CIIS Public Programs Podcast

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[Cheerful theme music begins] 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Family Constellations begins with this premise—it did not start with me. Many of us become “entangled” with the unhappiness of those who came before us, unconsciously adopting destructive familial patterns of anxiety, depression, failure, and even illness and addiction. Family Constellations therapist Marine Sélénée has been using her unique approach to this philosophy to help her clients get to the root of their pain. In this episode, CIIS faculty in Expressive Arts Therapy Mimi Savage joins Marine for an inspiring and empowering introduction to Family Constellations and how we can all harness this philosophy to take ownership of our lives. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on October 14th, 2021. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

[Theme music concludes] 

Mimi: Welcome Marine. 

Marine: Thank you so much Mimi. 

Mimi: I'm so happy to meet you. I've read your book and I want to first off just thank you for the frankness of your writing. It's very personalized and I think that's what makes it an amazing way of sharing and teaching. [Marine: Thank you so much.] And, and it makes it all very clear, you know, in this personalized way of explaining family constellations therapy. I actually was going to ask you another question, right off the bat, but suddenly I'm inspired to ask you what- And I think there's a meta level response to this. [both laugh] So, I'm hoping it's not a leading question. I have an idea suddenly that's come to me. But what inspired you to write this book? Because I, I've read the story. About you going to England to learn English and you've written this book in not your mother tongue, right? And, and here you are. And so that's my question. What inspired you, what- What inspired you now to write this book, or in the last couple of years. I know it takes time. 

Marine: I think I just wanted to acknowledge the first 36 years of my life. I also wanted to honor my story, my past, my family. And I don't know. I do think, you know, that family constellations is still, you know, not that common therapy, you know, like just a few people, know about family constellations. If you want to know more about that therapy, of course, you have that Hellinger book, you know, like he's a founder of Family Constellations, but maybe it's a bit too difficult, you know, complicated to understand his way of doing family constellations. Then there is a fabulous book of one of my teachers, Mark Wolynn: It Did Not Start with You. But again, he has another view, angle, perception I would say towards family constellations. And then there is me, the French one publishing in English, and I just wanted to decentralize, you know, like the word therapy and family constellations and just maybe give the opportunity of people like me, you know, like to just understand that if you take care of your family story, if you take care of your past and you owner all of them, you can, you know, like have a beautiful life. So yeah, that was my goal, you know like to give faith to my readers. Yeah. 

Mimi: Well, it comes through, and it makes me think of towards the end of the book, this passage of a very personal story and how it's come full circle, you know, you in England, you experiencing trauma as a young girl and your parents investing in you to learn the language. And here you are. So, I just- It hit me. There is an image of that child in you now as a facilitator and I just thought that was a beautiful image.  

So, for those who don't know, and for those who do, just a little reminder of how you defined family constellations. I'm just going to give the blurb. In your intro, you define family constellations as “a therapeutic approach that considers individuals as part of a greater- great transgenerational whole called a family system, rather than lone actors”. And I hear actors and players and as a drama therapist, I get very excited. But it seems like the pivotal aim of this therapy is to experience a reconciliation between your past and present of what was and what is, and there's this secret weapon that, the secret weapon that you mention that you write about in the book. Can you unpack that a little bit? 

Marine: Yes, sure. So, family constellations therapy, if you are not, if you don't know about, you know that method, it's all about uncovering and dissolving any blockages affecting your life through the story of your family. Meaning you go back to the story, you go back to former generations. You dive deeper into it. You also take a deeper look on your childhood, on what happened to you, what you witnessed as a child, as a teenager, as a young adult. And then finally you enter the knowing field, which is a constellation itself. Where I would say everything happens. It's like a theater, you know, like a role player where you're going to channel repressed emotions and say things. Discovering, maybe secrets, recognizing the pain, but not through, who is it to blame for or complain, or who is the guilty one? No, family constellation is a way of bringing back together what was once separated with no judgment. Only with love, acceptance, and respect. And that's what I truly love with family constellation is you just become responsible for your life, for your destiny. And you understand that until you are not in charge of it, you might suffer, or you might repeat over and over again the same pattern or behavior or toxic, you know, like mindset or thoughts.  

So that's what- that's what I love family constellations because I don't know, for me. It was like, okay. I'm in charge. It's up to me. It does not matter what I did experience as a child, as a teenager, as a young adult. What matters is what I'm going to do with it. And I really wanted to reconcile my past to be fully free in my present moment. I mean in my book, you know, as a first time I did a constellation it was to understand my love life because at 25 I thought it was my father’s fault. You know, that I could not, you know, attract great men. So, I was frustrated about it. And then family constellations offered me another reality, and not a reality where again, I was complaining and blaming someone else, you know, for my terrible love life, but it was just giving me tools and clues that look at the entire story. It's not only about one person. It's not only about your father. It's your entire family. And all of the women and all of the men that did play a part in it. So, finally understanding, you know, that collectiveness, you know, that it's only just one person messing it up. It tremendously helped me. 

Mimi: Well, I can see how you’re inspired because you've lived it. It's a lived experience, and it sounds ideal. And it sounds wonderful. I'm ready to study. [both laugh] But I’m also looking at this because I'm thinking of, you know, rupture extreme cases of buying into this because you mentioned unreliable narratives. And when I hear that, I think of, you know, narrative trained folks, like me, you know, problem saturated narratives, problem saturated stories that we carry with us. You know, I'm a loser. I'm this. And, and also, it's wonderful. You speak of the founder, or maybe you didn't, Bert Hellinger, and this collectivistic idea. And you know, also it's postmodern period when this is all developing, evolving with his studies in the 60s and his training, so it's this idea that you're not the problem. The problem is the problem, and it is more we're in this together viewpoint, but with that. I how do you- how do you- how does the client, especially the client that's coming from cultural rupture and I'm skipping ahead here because I really do want to dig into that a little bit and I'm certain you will because it's in your book. How do you buy into that? You're saying I went in for this seemingly simple question, you know, like why am I not finding the love of my life or whatever and then you- you went further in. And how do you as the facilitator facilitate the person who has such rupture in the background and in the foreground. There are, you know, there are people who are- it's constant. It's not a past history. It's now there's rupture, there's disenfranchisement happening now. There's not- there's no belonging. You mentioned belonging even. Yeah, it's not happening now. There's no way to make it happen now. You heard that I study, you know foster care and- 

Marine: Yes. Yep. 

Mimi: There is no, even understanding of that wonderful feeling because I've never had it, that type of vibe, right? So, how does the client buy into this? 

Marine: So, first thing first, foster kids and adopted children, I would say it is a most difficult story to heal from because you don't have roots or at least, you know, like you do not feel that you belong. Because you don't have mom and dad, you know, like your biological parents, for whatever reason, you know, like, it happened that you were adopted or put into foster care. So, I have a few clients, adopted ones, you know, like foster kids and I have a huge admiration for them because we are going to work on two things. The first thing is you do have roots. No matter what, you will have a mom and dad forever. Otherwise, you would not be here with me today. That's for sure. And then, when you got the chance. You have a wonderful adopted family, like lovely, you know, like adopted, mom and dad. What we do in family constellation is we recognize the biological parents. Thank you so much because thanks to you, I was able to become a mother and I was able to become a father. So, we make room for the whole parents, you know, like being behind the child, so then the child can also receive from the four of them. Because then, most of the time, what happens is subconsciously, there is a feeling of guilt. May I love my adopted parents? Especially when you do know that your biological parents are still alive. And then maybe you learn that actually they stayed together, and they had other children together. But you are the only one who was adopted.  

And then, of course, there is more terrible and awful stories. Like abusive, you know, families, you know, like first their kids being, you know, like foster parents, after parents, you know, like not finding your place being completely lost. And that's the first thing first, is that feeling of belonging. I belong, I have a place. Every child needs to be seen, heard, and recognized. That's how you do know deep in your core that I belong. I have a place. So yeah, like being adopted or foster child is the most difficult pattern I would say to heal because you need to create a new foundation and it's on you. It's really on you to develop, you know like that I can have an inner mother an inner father, like so it takes more time, not gonna lie here.  

Then for adult now, with normal family, you know, what I’m saying, just like, mom, dad, you know? Like- How it works, of course, you know, like, I had skeptical clients trying to be like, how does that work, Marine? You know, like, I really don't buy it. I hate my mom. I cannot stand my sister, you know, believe me. It’s been almost 10 years that I've been doing it, so I heard a lot of things, you know, and stories. The thing is and I would say the difference with family constellations is yes, there is your story. Of course, we all have a story. But it is up to you to write the end of that story. Maybe you were born in a very abusive family, completely dysfunctional one, like awful. But now you are an adult. And I do believe that despite the worst nightmare that you could have experience with your family. You still have the right to be happy. You still have the right to smile again and to give that gift to your inner child and with family constellations, the story I don't want to say it's pointless, meaningless, because that's not true. However, we do not entirely focus on the story. As your story does not define who you are, you define who you are. And when you do the constellation, we are actually going to work with your emotions and your feelings and with your emotions and feelings, you cannot lie. You can come to me and tell me Marine, I hate my mom. I want her to die. But as soon as you are going to enter the knowing field doing your constellation, you are actually going to feel that scream within yourself. I just wanted to be loved. Because at the end of the day, we all want the same thing: to be loved. 

Mimi: So is this where that secret weapon comes into play, you know- 

Marine: I would say. 

Mimi: Which you described is just acknowledge what is. 

Marine: Exactly. And what was. 

Mimi: And what was. What is and what was. And- and not to have anything around that just it is what it is. 

Marine: Yeah that's- Bert Hellinger is from Germany, you know, so that's straightforward, you know, like deal with it. 

Mimi: I was going to say because of what you just mentioned knowing where he came from, he came from post-war and it is what it is, you know, the Nazis were responsible for the Holocaust and it and all of the remains of what that looked like and that the rubble and the rupture and the damage was what it is. It is what it is, and he saw that, and he was a priest before that, right? So, and he spent 16 years in South Africa. [Marine: Yes.] It's- so something happened there, so that he designed and devised this way of working, that really was very concrete. It's not- There's, it's very concrete and the way you're describing it, although there's love and all of those things that you mention it, it does sound very concrete, and you were going to say something. I'm sorry. I wondered if it was something to do about those narratives that we bring in, but I still wonder how you buy into, you know, I have these narratives in my head, like you said and that's a population that's really tough. Maybe the way to look at this is like a mock- walk- How does this work in action? You know, I know what it work- looks like in a drama therapeutic action. There's roleplay, there's role reversal. There's constellations, there’s psychodrama, a lot of the imagination use. And I wonder, what does that look like, actualized in- in this method? I'm curious about method. 

Marine: So, I'm going to try my best to describe family constellations in a workshop.  

Mimi: Okay. 

Marine: Because you can do both, you can do in a workshop and also one on one, you know. In a workshop you are going to be with participants that usually you don't know them at all. They are complete strangers. Okay. So, you are going to ask to do your own constellation and the facilitator is going to ask you, what would you want to work on? So then again, you can say my love life, my health, Holocaust Survivor like, you know, whatever. The participant. Again, they do not know you, they do not know your story, your emotions, your feelings, your relationship with your family are going to re-present for you family members or situations or emotions connected to the issue that you would like to work on and ultimately break free, you know from it. So, the facilitator is going to ask a few participants to enter the knowing field. So, knowing field is the room where the workshop is happening. Okay, and then the facilitator will ask the participants to find their place in the field wherever they feel they want to stand up. We can maybe be in your corner of the room, right in front of the client, you know, like doing his constellation. Like, it's really like, just follow your gut feeling, connect to your second brain, you know, like your gut. And then, the facilitator is going to ask. Okay, just all take a deep breath, and you're just connect with your emotions, feelings, and tension. I'm going to ask you just one question. How do you feel? And at that moment, you are not going to feel your own emotions and feelings. You are going to start experiencing someone's else’s. And you do know that don't belong to you and your job as a representative is to channel, you know, like this emotion and feeling and then the client is, of course, going to hear, you know, like all of the different participants sharing, you know, like their feelings and honestly, 90% of the time. It's just spot-on. Like, yes, that's a dynamic here. I can see my mom. I can see my dad, and me, it's been ten years now that I've been doing family constellations, offering family constellations, and I can guarantee you like when I was representing, you know, like for someone else constellation, I had pain in my body that was not mine, you know, that was not mine. I was like no.  

And so, then the facilitator is just going to lead the constellation, you know, based on the feelings and emotions and sensations, you know, like happening in the field and it's just like, it's pure. There is again, there is no more judgment. There is no more game. Of course, sometimes a participant is going to try, you know, like to have fun to fool you around, but you can see it right away, you know, like so you're just like, you know what? Thank you so much for everything. Could you please take a seat and I'm going to ask another participant you know to take your place, you know, like also sometimes the participant is going to be like I want to talk about me. Oh, yeah, it's you're so much like you're like no it's not about you right now. It's about her. His constellation. So here again, very politely. Nice. You're like, you know what? Thank you so much for your help. Please have a seat and I'm going to take another participant.  

And then finally, when you are in that you can feel it, you know, like it's in your core, you know, like it's role playing with so much authenticity, honesty, its role, you know, like it's kind of like animal, you know, like you just go back to the basics of your life, you know like to just what is and finally, the facilitator is going to ask either the client or one of the participants to repeat sentences out loud. So, I am your mother, you're my father. I now see you. What you did was wrong. Very simple sentences. And at that moment your body because your body remembers everything. It's really imprinted. You know that, Mimi. At that moment. You are going to feel it that yes, it does resonate and at that moment, you know that even so, maybe it’s still wow, intense, powerful. You don't really understand how that person can represent my mum so accurately. She doesn't even know about her, you know like, but your emotions do not lie. So, then you just surrender to it. And you're just like, you know what? I'm just going to trust the process. I'm just going to do it and that's a beauty of the constellation. Like when you drop the resistance, when you are just in the moment, you’re like yeah, let's talk about this story. That's true. I just want to tell my mom I love you. I just want to look at my perpetrator. And be like, you know what you stay there. I will be here. So yeah. 

Mimi: Yeah, it’s an externalizing way of working. I have a- I may have missed this, I have a cup- and which is powerful because it's not, you know, it's put out of your body, right? And, and you can see it, you're removed from it. It's at a distance, It's a drama therapist's dream come true. But here's- here are my questions around that because I have a lens obviously, that's where I come from, and I really can see this and how it can work. Because for some, it might be the first time that you're putting those stories out, outside of their bodies, right? And they're like, I can see that. And the person doesn't necessarily need to know the depths of your life. They're just players on this, you know, chess board, right? So, here's one question. Does- does any of the backstory get told before the players go into the knowing space? 

Marine: I do just for 5-10 minutes. I ask a few questions to the client that Hellinger for example, right, at the end of his life, you know, like maybe five ten years, you know, like before he passed away. He just asked one question. What do you want to work on? One question? When you are a human being, I have to say more please, you know, so I would just what’s one sentence. 

Mimi: You think it's because it's so intuitive or because- 

Marine: I guess Bert Hellinger was like, no, I can see it's even more powerful to do it in silence. [Mimi: Hmm.] and just following the movement of your body. 

Mimi: Right. 

Marine: But he's a man of experience and his audience, you know, during his workshop. They were willing to, you know, like okay, we're just going to follow the master. [Mimi: Right.] It's me, I'm like, okay your healing is going to happen through silence. No, Marine, I do not buy it. I know I have to speak up because we do not trust our body. We do not trust our emotions while actually so much happens in the silence, but we are still afraid of you know that feeling of like, but it's empty Marine. I need to be distracted. I need to talk. I need to say that I was right. You know that and I'm like, yeah. You know what? I agree with you. Let's tell you know, but you know, so yeah like with my clients, Mimi. Yes, so 5-10 minutes, right? But you know what? Sometimes it goes my like- My last workshop, last week actually in LA for one of the participants. It only took me two minutes to get to know the picture in the back. Okay, let's do it. And she was like, but I didn't tell you everything like, that's okay, you said enough. [Mimi: Right.] And I was like, wow, you're becoming a badass, Marine you just do it? But it takes practice. [laughs] 

Mimi: Yeah. [laughs] It's intuitive too. I have to think that it's important and it's what we learn as therapists is to listen to our gut, right, you know, trusting the silence and it makes me think a little bit of what you were- you wrote about in your book. About the pause, and I say this to my students, the pause, take the pause because sometimes there's just so much junk. There's so much words, there’s so much agenda. There's so much of this. And, you know, I've been known to say, you know what, let's just stop. And so, you really do unpack that in your in- in what you write about the pause, you want to talk about that a little bit and what you mean by the pause. 

Marine: Yeah sure. For any types of modalities of- healing modalities of therapies. I think it's important to pause for just a few days a few weeks, because when you are going to share your experience, you know, like share your thoughts with your friend, your partner, or one of your children, of course that person wants to answer you back, you know, like and even maybe share her or his own story like oh, yeah, you know, it reminds me that it happened to me, not exactly the same but very lovely. But you are still processing a new picture, a new perception. Maybe it was very intense for you to finally drop your resistance, like stop complaining or blaming, you know, like or being like I'm the victim. So, I think it's always great to at least take two weeks. Self-processing. What you just uncovered, learned, got from your work, you know, with that facilitator. That therapist. Because we talk a lot and most of the time, say nothing. We also distract ourselves a lot because again, we are afraid of feeling. So, I think when we start our healing journey, we have so much to say because we still want to be right, you know, everyone wants to be happy. So, it changes everything. That I think it's also important to take your time. Just meet that new resolution, that new reconciliation may be that new awakening. Whatever happened to- to you, you know, like in that moment. Yeah, just take some time to make it yours. Because again, as I said to my clients, for me, it's going to make sense. But who cares? At the end of the day? I go back to my life. You go back to yours. [Mimi: Right.] So, make it yours. Reword my affirmations. Write your own sentences. Because also I don't know about you, but my clients sometimes are so attached to what I just said and like, who cares. Make it yours. Make it yours. It belongs to you. Not me. 

Mimi: Of course. It makes- makes me think of that acronym. I'm looking- I wrote it down that you have. It's four letters, but one of them is don't explain yourself. What is that one that you that acronym? What is it? You mention, I loved it. It was about, you know, not making excuses- four letters- 

Marine: Four letters, not making excuses. 

Mimi: Don't explain yourself and it is what it is, and it 

Marine: It is what it is, yeah. 

Mimi: You mention it, and I'll find it, but I loved it because I was like, oh, yeah, that's a really good tool because all of that words, around it, explaining it and- 

Marine: Oh! Is it the four useless W's?  

Mimi: Yeah. Yeah. 

Marine: Yeah. Who, where, when oh- 

Mimi: Oh, it’s this one. JADE. Justify, Argue, Defend, and Explain. [laughs] Yes, I know. I have a jade piece. I'm going to carry that. I love that. I mean what an easy thing to remember, right? And you know just saying, justifying, arguing, defending, and explaining, I can imagine that that's- even if you're willing and you want to be and you trust in this- in this method you're bringing that with you, right? My client would be bringing that with them. Yeah, I'm wondering also how this works in this network idea. You know, that we're all connected- it's interconnected and I could say, oh, no culturally, I'm not connected. I may be connected culturally and even, you know, by race, by class, by whatever- ableism, or whatever it is, but I'm not connected to this. And there's a dominant culture above me. That's, I'm not connected to, but then again, I am privileged. But then again, I mean, I could go to town on all of the, you know, criteria that I'm that I've been offered, given, and categorized as and that I can often intake as mine because of how I'm perceived and I'm speaking about, not just me, but you know, how we are. So, this network idea way of seeing that and this interconnection, even with a perpetrator is- It's a big thought and it's at the core of how you're working. So. Yeah, that how does how and I know you did it. You know, you- you walked it. So, and I can imagine that it doesn’t necessarily happen like this. [snaps] 

Marine: No. So yeah, like what Mimi, at the beginning of our conversation, was referring to- it's in my book. It's in chapter 6, you know, and trauma is, long story short, at the age of 13, I was sent to England, you know, to learn English actually because of course my parents, you know, thought it was great, you know, for my future career and life. And unfortunately, at that time, I was raped by a teenager boy. So, at first, you know, like I did a blackout, I completely, you know, like, or got to know about, you know, like the event. But then I went to a deep depression, like, you know, it was at the beginning, you know, like of my healing journey as well, and I've never told my parents what happened. They actually learned about it. You know, when I published- when I self-published my first book when I was 28 and we had a discussion, you know, with my mom and you know, she was like “why you didn't talk about it?” I was like because you know, the guilt, the shame, everything, you know, like I just wanted to forget, you know, like I just wanted to be a regular teenager, you know, like with regular problems, you know, like and that’s it.  

And so, of course, you know, I did a therapy, EMDR, and everything in tremendously helped me, but then really like the last, you know, piece of really healing from that event, from that occurrence was Suzi Tucker, my other teacher in family constellations in 2014. I was finally ready to face my perpetrator. When I say “facing”, is because in my constellation, someone was representing him, you know, like, for me to acknowledge my feelings, my anger, my rage, and I remember, you know, like all of these women literally carrying me, you know, like being here and they’re surrounding me, you know, like and that's when I truly felt the power of being all together, you know, like facing him while being supported like my mum or my parents, you know, would have done if I would have talked about it. So, my perpetrator is part of my extended family system because what he did had an impact on me and my life. I was not the same before and after. And that the same thing, you know, when there is war or you are a refugee or racism or, you know, like abused- anything, you know, like coming from another person, another race, another gender. It will impact you, no matter what. So, we are all responsible for own behavior, to respect each other, you know, like it's I am because we are. Based on the Zulu tribe, where Bert Hellinger, you know, like went in South Africa, that's actually when he kind of discovered the family constellation process, you know, because they had a way of talking in the tribe by actually doing a constellation, you know, like and everyone was welcome to speak their truth, you know, like and acknowledging what happened.  

So, you cannot understand what a Jewish person went through in Holocaust. You cannot understand what a Black man may experience, you know, like in the street. You cannot understand an homosexual man, you know, like part of a very religious family. Just trying to be with that man. You cannot understand a disabled person in a wheelchair. However, you can acknowledge and recognize that person as he or she is, I recognize your story. I recognize that what you went through, must have been terrible. And I'm not going to tell you I can feel it. That's not true. We are not part of the same story, we're not part of the same family, but I can definitely show an interest to learn more and not make the same mistake as maybe my former generation did.  

Cuz for example, when you say and I can say to my father, you know, on my father's side, we are from Germany and Prussia. My last name is German. And I remember, you know, when you said it, where are you from, your last name? When you say Germany, people look at you like you are the Nazi. And it's been 60, 70 years, yeah 70 years now, but it's still, you know, like imprinted. You know, it's like, oh, you're from Germany. Okay, what's your story? So, you know, like it's very important, you know, like even all of those cliche, you know, like we could go on and on. So, that's why I think how we can work all together. That network of like my ancestors, maybe that did mistakes, and I'm going to learn from them and I'm going to do differently. Because a new generation is a way of moving on and doing better. But in order to do better, we also need to talk about it because it happened; slavery happened, Holocaust happened, sexual abuse happened. And on and on. 

Mimi: So is this connected and I'm going to turn on the light in a minute. I just want to let you know, I'm not going to walk away but it's getting awfully dark here where I am. Is this connected to forgiveness? Because I- yeah, I remember that coming up in the literature and what you wrote and I'm thinking forgiveness, I’m thinking of victimization and I'm thinking of perpetrator. I'm thinking of what you just brought up. Is, is this about forgiveness?  

Marine: So, as you read my book, I guess you saw- I guess you saw my note about forgiveness. [both laugh] So and that’s interesting because last week again, I did a podcast, you know, like and I got the same question. Okay, in family constellations, and also me personally; I don't- I did not practice forgiveness with my perpetrator, for example. I did practice consenting to what was. So of course, we can say that Marine it is just a word. Yes. Forgiveness and consenting; maybe for you is just the same thing. For me, it's not. I cannot forgive to my perpetrator. Because what he did and pardon my French, was fucked up. He destroyed my teenager self. And not only for 30 minutes. No. For a lot of years after. I had to get back to my power. I had to get back to my sexuality, to my pleasure, to trust men, to trust myself and so on. So, whenever you know, someone was like you need to forgive, you need to forgive. Oh my God, I was rageful. I was like, no, I didn't do anything wrong. The society, you know, maybe wants me to think that I did something wrong, but I did not do anything wrong. When I finally discovered family constellations and I read in one of Bert Hellinger’s book: we don't practice forgiveness. We practice consenting. I was like “oh here, here is my exit. I'm going to heal.” That's what I thought. [Mimi: Right.] And when I did my constellation, Suzi Tucker never asked me to say, “I forgive you.” [Mimi, Right.]  Maybe one day I will say this words, Mimi. [Mimi: Right.] You know, I'm not saying it. I say, I consent to what happened. It's part of my story, but it will never define me ever again. And at that moment, I broke the cycle.  

But then it's very personal when I work with my clients, especially on sexual trauma, you know, like on perpetrator-victim, you know, like dynamic, I'm like if you want to practice forgiveness, if you want to use the Hoʻoponopono, I forgive you, I love you, do it. But I won't force the person who was molested for 10 years by her or his father to say, I forgive you because this father- maybe he was molested before, you know, I'm sure. But again, it's not an excuse. What he did was wrong, period. So, that's why for me it’s easier to practice, you know, consenting to what was, because the forgiveness as well can create a dynamic that I am-- I am the big one, you know, like I can take care of it. You know, like don't worry, you were the abuser at that time. I was a child but I'm gonna forgive you. Nah, nah. 

Mimi: Yeah, so now we're going back to these dynamics of hierarchy. And yeah balance, and then also this idea of I'm a victim and you’re a perpetrator kind of- there- it constructs- again, this small, big, God, these polarities. And it sounds as if you're, you're trying to deconstruct all of that stuff in this. [Marine: Yeah, yep.] I have a question about collectivism. I'm thinking about that now and what, what Hellinger observed and admired and didn't have in his own culture. A very Germanic and you know, stereotypical- we're just- I'm going with it and just for the audience to know that I have a very French mother who's from Bordeaux. And I am biracial and, and I'm just giving you my positionality in all of this. I identify as a Black woman. I have a Black father from Tennessee. I have a white mother who was abandoned in the war. So, I understand the split in family dynamics, my father left at 13, to try to find a school. So, I get all of this disjointed stuff and I understand from my Black culture and even parts of the European French, you know, the idea of the family. Yes, for certain, but I guess this interconnectedness, but this collectivism, this very Confucianist- I'm a little confused because in the literature and what you wrote you talk about my self system and I come first when it comes to, for instance, something as critical as healing and everything is critical. But as this you give an example of being sexualized, being brutalized, and not forgiving the perpetrator, but this is my own self system and I look at that and I think of colleagues who come from, you know, not Western European, white influenced cultures, and that seems like a paradox that seems like me, I come first, you know, but it's still the argument in the, in the method is about collectivism and that seems very individualistic. So, I was just trying to unwrap. I was trying to unravel what that, how that works in the method and maybe I missed something.  

Marine: No, Mimi. No, no. Again, it's I am because we are. It's like put the mask on your face first, you know, before taking care of someone else. When you heal yourself, then you have the possibility to lead by example, and maybe it will give permission to someone else in your family, or in your entourage. To also be like, you know what, maybe I'm also going to do it. When someone heals, it has an impact. It has an influence, you know, on others. With family constellation, it has an impact on seven generations. Three before you, you in the middle and three after you. Why is that? Because we are all connected. Not only, you know, like with all stories but also it has been discovered, you know, like scientifically speaking; and the term is epigenetic, that we can pass on traumas in ourselves, but when we are finally in a friendly, lovely environment, the miracle happens, you know, like ourselves going to become like, okay, the trauma that taken care of, you know, like we can just give birth to a new generation and have a better life, you know, whatever it is. So, let's have for example that you came from a very racist family, Southern family, you know, like and you witnessed, you know, like words, you know, like situation with your father, with your mother, you know, and then finally, you're an adult. And you know, you're in New York and you see the melting pot, you're like, wow, that's amazing. You know, like Indian, you know, like Afro-American, you know, like wow. And then you see that those people actually are nice. They're kind, they’re smiling, you know, like and then you start wondering. Okay, maybe that's for their belief system. But what about mine? Maybe I can change this. Maybe I'm just going to learn, you know, like, from these new people. And when you do that, you're going to change your belief system, you're going to change, you know, like your perception to all others. So, of course, how you are going to raise the next generation, how you are going to behave, you know, with other people are also going to impact, you know, your network. You're not doing to perpetrate, you know, like what your parents, you know, passed on to you. You're going to say no, stop. I break free from that. It does not belong to me. I'm going to see my parents, you know, from where they are. And maybe also through now my new belief system, you know, and my new values. Maybe they will change. Who knows. So that's why yes, it happened at first as an individual. Maybe you know what I learned from my family. Maybe that's not my truth. Maybe that's not who I want to be. Maybe I don't want to be an addict. Maybe I don't want to be a single mom. Maybe I want to believe in love. Maybe I'm in love with a woman. And that's okay. And then, you know like by changing yourself, you know, as an individual giving yourself permission, you will also have an impact on others so that’s where for me, the collective, you know, like happened. Because you're not afraid anymore. 

Mimi: Right, so that self system is part of the interconnected. But you have to do you first. Yeah. Yeah, I'm thinking when you mention, when you all, you know, I'm thinking of New York. I have a daughter in New York right now and she's not probably too far from where your- she's, but she's, you know, it's a culture shock because everything is there. It’s a vertical city, and I'm just thinking of how you mention in your book because it's recently published, you know, about the coronavirus pandemic, Black Lives Matters movement. A first truly global, you know, from Paris to Tennessee, you know, we're all from wherever all over the world, you know, Nigeria and wherever- it’s a global- we are globally affected and not as if we weren't globally affected before especially, under this ideology, or this philosophy, or this belief system, and also others. It's not a new thought. Of course, we're all connected, but you say this- what was inflection point, there's an inflection point, a cultural and historical crossroads of great urgency. And I really appreciate you saying that, mentioning it in what you write. So, how does that affect your practice right now? And how do you adjust as a facilitator with this time? 

Marine: People you know, like, of course, you know, like, a lot of anxiety, you know, like my clients being anxious, being afraid, actually of another person because now it's just like, do you have it? You know, like, can I get sick? Can I, you know, like just die, you know, like, if I see you, if I meet you, if I touch you, if I kiss you, and that's division for me. That's just being afraid, you know, like of your shadow. And of course, I understand the deep impact on an emotional level. And like you say, it was global. The world, you know, just shut down, you know, like for a year, you know, like not knowing what was going to happen. And as a human being, we are not great at the unknown, we want to know, you know, like and for one year every day was a new information and something new was coming and another variant, Delta, and it was just, you know, we were all getting- losing your mind. You know, I have to say, you know, like it was very anxious and again the unknown.  

So, I would say- so I stopped my workshops, of course, you know, like but in September of last year, I've decided to offer a workshop in person. It was in New Jersey outside, with of course, you know, like safety, you know. Like but I was like, you know, what family constellations is about connection, and I'm a firm believer, now more than ever, we need to feel connected. We- I don't want to feed the division. Like we have to be afraid of each other. Okay, because again, we are all in this together and it's together that will make the difference. And so, I've decided to do a workshop and I was like, you know what? If I got participants, amazing, if I don’t. And I actually got a waiting list. People wanted to come. 

Mimi: But have you also adjusted online or have you perhaps- 

Marine: Yes, yes, I work with online, remotely. But I was also missing you know? Seeing like my participants like and we all cried. Because we are finally reunited like, we were finally connecting again, you know, like and I don't want to lead with fears, you know, like and we all need each other to be here for us, you know, like and I think we will overcome that situation, the very difficult time because it's not done yet. You know, like it's just like- it's an unprecedented time but it's all together that we can make the difference and it's like Black Lives Matter. Yes, it's all together. It's not only because you are Black, no it’s because you are white, you know, because you believe you know, like in human rights, you know, like you want to learn, you will never understand what it is, you know, like but again, you can be like, you know what? Let me understand your story. Let me see, you know, what's going on for you. So then maybe I can help you in any way, just by changing, you know, my behavior, my perception, you know, like just acceptance and respect towards your person and recognizing you as you are. And I think you know, with this recognition and with COVID, that's what happened. It was like you are afraid you're anxious. Okay, I see you and you do not need to do more. Stay where you are. 

Mimi: No need to explain. No need to- 

Marine: No need to, exactly. Nothing like that. Now I work more remotely for sure, Mimi, that's for sure. I really enjoy it. I also enjoy having smaller group of people, you know, to do my workshop because we need, we need to be hugged, we need to do, you know, we are human beings, so I think it's just so important to go back to life. Life is still happening.  

Mimi: Well, it sounds like in the knowing place or a group that gathers. First of all, it takes, it takes a willingness and courage. Yeah, and a facilitator that welcomes and invites so that sounds like what happens with your groups, but also it's almost a microcosm of a larger, of the larger system, you know, just meeting up, there's the micro system of a macro, you know, it's an interesting- I'm just seeing it that way now, from listening to you and what the ideals are of doing this kind of work. I wanted to ask you one more question though. Are there any, from what you've heard, cuz you've been doing this for over a decade, I thank you for all your transparency and everything here in this, it's been really lovely; any misconceptions about, you know, this type of work? I know that you don't necessarily have to be licensed and people, some people are, some people have combined this kind of work with, with the work they've already done, or this is all they do. So have there been many misconceptions in one, the practice of it and the theory behind it that you've heard, that, you know, because you've definitely given us truths by, you know, what this is about. So, your book is really clear. So, yeah, I just ask that question. 

Marine: You know, I would say it's like that, that passion now to become a yoga teacher. Everyone wants to become a yoga teacher.  

Mimi: That's right. [laughs] 

Marine: But not everyone can be a yoga teacher. So, of course, you know, like you can be licensed as I was, you know, like back to Paris where I studied to be a psychologist. And I discovered family constellations and it was love at first sight. I trained with Mark Wolynn and Suzi Tucker. I really took it very seriously. I think you, you know for any therapies or healing, you also need to be cautious, you know, like because you are going to work with people, that’s real shit here. You are going to hear things, you know, that if you have not a proper, you know, like education and training. You can just run with all of your clients. So, I would say just ask yourself: why do I want to be a yoga teacher? Even you- or a Reiki master, a family constellations facilitator, you know, like is it because I want to save the world? Wrong answer! Or is it, you know, because I do, you know, like resonate, you know, like with that type of work. I want to learn more, but I need to take care of my own *BEEP* before. [Mimi: Yeah, right.] That's what we do, you know, like, as a psychologists, we need also to do our own therapy. And so just, you know, be aware of that because right now everyone wants to help everyone, you know, it's like okay. I'm going to be a helper. That's wonderful. But you can also just give back to your community. By just, you know, like I don't know. Bake pies, you know, like, let’s eat. You know, like or help a homeless, you know, like person. You know, so there is also that tendency right now like, oh, it's so cool to be spiritual and understanding everything, you know, that's not cool, buddy. Like believe me, you know, like you got to be prepared, you know, like so. So, yes, but you know, I trained with so many people. I don't even think half of us, you know, like became, you know, like a facilitator you know, like I think it's also very personally like it's a philosophy, you know, like or so of seeing life, you know, like of perceiving life through another lens. So, for me, it was love at first sight. It was just in evidence. Yeah, but again, you know, like I think it's also important. 

Mimi: Yeah, I appreciate that. 

Marine: Study and educate yourself. 

Mimi: Yeah. [Marine: On anything. Anything] Yeah, you don't want to harm. I appreciate that you followed the passion, that, you know, that's the best. That's the best research. That's the best facilitating. That's the best anything, right? You're not doing it because it's you're supposed to or whatever reason. I don't even know how that really gets done. I want to thank you so much for this time. It's been really a pleasure, just digging into what it is that you've lived and what you facilitate and perhaps what you're even teaching others. This is, this is that other level. So, I want to thank you for that and yeah, maybe now. We're going to- if there's any- are we- are we good? Anything else you want to add to this?  

Marine: No, thank you so much, Mimi. You know like it was such a pleasure, you know? Like to talk with you and thank you so much. Thank you.  

Mimi: My pleasure. Definitely my pleasure, very excited about doing this. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
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