so exciting. I promised myself that I would ask, what's up with you and Disney? Tell me about what's going on there.  

Judy: Okay, so well you can see I've got Disney here, right? [Elizabeth: I can.] Okay, so when I was nine years old, Disney died. And I can remember sitting, it was in a white car. We were heading home, and I burst into tears. It came across the radio. And I said, well if there's no more Disney, who's going to make magic? And everybody was dead silent. And I went, well then, I'm going to. And it just kind of stuck. And I'd always loved, loved, loved Disney.  

So, when I moved over to, to the US, we moved over with the clothes on our back. We had not much of anything. We went to Disney World because we had timeshare from South Africa. And I think I cried for about a week, everybody's laughing not me, I'm crying. I keep looking at this and it hit me so deeply. It was, look what you're capable of doing. Look what a human being is capable of doing. Look at that. Do you understand there is magic here? And I've come to understand that, yes, there really is magic. It's the best of who we are in fast forward.  

And so, I said one day, when things are really good and I'm on my feet, I'm going to buy timeshare there. Because then I get to belong there, and I'm going to teach there. So, I walked in, and I said to them, one day when we were visiting, what would it cost for me to come teach here? and they named an amount and I went [sound of shock] and all of my you can't, you want won’t, all of those things came up, and I went, forget it. I'm doing it. So, I took a deep breath and I thought you’re just going to have to fly. And I taught for the first time, and I've been teaching ever since. And then I bought timeshare.  

There is so much that happens right at Disney. They understand humanity at levels we don't even begin to understand that they understand that they understand. If you look at movies like Encanto, you can look at that as a cute little movie, or you can really look at that and see what they're saying. And there is so much. It's like they've created a cauldron for magic.  

We were standing in the Magic Kingdom. There was a young guy about, not more than about, 23-24. He'd come back from the war. He was in uniform; he had a hook for a hand, and he had a prosthetic leg as well. He looked miserable. Down, down, down. And your heart kind of sinks. And we were watching the parade come round, and round the corner came Captain Hook. And he looked at the guy, and he looked at him, and he ran over to him, and he hooked with this young guy, and he started to dance. And you could see the young guy rewiring in the moment. You could see him telling himself I'm not dead. There is something for me. Disney, Disney I think allows the magic that we are. I think that's what I love. They give permission for the magic that we really are as human beings. And so, yeah. My phone is Disney. My necklace is Disney. My watch is very Disney. And when people invite me, they will, often say come teach us a little bit of magic, and I say, it's called the soul, and we'll go do that. So that’s Disney.  

Elizabeth: I love that, it's called the soul. Yeah, wonderful. Well, we're coming towards the end of our time, and I wonder what have we not asked you that you would like to share about, there's so much in this book that we couldn't cover. What feels important to wrap us up here? 

Judy: I would say the most important thing, and it’s really super critical, You are never stuck. You're never stuck. You may tell yourself you are, you are never stuck. You are highly capable, you have a great brain, and a great body, and a great system. And if you use those you'll get where you want to be. You are an adventure. Oh, my goodness! You are so not just doing life. You are an alive, living adventure. It's really important that you get that. And the world, it's not cliche, the world really needs what you have. 

Elizabeth: I feel what a stand, what a commitment you are to people living with full vitality, full verve, full enactment of what their soul is calling to do in this lifetime. 

Judy: Thank you. [Elizabeth: Yeah.] That's nice to hear. You know, I will say something to people who struggle. When my dad was killed, people say to me, well you had an easy, charmed life. I've had a wonderful life. Does it mean it's easy and charmed, no. But it's wonderful and it's an adventure. And so, people would say to me, how can you say that your father being killed had a gift? It did. If he hadn't have given me one final gift, which was to say, it's your turn to do something, I could have been very complacent, sat at home, written some nice stories, who knows? His final gift was to say to me, go do something. So, when we want to say life has been difficult, no. Life has been interesting. What are you going to turn it into? 

Elizabeth: Thank you, Judy. Thank you so much for your time, for your contribution to the world that is this book. And your contribution to me here because I like the idea of answering how are you are, how's life? With it's an adventure. I'm on the adventure.  

Judy: And thank you. You were wonderful to talk to. I had such fun. It doesn't feel like it should be coming to an end. 

Elizabeth: I know, I know. It's a joy talking with you. Well, I'm sure you will have folks reaching out to you wanting to learn more. Thank you for the resources that you provide, and I want to make a plug for the book. It's really, it's experiential. It's really not just a theory. There are activities and systemic steppingstones, and all kinds of ways for you to really make this work your own even if you can't dive immediately into constellations work with Judy here. Okay, anything else you want to say before we close?  

Judy: No, I'm just honored to have been with all of you and I'm so grateful that there are people watching. Guess what guys, you just walked through a one-way door, I'll see you soon. 

Elizabeth: Amen. Alright, thank you so much. Thank you all.  

Judy: Take care. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Izzy Angus, Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, and Nikki Roda. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
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