CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

[Cheerful theme music begins] 
 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 
 

In this episode, author and activist Mia Birdsong is joined by CIIS Director of Diversity and Inclusion Rachel Bryant for a conversation on reclaiming family, friendship, and communities. Sharing insights from her book, How We Show Up, Mia highlights how we can return to our inherent connectedness to find strength, safety, and support in vulnerability and generosity, in asking for help, and in being accountable.  
 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on April 22nd, 2021. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

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Rachel: Well, hello everyone. I don't know about you, but I have been waiting to show up! To have this conversation with you, Mia Birdsong, about How We Show Up. And I have to say that when I first received this book, it was like mana from heaven. It felt like it was very timely and yet you wrote this book before the pandemic, and it is so needed in this time. So, could you start by telling us a little bit about why you wrote this book and who you wrote it for? 

Mia: So, I did that thing that Toni Morrison said to us, which is like, you know, write the book that you need, and this was very much a book that was born out of questions I was asking myself about how to, in a, in a context in a culture that emphasizes insularity, independence…that tells us that our value comes from productivity and that we are in competition with each other. I wanted to understand how to think about what it means to be in community. What it means to re-imagine friendship for myself, what it means to build family, all of those things. I want to understand how to do that in ways that didn't reinforce or replicate these systems of like independence and insularity and competition.  

Rachel: Yeah, I think like I said, this is a very timely conversation, as many of us are in isolation. One of the maybe silver linings or gifts of these times, these very uncertain times, is that we are all questioning what is most important to us? And I don't know about you but I'm coming up with it’s my folks, it's my relationships [Mia: Yeah!] that are mattering the most, right, whether it's through a phone call or some sort of a drive-by connection or whatever that is, we've essentialized that, right. But why is it so hard for us to admit that we need one another, right? 

Mia: Yeah, I know! Because on the one hand, right, like our need, the fact that we need each other is because we're human. Right? Human beings are social animals. It is in our, in the way, our brains are wired. It's in our DNA, it's in our biology. Like it is a real thing that we actually need each other. In fact, there are sociologists who think about relationship who would argue that the way that, you know, that Maslow's pyramid of needs, which has, you know, food, shelter, water on the bottom, that actually connection should be on the bottom because as humans, we actually can't get any of those things without each other. When you're, born, you can't do anything for yourself. You need people to care about you, in order to make sure that you get fed and, you know, are taken care of, even, you know, as adults. Like, you know, I'm in a house, I did not build this house. Somebody else built it. We're not, you know, alligators. We don't get born and then just go about our business and take care of ourselves. We really need each other and our need for, you know, it's not just about kind of establishing or getting the things we need to like literally, you know, materially survive, but it also is that we actually need love like love’s a thing that human beings need. We need care. We need to belong.  

So, everything, right, about what we are as humans tells us this, but culture is really powerful, and you know, America and this is true of lots of Western cultures, but I know America, so I talk about America and America has a very old history that tells us that in order for us to be valuable, we have to be productive. It tells us that the model, right, the model we should all be aiming for when it comes to success is a very insular nuclear family. It tells us that asking for or accepting help and support is weakness, right? That you only do those things if there's something wrong. So, we have if you know, grow up in this country or if you come here and you kind of adopt American culture, you are told that your need for other people is as a kind of weakness, and I mean, it is astonishing to me on some level, how powerful that culture is and how, how much we internalize all of that. But that's what I wanted to really kind of unpack for myself in the book and I'm really glad that other people are finding it useful to unpack those things as well.  

Rachel: Yeah. Mia, what you’re really unpacking is this American dream, this, this idea of an American dream that we've all been sold and you do that so beautifully through all of these stories that you've collected, it's like you went back to the future, you reclaim this ancient technology of simple storytelling and connecting [Mia: Totally.] people, and it's so beautiful each and we’ll maybe talk about some of the stories but, you know, there's this, this conversation happening in the academy right now and in the community too maybe, on some level, about decolonizing. Decolonizing this and decolonizing that. And I thought about your book and I'm like, it's not only in your talking about decolonizing our lifestyles, it's also showing how we decolonize research and I just wondered if you actually identify with those terms like decolonizing. 

Mia: I mean, I think I do, because I find them useful to kind of understand the practice of excavating, right, the ways in which I've internalized white supremacy, capitalism, patriarchy, and I think it's, it is useful to understand that you know, colonization is an act of like, putting something in a place that is not from, like not of it right and I feel like the idea of independence like has colonized humans, human beings so part of us excavating that from our hearts and our minds and our, and the way we interact with each other is a kind of decolonization. So, I think if that's useful for people, I think that's a great way to think about it. I also don't think it's the only way to think about it. I think it can also be about not so much what you're undoing but what you're reclaiming or remembering, and I know you asked me a question about research, but, but I do- I’m going to say this first. Because this is interdependence and connection is who we are as human beings, I feel like the, the process that we are engaging in is really a remembering, right? We all, because it is part of who we are genetically, it's also part of who we are historically, all of us and we may have to go real far back to find this, but all of us come from people who lived interdependent lives, and it may not be useful to go back and find out who those people were and, try to like, reclaim like a particular culture, you know? Like on my mom’s side, there's like we're part Irish, right? Like, I'm not gonna go back to Ireland and like, try to start, you know, kind of reclaiming Irish culture. Like, that's not something that's going to resonate with me, but I do think that knowing that we, that, that is true of all of us, right, all of us have come from people who lived interdependent lives. I think it’s just; I find it reassuring because it means that I'm like, oh, I don't really have to make something up. I just have to like, listen to what my, my history like what myself right like, what is what I'm like I'm longing for. And all of us want to belong we all want to be loved and cared for; we all want to be part of something where we feel like we can make home. And knowing that I feel like makes the journey forward into something that feels very different from what I grew up with or what we grew up with. Right? Like it makes it a little less scary.  

Now, you asked me about research. [laughs briefly] So I am so grateful that I learned a fairly...like a while ago, that if I wanted to find answers to, like, how to be in the world. That the people whose practices, cultural ways, were going to resonate and point me toward the future that I wanted. Were not, you know, dead white men. were not academics, were not, you know, pundits but were people who were living the- into the future that I want. And in my experience, those people are usually marginalized in some way. So, it's Black folks, it's queer folks, it's unhoused people, it's sex workers, people with disabilities. Because the system we have up of success, right? The way that you access resources, the way that you are told you're doing a good job, the way that you're supposed to achieve success and happiness, that system is for heterosexual, able-bodied, you know, resourced white men. That's who built it. That's who it works best for. Or, you know, ‘best’ meaning like they have- they, they can most easily navigate it. People for whom that system either, like creates barriers, or just outright rejects them do something else. And that something else like the rejection, and I don’t want to romanticize like how shitty it is to experience oppression and experience like not being able to access resources that you need but there's a way in which when we can't access those resources through the institutions and systems that our society holds up for us, we figure out how to do it in other ways and that so often involves us being in community with each other. It involves us relying on each other to get those things and I feel like I- so I was like, I knew where to look generally like in what direction to look for the answers I was looking for, you know, probably 80% of the people, the stories that I tell in the book are like queer Black women. There's unhoused people, there’s sex workers, there are people with disabilities. Yeah, that's where I feel like I find the most life-affirming, beautiful, like, vision of what it is…that like the future that we need. 
 

Rachel: I really resonate with that. I believe that in reading your book, I understand more deeply, that what I've seen on like stickers and people say, like the future is queer. Like I really could imagine it through all of the stories, and I also really appreciated that you give big props, big props to Black queer women for operating very much on the fringe of our society and having so much creativity, so much resilience so much like, just pop! You know, like, [Mia: Totally.] make culture like and, and I just- 

Mia: Really, let me also say, and like part of what I've found is like Black queer women are really doing the work, right? [Rachel: Yeah!] They’re like, this thing does not work for us so we need to do something else and like we and this is you know, this is the circles of- and again, I don't want to romanticize or generalize but, but I’m- the places where I'm finding people really doing the work of, of questioning the ways in which they have- they’re practicing, you know, whatever. They're like, am I replicating white supremacy here, am I replicating patriarchy, am I replicating that like, like punishment and like the carceral state in, in the ways that I'm being in relationship or doing my work or parenting or whatever it is. And that the rigorousness of the questioning is also a thing that I feel like I've learned from Black queer women, is that it's not just enough and, you know, like, I'm also because I'm an activist, I'm largely like, interacting with activists and organizers, but that is not just enough to be, you know, it's not just a like, we're rejecting the patriarchy and white supremacy and we're creating some utopia over here. It's like we're doing this practice with each other, and we have to do our work on our own shit. 

Rachel: Yes. And I wonder how you dropped into your work because there was a part, I don't remember the exact quote in the book where you say it like you give the props to Black queer women and you tell so many like diverse stories that help us imagine the future. But you also warn like, don't bust in here, occupying, and acculturating… 

Mia: Yes! Like totally, like there's a, there's a fine line. You like, like the book is not meant to be…it's not a how to, right? It's not meant to be a blueprint. It really is, one, to affirm the just, the possibility right, like to affirm that the things that I think many of us are looking for are already being practiced someplace. So, you really don't have to just like completely make it up. But it is also to be like, well, to notice that like, oh there's a way, there's a way in which I can build family, for myself that does not look like this thing that I grew up with or this thing that I was taught or the, or the fact that if I'm not doing it does not make me a failure but it's not about replicating any of the, the structures or practices or you know, family, friendship, or community structures that I show in the book because there really isn't a how-to book. Part of it is like, there are a million ways to do all of these things and I just wanted to give people a handful of examples like to serve as inspiration and validation, right, inspiration that like you can do something else and validations for what so many of us feel which is that this thing, right, that we've been told is going to make us happy is like misery-inducing.  

So, it's like okay something else exists. Let me figure this out for myself. And I think, you know, especially as someone who- like lineage is really important, so part of it for me, was about recognizing that my, you know, none of these ideas just like sprang fully formed from my head. I learned from a lot of people, and I really wanted to pay homage to and like recognize the places where I learned and so much of that was from Black folks and so much of that was from queer folks. So, it was really important to me that, that I just like make that clear and make clear that like you don't get to like you know, wrap your friendship in a rainbow flag and like be done like that part of this for me is solidarity work, right? It's like if you're, if you're learning from communities that are not yours, then you need to be protecting those communities because those things, right, that they are, that they're teaching us are sacred and we need to treat them that way. So, it means like okay, like yes, I can learn about like the queering of friendship but then like I need to show up for people who are, who are like asexual or aromantic, right? Like queerplatonic friend- platonic queer friendships are one of the things I talk about in the book and that thinking came from asexual and aromantic folks. And those folks like, like the visibility of asexual and aromantic folks is like non-existent and when it is, it is always some kind of like, you know, like they end up being like the serial killer in the show or whatever. So part of it for me is about how am I making sure that the groups of people who are giving me this gift that you know that they didn't create for me right like to be clear like folks are doing these things for themselves but in doing so, it allows me to expand how I think about myself and I feel like I have a responsibility then to those folks.  

Rachel: Mhm. Let's talk about friendship. I love when you talk about reading, just the value of friendship is really the highest value that we have in a relationship and yet you talk about how, somehow maybe the word ‘friend’ has lost its meaning and then you take the readers in a new place which is around queering friendship. So, I want to talk about friendship with you and like how that queering of friendship you talk about as being liberatory and truth-finding for you as you engaged in- Yeah. 

Mia: Yeah. I think, I think the main thing is that I've like, I've come to understand that, like, each of my friendships can have its own culture, right? That like friends are not one thing, you know, I think in our, in our culture, we have like, your sexual, romantic relationship is meant to be at the top of the hierarchy and like that, that is a very, very like pointed mountain, right? Like it’s way up here. And then everything else is below that. And you know, and you might have your best friends and then like, you know, people you hang with, or your work acquaintances or whatever, but, but that there's not like part of it is that we try to categorize everything and assume that like this label is going to going to define what the thing means. And I think part of what I learned over the course of researching and writing the book, is that each of my friendships can have its own culture and that there's something about at least thinking about it if not actually being explicit and having a conversation about it with the person you're in relationship with that can create a shared sense of like expectation that can open up so much room for realms of support that you didn't have for intimacy for, for deeper knowing with folks and just and that's just from like being like, okay, the friendship label like doesn't really mean anything. So, what is the culture of this relationship? And that the spectrum of friendship, right, can be vast.  

A queer platonic relationship is one that is you know, as I understand it is like, it's not a sexual, romantic relationship, but it's also not what our culture would not have normally defined as like just a friend. It is a, like they're people who have queer platonic life partners, right? So, there's, people, they’re not sleeping with them. Sometimes, they are sleeping with other people or have romantic relationships with other people, but they have this friendship that feels like a life partnership and I just think that that's beautiful and again part of it is not that you're going to learn about that and then be like, oh I need to go find one of these but just that it pulls away a limitation for what we think of like what friendship is and allows us to just like expand our understanding of what's possible when it comes to our friendships.  

Rachel: Yes, one of the examples of that in the book that really struck me and I'd love to hear which stories struck you, but it was your own story with your friend who had diabetes and you talk about like at a certain point, you had to make the decision that you needed to get all up in her business with her permission [Mia: Yes.] so you could expand this idea of friendship and really be someone who would be there as a support for her more than just like the good times but like in the critical times that she might need a friend like you. I'd love to hear you talk about that. 

Mia: Yeah, so that's a story about me and Mariah and I love this woman so much. She's family. She's auntie to my daughter and I don't remember what it was. That was, I think part of it, actually, honestly, was that she was becoming more comfortable with- she's a deeply independent person. She doesn't have a partner. She lives by herself. She has been managing her diabetes like since she was like 10 and the, so part of it was that she was becoming, she was doing the work of recognizing her interdependence with people and what it meant to allow people to see more of her. And I just had this realization that like in our culture because there is such a deep expectation that you're going to get married that if you have a medical condition, there, like your partner, you know, whoever you marry is the person who's going to like be the person who you talk to about that stuff or who manages it for you.  

And I have so many friends who do not have partners, right and probably never will, who are in their like 30s and 40s and 50s and I was like, oh what, what does that look like what happens if you have a thing that you really need people to be aware of, to understand, right, like to know how to help you manage if you need it. What happens to you if you don't have a spouse for that so, you know, I was, I spent a lot of time like, debating whether or not I was going to bring it up with her, partly because we'd never talked about it. Like, in terms of like any kind of support I could offer and she's and, like I said, she's a very independent person but I was like, imma bring it up and if she doesn't want me to be up in her business, she can tell me. And so, I was like, hey, like, is there stuff that that like, it would be useful for your, like, me to know so that, you know, if you end up in the hospital, like, what do the doctors need to know about your diabetes, right? Like stuff like that. Like, if I'm with you and you- something happens, like, as they're like, what do I get, like, do you need some juice? Do I give you a shot? Like how do I know what to do? And she was like, no one's ever asked me that before and I'm like, I know it's not because, you know, her friends are assholes, it’s just because we do not have a model of what it looks like to be in our friends’ lives that way and this was very much because I have been thinking about this. So, we had a whole conversation where she like, she made a spreadsheet with all of her doctors and her information about you know, her thing. I have, you know, she lives alone. So if her blood sugar gets too low, like I have an app on my phone and an alarm will go off and let me know that her blood sugar is too low so I can check in on her and make, you know if I don't hear from her then I can go to her house, and I know where the key is and I can go in and like give her a shot of insulin if I need to and now it's not just me like there's a little group of us who she will text if like, she's like, you know, my blood sugar's really low or if she's just feeling you know funky or she needs to- something needs to happen. She'll text a small group of us and we just like, we know what to do. And it means that you know, my phone is on all the time. I don't turn my phone off at night. And I feel like, we are like, I'm like we're in each other's lives in this way that we weren't before, and it's like this, this like, you know, we have these like, webs of connection with each other and it's like this other thread that got strung between us.  

I have another friend who has a lot of, like, a bunch of health stuff going on. And a few months ago, asked…they live alone. Pandemic times, like all the things right. They asked if I would- they’re like I'm trying to get my nutrition together because I need to have surgery in the next year. Would you cook for me? And I know that it was, it was so hard. There was all kinds of preamble before, like ‘it's okay if you say no’ like all the things; it was so hard for them to ask me to do that. So first of all, I was like, that is some courageous shit right there. Like asking somebody to cook for you. And I was like, yes because I love cooking and it has turned into this thing. My husband and I both cook we, it feels like this friend of mine is like part of our family when I'm making a meal, right? When I'm making a meal for, for my husband and my kids and I'm making a meal for them at the same time, it's like there's a part of my table that like extends, you know, outside my house and I always, I always drive over and I drop it off on the porch and I send them a text that says, like what it is and they always like, you know, eventually once they eat it, they like send me a text back. Sometimes, I have them pick out recipes and I'll cook whatever that is for them.  

So, like in both of these instances, there's this way in which, there's so much courage required from both sides, right, to be up in each other's business. And we, like that has redefined my relationships with both of those people. And, you know, and I'm telling you stories of that like are about my kind of, you know, my giving-going in this direction. But let me tell you, I have had my crises during the pandemic and like it has come back to me. From them, from other people and that, you know, there's a, there's a quote in the book from this woman, Red Amorous, who talks about the divine circle of giving and receiving and how we often think about like, you know, the gift it is for somebody to receive but we don't often think about the gift it is for someone to give and that when we don't ask for help, right? We don't accept help. We're interrupting that circle and I think about how like, like me, you know, driving over to Mariah's house when her blood sugar is low, which I have done like in the middle of the night, in my pajamas right, me doing that, me cooking for this friend of mine, is so restorative for me. Being in like that kind of intimate connection with these people who I love brings me like [sighs] it’s just life-affirming, right? It brings me a sense of like grounding. And again, it's like it strengthens that thread right that's between us and like I'm just so grateful that they allowed me to like, give to them in that way. 

Rachel: Mhm. You know, the other thing I was wondering, is you actually mention a lot of people, communities, and organizations by name and how as a researcher and an author you get their permission to do that because I thought that was very profound, like you named the people. 

Mia: So, I asked everyone. So, I changed a lot of names in the book. Yeah. So, I asked yeah, totally, there's a part of the- way in the beginning, in the part that nobody reads in the book. Like I said, I say something about changing people's names. So, I asked everybody what they wanted me to do, if they wanted me to use their real name or not. People, there’re people who decide- who said, no and I gave- I let them pick their pseudonym if they wanted to. There are folks who said yes and then I double checked with them to make sure and then there was, I think there was a couple of people who said, yes, and I was like, they, I was like, I don't think they understand how public this is going to be. I think I'm going to change it anyway, and I feel good about that. So yeah, so I really, I checked in with folks. I had a really, you know, I had a form that people filled out to give me their, you know, their pronouns, like all their- I- kind of like the way that they identify themselves, like in terms of race and gender and all those things. You know, I just wanted to like correctly identify folks and then I said I was like if you know- I was like if you do not answer this question about whether or not I can use your name, I'm not gonna use your name. I'm gonna assume- I'm assuming that I will not say who you are unless you positively affirm that I should.  

And then the organizations like, you know, there I talked about Homefulness in there, for example. I talked about People's Kitchen Collective, which is like, if y'all don't know People's Kitchen Collective it is one of the dopest organizations on the planet, you should know about it. You should give them your money, same with Homefulness, that community of folks has been around for like two decades in some iteration has been doing the work. It is a group of unhoused and formerly unhoused people who they have built housing for themselves. They have a radio station, they have a cafe, they have multiple publications, they have books, they have a school. Like they, like they really, in many ways like what they have figured out for themselves deeply models, like the world that I want to live in. It’s amazing. You should give them money too. All y'all in the audience should give Homefulness and you should read the book and give all the organizations in the book your money. 

Rachel: They are pretty amazing and they're in Oakland, [Mia: Yes.] which is also great. You know, you interview all of these folks and what you're what all of those people working in those organizations are doing is flipping the stereotype about what we believe about poor people. And I know that some of your work has also been around economics, and I wonder if you could speak to why that's so important and may be synthesize through the stories that you're telling in the book like where our wealth really lies, which is what I think is the essence of the idea of family, friendship, and community.  

Mia: Yeah. So, let's be clear people need money. [Rachel: Yeah, they do!] Because we live inside of capitalism and are material. And we are like, we are people inside of a body and these bodies need things in order to live, so inside of this context, we need money. So, I just want to be clear about that first. Part of our wealth lies in having money. But I'm clear from so many of the like, you know, boardrooms and elite spaces that I have been in that folks who have lots of wealth, of monetary wealth are some of the loneliest, saddest, self-hating people I have ever encountered and part of what that looks like is the extraction, the, I mean, you know when it comes to billionaires like the straight-up thievery, the hoarding, right, that we see is because folks don't- have not figured out like the thing that they're trying to fill like that hole in themselves with stuff and wealth like they're trying- they're like the American dream says that this is what's gonna make me happy. So, they keep accumulating and haven't figured out that like what they need is like neighbors and friends who they can like, you know, be messy and cry in front of or get a hug from. And folks go on these, like excursions to like Bali or Tibet or whatever, trying to find meaning. And I'm like, the meaning you're looking for is like your neighbor, is like is live- in your actual life. It’s not about going someplace else.  

And again, like I don't want to be like all poor people like, are like wealthy in terms of relationship and like, because that's not true. But I know that the folks who I've encountered who have found whoever, who have been forced to replace who don't have financial capital. So, they have- they create social capital right, and are able to mitigate their experience of being poor through the relationships they have. So that they're, you know, being poor in community is very, very different from being poor in isolation. And when you have community and me, you know, like there's, there's folks in the book who talked about like, you know being raised by like me by look, like, you know, working class single moms and their moms and like all they're all they're all their aunties who are just mom’s friends like pooling, you know, food in order to like feed the kids, like having these potlucks, right? So that like everybody gets fed or passing around, you know, $20. Right. Like this person needs $20 to, like, pay the light bill, this person needs $20 to buy some underwear for their kid. This person needs $20 to get, you know, a book for something and just like the way in which the community, right, the relationship gets built around sharing and pooling resources. And Homefulness is really like a radical example of what that looks like. The practices that they've built over time and the ways in which folks there are able to pool resources really allows for a lot of like building and creating and stuff. And they also work with people who have a lot of wealth and to get those folks to redistribute their money. So that's part of the work that they do too. I don't remember what your original question was at this point. [laughing] I’m just kind of rambling.  

Rachel: You know that what you're saying resonates with me so deeply where you have lived in Oakland for more than 20 years, I grew up in Oakland. And in fact, deep East Oakland and that’s code for poor people, Black people, brown people, and queer people are basically who were in my neighborhoods and yet despite like again, I really hear you, let's not romanticize poverty, people need real things, I heard that in what you said loud and clear but there is this part where I didn't know I was poor because my wealth was my relationships and not only my wealth, my safety. [Mia: Yes.] So, the other thing that gets projected onto like the hood, it is a dangerous place. It really is, like in a lot of ways when I was growing up, it was at the height of the crack cocaine, there were, there were a lot of things that made it very unsafe to grow up there. But at the same time, when I walk through those streets, I knew that I can knock on doors and people had my back. [Mia: Exactly.] If I needed a meal, there were other houses that I could go to and get a sandwich or if I just needed, like you said, like this connection. And so now, it feels like people are having a lot of conversations about what is safe. Like, unsafe, not being safe emotionally, not being safe, physically. And I wonder if you could talk about some of the ways you explore safety in the book. 

Mia: Yeah. So, in 1998 I went to the first Critical Resistance conference in Berkeley, California and I heard Angela Davis and Ruth Wilson Gilmore, and all of these amazing people talking about a world without prisons and policing. And I had no idea what I was getting into, like, a friend of mine, who is an immigration attorney now, like, said I should go. I think, I had seen the documentary Angola and was just kind of like blown away by it and she was like, ‘you should come to this conference’. So, I went, and I was introduced to abolition in 1998 and I have not looked back, and it was really my kind of like introduction to activism, which is kind of jumping in the deep end of the pool like, you know, in 1998, people were not talking about abolition in the same way that they are now. So, I remember in a, so, I joined critical resistance as an organizer and a volunteer, and I remember conversations that, like, questions that we were, like, would talk about together, but like, what safety is and like, really like interrogating, our idea of what safety is because it wasn't just about, like theoretically, what do we mean when we talk about abolition? But like, how do we as human beings, who are in this work, in this movement, reconceive of safety for ourselves.  

And so, part of what I began to just like, unpack for myself, was about like, oh, like the things that make me feel safe are not having to worry about whether or not I could pay my rent. Knowing that I'm going to have access to food that makes my body feel good. Knowing that the people I know who have medical conditions are going to have access to healthcare, right? Like I was and you know, free from violence, that seems like that's like the low bar. I'm like, obviously like I don't want to be subject to bodily harm. I don't want to be in relationships that are abusive. I want to know that if I am in an abusive relationship that there are people who will help me get out, right? That will help me move on in some way, right? And know that, and also understand that you know relationships are complicated. There are no good guys and bad guys. The people who we are, like the people who we experience harm and abuse from are usually people who we know, right? Are usually people we’re in relationship with. So, for so many folks, like calling the cops is not an option. It's not, it's not financially an option, it is not, you know, if like if my abusive partner is also like a fantastic father, right? I don't want him locked up. Right? So, people have these very complicated- not complicated. They have complex relationships with each other. And what I was in- like invited into was to really interrogate like what is safety right? It's not like, oh this person who's doing this bad thing is therefore a bad person and we should just lock them up forever. It was about how do we reduce whatever harm is happening. And for the person who's experiencing it and then reduce the likelihood that whoever that, whoever was perpetrated in the harm is going to keep doing it.  

And there was just such a tremendous logic in that for me. I was like, oh, of course, of course, like what we want to do. We can't just lock everybody up and keep them there forever. Like that's dumb. Like what we want to do is protect people who are experiencing harm, right? Take care of them, help them heal, reduce their exposure to whatever the harm is. And then we want to make sure it doesn't happen again. So, the person who's perpetrating the harm actually needs to be healed as well. So just like, like recognizing the like, human messiness of that and just recognizing that that's just deeply real. And again, just as we all come from like, if we go back far enough, we come from people who lived interdependently, we also come from places where there are no prisons and police. That has existed before. And I was like, okay, so we can do that again. And so much of it for me is, is expanding, again, like how I think about what it means to not just like believe these things theoretically but be in relationship with the people in my life around them. And think about what accountability means, think about, you know talk to people about what safety means for them, you know, and some of it is like deeply practical. The fact is, if you know, if somebody, I'm right now, I'm in my bedroom, which is in the back of my house. If I was here by myself and somebody was breaking into my house in the front, right? I'll be dead by the time the cops get here, but I know all of my neighbors, I have all of their phone numbers. If I needed somebody, I could text all of them and be like, y'all go outside and just start yelling: “Hey, we see you! Go away!” Whatever, you know, like those people will actually be there because I have physical proximity to them. The cops will show up and like investigate my murder, and that doesn't do me no good. 

Rachel: Yeah. It’s true. Thank you for telling me this. 

Mia: Let me say this too. One of the things that I have learned in all of the research that I did for this was to notice when I was uncomfortable with something somebody was sharing with me. And to, instead of shutting down, arguing, which is one of my defense mechanisms, was to be curious and to either be like, say more about that, right? Like, ask for more information, ask for a deeper understanding, right, or ask for deeper and more information so that I can have deeper understanding or and/or ask myself. Right? Like what am I uncomfortable with? Like what is this, what am I being activated around for this thing, is it that I fundamentally disagree with what this person is saying or like judging them for some experience they had. Or is it like my own stuff? What I feel like it's saying about me or whatever.  

So, I feel like that in our relationships with each other is so critical because it's so easy for us to react. And then be pissed at somebody or react and like cut them off. My therapist, who I interviewed for the book, and who I talk about in the book; she said to me once she was, like, ‘resentment is information for you’ and I was like, ‘bitch, shut up! Like what?’ [laughing] Like I thought resentment was like, when I get to be self-righteous, because somebody else is, has like messed up and isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing and she's like, no, resentment is information for you and it lets you know, it's like an alarm that goes off in your system that lets you know that a boundary has been crossed. And usually because I have not articulated that boundary, I've not set the boundary and I feel resentment because I've let that boundary, like I didn't, I was not clear about it or I've let it be crossed and I feel like in my relationships, it is totally changed. It has changed like how I interact with my husband. It has changed how I parent. It has changed some of my friendships because I'm like, oh yeah, I often, I resent this person often, that's because I have crappy boundaries with them. I need to articulate what those boundaries are. And the other thing, Shauna, my therapist said, is that when you tell people like telling people what your boundaries are, you're giving them information about you, you're letting them know you and that there's an intimacy in that and I think often we think of boundaries is a way of pushing people away, and I think it's really a way of revealing who you are in a way that builds intimacy.  

Rachel: I mean, that is one of the tenants of friendship that you give examples of in the book from people who have learned to negotiate those boundaries in some, probably ways that we wouldn't think is that where, that's where you would learn it. You talk about, a person who is practicing BDSM, and that is where and then she taught you. The language- 

Mia: Learning about consent. Totally. Like so many, yes, so such like good stuff. I mean this is the thing, right? Like I think about the people I know who are sex workers and how clear they have to be about boundaries to do the work that they do. Same with people who do BDSM, polyamorous folks have got like monogamous folks like totally beat when it comes to communication about boundaries, about needs and wants, about all like dealing with, with like ways in which we get activated, we get jealous, or angry or whatever with our partners like there, this is what I'm saying, like, communities of folks, who are not practice- who are not in a mainstream, you know, kind of idealized relationship, end up having to figure out how to navigate the relationships they are in, in ways that are healthy for people and like the rest of us can learn from that. Yeah, like that, that's just like, that's so good.  

Rachel: It was so juicy and good to hear, [Mia: Totally.] So, I want to shift gears a little bit. We've talked about lineages and reclaiming like, you know, our practices of storytelling and our practices of like a time before there was a police. And through our relationships that we can negotiate our communities and families together, and then being present with knowing our boundaries, redefining safety. Choosing families and that setups like unconventional setups that just work better for us than the American-[Mia: Totally.] And I want to shift to talking about the future. So, we're saying hoping, we went past present. We were living- Black people live in three, three-dimensional times [Mia: Yes.]. Anyway, right and so [Mia: Absolutely. Right. Yes.]  

And our children often represent our future, so I wanted to talk about children. I did read the beginning part of the book where you dedicated the book to your children, Stella and Solomon. And throughout the book, you share so many stories of ways like siblings who decide to co-parent together, like ways that people are raising and negotiating, what was it called, the mama- the mama house is like the way that we're coming together like all these creative ways, especially out of Black queer communities that people are negotiating how to raise children and I wonder if you could talk about the most important lessons for all of us around child-rearing that we can learn from the people in the book, whose stories that you tell. There was some really beautiful ones. And I won- there was a couple who talks about raising their kids with queer thinking that was so profound to me and that, yeah, creating these very intentional families that if something happened to them as parents, they had like a bunch of aunties. [Mia: Totally.] Who can step in at a moment's notice. 

Mia: I mean, I think that like, one of the- and I'll say, like, I don't like, you know, my kids are 10 and 15. So I feel like I started to figure out a lot of this after they were older, but I feel like one of the biggest gifts that we can give kids is multiple places where they feel home. So that it's not just about you know, living with their parents in like one house and then like that's where their family is, but that they can- and I feel like Black folks do this all the time. Right? Like you may live with your parents during a part of your life, but maybe you spend the summers with your grandparents or your auntie lives in a better school district, so you're with your auntie during the week and then you go to back to your parents, you know on the weekends or whatever. Like we have all of these configurations that I think from like a kind of white supremacist lens, like that looks like instability. But what it really is that this child, like a family is like again pooling resources to support children and that this, this, you know, these children can find home in multiple places, and I just think about like what a gift that is.  

I think that, you know, like the idea that two people can raise a kid by themselves is ridiculous. And nobody has taught me that more than single mothers because my mom did not raise me by herself. So many of the unpartnered women who I, who I interviewed for the book like they have their villages who are not only- villages who are not only helping them raise their children, but who they are part of right? It's not just about like the village raising the kids. It's about like they are in community with each other, everybody is. So, I think that like, having multiple caring adults in the life of your children, like my kids totally have chosen family. Sometimes it's the same people. Sometimes it's different people. I'm like, I know that, you know part of what I think about as a former sex educator, I'm like I wanted my kids to have people to go to talk about sex when they didn't want talk to me. I just, I was like, let me assume that even if I think I'm like cool mama, right, that these babies are not going to want to talk to me about sex all the time. So, if I'm like, but I want them to have people who I trust, who they feel close to, who they can have those conversations with. So, I feel like multiple places, they can call home, many caring adults, right?  

And then I think the other thing is right, like part of what that does is it gives them models for who they can be in the world, for what it means to build relationship with people. Like being part of community, right, is how you learn to be part of community. I feel like there are ways in which so many of us are like as adults having to figure that out. But there are so many kids that I know who have just like come up in these amazing communities. And I'm like, okay I'm gonna learn from this child over here because they know how to do this. Like they know how to show up in community so that just feels really important. So just like not as parents in particular to feel like we're supposed to do all of it ourselves. To really make sure we're like bringing people together for our babies.  

Rachel: Did you get a chance to talk to any children in your research who were growing up that way, or was it mostly observation? 

Mia: It was, I mean, I did not interview any children, but I was in conversation with people who and their kids sometimes and I have a community of folks where there are a lot of kids. So, part of it for me was also just being like, looking at, you know, knowing their children like knowing the children of the people who I was interviewing like a lot of people in the book are my friends, so I know their kids so no, I didn't actually interview any kids for it, but I definitely observed their kids and know their kids. 

Rachel: One of the things you do is give really good examples and inspiration for how we need to get in each other's parenting business too like for folks who don't have kids or have grown kids or just have the bandwidth to be one of those aunties [Mia: Yes.] or you know godparents or whatever to single parents- 

Mia: God bless the aunties who don't have no children. [Rachel: Yes.] It is- I'm so grateful for, yes, there's a kind of bandwidth that people who do not have kids will have for my children and you know something that I didn't realize is and you know, and, and in retrospect I was like obviously. But you know, so Mariah, who I talked about earlier are like she’s Stella’s auntie, my daughter's auntie and it took me a while to understand that when she would you know have Stella over for a sleepover or whatever like it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh I'm doing me a favor. I'm like, oh she actually loves spending time with my kid because my kid is awesome. So, it was like, I was like, oh, like I think of you know I think of childcare, right, as like a task or a burden or whatever that I also sometimes will ask somebody to do. But for people who are in my children's lives like they're delighted to be able to hang out with my awesome kids because they're super fun and they have a relationship. So, I just felt like, like that reframe for me as a parent, was really important to understand, so it made me feel less kind of self-conscious about asking people to step in and like take my kids for a little while. And let me tell you, I cannot wait until this pandemic is over because I am bored of all these people that I live with. And I want my babies to go be with some other people. 

Rachel: With their folks. That's right. [Mia: Yes.] But I still think there's ways that even in the pandemic that we don't give up our responsibilities. Maybe we double down on them in terms of our friendships and being aunties. 

Mia: Totally. I know so many people who have like, you know, have regular scheduled like Zoom time with their, like friends’ kids. My son goes to an outdoor school. So, he's actually been able to spend most of the school year like in his community. And my daughter got to hug Mariah who is now fully vaccinated, got to hug her. Like, over the weekend and it was amazing. It’s the first time, my daughter's hugged anybody who's not her parents or her brother in more than a year. And, you know, I'm excited. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna get these children out of this house. And with, once all these people are vaccinated, you know, it's been really, I think it's been, for all of us, it’s been really challenging to figure out how to be present for people. And there are lots of ways that we have like been creative about doing it. And there's just like there isn't anything to replace being in each other's presence. Like spending time together, like being able to hug people and you know snuggle them and all that stuff. Like it has made me- I think it's made all of us realize how deeply necessary that kind of contact is.  

Rachel: Well, you brought us back to where we began this conversation, about our human need for love. And I wonder if for the last word, if you could offer some inspiration to folks that are really feeling isolated, maybe they're feeling hopeless or feeling like you know, really don't feel that they have friendship community and so if we could give them our final, your final word and blessing, that would be amazing. 

Mia: Yes. You know, one of the things that again, my brilliant therapist, let me know during a period of time during the pandemic where I was feeling like just deeply overwhelmed. She was like, she did, she gave me this practice. She said, go lay down on the ground, like the Earth, not like the concrete, go lay down on the ground and put your left ear to the ground. And she was just like let everything that you're holding, all your fear, worry, anxiety, loneliness, pour out of you into the Earth. She was like the Earth can hold all of that and not like it ain't no thing for her. She just composts it. She's like give it, give it all to her. Just go ahead, pour it all out and, and in retrospect. I can't remember if it was left ear, right ear. So do whatever feels right to you. And she's like, once you feel like it's all like the wave of stuff has just like come out of you, turn your other ear to the ground and listen for the message that she has for you.  

And what happens when you do this. First of all, when you lay down on the Earth, you realize how the Earth is holding you all the time, right? Like right now, all of you who are listening, like just feel gravity, right? Like underneath your, if you're sitting like underneath your thighs, under the underside, of your chin, like the bottoms of your feet, like, the Earth is holding all of us. The reason we don't go spinning off into space is cuz she's holding us. We are always being held by her. She ain't never gonna let you go. And there's something that reminds me of which is that we're never alone. We might be lonely for people and that's real. We might be lonely for being touched by other human beings and that is real, but we are, you know, today is Earth Day. [Rachel: Yes it is.]  

And I don't know about y'all but I kind of grew up with an idea of what it meant to care for the Earth. That was very much about like, we're going to like, this kind of paternalistic like we're going to take care of this thing and the polar bears and the- you know, whatever creatures on it- as something that's separate from us, right? We are like, we have the, we can be conquerors, or we can like, you know, take care of the Earth and all the creatures. But we've grown up with this idea that like we're separate from nature and largely that's come from like a kind of colonizing, conquering place. And what I've remembered, because I felt this as a child, is we are nature. We're not separate from nature, right? Like we are nature. and that means that, the sky, right? Like is of us, like the air we breathe, is like is all over the place. The Earth is holding us. The trees are our elders. So, for me, when I feel like I'm feeling disconnected, largely from myself, or from people, I remind myself that I am nature, everything that's out there is inside of me and I try to find places for me to reconnect. It might be this houseplant over here, might be, as far as I can get, or it might be going outside and laying on the ground. It is not- it does not make up for the loss of human contact that we've had, but I think it helps some.  

Rachel: Thank you, Mia Birdsong. What a beautiful and auspicious way to end on this Earth Day of 2021 and thank you everyone for joining us for this conversation. 

Mia: And thank you for being such a thoughtful, present holder of this conversation. 

Rachel: Thank you. Be well, everyone. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  

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