CIIS Public Programs Podcast

transcript

[Theme Music]  
 
This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. Through our programming, we strive to amplify the voices of those who have historically been under-represented. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.  
 
[Theme Music Concludes]  

Charles: Hey Lama Rod. 

Lama Rod: Hey girl what's up? 
 

Charles: Let's just get right to it huh?  

[both laughing] 

Lama Rod: Let's chop it up, let's get to it.  

Charles: You know as I was thinking about what to say to you and how to start this conversation, I kind of feel like we've been having just one long conversation throughout our friendship and we initially, and I should perhaps provide some background… I think how we initially thought the conversation would go we started talking about it maybe a month ago, a lot has changed since we initially started thinking through this conversation including the events of last week and the violence that we all witnessed with the siege at the Capitol. Many of us have I think struggled to think through what's happening. I think a lot of us have even sought to find meaning for ourselves for our communities. Of course, there's a lot of anger and rage which I think is part of the spirit of this evening and I was just wondering, to get us started if you could provide just some reactions to all of what's happening. 

Lama Rod: Yeah, you know it's this is a time of things falling apart, you know, and I call this time the apocalypse, you know? Or at least an apocalypse right, but this is the apocalypse means unveiling you know it means revelation actually. The truth is being revealed right, and the truth takes training to be in relationship with you know, and not all of us have the training to be in a relationship with the truth nor are we interested in doing the work to train to be in a relationship to the truth, so we're going to be having very different experiences across the board, you know?  

And you know, and everything that's coming up for us as we're living through this moment, as we've lived through the past years, we continue to live into this new year everything that's arising for us is supposed to be arising, right. The rage, the anger, the despair, the sorrow, the terror, the surprise, the shock, the utter disappointment, the trauma. All that is supposed to be happening. But the question that we should be wrestling with is can I really be in relationship to what's arising no matter how strong or ambiguous it may seem, right? No matter what arises I can I touch it, can I be with it, can I hold space for it right? Because that's going to determine how I enter into an experience of liberation.  

For me, you know I would just say for me you know people look at me and they like they go oh you know after all these years you know you should be you know you should be enlightened by now. You shouldn't be angry, you shouldn't be traumatized, you know? But [sighs] but my experience is the experience of being human, and so to be human means that I experience fear, that I experience trauma, that I experience rage, I experience disappointment, and my work as a practitioner is to simply show up to those experiences and to allow those experiences to move through my mind, to move through my body in whatever way is appropriate. 

 
Charles: I really appreciate you taking us there because part of what I've struggled with is what does it mean in this moment to be an activist, to be a leader, to be a movement leader and to be able to be vulnerable, to have a sense of despair. I know one of the things I've often felt is that when you're a leader people sometimes… you're in this amazing position to be able to provide comfort, to be able to provide answers. But what happens when you're not sure? What happens when you know you confront your own feelings of despair, and how do you get up and get in front of that computer and also what does it mean? I mean one of the decisions I've made for myself is as a leader I want to be vulnerable, I don't want to be robotic, I don't want to disconnect myself from my own humanity and sometimes it can be messy, and you know sometimes you show up, but I was wondering if you could just kind of react - imagine there are you know folks that might lead organizations or might be in activist spaces like, what does it mean to be able to both have a sense of agency and empowerment but also still be able to be vulnerable and be connected as you say to your humanity? 

Lama Rod: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know and you know I'll start off by saying that like vulnerability is the one of the tools that we use to dismantle systems of oppression, of power and hierarchy, right? You know, vulnerability helps me to be open, but more and more specifically it helps me to adapt, it helps me to be fluid right, it helps me to push against experiences of rigidity, of settling. You know, of getting stuck right you know but that vulnerability is essentially telling the truth of what we're experiencing in the moment.  

And I think when we talk about leadership you know there are many people who practice the kind of leadership style where it's the opposite of vulnerability, it's actually a performance of a kind of stability, or a performance of a kind of shut downness, you know that no matter what happens you keep going, right? You don't show weakness, like you don't you don't let people see you stumble or have doubts right. And I think, I mean that's the kind of leadership that I choose not to practice because that's harmful for me, that's an act of violence against myself. Like, when I can't just show up in public and say you know what this is how I'm feeling, you know this is what's happening for me and you know what I can't help you right now, actually. I think one of the bravest things that we can do as leaders is to set a boundary and to let people know that like yeah, I can't do more than this you know because I am terrified, I am experiencing my own trauma. You know like on you know last week you know sitting and watching you know the riot, the siege everything happening at the capitol, you know my… I made a choice in that moment not to go on social media, not to say anything, not to reach out to students, not to reach out to my spiritual community, but to hold space for myself because that's what I needed. If I can't hold space and be vulnerable with myself, I have nothing to offer people. You know, I don't I don't know how to tell you the truth if I can't tell myself the truth first, you know?  

But then on the other side so that it's the leaders right but we have to step to the other side and look at how we function as followers right? And the expectations that we force on our leaders, you know, that our leaders can't be vulnerable because we need them to be strong like we need them to be solid because we're actually depending on them like we're using their stability to gain a sense of stability for ourselves. Like we're using other people's strengths to hang onto you know, but if the leader that I'm with is experiencing this kind of vulnerability, openness this kind of like falling apart then what do I have left to hold onto? If this person can't do it, how in the hell can I do it? How in the hell can I get up and keep going and being resilient? If this person who I have seen as a leader can't do it, you know? Right, you know and I just think that like we have to be actually honest you know with what we need and what we want you know, and I think one of the things that we're intensely afraid of is emotions. [laughs] 

You know, as the Bee Gees sang, and as Destiny's Children's cover, you know it's like emotions taking me over caught up in sorrow, loss in the song, right? You know it's like when we get emotional, we lose control, you know? And we want to stay in control, so we want to get away from that emotionality and shut down and get numb right? I think that lies at the heart of patriarchy is that shutting down around emotion, I call it emotional fluidity and emotional maturity you know. 

Charles: And also, I kind of also think about it as a triumph of capitalism, internalization of these neoliberal principles. I'm a brand, my brand is strong Black leader, strong Black man. 

Lama Rod: Yeah. 

Charles: And so, I'm not going to be vulnerable, right? My brand you know… I think I do wonder as we continually think of ourselves not as human beings, but as products that can be sold on the market, I do wonder if it becomes harder to be messy, and complex, and nuanced because we're you know there's a certain kind of consistency and you know as we're also sharing, I am fascinated by the fact that we're both you know from the you know came of age in the South, came with Georgia you in Rome, Georgia me in Atlanta, and you know we also you know grew up connected to the church, church communities and I'm thinking about that tradition of testimony and testify. I almost wonder if we need to have some of that now this moment, we talk about truth telling I think there's a kind of a power in giving testimony to us bearing witness and being able to express that, being vulnerable even in those moments. 

Lama Rod: Yeah, it you know it's the expression of prophetic vision. You know, which is what we come out of. 

Charles: Absolutely. 

 
Lama Rod: You know this is this is something I've learned a lot from Cornel West, you know this kind of deep prophetic vision you know who is you know just you know one of my mentors and professors and I'm you know in graduate school, who on one hand talks a whole bunch of shit, but on the other hand like embraces you with this kind of radical like intense liberatory love that like I've never experienced… you know from this kind of person like this icon, for many of us, and the prophetic vision is I think one of the deep strengths of our community and I think that prophetic vision has even been stronger within Black, queer, gay, lesbian, trans culture as well within the subculture of the Black community because we have been closer to our truth. Right, you know it's the people who are closest to truth are those who have been marginalized from the center and occupy the margins. 

Charles: I mean I think part of that is I think for so many of us, being connected to truth isn't just a choice, it's our survival. I mean I think so many of us have walked up to the abyss and faced so much and we recognized, we learned that our ability to survive is deeply connected to our ability to be to tell the truth about ourselves to be honest to a level of self-awareness that other folks perhaps, and maybe that's one of the conditions of privilege in a society, an ability to disconnect from any kind of self-awareness. 

Lama Rod: Yeah, you know and that's our liberation is to reside in that truth no matter how difficult that is because we know what the consequences are. 

Charles: Let's go a little deeper on radical love, on revolutionary love in this moment again this moment of such despair, this moment of anger, of trauma you know seeing Confederate flags all over the Capitol… you know that kind of thing but you know I still, and perhaps this is you know me being utopian, I mean I still want to be connected to joy, I still want to be connected to pleasure, I want to be connected to love and if you could just talk a bit about you know how do we in these times, these moments that we're in still stay connected to a sense of radical -  and what does radical love mean now? 

Lama Rod: Yeah, you know it's you know for me radical love is really about the capacity for me to always remember that everyone is suffering. No matter how violent and ugly people get on TV with their words and with their actions, right? That that person too is suffering. You know I know sometimes we like to get into this rhetoric of labeling people evil you know oh they’re evil which I just think that's a lazy thing to do you know, because once you label someone evil you stop doing labor to actually understand the complexity of people right? You know that people are coming into the world under different circumstances right they're being indoctrinated with different ideas, different values, different narratives, right? You know like I always say you know we weren't all born woke.  

Charles: You weren't born woke? You weren't… are you sure you weren't? [laughing] 

Lama Rod: Well, my brand is. My brand is born woke. You know but real talk… 

Charles: Hashtag born woke.  

Lama Rod: That's right. Listen, we all come from somewhere. 

Charles: We all we all have a story. 

[both laugh] 

Lama Rod: That's true. You know what did Jill Scott sing, what did she say, you know sometimes we have to swim up the stream, you know, and like yeah, I've had to swim up that stream you know to get shit together and, but radical love means that first and foremost I recognize that you are a human being going through a process right? I don't have to agree with that process, I don't even have to like be around for you to go through your process by first and foremost I need to recognize that you're going through a process. A very common, normal process right, and to realize that maybe you're not perhaps doing a really good job of working through that process you know but there's still a process happening first and foremost.  

Secondly, I have to say you know what I'm going to look at your process I don't want to judge you, but I need to actually identify what I need, and what I need is not to be in proximity to your process because your process is going to get me killed, you know? Or whatever you're doing to be in relationships the work of that process is going to get me killed you know? 

Charles: I want to dig a little deeper on this radical love piece and turn it inward. How are we to love ourselves when we see so many instances where the world seems to hate us? How do we… how do we do that? 

Lama Rod: You know I think for me I just think about my process, right? You know and you know you're one of these people in my life who knew me before my enlightenment. Who knew me as a student you know activist, organizer in a small southern town. 

Charles: TMZ if you're listening, I have lots of lots of tea and gossip about Lama Rod. 

[both laugh]  

Lama Rod: I remember back then like if you came to me and talked about self-love I'd be like whatever, fuck you. You know so, when I think about the journey that I've had to move into the process right, I've had to move into to experience you know just a little bit of insight and experience of self-love it's really. It had to begin with actually stepping away from what the world had to say about me. It's actually doing the work of no longer believing in what the world was trying to say about me. Creating that boundary, and saying you know what I can't you know I can't dig this anymore I can't get with this anymore, you know, and then you you're able to turn that intention inward but it it's more than just this individual thing because this is also a communal process. Like, I rely on people, elders, colleagues, contemporaries, many, many people in my life I relied on those folks who are already doing this work to hold space for me as I turn inward you know to move into developing a relationship with the things that I couldn't stand about myself right.  

And that process of radical love for self is, first and foremost, when you get to that point is letting everything be there you know the ugliness, the darkness, the pettiness, the drama, the hurt, the trauma. Letting everything be there, that's what we call holding space. Holding space is recognizing, noticing, and then disrupting your reactivity. You know, so when I see these parts of myself that I'm just really uncomfortable with, I let go of my reactivity and I allow myself to feel that discomfort. And I sit through it, and I had to do that for years and years. You know, and that is the heart of radical love is holding space, moving through this utter, this well I call it utter disappointment, this utter heartbreak you know. This deep, intense, visceral kind of discomfort, and to know that you can survive feeling into that you know.  

Again, with the help of community, you know. In my case with the help of teachers, you know with the help of elders, with the help of friends who were functioning as mirrors for me reflecting my work back to me over and over again. You need mirrors, you know you need people in your life who function as these folks who are just like bouncing your work back to you, you know… instead of absorbing your work, which is what we call enabling. You know they say no actually that's your work to do you know you need to look at where you need to be holding space for yourself, I will be here supporting you, but you need to do the labor to get free, right. And that labor to get free first and foremost is holding space for ourselves right and then that allowing, that allowing ourselves to be you know and that in… that allowing ourselves to be actually begins to disrupt the narratives that the world has about us. You know, when the world says oh, you're ugly, you're fat, you know blah, blah, blah, right?  

Then you say well but my experience is a little different than what you're saying you know because the narratives that the world has about me comes from a place of deep discomfort, of deep insecurity, right. It comes from an intent to use violence to maintain order, rigidity, normality you know, and that's how systems perpetuate themselves when we all get in line. You know, and when we were just performing versions of the person in front of us and they're performing a version of the person in front of them, and so forth but we're all just like becoming like these… these soldiers who just fall in line, you know and to disrupt the system we have to step out of line we have to disrupt that rigidity, uniformity. 

Charles: There's something very beautiful about that when you actually disrupt these systems. I couldn't help but think about, as you talked about self-love, how I think so many of us are able to convince ourselves that we've achieved that right? We're able to perform a version of ourselves that is very and you know perhaps we an idea we have of ourselves, or we want to achieve but then there's still, at times, residue in there, still sometimes in our interior worlds… I wouldn't say hidden, but definitely… just these subtle messages that that kind of, that sometimes they're not always super present but then they manifest at other times, but I'm so inspired by just thinking through just the value of being, making yourself uncomfortable, because I think that's where the real work begins. Because you can perform a version of yourself, a very highly functional part of yourself, but it's not until you get into those uncomfortable moments that you're able to really exercise those muscles and really see how much, I mean where you are, you know it's an amazing test, in a way. 

Lama Rod: Yeah, and I completely you know, that's it. You know, and I think that we… well I think what I see also is that people think that they're being authentic in themselves you know but in fact, they're actually performing into the expectations of others around them. You know, so those there's a there's an illusion of authenticity, but in fact it's just a kind of a performance, it's a drag right, it's a performance to you know that fits in to the expectations of our communities. Now when you want to see if you're being authentic, start making choices that are centering your needs. 

Charles: I feel like we probably have viewers and listeners that may be interested in more… how do I say this? So, part of what we're here to discuss obviously is the just the moment we're in, particularly reacting to the political climate. I think we both have a very fine-tuned lens around anti-Black racism and white supremacy and just being constantly you know being resisting, right? I also imagine that we have white allies that are listening, that are probably very curious about how they should be showing up in this moment, I think. Last week, we saw I think several examples of how white folks are trying to, white allies are trying to find their voice in the moment, so I guess you should just go ahead and get to that, and just do you have any thoughts to, or perspectives for white allies that are looking for ways to respond to the moment in solidarity? 

Lama Rod: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know we have to get out of performing allyship you know. Again, it's like allyship can become something that can feel comfortable you know so it's like we want to be allies, okay. We started buying the books, and we started doing the workshops, and we started doing the social media posting right.  

Charles: Put the Black Lives Matter, the Black Lives Matter… the banner on your, in front of your house. 

Lama Rod: Everywhere, you know like on my car, and I have the shirts you know… but as I've often said, you know allyship is about going to your front lines. Like, what is your front line, and your front line isn't trying to get behind me. You know your front line is going to the real tangible work of disrupting white supremacy which means that you actually have to allow your heart to break.  

You know you have to move through this utter disappointment, this deep discomfort. Right and that's gonna maybe make you look like you're not being effective. You know, but like for me the internal work of dismantling white supremacy is the future, you know? It's not necessarily about the marches, it's not about going to the protest, it's about how do you learn to go and name this disappointment, this trauma, the trauma of whiteness. That you've been born into a system that was created only to perpetuate violence on the bodies of Black and brown people. Like, you have to name that. You have to stick with that discomfort, you know and get out of this like this tendency to want to like document what that looks like.  

Fuck the documenting, you know like go and sit with that, and let that discomfort disrupt you. Let it begin to bring insight into the ways in which you're subtly maintaining the system and how you're interacting. With other white people, with other Black and brown folks, allow that discomfort to let you see this inherent anti-Blackness that's always functioning. 

Charles: You know, I will say, and I've never told this story before, I can't believe I'm telling it now… 

Lama Rod: That's okay girl, this is a safe space.  

Charles: I'm sharing I'm… I'm sharing every, everything. 

Lama Rod: It's a safe space. 

Charles: You know my parents… my parents were, my parents had me later in life, so they were very much of the Jim Crow era, and so I grew up hearing stories about white supremacy. I mean, I was not naive I knew… I was very aware of the… I was very aware of racism and white supremacy. And yet I was ill prepared for meeting very excited, very aggressive, anti-racist allies… masterful performances so well that I was even, not completely fooled, but probably more fooled than I would have admitted to myself… and being disappointed when they weren't willing to go the distance.  

Being heartbroken even once or twice one feeling like you know of course there's always the seduction of cynicism, right? Like where you’re like oh I should have known, but just how easy it is to just slip back into it and you… I mean, because to be perfectly honestly, there's even social capital extended to being anti-racist in some ways. So, in some ways you're able to kind of multiply your white privilege while seeking to resist it. But just being well, I wasn't I didn't have the tools like to be profoundly disappointed by comrades that… when they would when…  and so, when I would challenge them, it would be very, and then they would feel fooled because as I've learned, that I have to sometimes tell people, I'm from Atlanta. You know, I'm a very different kind of Black person, like I grew up I how do I put this, I stand up for myself right? Like, I don't you know, and I and I think that even some of the most well-meaning white anti-racists, I think sometimes prefer to be around people of color that won't challenge them very directly. 

Lama Rod: Yeah. 

Charles: And you know it's… you know, I'm like I'm I challenge stuff like I'm not gonna let that go so… I so I guess just being disappointed and I think many of us go through that, right? Where it's like you think you have a comrade, an ally and what do you do when you're disappointed? And then that maybe that goes in the space of like what do you do with that, you know? 

Lama Rod: Yeah, I think that's a really common experience that many of us have, particularly if we're in the work. You know, we actually don't even have to be in the work, we just be in the world in Black bodies and having to experience the disappointment, actually for me it feels like betrayal. 

Charles: Betrayal, that's the word. 

Lama Rod: Like you say one thing, and then you fall short… and for me, I guess in my practice at this point in my life I just recognize that this is the reality you know? You know, I go back you know to my 20s and just you know all you know when you're in your 20s you know… we knew each other in our 20s, like we were just our heads were full of like all the discourse, all the radicals this and that, and the theories. 

Charles: The poetry and the theory. [laughs] 

Lama Rod: Yeah, it's like you know we were you know we were in that era where it was like we have to have a theory before there's an action. 

Charles: You can't leave the house without a theory. 

[both laugh] 
 

Lama Rod: I was like, you need an analysis before you act you know, like what’s your analysis?  
 

Charles: What is your analysis? And we were serious about it. 

[both laugh] 
 

Lama Rod: That's right, it was it was like a pop quiz like you would be like what's your analysis on Palestine and Israel, go. I don't know like where what countries are those? You know I was coming from Rome, Georgia like the struggle was very basic. I was just trying to be gay; you know like my I hadn't extended into solidarity across like countries and nationalities you know?  

Charles: And here we are. 

Lama Rod: [laughs] Right.  And here we go, right here we are. [both laugh] You know, but like I just, you know one of the things that stuck with me and the theories from back then, is Paulo Feire, when he talks about you know it's the oppressed that will liberate the oppressor. You know and I knew that to be the truth, but it was so hard for me to accept it, you know as a young person you know in my 20s just moving through these activist spaces. It was like no, you know like I can't do that, but like as I've gotten older, particularly as I've moved into you know contemplative practice and you know just develop this awareness of myself it's like yeah just being myself actually just becomes this mirror that reflects back to oppressors around me that oh like this is this is what's happening like this is your impact on me, I'm just giving it back to you. You know, I'm showing you know, and I think about for me I've… what's helped me to understand the work around white supremacy is linking it back to the work I'm trying to do around dismantling patriarchy, you know as a cisgender male, male identified person.  

Like just understanding okay what does it mean to undo patriarchy in this particular identity location you know and the work well, and the labor that female identified, and trans folks, and gender non-conforming folks and gender, and non-binary folks are doing to educate me about my participation in this binary system. You know and knowing that that labor is ultimately them doing that for me and just saying okay how can I really, first of all not take that labor for granted, and to really absorb that labor and commit myself to… you know to really quite honestly a multi-generational plan of dismantling patriarchy, right? That yes, it’s about me doing my work but it's also about me teaching young folks about the work and doing the work you know? 

Charles: I feel like this is a good time for us to talk about… talk about the future and talk about where we hope, where we desire to see all this go. So, what is your vision? Like, what and I know it sounds kind of naïve, but I'm just… I do think there's something powerful about Black people imagining future possibilities like I think that because I mean… how often do we do we get to do that? So what would be your ideal, describe your ideal world, or where do you want all this to go? 

Lama Rod: Yeah, you know I think the difficulty of that it's the difficulty of it is us dreaming beyond the trauma when all we know is the trauma. So, I know that like when I dream it is tinged by the suffering of this moment, that maybe I'm still struggling to reconcile and heal for myself but like in this future like it's for me, the future isn't the absence of suffering, it's not the absence of struggle. I think to be human means that we will struggle to make sense of mind and body living on this particular plane of existence. Like I just feel like that's part of our work you know as being these kinds of beings, being human, but what I see is us having the capability the capacity to be spacious beings.  

To be able to look into our experience and to notice the space to be with the spaciousness instead of always shutting down you know and falling into the contraction because I think it's that space, it’s that spaciousness, that openness and I also call it vulnerability where we begin to experience this deep evolution. You know this capacity to know what we're experiencing, to know how we're feeling, to deeply disrupt our expressions of violence against ourselves and others. Right and to have a language that is deeply affirming, you know? That's deeply, that's rich, and not depleted. I think our language about ourselves and about our communities is really a language that's really super depleted right now it's a tired language and I think that the future is about creating a new language to talk about our capacity to experience space and joy, but also our capacity to continue to struggle you know, with what it means to be human at the same time, and all this can happen together, you know? I love what you were talking about you know earlier you know particularly about joy. Like, for me joy is a revolutionary methodology, you know. Like that's like joy becomes yeah, a weapon in a way you know that we use joy to transform our situations. 

Charles: I mean one of the things that I have been clear about is… I've witnessed so many folks that do movement work where it takes… they leave the work so much more hurt and in pain than when they found it, when they started.  

Lama Rod: Yeah. 

Charles: And I've just always been very curious about like how can we how, how do we stay whole in this work and how do we take care of ourselves and not just in a superficial kind of way, but like in a very deep way like how do we survive, how do we remain, how do we have a sense of restoration in this work? And I think part of it is being connected to joy. I think part of it is finding pleasure, and finding desire, and all those things even in the work and it's very serious it's very obviously I mean weird, oh my gosh right like the cost the stakes are can never can never they're never they're extremely high and yet, like as you said, there's something very revolutionary about still finding a way to stay connected to a sense of joy and I'm just so grateful you said that because I think that now the practice of it is of course a process right? So, I think we may have a sense of consciousness around how it's important, but even being willing to exercise… it’s something I struggle with right just wanting you know, yeah like the finding joy is in and of itself a practice, I found. 

Lama Rod: Yeah, you know I've heard so many stories you know personally from people, from organizers you know in other countries where like people are really struggling with severe stuff with war, famine, disease, right? You know, but there is this intentional space of joy of literal like dance, and fellowship, and laughter… even knowing that in the moment of experiencing that joy the next moment may mean that some of them will be killed, you know, but to know that. You know I think that we… I do I want to bring this back to American culture I think for that American culture it's like we still struggle with death itself, right and that disrupts our capacity to experience joy because death is always lurking to take our joy away, you know? And death can mean not just the ending of life and the physical body, but death is you know in general meaning the end of something. The discontinuation. And permanence, will you know impermanence, change, instability which is just life right?  

I think we get sucked into that, that impermanence and we get really, we say what's the point of joy when in the next moment we could be dead, or we could be poor, or we can be hungry, or whatever it may be, you know? And what I mean by revolutionary joy is that my joy holds everything including death. You know I am joyful because that is my nature, my nature is to be joyful and when I say joy, I mean just we give more words for when I when I speak of joy I speak of expansion, openness, space you know. I speak of having this agency to hold everything in my experience and not feeling as if I'm contracting and shutting down around the things that hold a lot of energy, but everything is there. 

Charles: I find I find that for me, much of my sense of joy comes from the arts. It comes from poetry, and literature, and you know film, and theater, and just constantly just being able to witness the… you know beauty through art, through the arts. I mean, ever since I was really a kid and I'm just constantly reminded of having the arts connected to my practice of joy is so important because the it… even witnessing such tremendous despair, it connects me to a sense of hope, it connects me to a sense of my spirituality, it connects me to a sense of immortality in a way by reading or watching or witnessing art that has you know endured time. I think we both share an affinity for like Essex Hemphill, and I'm sure we both found his work, the poet Essex Hemphill, Black gay poet, writer and activist and even the just the immortality of his of his words and his language so yeah, I think that's just been a tremendous force for joy in my life. 

Lama Rod: Yeah, I think you know what you're expressing is this experience of transformation. Like, art is the way that we're processing the struggle and returning it into something to reveal a deeper meaning to it. You know, I think that for me you know coming to coming to relationship with Essex Hemphill’s work, which was purely by accident you know, because I wasn't I was not in a context where people were going around teaching and quoting Black gay poets you know? [laughs softly] 

Charles: Not at… not at Berry College? 

Lama Rod: No, not at Berry College [both laugh] and I thank God that you know the internet was coming about when I started college. You know because I wouldn't have had access you know to this literature… this literature not just the literature… it's all the art of people like me… transforming it into something that was beautiful, and soulful, but something that was honest like you just the art was just telling the truth you know? When Essex said that like I am dying twice as fast as any other American between the ages of what 25 and 30 or something you know like it's just like yeah you know like I'm sad, but I don't want to alarm people. 

Charles: How did you find Essex Hemphill? I don't know if we talked about this before. 

Lama Rod: I don’t know. I think I was searching online. I literally you know just I was literally just like searching trying to consume as much as possible about who I was you know and of course it was you know In the Life right Brother to Brother Joseph Beam you know because I had access to the films. Tongues Untied… you know those early films I was like oh my God - that's me. Those are other Black gay men you know, who many of them are no longer with us, because of the epidemic you know the AIDS epidemic, you know? But they were reflecting back to me this incredible beauty I actually just re-watched Tongues Untied maybe about, I guess it was in November and I was just like whoa. 

Charles: I mean even now when the screen when the screen opens up Brother to Brother, Brother to Brother, Brother to Brother, Brother. It's like you just get chills. 

Lama Rod: It's the chills like it's a… it's a mantra. 

Charles: Because I think Marlon Riggs is reaching across time and space to talk to us even now. 

Lama Rod: Yeah. 

Charles: I mean I always say that I think in so many ways I was sort of a Black gay activist created in a lab or something [Lama Rod laughs] because I had all these forces like I don't think there was a choice for me because there were just always these forces. I don't even think I had I mean I searched for it but it just you know like just having access to these texts, and to the people, and I had so many people, elders downloading their stories to me [Lama Rod: Yes, yes] and I felt this incredible sense of responsibility to continue the legacy and to use my work and my voice to amplify that lineage and legacy that I know we've spoken about. But we're probably around the same like… I was in college initially at Morehouse and watching Tongues Untied, reading Brother to Brother, and reading In the Life and feeling this sense of connection. Although it's interesting, I think as I've gotten, as I've grown in the in the work every time I return to the pages it's almost like they affirm me even more because I think… I mean, as an 18-year- old there were certain experiences I hadn't had, so reading about them didn't quite… and then later I'm like oh wow I get what they were trying to communicate to me. 

Lama Rod: Yeah, yeah you know and I've told you the story often that you know Reginald Shepherd was, I would… you know an elder of mine, he's now an ancestor you know but meeting him randomly at Berry college and realizing wait you're In the Life, you know?  

 
Charles: I know you! I've read your work… 

Lama Rod: You know, and that connection that we had where he was just like, “I'm trying to take care of you.” 
 

Charles: Yeah. 

Lama Rod: You know, and the ways that I couldn't open to that because of my own trauma and fear, right, you know, and just knowing that like that's the legacy, like we have to reach out and grab people even though people may reject us. 

Charles: But I almost wonder if that's a way that we cope with trauma, right, like, the fear that we may see ourselves in each other and that… and that being a manifestation of trauma so rather than... we would rather look away or turn away then to see ourselves in each other. 

Lama Rod: Yeah, it's just because we're mirrors. 

Charles: We're mirrors. 

Lama Rod: Yes, we're mirrors for each other, right, and if I haven't done the work to hold space for my own trauma and you reflect it back to me, I'm just going to blame you and enact violence on you. 

Charles: And it's so funny, like, I remember when we met, I was so in awe of your poetry. [Lama Rod: Wow…] For folks who don’t know, Lama Rod is just an amazing poet. Like, I just remember I was like, wow! I couldn't believe you could write like that. I mean you could just craft these beautiful because you were... yeah, I mean, you know around the same age. I'm like, oh my God, how do you have this voice? Like it was just so well formed and so, just gorgeous writing. 

Lama Rod: So much of that was Reginald's. You know, I just, like, when I was introduced to his work I was like, this is a Black gay man like me writing this really lyrical beautiful poetry. It's just his work is just like, I don't know what this means but, like, I just love reading it. I love saying it, you know, and it's tugging at something inside of me, you know, and that comes from this deep reflection of the self and this willingness to like bare yourself in the work. Like I just think, you know, as artists we have to take risks, like, you have to put everything out. You have to put the love and the rage, everything out on that page, right? You know, because that's the work that we're called to do. We're called to be honest. 

Charles: And that kind of serves as a full circle moment for myself, because when I was 17, 18 years old I wrote this op-ed in a newspaper where I essentially came out. 

Lama Rod: Yeah.  

Charles: And I had a moment of... like after it was, you know, after it hit and it was like one those things were... it got some circulation so now it's out there, so everyone knows, and well, I mean, it was confirmed I should say. Well, I know y'all are snickering! It was confirmed. 

Lama Rod: [laughs] It was confirmed.  

Charles: And I just remember having this moment of brief despair where I was like, oh my God what's going to happen, terror really. I was like, oh snap! What did I just... what did I just do? And I'll never forget I had took my copy of Brother to Brother with the black and pink... the black book with pink letters, and I started reading the introduction that Essex Hemphill had wrote, and this was when I was like 18 years old or so, and I just felt the sense that it's gonna be okay, that it's gonna be okay and I have a responsibility to keep fighting, things would be easier for me, and this was like ’99, 1999 or something. I was like things are going to be easier for me than it was for any of them and I have a responsibility to keep it moving and I haven't looked back since.  

Lama Rod: Yeah, that's our labor for our descendants, you know, it's the same labor our ancestors did for us, you know, and the laborers being ourselves regardless of what's happening in the world, we are ourselves. And then we are ourselves, we're practicing authenticity, and we know what's at stake. We know what the consequences are, but we do it.  

Charles: I want to talk a bit more about healing. I imagine that there are many folks in the audience that, you know, practice various kinds of healing arts. Maybe they're in faith communities, maybe they're practicing some form of therapy. What would you most want people involved in any kind of healing justice work... what do you think is most important for them to know in terms of how they respond to this moment?  

Lama Rod: Yeah, to be honest it's okay to break down, it's okay to not know what to say, it's okay not to be able to hold space right now for folks because this moment is about understanding how we need to be caring for ourselves, you know, and also how we need to be in communication with our communities and collectives about what communal collective care looks like as well. And I'll also say this too, because this is the reality of things, there are a whole bunch of healers out in the world who don't know shit about healing [Charles laughs] you know. You're trying to... people are trying to lay hands on other people and that laying of the hands, you know, is an act of violence because it's like you haven't done the work for yourself, you know, and I think and what I see from a lot of young folks right now is that the moment, the urgency is propelling them into making choices in how to be agents of healing and then I have to show up you know and say, “but you're still not ready, fuck the urgency. Like you haven't done the work to step into that role yet because if you step into that role without having done the training, having gone through the process and the mastery, then you will just start enacting violence over and over again.” I have to pull healers to the side and say, “you need to shut it down.”   

Charles: But I do wonder on some level if they’re... and maybe it's not a conscious choice but the sense that through trying to heal others they'll heal themselves. That through trying to heal others whatever broken parts they may be carrying will become whole.  

Lama Rod: Which is manipulation. [Charles: Mhm] Like I'm using you to get something for myself, you know, like I can't... I don't deserve to be an experiment for you to see if you can get healed through me, you know. It's like you have to, you know, what the elders used to say you have to go to the lonesome valley. [Charles: Mhm] You know, and that you have to move through that experience of being [Lama Rod sighs] in this deep uncomfortable relationship with we and learning how to make sense of that in order to know how to be with the darkness and the discomfort of others.  

So, when I think about my path, my path has been about learning the mastery of healing and my modality, and I've learned the mastery of healing through two ways: first, is by being the student of masters, and secondly, by doing the labor for myself, you know, and then having done enough of this labor, masters coming and saying, “okay now you're ready to do something.” Like I didn't, you know, my title is Lama, I didn't buy this title from somewhere. I didn't go to, you know, to graduate school to get this title, like I went into a lineage to train with masters, right?  

You know, and that's another word for us too: lineage. Like what's our lineage? If you're a healer, okay, what's your lineage? It's like saying, you know, back in the day talking about, “okay what's your analysis?” You know? But, like, I have to look at people and say, “okay I see you doing work, where are you coming from? Who were your teachers? [Charles: Mhm] Who were your teacher’s teachers? You know, what is this modality that you're doing?” You know, it's okay to move through lineage and to innovate it, you know, but like who is holding you accountable as a healer, you know? [Charles: Mhm] And that's… again I see a lot of folks who are just like, “I'm a healer now. I'm gonna kill you,” you know? And I'm, you know, and I have to pull up Whitney Houston and say, “well where's your receipts?” [both laugh] You know? I am not talking about a certificate; I'm not talking about a degree. That's all Western bullshit that's been enacted like this colonial settler bullshit, you know, around respectability. But when I talk about receipts, I'm like, “who did you study with?” 

Charles: Who are your people? 

Lama Rod: Who are your people? Who are you accountable to? 

Charles: 1.07.50 I see we're getting lots of really powerful questions so we'll definitely want to make sure we get to questions but before we get to the questions, Lama Rod are there any final things you want to share? Just kind of before we pivot to questions… 

Lama Rod: Yeah, yeah, I was just finally... I just want to share, you know, just about the times that we're moving through. Yeah, I want to reiterate that it's supposed to be bullshit. [both laugh] 

Charles: Are you invoking Bell Hooks from Black Is... Black Ain’t? [both laugh] 

Lama Rod: Yeah, you know, you're right. Like it's...  

Charles: I see you. 

Lama Rod: Yeah, it's supposed to be uncomfortable and it will continue to be uncomfortable. This is the darkness, right? And, you know, if you want to be a healer then you need to be in relationship with the darkness as much as you want to be in a relationship with the light, you know? Like, you know, I... you know, we talk about the healing culture in American Indigenous communities. Medicine men, medicine women, right? Medicine people, you know, the training of a medicine person in tribal culture is, at least from like my perspective, right, my relationship to Indigeneity, is that you have to know the lowest of the low. Like you have to see that for yourself in order to meet people where they are, to offer them what they need in order to be well. To take them where they need to be. I can't help you if I don't actually understand what darkness is for myself. 

Charles: What a journey that is… 

Lama Rod: What if I’m afraid of the darkness… 

Charles: If you’re afraid of the darkness, yeah, yeah. 

Lama Rod: Yeah. Like the healing that I offer is just an expression of the healing I've done for myself. [Charles: Mmh] That's it. You know, I don't offer anything that I haven't proven to be medicine for myself, so that's all I'll say.  

Charles: [laughs softly] Okay, a final question. What practices do you use to find peace within yourself and how can we activate that peace within others?  
 
Lama Rod: I would say the first thing comes to my mind is gratitude. Gratitude is the practice of me recognizing that I am the recipient of countless acts of labor and kindness for my well-being, my safety, my health. It’s allowing that energy of gratitude to open my heart, to crack my heart open, to step into realizing that the world is actually full of goodness, even though the darkness and the harm seems to be really overwhelming and intense at times. You know, but realizing that there is intense goodness happening, intense positive labor happening, and I'm a recipient of that. And not only that, I am an agent also of this labor, of this goodness, of this kindness, as well. That is a reciprocal experience and stepping into that energy, you know, is something I return to every single day. 

Charles: Well, that is such a perfect final response, and it was just joy talking to you. As always, I learned so much from your amazing insights and I'm really grateful to just share space... get to share space with you. Did you have any final, final words that you want to share before we wrap it up? 

Lama Rod: Yeah, you know, I just want to say how much I love you; you know. 

Charles: Oh. 

[both laugh] 

Lama Rod: Not like that, you know, not like, you know, but like I just want to say that like I feel like our relationship is an expression of like radical revolutionary love. [Charles: Mhm] You know, it’s just something that... this friendship is something that I have actually been praying for, you know, for years to be in this intimate close relationship with someone who mirrors me, you know, and mirrors me in a way that like I can, I don't flinch, you know. To have this kind of love, you know, and to be with someone who like, who knew me before… you know whatever it is that I am now. [Both laugh] You know, like, you know, who can like actually testify to the fact that I've come from something, you know. I actually had to come from a lot to be here, that I've changed and grown, you know.  

So, I lift up your work, you know, and your labor for our community, you know, the ways in which you are committed to our liberation. You know, as well, and you know and I lift up our ancestors, you know, for all those ancestors who never got a chance to embody the life that they wanted to embody, and that we are vehicles for them, you know, so they can see what it looks like, you know, to be happy. You know, and to still care and still do the work, you know. 

Charles: Thank you. 

Lama Rod: As one of my elders said, and I'll leave this as the last word. One of my elders, who used to organize with Essex Hemphill and Audre Lorde, you know, one day she said, “you know what? You are who we were praying for [Charles: Mmh] and I think that our work together is to pray into existence our descendants who will carry on the work of liberation.” So that's it. 

Charles: Thank you so much, and this will not be the last at all.  

 
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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  
 
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