CIIS Public Programs Podcast

transcript

[Cheerful theme music begins] 
 
This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Social justice activist, social worker, and yoga teacher Michelle Cassandra Johnson offers the tools people need to be present and open hearted with their grief. In this episode, program innovation leader in mindfulness, trauma, and racial healing Jenée Johnson talks with Michelle about her latest book, Finding Refuge, as well as her life and work helping people to process family, community, and global grief.  

This episode was recorded during a live online event on August 4th, 2021. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

[Theme music concludes] 

Jenée: Good evening, good evening. Jenée Johnson here and Michelle Cassandra Johnson. So fortuitous that we have the same last name. [laughs]  

Michelle: I know. I know- feel the same way. Mhm. 

Jenée: Michelle, I spent the last several days having a very heartful reading of your book, Finding Refuge: Heart Work for Healing Collective Grief. And I want to start our conversation with asking you: why grief and why now?  

Michelle: The idea that we would need a space to grieve collectively came to me two and a half years ago, maybe a little longer. And of course, I did not know we would be in the middle of a pandemic and deepening our awareness about multiple pandemics that have been present for a very long time. But my ancestors seeded this project, right, this work and called me into stewarding us and shepherding us through grief. And I feel like so much of my work, which has been focused on antiracism work and dismantling systems of oppression in many different spaces, is really about acknowledging where we’ve been, where we come from, what we have done to each other, the trauma we embody and how we replicate that trauma and pass it on to others; and so it was a natural fit, although I didn't know it at the time, but a natural fit to talk about grief and really, collective grief because I’m aware we are all losing something. We have lost so much, and we will lose more unless we change our ways of being. So, it feels really resonant and imperative that we focus on grief and make space for it and move through it and move through it together. 

Jenée: You know, I work with black women. I just recently was a keynote at a conference. I spoke about grief. I asked about grief. And the founder said, "Girl, I don't have time to grieve.” And she also intimated that if she gave grief space, it would swallow her up. And so how did you come to have the courage to face grief? And were you ever afraid to grieve? 

Michelle: Yes. I’m really happy you're bringing this into this space because it's important. We have internalized many messages about grief, about whether or not to make space for grief, who actually can grieve, whose grief will get attention, who is allowed to process their grief, who has access to resources that will respond to the grief, who has to just endure and push through. So, we have all sorts of conditioning that I feel like creates a lot of confusion about grief. And it is quite a common experience for people to feel like it's going to swallow them. And I think this is in part because many of us are having to remember how to grieve and to pause and be still and to listen and to recognize that our grief is connected to others’ grief.  

I feel like it is brave and courageous to bring this forth in this way. And the experiences I've moved through of grief and loss chose me, right? And chose me in this way that allowed me to create and write a book all about collective grief and these different themes connected with grief. So, there are practices. There's a chapter about our role, a right role at this time. There's a chapter about our intuition, a chapter about coming back into wholeness, a chapter about presence. All of these things are connected to our grieving process and attending to the heart, really. And tending, caring for the heart.  

So, the moment that I feel like I was chosen to do this was prior to receiving the specific information that I needed to create a space and then write a book was when George Zimmerman was acquitted for murdering Trayvon Martin, and I was cracked open in a way I had not been. And I was also processing a lot of ancestral grief. I mean, that was what was moving through me. And I think my ancestors knew that I could come back into wholeness. But I didn't feel that at the time. I was afraid grief was going to swallow me. It was going to take me out, and the world. And what was happening was going to do that. And that's not what happened. I'm here and have connected with community and deep in this conversation and my ancestors and nature to hold me through this. And these are some of the practices I feel like we need to engage at this time. 

Jenée: Tell me more about the experiences of grief that you've had and how you move through them. You have wonderful stories in this book. So many great stories. Your dad moving through, taking your mom through her illness, the death of your grandmother, your friend Eric. Girl, I was on this ride with you. Okay. I just want to say it's beautifully written. As I said in the opening, it was a heart full reading, and I am going to come back to the whole notion of the heart. But I'd love for you to tell us one of your stories. 

Michelle: Well, yes, there are so many stories. The story I want to tell is about chapter six. There's a chapter about the bees, and I am a beekeeper. I have three beehives. I don't own them. They're on my land with me, and we're in deep relationship with one another. And bees are such a- honeybees are such a metaphor for- and a teacher, really, for what we need to do for each other, with each other. And the story of the bees, the essence of it is the bees came to me when my mother was sick. They came to me on purpose. I had never taken a beekeeping class before, and I woke up and ordered bees and all of the things. And a friend said, they work in the material realm and the spiritual realm, and they're here to help your mother transition. She did not transition, but she was close. Everyone thought that's what was happening, and so did she.  

And so, they taught me throughout that time so much about grief, about sweetness, about resources and sustenance, about nature and our relationship with nature, and about what it means to care for the hive. And in the story in chapter six, I lost a hive, which was common during wintertime. But it was the first time it had happened to me, and they left us so much honey. So, we had to harvest sweetness in the middle of responding to death and loss. And isn't that what we're trying to do now, right? So intensely now, but all of the time and it was such a- it was just a deep experience to be with both. They left us this gift of sweetness and medicine. And I have to honor what it is to see a hive that is no longer thriving and alive. And the bees are such good teachers because they're- for social justice, because everything they do is for the hive. They don't think of themselves as individuals. They think of themselves as an extension of the hive, and everything is for the entire hive, the wholeness of the hive. And I feel like there's so much that we can learn from them.  

And the other part of this story, which is not in the book because I was reminded of it later, is that there is an old practice in many cultures and traditions where people are supposed to go tell the bees when they've lost someone or lost something, so the bees can mourn with them. And it's happened all over the world. It's an old practice. And I have an article about it. It's really interesting to think about communing with nature in that way and being with the bees and allowing them to mourn with us, to move with us, to help us move through. And I think that's what finding refuge is about in so many ways. How do we find refuge amid the chaos in the world, the suffering that we feel, the collective suffering, the cultural trauma? That's some about the bees and that they all have a role in supporting the hive.  

And there's some questions in that chapter about, you know, what would it be like for us to think about ourselves as part of a hive? And I think we're being asked that question. I mean, the question is kind of being screamed at us right now over and over, like, are we going to take care of each other? Is what we're being asked right now. And how are we going to do it? And are we willing to do it? And are we willing to remember how interconnected we are? 

Jenée: That is so beautiful. I love the whole notion of in the face of death, in the face of loss, yet harvesting sweetness. I know when I in my own work, when I turn to my ancestors, I keep a picture of my grandfather on my refrigerator and one day and frustrated, I'm like, “What do you want me to do with this?” And my family's from the Caribbean, and I heard deep in my soul, “take what I have left you and make something of yourself.” That's not his voice, not what he would say. So, it was not pick up my sorrow, take the sweetness, take the goodness of what I have left you and go make something of yourself. So, I will definitely take that with me. I love that you also call on the ancestors so much. That is throughout your book. And I wasn't going to ask you this till later on. But we're going to talk about this now. [Michelle laughs] The ancestors! So, there's two parts to this. The ancestors and our connection to them is a very African principle. What has happened to us in that? Where is the fracture? How have we lost that? 

Michelle: Mhm. This is such a big question, right? I'm wondering, how have we lost this? And so much of it, in my opinion, has to do with colonization and how we were brought here and the pattern of splitting people apart and families apart. So, language and culture and traditions were lost and not passed on. And I also think in my own family, the pain of living through- my great-great grandparents were enslaved, and my great grandmother remembers slavery as a child, although she wasn't enslaved. But I feel like she was living through that and with that, because her parents, her mother was she didn't know her father because her family had been split apart.  

But I feel like, you know, this experience, I was trying to remember where I was going with the enslaved. The ancestors are probably working through me. I think the pain- this is where I was going, the pain of that. My family didn't want to pass that down. So, my great grandmother didn't want to talk to my grandfather about it. My grandmother, maternal grandmother didn't want to talk about how hard times were. My mother, although we have opened a conversation, she says it's too painful. And so, I feel like not having that conversation about the suffering and pain also disconnects us from the rituals that might help us heal. So, there's the loss from colonization. But the loss because we- it's a challenge to turn towards the amount of suffering we've experienced as Black people and how we were brought here. And I think capitalism, we're not encouraged to practice, to be engaged in ritual, to be connected with ancestors, to deepen our relationship with them, and to see ourselves as living ancestors. This is the other thing. We are living ancestors. We're preparing in time to transition. And how do we want to be in this lifetime? And what do we want to leave? 

Jenée: Yes. So, it's the sense of connection from the past to the present. And where are we on the timeline and how will we pass the baton onto the future. But as you were talking, I was thinking about what a gift these rituals and practices are in your book, because what it allows us to do, what they allow us to do is to face that pain, actually, so that we can reach past it. Because our history is way- has a much longer trajectory than the 400 and some odd years of enslavement. We are the first people, I don't know if I'm going to math properly, but at least 300,000 years ago, we were the only people on the face of the Earth. And if you look at the human timeline, 400 years is a blip in the time. And so just as you were talking, I was getting that, “Oh, if we take these practices and properly move through this pain, we can reach past it to grab and harvest the sweetness.” Yes. Yes. That is ours to have. So, girl, that's how I'm going to be teaching your book. [both laugh] We already started holding it up in my meetings. And so that's another beautiful nugget. The grief helps us to process so that we can harvest the sweetness because there was so much sweetness that is passed, even our present heartache. And what we know from our history of enslaving. You talk a lot about the heart. And this is so yummy to me. As a heart math trainer, you bring heart math into the space. And I actually was going to open up with a simple heart math practice that I just totally forgot. But you land us, you take us. It's in the title, Finding Refuge: Heart Work for Healing Collective Grief. You land us in the heart. Tell me about your love affair with the heart. 

Michelle: Well, I'm a Leo. 

Jenée: All right! This is your season too. 

Michelle: Yes. And we're ruled by the heart. And it is my season, and the heart has to do with courage and vulnerability and compassion for ourselves and others. So, I think I have been in love with the heart for a long time and deeply connected to my heart. When I was a child, I was a serious child, my mother would say, and I was sensitive. And so, I was sensitive to disconnection, and I would even want to bring people home that I perceived to be alone, and they weren’t. I was sensitive to what's happening in this world and how are we misaligned and why aren't we talking to each other? I was like six doing this. I was very young, present to my heart and what I noticed and the heartbreak that created, and the heartbreak other people embodied, and they may not have known they embodied the heartbreak. So, I feel like we have to get into the heart. And it's not just about having a good heart. It's working with the heart. It is like, what does it mean to be courageous at this time, to create conditions for everyone to thrive? What does it mean to have the courage to speak the truth about our history and what is playing out now? What does it mean to extend care to everyone and not just think about my sovereignty, but our collective care? And I think the heart is the entry point and the way I wrote about it in Finding Refuge is about intuition, too. Like, the heart is guiding us. If we deepen our practice of connecting with it, and so much of dominant culture takes away our connection with the heart. And what would it be like for us to be so connected to the heart? We would change everything. We wouldn't be engaged in heartless behavior or patterns of trauma or oppression. So, as I said, it's deeper than I'm a good person. I have a good heart. It’s how are you practicing with your heart? How is your heart showing up? How is your heart guiding you? So, this is how I think about the heart. 

Jenée: That's beautiful, because what we know is that the heart sends more messages to the brain than the brain to the heart. So, you know in the sacred text when it says, “Guard your heart, for out of it are the issues of life” that it's truly it is out of the heart issues life. This disconnection I'm hearing you say that we're living collectively in white delusional supremist culture is part of the malaise, part of the disease that ails us. Can you say more about white supremist culture, the dominant culture, and how that has programmed us, how that has interrupted this engagement with the heart?  

Michelle: Mhm. So. White supremacy and I have a shared language section in Finding Refuge because language is important and powerful. As I understand white supremacy, it's an ideology and belief system that white is superior and that being Black, Indigenous person of color is inferior. It's deeply connected to the racial hierarchy as well, which race was constructed for social and political reason. It's not a real thing. And yet we are responding to the hierarchy of race that was constructed by white men of property at the time. And this is why we're so embedded in white supremacy, so entrenched in everything and embedded in the foundation of how we came to be at this time and why we are operating in the way we are. And I'm also aware that white supremacy doesn't really want any of us to make it. White people are benefiting from it. But spiritually and on a soul level, white supremacy is not like, out to save our spirit. That's not what it wants to do. It wants us to divide us from ourselves, which means a disconnection from the heart. It wants to divide us from each other, people who are like us and people who are different. And it's set up this whole idea that white is superior and that has been institutionalized. It is the culture, right? People talk about the culture, the air, the water we're swimming in. It's part of everything. It's infused in our culture and our way of being.  

And so, part of our practice needs to be to understand, how does white supremacy live inside me? How is white supremacy working on me? What patterns of white supremacy am I replicating? And even as a Black woman, I internalize messages, so I've internalized racial oppression because of white supremacy and racism, because those things are in place. And that means I can replicate systems of oppression or patterns of white supremacy based on what white supremacy is telling me about who I am. Which, you know, white supremacy gives me very negative messages about myself and other Black people and other people of color.  

So, it's everywhere. And I think there's this tendency to- and I've noticed, I’m in a lot of spaces that are mixed. There's a tendency in a lot of spiritual spaces to bypass the reality of what is happening, and the harm white supremacy has caused and continues to cause. And I feel like in these spiritual places and spiritual practices that they really call us into seeing how white supremacy is active and then call us into what do we want to do to disrupt it, to dismantle it. So, I would invite people to look at where it is inside them and others and institutions and culture, instead of saying, “I'm not a white supremacist”, right? It's not inside me. It's inside of everyone. We're all implicated in this system. 

Jenée: So how, as a social justice warrior is, how are these- this programming, the set of behaviors impacting the social justice movement? How? Because if it's inside, how has it impacted the movement towards liberation? 

Michelle: What flashed into my mind is years ago, I worked in a nonprofit and went in one day, and I think the restroom wasn't working in the building and we didn't have anywhere else to go. And the institution was like, but you need to. You need to stay and work. Productivity was prioritized over our personal needs, over relationship, over the clients that were coming in. And I thought, this is deeply problematic, right? So, there are things like productivity and workaholism and binary thinking and competition and power hoarding. All of these things are connected to white supremacy. And how I see them show up in social movements and organizing is that we can show up for the cause. Like, I showed up in that nonprofit that day to do the work, and we can devote our entire lives to the work at the expense of ourselves and the collective good, ultimately, because we can't continue to be in service of the collective good if we're not working to sustain ourselves, to center ourselves, to be grounded, so we can continue to show up. And I think this lends itself to replicating systems of oppression, so to prioritize the cause over the people who are doing the work.  

And I know movements- and I wrote about this. Movements began because they come from a space of grief and loss, of something being taken away or never given to us based on our given identities that then we're called into action to create a movement to respond to that, which is why we need to center grief. We need to practice rituals as we show up for our organizing and our work with one another. We need to ground and center. And that's missing from almost every organizing space that I'm part of or have been a part of. That we don't take time to practice together, and then we expect to show up grounded and ready to do the work. And really, we show up in a messy way. And one of these ways is replicating white supremacy. 

Jenée: This was one of the pieces in your book that I was just in here doing a happy dance. I just felt like she knows my heart, because these are the principles that I have founded The Right Within Experience on, which is for the reclamation of humanity, joy, and well-being, for people of African ancestry. To reclaim our humanity as we are doing this work, that we cannot do the work without this. So, I just want to read a piece from your book. Okay. This is page 58 and 59. I'm actually going to hold it up because if folks don't have the book. Okay. You need to get it. I think some of you are getting it through your package, but I love how you describe this here.  

You said, “Collectives die when we don't prioritize healing, integrity, and wholeness as much as we prioritize the work.” So, this is underscoring what you just said. “Many nonprofits and social change spaces are in the business of addressing what is so desperately flawed in our culture while at the same time, replicating the patterns they are trying to disrupt. This can show up as workaholism, a lack of empathy, a practice of protecting dysfunctional behavior at the expense of everyone in an organization. Power hoarding, perfectionism, a lack of self and collective care, little to no time for staff to connect, and valuing productivity over centering relationship with staff and community.”  

I’m underscoring this because we are at a place in the movement where it is not about can we drink at the same water fountain? We're at the place of the most difficult part of the work, which is dismantling how oppression shows up in the institutions. In policy, practices, procedures, behavior. And I wanted to really underscore that for our listening because it is so easy to say, “I'm conscious, I'm woke,” or whatever the dialogue is and yet perpetuate the system. And I really appreciate that you called attention to these systems that we must slow down. It requires us to slow down, and it also requires us to face our broken hearts. And you speak about that quite a bit. One of the reasons why people are afraid to step into a grief practice is because they think that inside of the grief, they will lose their wholeness. But you say that we can be broken hearted and whole at the same time. Can you please speak to that? 

Michelle: Mhm. You know, I was just talking about this in a session earlier. We have the capacity to have a broken heart, not be broken, but have a broken heart and have an open heart. And part of the reason we have a broken heart is because we're open and alive and awake to what is happening. [Jenée: Mm…mhm.] If we're present to what's happening, our heart is going to feel some pain, some suffering, what we would call broken heartedness, some empathy, some connection. And this speaks to our capacity to open the heart and extend compassion and grace. And it speaks to our will and ability to show up and engage and change how things are going. And we must. And so, I feel like there's a fear about, I mean we talked about the heart, dominant culture doesn't want us to connect with the heart. And there's a fear about the heart and what's present. And what I know is if I don't process the broken heartedness, there's more broken heartedness on top of more broken heartedness. And eventually I'm immobile. I can’t move.  

And so, do people want to hold the heaviness, or do they want to acknowledge what's present and allow themselves to move through it? And not alone, but with support, whatever that looks like. There are so many different ways to acknowledge our grief and tend the heart, care for the heart. So, we're both- we're many things at once. And I mentioned binary thinking is connected to white supremacy and dominant culture. We are- we feel a full range of emotions and experiences, the sweetness and the loss that we spoke about earlier and holding both at the same time and what I call holding these multiple truths and experiences at the same time so we can be both broken hearted and open hearted, and we need to work to shift that it's one or the other or broken heartedness is somehow going to close the heart when really it means the heart is so vast and massive and it speaks our capacity to love. 

Jenée: I so appreciate how you make the distinction between being broken and broken hearted, that they're not the same. Is there a distinction between grieving and suffering? 

Michelle: This is a really good question. I think. I mean, in my experience, my grief is in response to the suffering, because the suffering points to some ways we are out of alignment or integrity and we're not caring for each other or the planet and many other things. That the suffering that we feel because of thought patterns and cognitions and things that have happened to us and what we've internalized and narratives that have been told to us that we believe that are not actually true. I mean, there are many ways we're trapped and suffering, and grief is in response to that. It's like, “Oh, I'm going to turn towards the suffering”, and that means it's likely I need to make space for my grief. 

Jenée: I’m really present to how you are reshaping the whole narrative. That we actually have through the heart the power, if you will, to face the grief. The heart is not weak. It is sensitive. Yes. Yes. But it is not weak. And we have the power to face the grief and transform it into something that is going to allow us to live and to flourish and to do the work and become the people that we really desire to be. So that the grief is actually not to be avoided. It's a tool for the liberation. It's a tool for liberation. [Michelle: Yes.] You have transformed the whole conversation. That's beautiful. 

Michelle: Thank you for reflecting that back to me. And I mean, so much of what I offer in Finding Refuge is the connection between grief and liberation, that we acknowledge the conditions that are in place that get in the way of us being whole, which means we move through grief and then we move into wholeness. Right? And so, I appreciate you- you reflecting that back. And the strength of the heart, the resilience, it really made me think about- there's a mantra in the book in chapter one with the practice, which is I feel my heart and I feel my heart heartbeat. I acknowledge my heart. I acknowledge my heartbeat. My heartbeat is connected to my mothers, to my grandmothers, to my great grandmothers, right. That's contained inside of my heart. And I know there may be feelings about ancestry for different folks listening to this. And one of my teachers, Lama Rod Owens, says there was a healthy ancestor somewhere in there, somewhere in the line, there was a healthy ancestor, and their heartbeat is contained in your heartbeat. So, I think that's really powerful to remember because it speaks to our ability to weather this. 

Jenée: Yes. I love that. When I was pregnant with my son many years ago, he's 25. You go for the ultrasound, and you just see this little blob, and the heart, the heart develops before the brain. So, you see, in this little mass of whatever, the heart was just going, going, going. And this is such a wonderful thing to know. The heart developed before the brain. Now, I love that you said, there had to be a healthy ancestor back there somewhere because one of my questions was around this process of calling on the ancestors. And my question was the white ones, too? [laughing] You feel me, right?  

Michelle: Mhm. I do. And when I work with folks in mixed groups around ancestry, there's often resistance from white bodied folks, which I can hear, right? It's not my experience, but I can hear that because I'm on the receiving end of white supremacy, of course. And people want to distance from that. There's deep trauma in our lives. Right. Regardless of race, we're moving with trauma because of history. And I do believe at some point for white bodied people, there was a healthy ancestor. They don't know the story and they may not remember, but they can call on their healthy ancestors to support us in moving through this time. Right. That this is a practice we can call on.  

And I think I- I'm going to say dangerous, actually, for white bodied people to feel like I'm going to completely disconnect from my ancestors and my history and my lineage, because then it means in their own healing process, there isn't an opportunity to heal their line. And really, I think we do ancestral work to remember the strength of the heart, but also to heal our line so that we can heal in present time so that we can leave a different planet for the people that will come after us, the beings that will be here after us.  

So, I would invite people to- for me, I believe there are ancestors waiting to support us. And I think that white bodied people have at least one ancestor somewhere. Right. And I will say that if working with ancestors in your line is a challenge, the Earth is an ancestor. There are living ancestors here. Connect with nature. If it feels like you need that practice first before you call in people. And again, there are many reasons people may not want to go into ancestry. I understand that. I hear it. And there are many ancestors around this elemental energy. The elements are right, an ancestor. So, we can practice in many ways. 

Jenée: That's delicious. Thank you for that, because I think that is permission and it’s liberation. And it's also loving. It is loving. So, I want to ask you, is forgiveness then a part of grief? 

Michelle: Yeah. I think it can be. And there's a story about my dad in Finding Refuge. And we had a very complicated relationship. And I tell a story of him sharing a story with me of trauma and being with his tenderness and feeling tender myself. And then in his passing, feeling complete. I felt like I had done the work to show up in the way that I needed to show up for him, and I didn't want to hold on to his trauma. So, I did go through a process of forgiveness because that's energy that will stagnate in my spirit and I actually want my spirit to be free. So that's what I want as I've move through the world and people to feel my spirit and divinity. And so, forgiveness certainly can be part of that, forgiving myself can be part of it, for how I have shown up and contribute it to suffering. Right. Which, again, grief is in response to the suffering. And then can I forgive myself and decide how I want to show up in a different way. So, I think it definitely is part of the process of grieving. 

Jenée: Beautiful. What have you forgiven yourself for? 

Michelle: For what I didn't know. And I want to be clear. I'm a learner. I'm curious. I'm curious about so many things and about what this human experience is like and the expansiveness of our spirits outside of the bodies. I'm curious. And I've been leading anti-racism work and being in community and organizing for over 20 years. And there was a point when I didn't know, I didn't know the degree of suffering. I didn't have words for it. I felt it, it was embodied, but I couldn't speak to it.  

Or when I caused harm based on race or based on other identities against other people because I wasn't listening or I was silencing or wasn't prioritizing, or I was engaging in white supremacist behaviors, the ones we named earlier. Or I was being silent instead of speaking up. And so, I've forgiven myself for what I didn't know because we are learning, and this is important for people who have been conditioned. White supremacy also conditions us to be perfect, and to know. 

And so, if we feel like we can show up and go to one training and get all of the skills that we need to raise our consciousness and change the world that's going to set us up. It's an ongoing practice, and I feel like that speaks to how we are engaged in this process of learning for the long haul. And I would invite people who are like, “I don't know what to do because it needs to be perfect” to be in that space of curiosity and to forgive themselves for what they didn't know before, even if harm happened. Because not forgiving oneself, ultimately, I think it will cause more harm because it's causing more suffering. 
 

Jenée: Yes. Yes, that's beautiful. You told a story about Eric Garner, which is very interesting to me because I'm from Staten Island, New York, where Eric Garner was murdered. I know the corner. I've been there a million times and so often in my practice, and when I'm doing keynotes, etc., I will dedicate it to Eric because I just feel that connection. I'm from Staten Island. And one of the things you say is that oppression takes our breath away. So how do we catch our breath? How do we reclaim the breath? And so many- in Eric's case, particularly, he said, “I can't breathe. I can't breathe.” 

Michelle: Yeah. I remember watching the video, which I was not in the practice of doing because these experiences are deeply traumatic and triggering. And for some reason was called to watch it and was sitting in my office. I was a therapist at the time. I remember sitting at the desk. I remember the kind of computer I had and watching the video. And feeling- and I mean, there were so many things that were horrific about that. And one of them, of course, was his life being taken away. It was also how people treated him as he was dying and how people wouldn't touch him. The paramedics wouldn't touch him. And I just thought, I know that has happened before. It had happened before. And there's something that struck me about how disassociated people were and not in their humanity, even as this person was just murdered and dying, their dignity was taken away, right.  

And so, I went into teach a yoga class right after watching that, and the words came out of my mouth, “oppression takes the breath away”. And I wasn't planning on it. That wasn't the meditation we were going to move through. And spirit said, we live in a culture where oppression takes the breath away. And we were engaged in a practice to connect us with the breath, which really connects us with our shared humanity, right. Our humanity and our collective humanity. And I think we reclaim the breath by working through the trauma because trauma makes us hold our breath, right.  

And this conditioning around being contained and having it all together, and that perfectionism I was talking about and not prioritizing relationship and people. This is so constraining to us, and it doesn't really allow us to be in our humanity. And so I also think about years later, I think it was about a year later, after saying “oppression takes the breath away,” I said, “It's a radical act to breathe,” and that is in response to moving through this trauma and knowing that I hold my breath because white supremacy wants me to hold my breath, and it wants lots of people who are marginalized to hold our breath, and it makes us hold our breath. We're, like bracing for the next thing to happen. We're experiencing anticipatory grief because we're experiencing PTSD, 

many of us are.  

And so, I feel like we practice, we reconnect, we take the space to breathe. We notice the ways in which beings are not able to breathe, what conditions are in place that make it challenging for people to have access to the breath. And not just an inhale and exhale. I think about the breath as the inhale/exhale, the physical, the emotional, the mental, the spiritual, the psychic, our whole being, which is really about liberation and freedom that we get to be free and move with ease in our lives because we can breathe with ease. 

Jenée: You speak a lot about the spirit. What is your spiritual practice? 

Michelle: I practice many things. I'm a yoga teacher and practitioner and learner in yoga, studying the different texts and teachings. And my practice that I engage in every day is prayer. My altars are actually behind me. There's an ancestor altar and another altar. And I sit in front of the altar and meditate. I speak to the ancestors, and I ask them what they want me to know. I ask them what they want too because reciprocity is important. So yesterday I made rose tea for my grandmother because that's what I heard. She never asked for that before, but that is what I heard, which makes sense. That's all about the heart and compassion. I think it was her way of being like, “I see you doing the heart work” that's just coming to me now that I think that's why. I use different divination tools, I journal. I write gratitude statements. So, this is the practice every day.  

And I also move in my body and breathe in my body because I do believe it's a radical act for me to breathe in this Black body in a world that doesn't want me to breathe. And I call on spirit a lot. So much feels too big for me because the world is overwhelming. And I call in spirit and say, “I can't hold all of this. I don't know what to do with this.” And I know there's something bigger than me guiding me and us. So, I'm going to call on spirit. And I also recognize my own spirit. Like, as I said earlier, I'm not just this body, and it helps me to remember I am spirit. This is what the texts say. The Bhagavad Gita is the text I work with a lot, and I'm so drawn to because it's so relevant to what's happening here. And there are so many teachings in there about our Divinity, our spirit as connected to the larger self and God. And this helps me feel like I can do what I need to do in the world. Because if I just think about this body and its limitations, it actually can feel constraining and be a challenge to show up in this bigness right, this way we are showing up together now. And so, I need to remember I'm spirit, and that spirit is here with me guiding me. 

Jenée: Yes, that's so beautiful. I recently listened to a talk by the late great historian John Henry Clark, and he talked about how the African always knew that there was something bigger. And I think that this is one of the wonderful things that we have gotten to carry through with us, through the middle passage and on. No matter what practice, we have chosen, this awareness that there is something bigger and to call upon that for help. That's beautiful. So how do you rest? How do you rest? 

Michelle: I think rest is so important. And it's a practice like the practice I went through and just shared with you. And I have a practice of Yoga Nidra. One of my teachers, Tracee Stanley. I love Tracee. She wrote a book that's called Radiant Rest. And it's all about Yoga Nidra, which is deep rest and relaxation. But really to connect us with our higher consciousness and higher self. And in so many ways, I think, to connect with the ancestors and the wisdom that needs to move through or that wants to move through us. So, I practice that.  

I've started to practice sound bathing more. There's something vibrationally going on that I was drawn to, and I'm getting certified to do that. So, I've been listening to those every day and being still. And rest is hard for me because I'm so committed, devoted to my Dharma. I do take time for myself. So not at the expense of myself that I'm passionate about what I do and how I get to be in space with people and show up and the things we get to talk about. Which means sometimes I'm not resting as much as I need to rest.  

But for example, this year I've blocked out all the time off that I was like, made sure because it will just get filled up with things. And so, I want time for myself and rest in nature too. Nature is, I mean, when I was cracked open in a profound way, nature was the only thing that made sense. I was like, there's a cycle in nature and it's bigger than me. And that mountain is there. And I mean, it was the only thing, and the seasons change. And so, nature is a place where I rest as well. 

Jenée: That's beautiful. You're in North Carolina. So, you do get the four seasons? Yes? [Michelle: Yes.] And do you go out walking trails? 

Michelle: Yeah. I have a dog. Jasper. 

Jenée: I saw- We saw Jasper. [laughs] 

Michelle: He is so much medicine. He's right next to me. I love him. And he's heard all of these things from our conversation. [Jenée laughs] Right. He's wise. He's on his meditation cushion. But I go outside on trails. I have three big tulip poplars around my house, and I go- and they're the protectors of the house. So, I go out and connect with them. I go out and connect with the bees, and I have chickens too, so I go hang out with them and garden. But I move in nature. Yes. And there's a mountain called Pilot Mountain that's about 20 minutes away from me. And I go there a lot to climb that mountain and there's something very soothing about that space, it’s the space I would go to a lot when I was cracked open on the floor. Grieving. I did not know what was happening to me. I was called to go to that mountain over and over. And so that's some of how I connect with nature. 

Jenée: That's beautiful. Can you tell me how do you play? 

Michelle: I laugh a lot. I am in community. I have really good community here. And actually, all over the place. That's been a challenge because it's COVID and social isolation, but still connecting with folks. I have a partner who's a chef who cooks for me, and he's silly and he makes me laugh all the time. And so that and Jasper, he reminds me to be light at times. He's devoted and serious, too, about his job of protecting me. But he also reminds me to be light and laugh and to play. I talk to my mom and laugh, and story tell. So, I do play a lot for sure. 

Jenée: So, there's this beautiful balance between because, as I have said, it, I mean, this from the heart. I love this book. I love the way you formed it, that you prepare us with the shared language section, that you enrich it with so many stories. The practices are so accessible. There's a vulnerability there. And you do not shy away from just naming the challenge of white supremacy. You have really- This book is beautiful. I just feel like crying right now, it’s so gorgeous. [Michelle: Thank you.] Can you tell us about that process because you took these huge things and you put them all together? I- I’m just- I'm in awe. I think that's a good word. There's an awe. And I even said to my husband, “Okay, so this is a book. She wrote this book. Get out of my head, Michelle.” That's how I felt. 

[Both laughing] 

Michelle: I love it. Thank you for being engaged with my book in this way. You know what I want to tell you that I didn't know about heart math before I wrote the book, and I was writing the article about intuition and guided to look up and found information. So, it's I mean, synchronous that we're here together. And I was like, oh, that was why I looked for that. Because later I was going to be here in this way. I feel like the experiences I share in Finding Refuge happened on purpose and prepared me for this journey of writing this book. Prepared me for the shamanic journey I went through as I wrote it, and I've built altars for every person I wrote about.  

I was guided to write in a specific room at specific times of the day. And I had to build an altar. For Eric's chapter about intuition and the heart, I had to go outside and build a fire. So, I was really engaged with them, and they helped me. These are their stories. They helped me, supported me in channeling this book and offering. And I do feel like there is a balance of my story and the details of it and then our story. So, I want people to see themselves in this and also see the ways we're moving differently in the world but see themselves in these stories and then the collective too, so it always- each chapter goes back to how we're interconnected and are interdependent on one another and invites us to think about our choices and what we're doing and what we want to do in our capacity to reimagine and change. So, I loved the process because I was working with the ancestors the entire time. 

Jenée: I'm so inspired for my own work. The other thing that I really appreciate about your book is you told the stories of Black men, including your dad. So how did that come to be? I just really appreciated that you presenced the masculine here. 

Michelle: You know, I'm trying to remember when that came to me, the needing to write the story about my father. And there's some information- story about my grandfather in there, too, and grandparents in the chapter about my grandmother and Eric, of course. But he wasn't. He was a white man. He wasn't a Black man, but the masculine is in it in that way. It felt really important to both center different experiences of grief and also different identities. And I feel like often, we're not conditioned to grieve, but in particular, male-identified folks are not conditioned to grieve. So, it felt important to humanize him, too, because he wasn't great in his parenting role. And it felt important to humanize him and explain how complex we really are. And to also illustrate how one can be in the practice of showing up for someone when they don't show up in their fullness and their wholeness, and that affects- affects someone. So, it felt important to bring in these different voices. And he clearly called to be in the book because there's an entire chapter about him which is about coming into wholeness, which is what he wanted, what he needed and what he wanted. 

Jenée: That is so beautiful. And it is also, in my mind, a direct response to the whole issue of perfectionism that we can love, even those that are imperfect. And so, I really appreciate that. So last question, what's next for you?  
 

Michelle: So many things. One is the book I'm writing right now, but I don't know what the title will be. The publisher will decide, but the working title is We Heal in Community. And so, I'm working on that and bringing in other voices, different folks who- and Jenée, I'm going to talk to you about this later, but folks who are doing this, right, and aligned with the need for us to practice rituals, the need for us to work with ancestors, the need for us to dream together, envision together. So, I’m excited and very involved in that writing project. And I also want to say I'm led by my intuition and ancestors, and what that means is I will get information, and then I will listen and respond. And so I don't exactly know what's next for me, because I know my ancestors at some point will tell me what's next, and I'll be guided by them or spirit will tell me, this is really how I move in the world. I mean, I'm intentional and on purpose and know that something bigger is guiding me in the way I spoke about something bigger supporting me. 

Jenée: Do you have a simple mantra for us? [sound of pages turning] You have several in here that I- [Michelle: I do.] a simple one that we could take away. 

Michelle: Yeah. This is in chapter three. It's the chapter about my dad and working in an organization that was not prioritizing care. And the mantra is, “I am whole. I am healing. We are whole. We are healing.” [Jenée: Yes.]  It's on page 64. So, this is the mantra that I'll offer: “I am whole. I am healing. We are whole. We are healing.” 

Jenée: It's beautiful. And I have it highlighted, too. I am whole. I am healing. We are whole. We are healing. It's been a pleasure to be with you, Michelle. Such a heartwarming pleasure. I hope you all have enjoyed this beautiful sister and have just taken in this gorgeous hard work and let it heal and replenish and restore you and get some rest behind it. Thank you for tonight.  

[Uplifting theme music begins] 

Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  

[Theme music concludes]