CIIS Public Programs Podcast

 transcript

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This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. Through our programming, we strive to amplify the voices of those who have historically been under-represented. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.  
 
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Christine: Hi Lauren, it's so great to have you here with us at CIIS. Welcome.  

Lauren: Hi, thank you so much. I'm so excited, but I'm obviously nervous, but nervous is excitement. 

Christine: Well, since we'll be talking about moods tonight, that seems like, it's great that you just name your mood right to get started. 

Lauren: Exactly and kind of doing that whole like I'm-not-nervous-I'm-excited... change the feeling… 

Christine: Beautiful. 

Lauren: Otherwise, I would be having a panic attack right now. This is my first, like, live interview I've ever done so I'm really excited. 

Christine: Oh, that's great! And we'll just kind of have a chat and explore this amazing book that I was able to read over the weekend and as a moody woman myself, I must admit I was really touched by it and... resonated with so many things that you said in the book and so hopefully we can dive into some of that and also learn a little bit more about your work in the world and what you've been up to since writing the book as well. So... 

Lauren: Yeah, that sounds great. 

Christine: If it's okay with you, I kind of want to do a deep dive first into some of the ideas that are really foundational to the book and then kind of broaden out from there. 

Lauren: Yeah, that works great for me. 

Christine: Okay. Alright. So, for our listeners, I would love for you to tell me a little bit about how you ended up writing The Book of Moods. What was a little bit of the story about how you came to this project? 

Lauren: So, there's kind of two parts to the story and that involves Words of Women and The Book of Moods and I think it's, you know, I've been talking about it a lot… I used to be a little bit more as a writer ashamed of it because I felt like “oh, I like built this platform to create this book…” kind of the opposite way that authors tend to do things - you write and then you gain a following from your writing.  

Basically, what happened was five years ago I was living in New York. I was writing for different magazines. I just moved in with my boyfriend. I seemingly was, like, had everything but I kept... I don't know, like... I kept just... I was just breaking down like and they weren't big break downs. It was just, like, small little things, like coming home from work and being in a bad mood and you know wasting a Saturday just, like, obsessing over a text or something small and it wasn't until I came home one night. I think I had a bad commute, bad day at work, maybe got an aggressive email from my boss and I just, you know, I was just in one of those funks, where I like couldn't get out of it and my boyfriend was waiting for me and he was cooking dinner and he had wine and he was like trying to get me out of it. And eventually he just like freaked out. He's like, “I can't do this anymore. I can't live with you and your moods. It’s exhausting.”  

And I think it was the first time... I think when you live with someone, you're forced to evaluate yourself and like the way you live because now you're living with someone. It was the first time I was like, “wow, like the way that I am is actually not always okay. The way that I am is affecting someone and they're trying to tell me this” and it was just, like, pivotal life changing moment where I thought, “I better get my act together. Like I need to figure this out.” It's because it's not just like, “oh, I'm an artist, I feel things in the moment.” It was, like, debilitating and it was ruining my life and it was ruining his life.  

So, I kind of set out on this journey and I decided like the things that were making me feel better, the things I was learning, I decided to collect in a blog in an Instagram account. And because I know for me the biggest thing with moods is the pain of like feeling them alone. Like you can seem perfect on the outside and I talked about this but really, you're battling with something internally and usually women don't talk about it because they feel like it's petty or silly or vain or stupid. So, when I heard other women talking about it, famous women, you know successful women, it made me feel better. It made me feel less alone.  

So, I started putting that on the Instagram and at the same time, I was like, I want to write like a book about this, but I couldn't get an agent. I was kind of like, you know, just a young writer. I was like, you know what I'll just self-publish it and then five years went by of me just like working on this book and getting ready to like publish it one day myself and an editor and an agent came to me and they're like, “we love this account. We love your newsletter. We love your blog. We love whatever you're working on. Is this a book?” And I was like, “yes.” Oh my God, so it kind of went full circle to where we are today.  

Christine: Right, exactly and you know the phenomenon of having a public presence before publishing a book is kind of new. This is a… 

Lauren: It is new. 

Christine: It’s a new way of doing things and it sounds like from what I've learned about Words of Women is that there was a lot of resonance with this idea. That other women... you sharing your experience, other women were coming back to you and saying, “this is happening to me, too.” 

Lauren: Exactly and it's funny because I started the account and it was more like “oh, this is me.” I read this in a book, and it makes me feel better or this is some study and then women would say, like, “I feel the same way” and like that made me feel better. So, like it was this reciprocal, amazing... just some where like I was posting stuff and then they were seeing it, and then I was feeling better because they were resonating with it. And I realize there's so much power in sharing and talking about these feelings and that's kind of why I'm so excited to have this book finally be out because it's really a collection of like the five years of the best things I found. 

Christine: Mm hm, yeah. So, you touched on some pretty heavy moods in this book and as I was reading, I started to make a list of the words that you were using to describe some of the moods. So, I'm going to throw those out there. And maybe we could unpack like your version of that mood and my version of that mood and how these tend to show up.  

Because my experience when I was reading this, it made me think a lot of Brené Brown first of all and her work around naming what's really true for us as a true act of vulnerability, and you used words that we often are told not to use or to gloss over, you know, things like anger and perfectionism, and envy, and social comparison. And when I say those to you now, where you are now, what comes up for you? How is it that you found a way to be able to name these moods and tell your truth about these moods? 

Lauren: You know, what I feel is intense. Yeah, and for me naming it is really where the power came in to. Like, as I say in the book, everyone has their own individual triggers, you know. It could be like a comment from my mom something like, “why are you letting that bother you?” But it's the deep-rooted understanding of what the comment represents which a lot of times is misunderstanding or expectation or why I see a photo of my friend who looks gorgeous and why I like, even though I'm happy for her, I still kind of have this weird pit in my stomach and that's envy and being able to name that is so powerful.  

It's like a freedom like it's like a release like, “okay. This is my trigger. Like this is my struggle right here.” And I think I'm now proud of the fact like yeah, I do have these feelings a lot of women do, and I think being able to name it takes a little bit of the pain and the stigma away and gives me a chance to look at myself and be like, “okay, this is this is envy. This is comparison. Let's work through it.”  

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. And how do you, now, after doing all of this work ,after spending time in really deep reflection… How do you find in the moment that you're able to name it, claim it and move on? What's your process like?  

Lauren: Well, it's you know, obviously been a long time. So, you know, it's one of those things I've had to practice over the years but for an example is like depletion is a big mood for me. Like when I would come home from work and realize like this feeling is me being worn down. This is truly my will power depleted. So, like it’s being able to recognize that sign like, okay and then what I do is I just know like I feel like I know myself now and I go okay, like what can I do to refill myself? Like there's I have like three things. I know that I like to watch Real Housewives. I'm not ashamed. It’s my guilty pleasure and I like to or have a glass of wine and these things I just learned to kind of like automatically just start doing like and my husband and I we have a joke because like I'll be like, “I'm depleted. I can't cook dinner right now. I need an hour to like recharge,” and I feel like the more you practice these rituals and the more you practice understanding what you're feeling, and saying, “I'm depleted or I'm anxious.”  

Just saying it to yourself and then kind of focusing on what are the things I can practice doing to get me out of it and it's not always going to work, you know, the first time or the second or the third the more you start noticing it, trying it and doing it… it kind of just starts to become part of you and I feel like especially with my husband, I mean, he’s heard me talk about it so much now he like knows and he’s always like “I'm depleted I need to play videos games,” and it’s kind of like part of our lives now. Like we both understand how to express how we're feeling and what to do when we need to like try and combat that feeling.  

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. Yeah, I notice it physically often as well. You know, I'll have like one shoulder that all of a sudden is somewhere it generally isn't, right? Or I'll notice that my stomach feels really speedy or that my thoughts are going really really quickly. And that's that first signal to me of “I'm not in a great space right now.” 

Lauren: Yeah, the physical is very real. I mean, I really believe, and I talk about that in the book in the mind-body connection as well. So, I think when you're not listening to what your mind is trying to tell you, your body is going to try to tell it to you and that's why it's really important to be like, “okay like this pain in my stomach or in my chest is a sign of stress and like I need to pay attention to this.”  

Otherwise, it's just going to evolve into something else and I do think like the body is a huge tool to use and to start noticing how you’re feeling. For me, I also noticed just like I'm, and I talk about this, I am my best self when I'm in a good mood, and when I'm overtaking with the mood, I'm just I'm less rational. I'm... I don't see things as clearly and I think you get older and you start to realize that that's what it is. Like, okay, like I'm... You know they always say, “after a good night's sleep you'll, like, think on it. You'll feel better.” And I'm starting to realize that the way I perceive events might be wrong because I might be in a specific mood and so I'm starting to learn to be like, let me, like, my thoughts tell me as well and how I'm perceiving something that I'm not in the right frame of mind.  

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. One of the words that you use towards the end of the book is patience. That you've learned that patience is really important to you and it made me think about the fact that in my own experience and something that I've been really learning too, recently, is that not every decision has to be made immediately. 

Lauren: Yes, yes. I think there's a lot of... there's a lot to be said for taking time to just pause when it comes to anything work like, you know, and I see my husband do this like he’ll just like get an email on his phone and rush to respond and I'm like, “you don't always have to respond like right in that second,” and I feel like we need to take time to gather ourselves more and gather our thoughts and really think about you know, the intention of what we're trying to say or what we're trying to do and really start to just more, like, I think it helps you live a little bit more gracefully, whereas before I felt like I was always rushing into situations and then that would cause me anxiety because I would always be like, “oh my God, like I totally didn't think that through or why did I do that?” And it’s cuz I wasn't taking that time to pause, and I've really learned the value in just like relaxing in the moment and pausing and taking my time and being more deliberate with my actions and my words.  

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. Yeah, we both have worked from home for a long time as individuals. We learned that about each other today. And one of the things is that so many of us now, those of us who have been able to continue to work, so many of us are working from home and there's these blurry blurry lines between what work life and the rest of our lives feel like. I'm hearing from a lot of people in my communities this incredible intensification of that sense of urgency, the rush, the sort of overwhelm of all the information and that there's no gap between work and life anymore. What's your take on that? Like, how is that showing up for you? And how does that relate to how you are able to manage the moods? 

Lauren: Yeah, so in the book it's funny because I talk about working from home before this happened, but I talked about it because, you know, my husband I were fighting because I thought what was making me miserable was having to leave the house to go to work. Like I thought it was the commute and the long days and I was like, “well if I could just work from home these moods wouldn't happen.” And then of course, I quit my job and I start working from home and the moods showed up again, but just in a different form. Different things bothered me.  

You know, the smell of the trash, the construction, the fact that I didn't have co-workers anymore, the fact that I couldn't see people. So, I had to learn to understand, like, it's not about where you are and it's always and life is always about... it's not the situation, it’s how you perceive the situation and how you're going to define the situation. And I think for me now I'm making... and I've been doing this for five years now, I've been working from home. Like the deliberate practice of really setting aside like breakfast, lunch, dinner. Start turning my laptop off and I think you know really taking those times to be like, “I'm going to take an hour lunch break” and really just eat your lunch like whether it means like moving to a different area or going outside and not bringing your work phone because then it's like you're still at work. So, I don't know, how, what it... What about you? What do you find works best?  

Christine: Hmm. That's yeah, thank you for asking as you were talking the word boundaries was just so alive in my mind. This idea that it's okay to have boundaries, that it's okay to not always be accessible all the time. I think that that's something that's become really powerful in my own life too, of just knowing that my own renewal and taking a time out, like you said, it brings out my best self, which is what I'd really like to show up with and when I'm totally depleted I just... I can't bring her, cannot bring her out to the party. 

Lauren: No, no. No, it's funny you say that too because I feel like, you know, now that we're home and now that we can't travel or go to parties we can't be like, “oh sorry, missed your email. I was you know; I was on vacation or I was…” It's like we don't have that excuse anymore. So, you have to be able to kind of stand up for yourself and be like, “I'm just not going to answer this email. This is after work hours.” Like I don't need an excuse, or I can say “I'll get back to you tomorrow, like when I work between 8 and 5,” so I feel like we're being forced to kind of stop this whole like charade of... we like,like we, you know, being like “hey, I'm you know, I'm out of the country.” “I can't respond to you right now,” or, “So sorry. I was busy.” “I was, you know, busy. My wife's parents…” We can't use those excuses. So we have to start learning how to speak up for ourselves more and setting those boundaries and that's hard and I think the more that we, you know, see other people do it and you go, “okay like Christine cool. I respect that,” like the more we can start doing it for ourselves and come to start setting that example.  

Christine: Mm hm. Do you find that that helps your mood? When you practice those boundaries like do you feel like it's an improvement for you in some way?  

Lauren: Definitely. I actually recently had like a little bit of an experience. I still work. I'm a marketing director for this company and it’s, I'm a consultant and… you know, I’m dealing with this sales guy and he was suddenly really rude during a call and usually I just back down and then spend the rest of the day like, you know, bitching to my husband like, “can you believe he said that?” Like, and I was doing that, and I was like, “why am I doing this?” I'm just creating a mood for myself, when, like, I could just confront the situation, tell him how I feel and be over and done with it. And so, I kind of made myself take a page from my own book and I emailed him, was like, “hey do you want to jump on a call? I wanna talk about that meeting earlier.” And we did, and I told him straight out, “I don't know if it's conscious or unconscious. But I don't like the comments that you made,” and he apologized, we've moved forward. We now have daily meetings just me and him and I feel like I felt free after that. Just free.  

Like yes, it was a little awkward in the moment, but there was something liberating about standing up for myself and also it was like, I feel like I gave my mind a break. I didn't have to spend like two days obsessing over what I wish I said to him or how I wish I had handled it. Like I just did it and I talked about this in the book like stress can be seen as a challenge like these experiences you don't have to fear them, we can say “I'm going to challenge myself to do this awkward thing.” And what we're really doing is saving our mind hours and days of just obsessing and overanalyzing. 

Christine: Mm hm, mh hm. You'll notice I'm looking down a little bit. I actually pulled quotes from the book, things that I really loved, or things that stood out to me and I might read a couple of them back to you because they feel like they tie in so much. [Lauren: I would love that.]  

Yeah, one of the ones that just popped into my head was your writing about this always being on or always saying yes, you talked about the fact that you always said yes to every invitation and I thought back to my younger self and I was like, “that's me. Yep.” I had a really bad case of FOMO for a long time, fear of missing out. And so, I pulled the quote and you said, “the fear of letting other people down trumped my own desire to just lie down.” 

Lauren: So true. I'm not like that anymore.  

Christine: [Laughs] Tell me about that. Like how has that changed for you and how has that changed your outlook? 

Lauren: So, I talk, you know, I talked in the book about this embarrassing meltdown I had in Bloomingdales just because like it was Saturday, Jay wanted to go look for a suit for our wedding. I didn’t want to go suit shopping for four hours, and this is when we were living in Brooklyn and we had to take, you know, two subways into Manhattan, it was middle of July, and Jay’s an easy-going guy. He wouldn't have cared if I said no, but I thought I had to be the dutiful wife and be like, you know, I just built this like scenario up in my head. Like I need to say yes to this.  

So, we did it and of course, you know, it's four hours. I'm depleted from the week. I wanted to spend the day relaxing and I have a meltdown and I realized it was so embarrassing. It's embarrassing for the, you know, the store person there. It’s embarrassing for Jay, it’s embarrassing for myself and I was like, “you know what, never again.” I would so much rather say no and have people be a little like annoyed at me not showing up then me say yes and act like a psycho. Like that kind of was like the defining moment.  

And now I just feel like yeah, and I'm trying to do that thing where I don't like lie when I say no, where I just kind of say like “I can't come I'm you know, I'm really tired from the week,” which is totally acceptable rather than, “oh I can't come like I don't feel well or I have plans with my parents,” because when you start to lie, then you have to start to remember your lies and then you have to worry about those lies and that will be like what if they see my Insta story of me not hanging out with my parents. So, I just found it so much easier in all instances to just tell people like “no, I need time for myself. I can't go,” and those… and as I said the more we do this, the more people start to accept it and respect it and do it themselves.  

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. And you talk a lot about the tension between being on social media, but also some of the dark side of social media and how it has a real impact on our moods when we're watching people that we know, people that we care about having their lives on social media and that moment of “oh, I wasn't included” or “oh, that person's doing something that I may never do,” and the impact that that can have. And yet you also have a following on social media, you also have a community on social media. How do you navigate those tensions or how have you noticed that you have to take care of yourself while also being a public figure in social media circles?  

Lauren: So, the thing is, I don't consider myself a public figure because Words of Women was anonymous for so long, and it's funny because I created Words of Women to do the opposite of what I think social media does, which is kind of to disrupt the feed. So I feel like when you're on social media, all you do is see like your friends hanging out without you, all these people doing this amazing stuff, and then like beautiful women with filters and it's just, it's not setting the right space for yourself and I was like, “well what if in between all these images we saw just like an amazing quote that was about like, you know, life and love or just like loving ourselves and it kind of just like makes you rethink about how you're thinking,” and that was kind of like the point of it and I think I got a little addicted to it because it was helping me so much to reframe my thoughts. But I really just felt like, you know, I know how I feel when I'm on social media and I don’t like how I think when I when I'm on social media. I don't like my thoughts from what I see. So, like what if I just started seeing other stuff and looking at, you know, other things besides all this fake stuff. And I feel like it's really helped me and, however, it is hard to find... I will say that's where I have the biggest work-life balance issue because I could do it all day long and I do need to stop at times and take time for myself and take time out, but I will say with Words of Woman, I do think I try and be the opposite of what I consider like a social media influencer, like I don't filter myself, I try to give the opposite messages I think not that anyone's giving bad messages but you know what I mean. 

Christine: Yeah, it almost seems like that practice of changing our thoughts can change how we see the world. Change our perspective. 

Lauren: Exactly. And we have this you know built-in negativity bias so like, the more we allow that to continue, the stronger it gets. I think of it like a current, and like you kind of have to just start making yourself train it to go down the other path and you really have to start looking for things that will make you think more positively. Because it doesn't happen on its own and you really have to try and look for these things that make you excited to be alive and you know happy and I think the more we see of that you know the easier it is to start switching those pathways.  

Christine: Mm hm. Right, you know that evolutionary theory that our negativity bias is part of our survival mechanisms. But what we also know is that staying in survival mode all the time is in and of itself a very depleting experience. We're looking out for what might destroy us as opposed to being in a state of calm where we're being in relationship with others. 

Lauren: Yeah, and it's a catch-22 for women, especially because we've developed this from like evolutionary patterns, women have developed, because we had to take care of our children, we developed this ability to constantly be on the lookout for emotional cues because we want to see like is someone a threat or to me and my baby. Yet, that makes women twice as likely to suffer from anxiety and depression.  

So, it's evolutionary, and I think we have to train ourselves out of this way that were predisposed to kind of think. And I also think we also need to talk about it more, because I know I start to feel crazy because I think differently than my husband and like I do like noticing he doesn't. So, I'll say like, “ooo, I got a weird look from that guy like, do you get that weird vibe?” And he's like “no, why are you paying attention to that?” and I always thought I was a little crazy but then I understood no, this is like part of being a woman and I think you know, my mind is wired a little differently and I do notice these changes in people and it's what makes me empathetic, but it's also it's given me all this anxiety. So, there's like a fine balance of understanding like, I want to have empathy, but I also can't let like a look from the barista at Starbucks ruin my day. Like, I'm trying to find a middle ground. 

Christina: And one of the things that you touch on a lot in the book and that really stood out to me was also how people who identify as women do this with other people who identify with women. That there is this way in which the comparison piece becomes really really strong and becomes part of the mood setting process. And, it really stood out to me, in the book you talked about one of the major shifts for you. One of the major changes was when you discovered the phrase that you started telling yourself. You're not pretty like her. You're pretty like you.  

Lauren: Oh yeah, that was huge. Huge for me. I mean, I made it into a sticker, put it on my phone because it’s weird how phrases get stuck in our heads like and they can just, I just think women always look at other women and think “she's better than me.” And we, we’re so used to looking in the mirror and just seeing our flaws. Like, I look in the mirror, I don't see myself, I see what's wrong with myself. Right? And we carry that around all day long and then we see other women, and we don't see what's wrong with them, we see what’s beautiful with them. So we forget that other women aren't seeing our flaws in other people, they're seeing what's beautiful about us. We’re the only ones who see all these negative things.  

And so, when I started understanding, so I put that sticker that I made “You're not pretty like her. You're pretty like you.” I was like this has such an effect on me. Like even though it was just a phrase and it was just for a second I was like, I feel like if I can keep hearing it, I can really start to like change my life around it, in a way. So when I put it on my phone what happened was whenever was walking down the street and saw like a beautiful girl or some billboard with like Kendall Jenner on it and started to feel that, you know pain of inadequacy I would look at it and be like, yeah, I’m not Kendall Jenner, but I'm me and I'm beautiful in my own way, and my husband thinks I’m beautiful, my friends think I’m beautiful, and I know I have amazing things to give and I swear after five years I didn't, the sticker fell off but like, it completely changed the way I look at women. And of course, I still have insecurity sometimes, but it's really changed the way I look at myself and compare myself to women and I think we just need to take a little bit of, we just need to be kinder to ourselves and then in doing that we’re also being less judgmental of others. 

Christine: Yeah. Yeah, right before COVID hit, I started… I walk my dog. Most days. It would be untrue for me to say every day. She wishes I did, but some days it doesn't happen. And when I walk my dog, I have a silent meditation that I do for myself. It's just five words, but it's kind of been very similar and my five words are gratitude, kindness, self-love, resilience, and forgiveness. And I just say them, in repetition, over and over again. And the cool thing is that I definitely notice myself calm down. I have a French Bulldog, and she is not a calm dog. I also notice that she calms down. So, it makes me remember that emotions are also contagious, moods are contagious, that we share them with each other without even speaking. 

Lauren: Well, that was the whole thing. I really realized I needed to write this book because I saw my husband is so chill and he’s such a level-headed guy and I was starting to infect him in a way and like like and I remember he said this thing and it really hurt me, and I don't even know if we fought about it, I just remember being really upset about it. And he said “I think you’ve given me anxiety.” As in, I never had anxiety until I met you. And I was like, that is like the most horrible thing to hear someone say to you and that was like, you know. I don't think you can give someone anxiety, but I understood what he was saying like, I pick up on your vibe and it makes me anxious, because you're anxious.  

And I realized how powerful like we are but imagine if we all were calmer and that calm just transferring it, and that gratitude, or that empathy instead of all this negativity. And and I really hope you know, there's so many aspects of the book, but I really hope like the larger one is that you know enough people read it and enough people can really start working on themselves in small ways like the way you do. Just like saying, you know those phrases, those intentions and keeping them in mind, then the next time you have an experience your reaction changes and then it's not this chain reaction, it kind of like breaks the chain a little bit and I think the world would be a little bit of a kinder, softer place to live.  

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. Yeah. I'm thinking about the organization Six Seconds, they do emotional intelligence training. I don't know why they popped into my mind, except one of the things that one of the teachers from that organization talks about is that there are no such thing as bad emotions, or negative emotions. That all emotions are information, and when I was reading your book, I kind of picked up on that too, because you were describing what happens, and then you're describing the lesson that you've learned from really examining that experience.  

Lauren: Yeah, and I think there's a story about Nora Ephron that I talked about and the whole everything is copy, which I kind of pull this writing advice into life advice and it's like… everything that happens to you doesn't have to be bad. It can be like this terrible terrible thing that happened to you is actually probably a really funny cocktail story, or really interesting anecdote, or it’s your next book. So, it's the way that you know, these things these emotions happen to us and it's the way that we act on them and perceive them and kind of move through them that really makes them live and we can change them, and everything has a purpose, and you can learn from everything and as I say like I find that makes me less stressed when I realized I can examine this mood. It doesn't have to overtake me. I can pull myself out of it. And I think that's what makes you know, that's what I want people to get out of this. Like start being less scared of your emotions and start examining them more and start really looking at them and you don't have to be like looking at, you know it doesn't have to be homework or anything, but just like it takes you out of it and makes it less personal, I think.  

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. You offer such a brilliant set of questions in the book that feel really related to what we're talking about. This reflective stance, this ability to slow down a little bit and take a step back and before acting asking these four questions. You say, the questions are what's the best thing that's likely to happen if I act? What's the worst thing that's likely to happen if I act? What's the best thing that's likely to happen if I do not act? What's the worst thing that's likely to happen if I do act? 

Lauren: Yeah, I still do that. I think I wrote that for the family chapter, and it was all about like, am I going to make this comment at dinner tonight? What is the worst thing that can happen if I say it? And if I don’t say it, it’s usually the best. But just taking that… it's again taking the time to slow down and evaluate yourself and like is this, you know taking that pause, going through life a little bit more slowly. And that's really just I feel like that's where I was coming into all these clashes like with my family, with my friends. I was just reacting constantly.  

Like my friend would send me a text and I would just perceive it one way and respond and then it would cause a chain reaction. And the same thing like with my parents like if I would go home and we'd have like an argument at dinner. Like, do I need to make a comment to my sister or is it best left alone? And taking the time to evaluate ourselves and our motives and why we want to say things and you know why it’s best we don't, is a lot of times going to save us the anxiety that causes so many of our moods, I think. So, in a way, you could say the book is two parts, like stopping your moods and also stopping them from happening. 

Christine: And the through line there to me seemed like it was about self-awareness.  

Lauren: Yes. 

Christine: About really waking up to what's happening inside before it leaks out, outside.  

Lauren: Exactly. That's exactly what it is. And I think about you know… Okay, so like Cheryl Strayed went on this amazing journey where she like walked for miles, and Elizabeth Gilbert went to ashrams and Italy in Eat, Pray, Love. Like, I didn't do any of that. I didn't have this big spiritual journey. I didn't I can't say I went to India, but I spent five years studying myself just you know walking through New York City, living the average person's life. But unlike how I had previously been I was super aware and alive to myself because I knew I was writing this book, and I think that's what changed. I was like, I could examine myself for the first time and I was having these subway delays, but instead of just breaking down and getting annoyed I was like, “why is this annoying me so much? Why am I letting this get the best me? What can I do to stop this?” So, it was like a big experiment and that in itself I think was really helpful and it softened the mood, with self-awareness. 

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. I want to shift gears for a minute. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about your life as a creative person, your life as a writer. How did you become a writer? How did that that calling manifest in your life?  

Lauren: So, I really, really, really believe in two main philosophies. One is a Diana Vreeland quote and that is “there is only one very good life and that's the life you know you want, and you make it yourself.” And the other one is “if they don't give you a seat at the table bring a folding chair” that’s Shirley Chisholm. So, I feel like for me being a writer is one of those things that you it's very fantasized like it's very like, you know, we have these notions about it. And I was in the publishing industry and it is very difficult and it’s competitive and it's very disheartening and I think a lot of people who want to be writers feel they have it in them but are too like “no one's ever going to publish me. I can't do that. I'll no one's going to read my writing.”  

I read those posts when I graduated college with a marketing degree, not an English degree. My parents wanted they were like we want you to be able to make money like do marketing and, but I took this English class my senior year, me and the teacher really hit it off. He's like, I think you should go to New York and just try it and I was like; you know what I'm going to do it. Went to New York, had no job, walked to different restaurants until someone would hire me as a waitress, had enough money for a month, but I had this determination that like, I will figure it out, I will get this job. And I did meet someone at that restaurant who started a blog which was leaked daily, which got bought by The Daily Mail, but you just need to like have that faith in yourself.  

So anyway, it's really hard to get a publishing deal and I was like, you know what? I'm never going to get it the traditional route. I don't want to wait for the traditional way. I need to make my own way. And I feel like if you are bold enough you can get you know, what you want in life and have to really, I think writers are very insecure because you know, it's scary to put your words out there. But I was like, I'm just going to start Worth of Women and it's gonna be my blog. I'm not going to wait for anyone else’s blog and for five years people were like, what are you doing? Like my parents were like when are you like going to focus on your real job and like stop this? Like, even my husband was like what are you like, what are you doing with this account, what’s the point? I was like, I'm going to write a book one day like that is the plan and I think you really need to like stick to your guns and it's and that's how I feel. I think it's hard to be a creative this day and age. It's feels like there's a lot of noise out there. You gotta break through it and you have to find your niche and you have to find you know, how am I going to build my platform? I have to stick with it because success doesn't come overnight. It's like every day. And I think perseverance is probably more important than the writing itself.  

Christine: How is it that a moody woman, I say that from one to another, I hope you take it in the spirit meant. [Laughs] 

Lauren: I love it. Please, I love it. 

Christine: How is it that you find the resources for perseverance, find the resources for that dedication when the moods are having their ebbs and tides and coming and going? And is that fuel in some way for your work? 

Lauren: I've always said it was fuel and the problem was though, I was resting on it as it's okay that I have these terrible moments because I'm a creative. But it wasn't okay. Like it was, you know sabotaging my relationship and I was drinking a lot. I wasn't, I didn't have a handle on it. And once I got a handle on it so I can channel it much better and I think you know being moody is, being emotional it is a gift. We have all these things; we feel these things. If I didn't feel these things, I don't think I could write the way I write or write about things I write about. But you know, there is, you have to be able turn it off like a faucet.  

Like I think that's where your power comes from being able to control yourself and their urges that move through you. And honestly Worth of Women I think, having that like I know I do it for the book and for women by I do it for myself. Like I look for quotes that help motivate me to keep going. Like, I need something today that is gonna fuel me. So a lot of the quotes on the account are actually from other women writers or artists. And it's kind of like their mantras or the things that they have said to themselves that help them. And honestly, it's really, I'm posting it for myself as much as I'm posting it for social media.  

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lauren: I need those women out there saying like what you needed like, you know, I'm just Coco Chanel started as nothing, you know what I mean? She was just a poor girl, an orphan. Like, you need these women. Diana Vreeland, who was the editor and chief of Vogue never had a college degree, I don't even know if she finished high school. So like, you need to see these women, and you need to hear them and I think it's very inspirational to read their quotes. 

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. Yeah, and it’s, it's that sense that there is no one exact right way to do things.  

Lauren: Exactly it. That’s exactly it. Like stop feeling like you're, you can't do it. Like there's only you know, if you haven't done it now, you'll never like. You can one hundred percent do it. There's so many writers who are like I didn't pick up a pen until I was 45 and now I'm winning the Pullitzer. And I think it's really important that we see that because I don't think we ever see that. We just see the success and we’re like “oh, they were always successful.” That was you know, they had an in, they knew someone, they’re just geniuses. But we don't see the stories of the people who are like no this is like really how I did it and this is hard, but this is what, the way I made my way in. 

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. And I mean there are lists now like and I know that there have been lists like this for a long time, but I feel like the presence of lists like 30 under 30 create this sense that there is a very strict narrative that. 

Lauren: A cutoff. 

Christine: Yeah. That after 30 it's too late. 

Lauren: Oh, yeah, and it's like you're striving for the doing this thing by 30. I even had it in my head. I was like, I got to get this book out before I’m 30, so I can be on 30 under 30. What is that list? Who makes that less? Like I always say like who makes national donut day like who makes these decisions and why are we letting them define us? Like, who cares? [Christine: Mm hm] I think if anything it's almost more awesome to see people succeed later in life. I think it takes you know, you have a you know, it shows the guts and the time and the effort someone put in and you're like. I think even now as we live in this generation where everyone's changing jobs all the time, [snapping] there's something to be said when you see the someone who's been in a job like 10, 15, 20 years someone who’s been honing their craft, someone who’s dedicated themselves to something. I think that's a lot to the lot more now than maybe five years ago when I would see 30 under 30. I was like, oh wow, these kids are so young and successful. Now I'm like, ah, they got lucky or they worked hard. But like that's nothing compared to like, you know, the sixty-year-old who just won a prize and has been writing for 30 years. That's much more impressive to me. So, there's no cutoff date.  

Christine: I often tell people I started my doctorate when I was 32. And I had six careers before then. 

Lauren: And for a lot of women, people especially think like 30s, you know, oh well. 

Christine: It’s over. 

Lauren: So just like a lot of there's a lot of pressure like it's all downhill. Yeah, like. So I feel I do feel like there's that needs to be shown more that. I don't even know why we have those lists anyway. Maybe I'm just jealous I’m not on there. 

Christine: [Laughs] And we’re back to envy. Another mood. 

Lauren: Yeah, we are. Exactly, except it's not a mood anymore. It's now like, named it, come through it, I think. 

Christine: Uh-huh, yeah! Right, right. And the question that was on the heels of that was what moods that we call positive, or what rules that we tend to validate as good moods better? What moods do you feel more frequently these days, now that you've done this project? 

Lauren: Well, I definitely feel I try to lean into gratitude more… definitely noticing like wow, like look at my husband here like, I have this amazing man who you know, this partner I never thought I would have. Wow! Look at this book I just made… whereas before like you I would just obsess over a negative comment about the book. And I think you know gratitude is a great mood that I've really been trying to practice more and or realize when I'm experiencing it and leaning into it. I just had another one and I just forgot it.  

I mean feeling successful, I think we should you know take time to be like look at what I just accomplished and look what I just did today, and you know but there are some days when I send a few emails but like to me I'm like that was pretty good, you know? I was tired and I still got my work done, and I did fine. And I think leaning into those moments, I think we're so hard on ourselves so when you have those moments where you know like you feel that like second of pride, or success you should really like lean into it and I've been trying to do that a lot more. 

Christine: Yeah, I've been deep leaning into joy these days. 

Lauren: Oh, that’s a good one. 

Christine: It's a new one to me it's a… it's got so much to it and I don't take it for granted when experience it and I think that's what's been really an amazing recognition. 

Lauren: And you're noticing it, yeah. And I think I talk in the book women especially don't take the time to treat themselves or to like let themselves really fall into those moments of self-indulgence, which I also consider joy sometimes. Like let yourself enjoy this moment. It doesn't have to be like, I should be doing something else right now. If I'm you know not working like I feel like we're almost like masochists when it comes to our own joy. So that's a great one.  

Christine: Can you talk a little bit, you talk about this in the book and you break it down pretty specifically with relationship to a lesson that you learn from Buddhism, around the concept of self-cherishing. You just talked a little bit about self-indulgence, but I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what this idea of learning self-cherishing is all about as well. 

Lauren: Yes. So self-cherishing is like all about the ego, right? And so, we get really bogged down in thinking that our problems are the only problems and you know, we are the center of our own universes. So our suffering is obviously the most important suffering and it's a sense of self-cherishing. And the only way to get out of it is to think like, almost think I imagine it's like a zoom out effect of like you see one person then you see the whole world.  

And the only way is, I think it's called Tonglen, and it's this practice where so let’s say you're you know, feeling really bad. Say you have a huge zit, you're feeling ugly, you’re like why don't I look like Kendall Jenner? I hate myself. You think about all the other women who are probably feeling the same way and what happens is you look in the mirror and you go, you breathe in and it's like almost like you're breathing in their pain and then you breathe out a prayer for them. And it's this antidote to self-cherishing, it's forcing you and it's so comforting and I do it now because I you're supposed to breathe out a healing like healing for them. Like you say to yourself like when I breathe out, I hope these women feel better feel better, their pain is lessened. And what happens is it's like this like tranquilizer to self-cherishing because it makes you realize how insignificant like your problems. Everyone has a sack of rocks. Everybody is carrying something. Everybody has a problem and when you can stop seeing yourself as the only one, I think you feel a little better.  

There’s like there's something to be said about collective suffering and feeling like loneliness isn't felt when you know other people feel it cause you’re lonely together… and that's I think really important. I think that's also a big lesson of the book like, you're not the only person who feels this way and why don't instead of you focusing so much on your pain, think about how to heal other people or ways that you can just start giving maybe more gratitude out. And it's really changed my life when I understood that that concept.  

Christine: Yeah, in addiction recovery that phenomenon is also referred to as terminal uniqueness. When I heard that term, it's that sense of my problems are the biggest problems. I carry the biggest weight you no one understands my experience. [Lauren: Yeah] It's when the shift comes of that connection, that recognizing that we all experience. All of the spectrum of emotion, you know that that really can become so much more clear.  

Lauren: And they always say like, the antidote who said it… It's like when you feel sorry for yourself, what you should do is go help someone else. Like in your lowest moments that’s really when you're supposed to like go see the people who are worse off than you and you'll stop feeling so bad for yourself. And I think for me it just it really comes down to knowing other women feel the same way. I think women have this urge to heal, so it's like when I think of the other women I go well, I need to like get my act together and think about how I can help them feel less bad about themselves. Like I stop focusing so much on myself and start thinking about you know, my friends and also I just think women's pain is very insular. So when we start to think of pain as being collective and like we're not the only ones feeling this way, it doesn't feel as bad and we don't feel like we're carrying it alone and as much and…. 

Christine: Mm hm, mm hm. Yeah. Okay. I've got a couple of like little quick-fire questions that I want to pick your brain about. Are you ready?  

Lauren: Yeah. 

Christine: Okay. I'd love to know what you've been up to since you completed the book. What does life look like for you since you created the book?  

Lauren: I've actually moved home to Philadelphia, got a much bigger apartment because it's much cheaper than New York. Um…I'm… got married, but I talked about that in the book. So, it's funny because I've been nervous about writing more because I'm superstitious but then I saw this Abraham-Hicks thing which was like, I believe manifestation. Like, if you have a book coming out you should be writing your second book like start manifesting that so I'm working on a second book, thinking about getting pregnant, working. Just I don't know we'll see about that. But it's on the horizon. And yeah, I mean I think pandemic has kind of thwarted a lot of my plans unfortunately, but so far just living my best life, I guess.  

Christine: And you're still continuing Words of Women? 

Lauren: Of course, I'm addicted. I don't think I'll ever stop. It's yeah, so much more. It's like a, it's a therapy for me at this point. 

Christine: What is the most important thing to you right now? It can be anything. 

Lauren: Right now, it's family, I think. I think we've all found in quarantine like how important family really is when you can't see them and also how much we cherish the moments and there's all this horrible, horrible news going on and I also worry about my parents more now, they're older and it I realized that worry is also love so it's like I think we're all I think families are coming closer and that's probably right now the biggest thing on my mind.  

Christine: What advice or what recommendations would you give to 12-year-old Lauren or to young women and young girls right now when it comes to living our life of moods? 

Lauren: Moods are natural, don't be so scared of them. Stop being so hard on yourself. Sadness is not something to fear. Every emotion passes, right? I used to think if I'm sad right now, I'm just always going to be sad and sadness fades very quickly and you just have to ride through it and don't try. Don't get so caught up in your emotions. Don't act out of emotional responses, but also just be gentle with yourself and everything will work out and you'll grow into the woman you're supposed to be.  

Christine: Yeah, thank you for that. And lean on each other I guess is the other piece that I would invite with that too. 

Lauren: I love that.  

Christine: Um, what's one thing that you're still holding about The Book of Moods or about a life lesson that you want to share about how you turned your worst moods into your best life? 

Lauren: [Sighs] I have think about that for a second. I really wrote it out… Like I feel like it with this it's funny because my friend, I let my friend read an early copy and she was like “this is a love letter to yourself like you know that, right?”  And I was like “what?” She's like “this is like such a beautiful piece of self-exploration, but you can tell you're really just going through it, like it's not you writing five years later. You're clearly in the midst of reckoning with yourself and feelings.” So, I feel like it was almost like a rebirth. Like I feel like I've a shed a skin since I've written it, and really become this new woman.  

And I think the biggest lesson I would just say it's like, you are emotional. We need to take ownership of one being emotional, instead of always like I talked about this in the PMS chapter, just always being like no. Like I don't, I'm not getting… You might be getting your period and that's okay and like that changes how our chemical balances, our hormones. You might also just be moody, and that's okay. So, like lean into that and try and like figure out what works for you and I think once you accept that you are an emotional woman and as you like said like one moody woman to another. I like that term. So, I'm trying to kind of lean into those findings I'm figuring out about myself. I am emotional, more emotional than my husband, and that doesn't have to be something I suppress and hide and I'm ashamed of so, that'd probably be it.  

Christine: Mh hm.Yeah. That is such a wonderful way to bring our conversation to rest tonight. So I really, I just want to thank you so much for spending time with us tonight. And it's just been delightful to get to know you and your work and thank you for sharing your words of wisdom with us tonight. 

Lauren: Of course, I so appreciate you having me here and talking about the book. I mean, there's a lot to go over and I feel like we really covered it and it just has been so nice to like speak to other people who read it and finally be able to discuss it. So, thank you so much. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  
 
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