CIIS Public Programs Podcast

Transcript

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[Cheerful theme music begins] 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Journalist Mónica Guzmán is the loving liberal daughter of Mexican immigrants who voted twice for Donald Trump. Mónica is also the chief storyteller for the national cross-partisan depolarization organization Braver Angels, which brings her to the real front lines of a crisis that threatens to grind America to a halt—broken conversations among confounded people. In this episode, CIIS Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Damali Robertson talks with Mónica about her life, work, and her recent book, I Never Thought of It That Way, in which she shares ways for us all to have fearlessly curious conversations. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on March 24th, 2022. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

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Damali Robertson: I am so excited to here with all of you tonight, Mónica, in particular. How are you doing, Mónica? How are you?  

Mónica Guzmán: I'm doing great. I got, I got my glass of water, you know, here in Seattle. Sun's going down slowly. It's a good night.  

Damali: Awesome. Awesome. So, I'm going to just jump right in. I feel like this is the perfect time for this type of fearlessly, curious conversation. I have been looking at the world around me and just kind of, I’m really nervous for us between the Supreme Court nominee hearings to what's happening around critical race theory and teaching the truth in schools to legislation, anti-LGBTQ and anti-trans legislation. Not to mention the war with the invasion of Ukraine. And so, my whole thing is, there's a lot happening that shows how deeply polarized we are, and I thought this is the perfect time to talk to you. It's a perfect time. So, my first thing to you is I really just want to ask the big question. How does your book, I Never Thought of it That Way, help us bridge some of these huge issues? And I'm talking about those real-life issues, like some of the ones I just mentioned.  

Mónica: Yeah, I, you know, when I think about a lot of the examples you just brought up. What comes to mind is people not being seen for who they are and for the humanity that is in them. So, the cover of the book has eyes on it. Some are open, some closed, they're all different. And the beginning problem statement of the book I've realized is we're so divided, we're blinded. The division in itself keeps us from seeing each other past the ideological disagreements, which are severe in many cases. There's added animosity. There's added misperceptions across the divide that have been measured. There's exaggerations. There's a lot of fear.  

So, how do we build a world where more of us can be seen and can share our concerns and can put them all on the table in a way that our society deserves that our democratic republic was designed for? Of course, not really knowing where we would all go. I heard just the other day, somebody make a really compelling case that we have been through a lot of trauma, and I really hadn't heard it put that way, that when you think of all the wild events and how close together, they seem to be happening that's trauma on our whole society.  

So, the book helps by presenting what I think is the most powerful tool that we don't think about often enough, which is our own curiosity. Our capacity to be curious, curiosity flourishes and requires uncertainty. When we are in times of deep stress, we manufacture certainty in order to be okay, and to feel okay, and that makes sense. Except when it happens to such a degree that it makes us blind to who other people truly are. Across the political divide, there is a lot of distortion and we're going to have to address it to get to a place where we can work together again, be creative together again as a society, but also on more individual level, where we can have meaningful relationships across deep differences. That we know we want. A lot of people are heartbroken and confused by this divide and we can do something about it. We can get more curious.  

Damali: Thank you so much. You know what, I am with you. I am a curious person. I really want to understand the other side and there's some issues on some things that I think even those of us who consider ourselves curious feel very, um…kind of very protective of. And so, I want to go to talk about that election in 2016. Right? And I remember that feeling of coming home and being deeply saddened by the outcomes personally and then going to work and going back into the world and meeting up with those folks who are happy, right? Who are excited. And for me, you know, I literally felt well, do you know your vote was a vote against my freedom? That's how I felt. And, you know, when you share that your parents voted for Trump, and you all still have this loving relationship. I was like, ooh, I want to learn from Monica how she did that! Cause you know it was hard to talk to people just across from me at work, but I didn't have to go home and sit at dinner with them, you know. And bond. And so, I'm curious, you know, that type of division that shows up in our families, but also shows up in our world. How do you actually like, see that with curiosity? Because for me, it was really challenging. I have to tell you.  

Mónica: Yeah, so I've known my parents my whole life [both laugh] and it wasn't until the election in 2000 that our vote and our politics seemed to matter very much. That was the year that we became U.S. citizens. So, we're all Mexican immigrants and came over from Mexico when I was about six. In the year 2000, my parents got naturalized and I was 17. So, I was automatically naturalized. And I came home one day and plopped my backpack down and looked up and saw a Bush/Cheney sign on the billboard over my mother's desk and that was the first time that I was like, they're Republicans? Now at the time it was high school, you know, I watched CNN Headline News, but I wasn't entirely sure of my own political identity. I just really thought that they would think like I did, and the Democratic side just seemed more right, more sensible and especially because we're immigrants. I had all these ideas about that.  

Now, we started- the argument pretty quick. We are a fairly unfiltered family. You never don't know where you stand with my mother. It's a blessing and a curse. [Mónica laughs] So, yeah, that's happened. But in the presidential campaign of 2015, things really turned up for us and I would, I would go to my mom, and I'd be like Mom, you did not raise me to respect somebody like that. You did not. And that was one the most confounding things to me. It's just like come on, really? And with my father, it was different issues, and we can get into it, but the heat got hotter with us, and the challenge certainly got much, much bigger. We yelled a lot more loudly, lot more loudly and one thing that I think of the analogy is, heat is okay, anger, it's fine. It's just about whether it cooks something and doesn't burn something, and we managed to have the heat cook. And even when we had raged. We ended every conversation with some new understanding about each other and that wasn't easy. But I found myself personally grateful every time. I wasn't going to change their minds. And I love them deeply and dearly and I have gotten to the point we've had so many conversations that I, really can say that I do understand why they voted for Trump. So, I'll leave it at that for now.  

Damali:  Well, I mean, you know, there's so many pieces of that that I could parse out, but the one that I thought that was really interesting is that you weren’t working to change their minds because I think a lot of us are engaged in those conversations to change minds. It's about winning and even in your book, you talk about the dopamine kind of hit that we get from winning. [Mónica: Oh, yeah.] And so, I'm curious about how you decide not to you know because I know that's what why we debate, to win. So why do you step back? What is it about that, that you're like, I don't want to change your mind? Tell us about that, maybe one of us could do it.  

Mónica: Yeah. So it's, you know, well I'll complicate that a bit because in the situation with my parents. There is a deep and resounding trust. There's a deep and very strong relationship. So, I can say that we do reach the level of head-on debate, total unfiltered, you know, but this, but this and I would be lying if I said that I wasn't motivated by an intention to convince them. So, debate about who is right and wrong is totally possible and can be really cool. The thing is about the trust underneath, we could get to that point because we knew that whatever was said, we'd be okay. The relationship would be okay.  

A lot of folks who face these opportunities or challenges, to go across the divide. It's not with a relationship of deep trust or at least you come in wondering and that's the place where when you, you go straight into debate, and you say you're wrong. You're wrong. Here's why. That comes off, not as curious, but as condescending, and when you begin with condescension, especially, when you haven't necessarily tried to understand where people are coming from again, my parents and I have had so many conversations. They know that the intention to understand is always there. But when you come in without that, that part being kind of taken care of, people can tell, people see through it, and nobody wants to be condescended to. What ends up happening, is that it makes people want to push you off and entrench themselves even more and affirm their belief about people like you from the other side, who just don't respect them. Don't listen to them, whatever.  

So that, just that does, it works when there's a lot of trust built underneath. But not when there isn't, so that's why in a climate of division, the best thing to do is to actually separate wanting to change someone's mind from building trust and understand the building trust comes first. And that building trust comes from building understanding. And so, and I always say too that you can't understand a mind you're trying to outmaneuver or defeat. You can't do it. It's separate mechanisms. Yeah, and so, a lot of us want to put the cart before the horse, because we’re irritated, this is awful, it takes, it takes a lot to do psychologically it can but, but technically it doesn't have to be so difficult.  

Damali: Hmm. Wow, I mean the two things that you bring up there, trust, and then almost like the flip side of it is the trauma that you alluded to earlier, you spoke about earlier because you know, I was thinking about this as I was reading in your book that fight fight flight, flee or fight. Fight flight freeze, you know, that whole thing had a fight or flight, let's just call it that. But I started thinking about that because I thought, you know, I could see where in so many of these instances that mechanism would happen in our, you know, bodies and our brains. And so, we're not listening anymore and there isn't any trust. So, I wanted to ask you about that like, because to me, that's a big first step in having these conversations is, how do we disarm that place in us that’s afraid when we're confronted with something different? So, can you say something about that and how this factors into your work, or expound a little bit?  

Mónica: Yeah. Absolutely. And this is where I think it's important to say that I don't really believe, especially in this body of work, right? I don't believe in the prescription that applies to everyone equally here. It doesn't exist. Everyone has their own psychological, emotional, social formula. Right? Like a situation where for some people certain conversations across divides are just unimaginable. It's just so difficult. It's not impossible, but it's way out there. You know what I mean? And for others, some conversations are going to be a lot easier. So that's worth saying.  

The other thing I'll say is that we talked about building bridges and talking to folks on the other side. And it can sound like that is the first step is to go to someone else who disagrees on something that matters and try. But it actually isn't. There are far easier first steps. So, one of them, honestly, is the best person you can have a curious conversation with is yourself. This is why I was saying before we manufacture certainty at times of deep stress, we're all doing it and certainty is the arch villain of curiosity because once you think, you know, you won't think to ask. So as a result of, as a result of the stress, as a result of many things we've talked about. We have a lot of assumptions that we make about other ideas and about other people, and those assumptions, those thoughts about other people are in our minds and are in our hearts all the time, even when we're not with those other people. So, here's something that you can do to practice curiosity when you're not ready to actually be with another person and have like an unpredictable, messy, scary conversation.  

And that is next time you see a headline that represents a perspective that really irks you, you know a lot of people hold. This one is as one a lot of people hold, you know, it's not somebody arguing that you can jump off a roof and flap your wings and fly nothing that deviant but something a lot of people hold and instead of just going by it or tweeting about how awful it is. You click it, you open it. And as you read, you prime your mind to be curious in a generous way. So, you ask yourself questions like, what is the deep-down honest concern that people who hold this view are trying to express and have some need for addressing? What is the concern? And another one is what is the strongest argument on this side?  

Those two questions will do a lot to do what I think of visually as put a doorstop in the hallways of your mind. When we form a lot of certainty, it's like we're walking through the hallways of our minds and there's all these doors on either side, but they're all closed. They’re all closed. So, you put down doorstops and you go. Well, let me just let me just leave my mind open here. And I've done this a lot with articles that initially just make my gut level like, nope. Nope, can't, can't do this. And then I read it with the doorstops, and I'll end up going. Okay, I see the concern here. I don't like it, but I see it. Practicing that begins to grinding down some of the certainty softens some of the assumptions. And what you'll find is that as that happens, the idea of approaching someone and having a conversation across differences, won't seem quite so hard and scary.  

Damali: Wow, I think I might have to try this on a little bit, I mean there are things I don't read. I don't, it just feels like too much sometimes. I could try to take that on but the way that you've described it where I don't have to go up to someone and I can do that. Just me and my headline and me and the news story. I think it's worth it. I'll definitely try. Thank you, you know you talk about, and I want to take us to this. And the ideas and practices that we probably do every day of siloing, sorting othering in your book, you talk about those things that we do, right? I think that's something that's up for most of us. And you said, and I love this, you described sorting, othering and siloing as an SOS. So, a call for help, you know, I wanted you to tell me why, why you think of those things, those are calls for help? You know, what about them?  

Mónica: Yeah, so SOS is part 1 of 5. So, I have five parts to the book. And this first part, SOS is the only one that really deals with the problem in a really focused way. And the framework that I put around the question. How did we get here? What's going on? It is about these three, very natural parts of human nature that affect us deeply and make our lives meaningful. Frankly. They're not bad in and of themselves, you add them all together and add, you know, the trauma of these times and you get where we are.  

So, SOS sorting, that is the very natural human tendency to want to be around people who are like us because it's easier. It's more comfortable. Who wouldn't want to do that? Recently, there's been some pretty incredible reporting and evidence about how much more prevalent is this behavior of people moving to different communities across our country because of politics. So, not that long ago we weren't really sure if it was happening. We were hedging, but now researchers are like, yep, it's happening. Here's the data. So blue zip codes are getting blue-er, red zip codes are getting redder.  

Othering. Othering is a term that is often used for the natural tendency to put distance between an in-group and out-group, the social science research on this is particularly chilling because it turns out you don't even need a meaningful difference to discriminate against an out-group in some subtle way. And when you have a meaningful difference. [whistles] You discriminate in very non subtle ways.  

And then there's Siloing and siloing is basically, siloing has gotten like a serious upgrade. Thanks to this bad boy. I mean basically, right, like we have all these laws about, you can't choose your neighbors, but you can here, you can choose your neighbors on the platforms. You can choose what you read, which is a way of saying you can choose what influences your thoughts, you can choose, what comes, what inputs come in and why shouldn't you?  Of course you should, you can design that for yourself. And what's the thing about Siloing isn’t just the customization and how it sort of amplifies the effects of sorting and othering. Unfollow if you disagree, and I'm only going to talk to people who you know, who are in this community online, or what have you. It's also about the fact that that thing represents a whole new kind of way of moving in the world. We don't wait in line for coffee anymore, we look at our phones. We're not open to the serendipitous connections of whatever’s around us or our environment.  

So, basically all of that is SOS, the call for help. You put those three dynamics happening to the degree that they’re happening. With where we are in our society, and you get a society that is so divided that is blinded. What we need to do is counteract those natural tendencies, beginning by being aware of them, being aware of them and how they affect our individual lives, and asking ourselves questions, you know like, what do I really think about all this? And how do I know if I’m listening to the same voices and I haven't really heard the other perspective all that generously, how do I know? How do I know that I’m seeing this fully? If I'm mostly getting you know, a couple of dimensions but it's a polygon. In reality it's a polygon, I’m only seen two or three sides. 

Damali: Man, I mean your point about unfollow if you disagree and like that kind of moment we’re in I think for me, just thinking about, I think there’s a protective factor [Mónica: Absolutely] there’s like, you know what I really don’t have the bandwidth to argue so let's just decouple. I have seen also there is a cancel culture, right, there’s like, if you say something I don’t like we’ll just cancel you, so there is an author adrienne maree nrown who has a book We Will Not Cancel Us- 

Mónica: I have it, oh I don't have that one I have another one, I have, oh, what's it called? Emergent Strategy. [Damali: Yeah.] Anyways… 

Damali: She’s awesome and I think I have all her books. And your book reminds me in some ways of that, let's get back to humanizing one another. Let's get back to seeing one another. Let's get back to being curious about one another. So, I totally see that, I totally see that. But why do you think it's so important for us to keep our hearts open? Cause a lot of this is intellectual [Mónica: Yeah.] and it's about issues [Mónica: Yeah.] and, but you know at the core I’m hearing the humanity in this conversation, so I wanted to ask you about our hearts.  Why do you think it’s important to do that in this moment? 

Mónica: Oh man, well I guess I’d begin by thinking about, it is incredible the volume of words and expressions and messages that now surround us. In no time in human history did so many people say so much. We are getting bombarded, we are participating in it. It’s glorious. And it’s happening on platforms where our full humanity doesn't fit. Literally doesn’t fit right. The phone, I text you, that’s words, that’s emojis, there’s an occasional photo, you don’t get my voice you know. There’s all these tradeoffs on all these platforms, where you know in exchange for the full tool kit of humanity, of human communication, in exchange for our gestures, our voice. What we get is scale, I can talk to thousands of people at once, how cool! We get these amazing tradeoffs. But it adds up, it is a tradeoff, and the internet is basically a non-place that makes us into non-people.  

So, I think it’s important to be aware of the fact that in the places where we are having the highest volume of our conversations with people, all kinds of strangers, invisible audiences, hearing each other’s thoughts. It’s places where we’re not, we are by definition not fully seen, by definition. We get to choose what we want to billboard out front of who we are. And a lot of times, because of the passions deeply felt for ideas in a time like this, people will put their ideas on the level of their name. So, if you go to Twitter or some other platforms you might see people do this much more now than they did ten years ago. Where it’s like here is my name and here is my cause. And that’s it, so here is my concern about that, I mean there are beautiful things about that. My concern about it is, when you conflate ideas with people it gets harder to see the people behind the ideas.  

And so, if it’s an idea that bothers you and you are going to these spaces where these ideas are floating around, and you are not accessing the human being because the internet just makes it hard to do that. It’s very easy for you to just say, this person is that idea, this person is that horrible idea. I don’t want anything to do with this person, they are that horrible idea, that’s what they amount to. And it’s not like we stop and think about this consciously, but I think it is an unconscious ethic that’s out there, and it’s not good because it’s not true, because it’s not real.  

And, you know, we live in this, we work in this wonderful digital space, and you know it’s allowed so, it’s allowed for us to continue to do so many of these things during a pandemic. It’s wonderful. It connects us in so many ways but it is also remarkable how we are surrounded by information and yet we are so misinformed about each other. And that to me can only be because we are actually more distant from other humans in some ways than we have ever been. We see their words, we see their ideas, we fight their ideas, but we don't see the people and we forget that people are a lot more than their ideas, and the ideas can change but usually you won't have an impact on how those ideas can change, unless you get to know the person. 

Damali: Wow, I mean there is so much that you said in there, but I love what you said when you talked about people being separate than their ideas. And how we are conflating, that we’re in this moment where you become your idea. And so therefore if your idea opposes my idea, I oppose you is what I’m hearing you saying. [Mónica: And you oppose me, and I should be afraid of you.] Exactly, so we nullify, or we do [Mónica: Absolutely] that instead.  

So, the thing that comes up for me, it comes back to the political kind of moment we’re in, or have been in for so many years, [Mónica: More than a moment at this point.] Right more than a moment, so I don't want to down play that, but I mean the thing is that I am sometimes really reflecting on some of the ideas that feel really directly harmful to me, to you know people who look like me, feel like me, my tribe, so there's some things around race in particular so racism and oppression and I’m open speaking on some of those things. And I really do want to see what's the possibility of understanding beneath those ideas. It is something I feel personally challenged with and you know I do a lot of different work on that and so I feel like I am making some headway, but I do think that there are some moments in your book for example when you talk about, I remember one where it’s like someone voted for Trump, voted for him because he was concerned about taxes not because he you know he felt he had racist ideas or was racist. And there were some other examples like that and I really you know would love for to talk a little bit more about those things living, you know, again, the people and the ideas.  

So, like, how have you in those moments when you’ve had those groups, when you’ve had those conversations really seen people separate than their ideas. Because I really think we do- I mean, have a hard time with that in particular. So, if you could say some more about experiences you've had talking to people where they really did have that concern about taxes are farming or something that many of us are not even thinking about. 

Mónica: Yeah. So, the one that immediately comes to mind is in early 2017. I and my co-founder of The Evergrey in Seattle and we basically organized in partnership with an incredible person that I'll say more about in a moment a really amazing trip. That I still can't believe happened. But we took 20 people from Seattle down to Sherman County, Oregon, which is the second smallest county in Oregon. It's 1700 people spread over land that is 10 times the size of Seattle, and it was the county that voted exactly opposite King County where Seattle is, in the 2016 presidential election. The reason we did it was because we had named curiosity as a core value of our newsletter, and our community in Seattle.  

And after the 2016 election, people were like, okay, I want to be curious but real talk I don't know any Republicans. I don't know any conservatives. Or it would be, yeah, but apparently, a lot of folks who supported Trump this election are more rural. I don't get that. I live in the city, I've been here my whole life. What's up? So, one thing led to another and through, through the kindness of total strangers in Sherman County who agreed with us that something had to be done. Basically, we partnered with them and created this, this one-day event experience, where we did a five-hour bus ride down for hours of getting to know each other and having conversations and then the five-hour bus ride back. And on the five-hour bus ride back. I could not hear myself. Everyone who'd gone down from Seattle could not stop talking about everything that happened.  

We started with a tour. A very short bus tour because we were a little bit late – traffic. But a bus tour of the wheat fields, because Sherman County is dominated by agriculture, just miles and miles of wheat as far as the eye can see. And then we had a meal. So, the folks from Sherman County, there were 16 of them. And yeah, they had donated the meal, and it was sandwiches. And then we had some conversations and yeah, so I can say more about that.  

But there was a moment when a man named Daren, who was a fourth-generation wheat farmer in Sherman County. He stood up and he’s six foot nine, and as part of just explaining, you know, his reasons for voting for Trump and everything. He just kind of- but also just commenting on the situation. Here's all these city people coming to Sherman County, that never happens, and he points at the plates of our sandwiches, the leftover crust and he goes, if you only knew what it took to get that sandwich on your plate. And I'll never forget that moment. You couldn't hear a pin drop. Just. Wow. So, a lot of what people remember taking away from this trip was what those of us liberal city folk were missing.  

We were missing reasons and considerations for people's political choices that had nothing to do with the reasons and considerations that were behind our political choices. So, you know, for many of us in particular, I talk about- I'll talk about Laura because I've told her story many times, you know, Laura was thinking about, she's very passionate about LGBTQ rights. She's very passionate about the environment and climate change. And she just saw, she just saw like Trump and everything as like, absolutely the wrong direction on all of these things and she figured if people oppose what I support, they must hate what I love. There can be no other explanation- like that- and so she sensed that in herself, but she did ask herself, you know what if I'm missing something? What- what could I be missing? And so, she signed for signed up for the trip. She didn't know anyone else. She sat there for five hours. You know, she really wanted to know. And Daren and other farmers one of the things they shared was about something called the Waters of the United States Rule.  

The Waters of the United States rule is a federal regulation that means federal control of land, based on bodies of water. So, if you have, you know, if there's like a certain pond of a certain size on land, it kind of belongs to the government for the- in these circumstances. And farmers were very concerned that that rule could be interpreted to mean that if there's a big rainstorm and suddenly, there's like a pond overnight in between some hills on my land, the government could take that land, or if there's water, enough water that forms between furrows, which is the rows of crops, then the government could take that land. This may sound absurd, but I started looking into it, and there's actually been close calls on this. It's actually been some pretty concerning developments on this. So, farmers were like, nuh-uh, I can't, can't do that. I'm already operating on the margins. So, it was economic reasons like that, that led them to want to trust the businessman that they had voted in as president and really not trust Democrats who barely spent any time thinking about these concerns. And anyway, so Laura and others were, like, oh, now this does not explain everybody's vote, obviously, but if we discovered that by going and getting curious about other people, with other people, what else could we discover by getting curious about other people with other people? 

Damali: What could I be missing? Seems to be one of the key questions that you think like we should all be asking that. I'm not a big believer in the word should but I would just say at this time that you know, it sounds like something that you would encourage us toward. What could I be missing? Especially when there's something that we really don't feel clear about. Is that true? [Mónica: Yes.] And how often do you use that question in your own life? How often do you find yourself- 

Mónica: Oh, what a good question! I mean, man, what a good question. I've tried to build mental habits. And I think it's happened just because, man, you write a book about this, you think about it a lot, you know, and I've been a journalist my whole career. So, finding ways to understand people is my job. So, yeah, I would say that it's a- I'd like to think it's a pretty consistent thing, which isn't to say that I, you know, I'm constantly confronted by ideas that do not sit well with me, but if I am aware of that, if I- only if I'm aware of it, if I go. Oh, wow. I had a real reaction there in my own brain, that no one can see. Then I will my mind to be like, mm, hang on. What are you missing? What can you ask that person? If there's an in-person interaction. Or going back to the article, mm, hang on. Do you know a lot of people who hold this view in good faith? If you don't, there's probably a lot you're missing because the media is what it is. Our silos are what they are, and I don't want to trust that they're giving me all the answers. So that's kind of that's how I try to walk in the world. It's not perfect, but it helps me stay surprised. 

Damali: Nice. I like that. You know, the thing is as you were describing the trip that you took, it reminded me of that place in your book where you started talking about finding friction and spaces and places outside of your comfort zone, but I'm imagining that might have been a little bit outside of your own comfort zone and outside of your silo. And I mean, I'm intrigued by that idea of, you know, the one thing that I thought to myself is I know most of us may not invest in going to the neighboring community or, you know, to do that. And there's probably ways that we can still do it. Like there's probably ways that we can still challenge ourselves to find that friction. What would you recommend to the average person who may not be ready to take the trip for five hours? 

Mónica: Oh, yeah. 

Damali: What would you recommend? 

Mónica: That's pretty out there, like, totally, no. Nobody. Yeah.  

Damali: How can we do it? [laughs] 

Mónica: No need to go that far. But I do think that despite the fact of sorting other and siloing, most of us have plenty of difference in our network if we look closely enough. Unfortunately, all those dynamics are also leading people to hide themselves, and I could give some examples of that, that's unfortunate. But it's there, you know, there's a lot of differences. So, I don't know, like the first thing I suppose would be to sort of ask yourself, like, who do I know who maybe doesn't go all the way opposing me on the thing that matters most to me, but there is an issue. I don't know. Is it abortion? Is it gun stuff? Maybe I know someone who owns a gun and is really proud of it, and I think guns are like, the worst and harming everyone. Is there something like that that you know? And is that in a person with whom you already have a relationship, a relative, a friend, a colleague?  

And that's a, that's a great place to start. Where there's already a relationship where there's already some trust. Chances are, maybe this is already come up before, but now the opportunity is to get curious and a nice way to start is just to get the buy-in, you know, to say "hey, by the way, you know, I sense that you and I have pretty different perspectives on x. And I'm just wondering, like, you cool with me just asking you some questions about it? I'm, I'm genuinely curious about how you came to that view that is so different from mine."  

And you'll be surprised like, one of the one of the deepest, I think lessons of humanity that I've learned being a journalist, is that everyone wants to be seen. People love talking about themselves. You know what I mean? If it's done in a non-condescending way. Most everyone if there's if there's you know, again not too much suspicion or distrust, people, people are happy to share their story. And so that's-- that's one of the biggest tips that I give in the book is, we're tempted to ask why people believe what they believe. But the better question in times of distrust, is how they came to believe what they believe. Ask them to tell you a story, not to give you their defense. Because it will come off like a defense because of the climate we’re in, they're going to feel like they're on a stand and they're going to want to reach for like the familiar talking point that they saw work on social media once instead of what they actually believe. So, you know, instead try the how. And then they'll tell you a story and you'll find connections in the story, even if you totally disagree with the conclusion. You know, our stories always connect, we share we- you know. We're all human. 

Damali: Yeah, I mean, you do say that the shortest distance between two people is a story. And I think of myself as a storyteller. I'm often like getting into some of the story and talking and connecting with folks. When has that made a difference for you? I mean, you shared a couple of examples in that, you know, the journey and that you took. But I mean, just in everyday political discourse, when especially you're in that moment of disagreement. When has a story like really opened up the conversation? 

Mónica: Yeah. 

Damali: I'd like to hear about that. 

Mónica: What comes to mind immediately is Jessica- Jessica Rickholder-Bueller, who it turns out lives in Sherman County. She's not conservative. When we were doing our trip, which was called Melting Mountains, back in 2017. One of the exercises we had to just kind of gently explore our differences was we asked everybody to go to a different corner of the room based on how they voted. And one of the corners was didn't vote and I did not expect anyone to stand there. I thought, even if somebody didn't vote, no way they would stand there and then I look and Jessica's there. And I didn't know who she was at the time, but I remember being like she didn't vote? What? Wow. Okay, you know, so, my curiosity was sparked, for sure, at that moment.  

I went back to Sherman County in the fall of 2020 to follow up with folks because I had so many questions. The election had just happened. And, you know, I wanted to see how everyone was doing, and what they were thinking, and I met with Jessica, and Jessica and I had kept in touch on social media, and we got around to talking about her politics and her identity. And I asked her, how did you come to that decision not to vote. And I share in the book what she told me, which was a really interesting story about her father being like the only Democrat in town, and the struggles other people had to sort of accept him, you know, a little girl who was like, oh, are you the Democrat? And her mother going, shh, we don't say, that stuff like that. And so, Jessica growing up with this, Jessica if I recall correctly, like, loved Obama really down with that, but then, and she was very liberal in college, and then things started to change for her.  

And she was just, there's a lot of things going on in the left that really concerned her, but she was really concerned with what's going on on the right. And she was just ugh, confounded founded by the whole thing. And so, she told me about having the ballot in her hands. And being like, I can't stomach voting for Biden, and I cannot stomach voting for Trump. I can't- and she couldn't sleep. She couldn't do it. And so, she just kind of came to the place of like, I have to not vote. I have to not vote. And so, once she had finished telling me that story, I understood. I understood. I don't see myself getting to a place of not voting, but I don't know the future, you know, so yeah, hearing her hearing her telling me about that, and the agony of imagining making either choice. Any of the choices. I was like, yeah. Okay, I get it. You don't want agony. Who would? 

Damali: Wow, thank you. And you know the--what I really enjoyed about your book was it introduced me to many new ideas and things that I was like, oh, okay, and one of them was attachments, you talk about attachments in your book, and you explain it around both beliefs and identities that we hold. And I was really wanting to really get into a question there, because you say something about, you know, we're attaching the identities and beliefs and often there's an expectation of an attachment to an identity, a belief, and that really wowed me. I was like, oh, because it may be that expectation that's really the thing that steps in in certain moments, when maybe we would have different- can you talk a little bit about that expectation, to attach to a belief and identity? And where are you seeing that really? 

Mónica: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean we've been there's a little thread through our conversation of humanity. Right? And one of the things that we all, we all also need and crave is to belong and we do, we find meaning in all kinds of identities, you know, they can be as relatively harmless as sports team affiliations or you know, much more- much more personal and serious. Like, I'm a Latina, you know, I'm an immigrant whatever, whatever I am. I'm queer. I'm whatever.  

And what ends up happening is there, there are, there are pretty strongly formed expectations of the bundles that travel together out there because well, they work a lot of the time, you know, and many social scientists have written about this, you know, if you are Black, if you are young, if you are urban the chances that you are a liberal and vote Democrat, pretty darn high. If you are very religious, if you are white, if you are older, if you are rural the chances that you vote Republican, pretty high. So, all of that adds up to stereotypes, we know, stereotypes can get pretty darn annoying. When you start to build expectations around people's behavior.  

I tell the story of my friend, my very good friend, Melina, Melina is Black and queer, and conservative, and she's here in Seattle and she deals with people's expectations all the time. And, and she- she's the kind of person who. Um. She's built up a way of insisting on herself even when people don't see her, and when they make assumptions about her politics, she corrects them, but the thing is, that's difficult to do. So, my father, I tell a story early in the book about my dad is so not about meeting other people's expectations. That is like the last thing he'll do. I remember I made endless fun of him, me and my brother when we were teenagers because that man would walk around with a fanny pack, and it looked ridiculous. It just- we made fun. He didn't care. He wore like shirts from like forever ago. He didn't care. My mom was like, honey- whatever, does not care what other people think, and he tells me a story, and this was in October 2020.  

He's a bird photographer and he walks down trails around Redmond, Washington and at the time and he sees another photographer, who he recognizes from Instagram. He's never met him, but he's kind of starstruck because he takes really good bird photos. So, my dad goes up and says hi. And they get into a nice conversation. And this other man is hearing his, you know, thickish Mexican accent, and you know, maybe saying like, oh, he's, he must be Latino or what have you, we don't know, right? We don't know exactly what was going through the person’s head, but the man, basically, because the election was around the corner, says something very mocking of Trump in a very buddy-buddy way, in a way of like, obviously, you agree. We're on the same side here. And my dad just laughed along, and he told me that, it wasn't even that he laughed along and didn't correct this man. And I could tell my dad was kind of, he's not happy about this. He even like, you know, agreed. He even agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I could tell when he told me how awful that was, you know, so there are expectations, and these things keep us from seeing each other when people feel that they cannot be honest. You know, what are they afraid of? Breaking people's expectations, surprising them in an unpleasant way with their truth! So that's not great. 

Damali: Yeah, I mean you do say that curiosity is worthless without honesty, right? And just what you said in that moment. It also feels like there's a vulnerability that has to happen too, to tell the truth about I am not the box that you put me in. Yeah, and I know as a Black-identified person, I go through that. I have a dear friend who is also conservative and has gone through that a lot. And so, talk- I would love you to talk a little bit more about that relationship, of honesty and vulnerability in not only, you know, creating the ground for courageous and curious conversations, but also, you know, thinking I'm the person like your dad, you know, who in that moment didn't, you know, decided, let me not bother, let me not bother because, yeah. 

Mónica: Yeah. 

Damali: Yeah. Tell me curiosity and vulnerability and honesty. 
 

Mónica: Yeah, so I guess I'll begin with, to me if we are not honest together, we're not together, you know, if the image that just popped into my head is like, you know, when someone shows up but decides not to not to be who they are not to, not to be honest with others about who they are. It's as if they're blurred. They're half there. And we don't see that, right. We don't see that in person, you know, interactions, but it happens. It's happening a lot right now. It's happening a lot for understandable reasons. So, that's where that begins. And honesty is the name of the fifth and final part of the book because after all the discussion about our division and the importance of curiosity and the tactics and tools, you know, you can't leave out the importance of hey, if people can't be open, if they don't feel safe and right and secure and respected and seen being open, they won't be open. They won't do it. And all your curiosity will pull on what? What will it learn? What will they learn about you?  

So again, I was saying that, you know, in my career I've- my job has been always to try to allow people to let me see them, so that I can then show them to their community - that's journalism. And I've done this in some pretty challenging circumstances, including very early in my career when I honestly was not, maybe not ready, you know, I interviewed at a state prison in Texas. A man who I two weeks later watched die by execution for killing two cab drivers for $400 in cash.  

Anyway. It's so difficult. It can be so difficult for people to want to share who they truly are. What they truly think. And, you know, we talked we talked a lot about safety, as we should, we talk about how can people feel safe. And so, I think that a world that sees itself, which is the goal, a more curious world is one that is not too afraid to see itself. Has to be, has to know what it takes to allow people to show themselves at all. And it's going to take a lot more than what we say to each other. It's the cultures we build. It's the climate in which we move. It's the assumptions that we allow to set the tone in our conversations. Several times as a journalist I have caught myself making an assumption about someone and then something that they say will correct that assumption and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so- as soon as I know that I've made an assumption, I will tell them, you know, what, you just said that and I just realized that earlier when I asked you that other question, I just assumed you were liberal. I am so sorry. I'm here to- I'm here to see who you really are. So, so, you know, if there's anything else that it seems like I'm missing, please tell me. You know, I'll say that. Because I want to reinforce that that I am not here for them to meet my expectations. That's not what I'm here for. I'm here to- I'm here to be curious about who they really are.  

And that's the kind of thing that would allow all of us, if our culture were more curious, to put our deep-down honest concerns on the table, which then allows society to function better, because it would address honest concerns, based on people not pretending or performing, but being. 

Damali: You know, there's so much there, and all your answers in it and throughout this conversation I've just, you know, had a million things go off. I think that assumptions thing is huge, and I think that if I'm honest with myself, I do it quite a bit, you know, assuming folks' political views, spiritual views just by, you know, being in spaces with different folks and we think, oh, we're all the same, but I think the beauty of this conversation is planting a seed about how we might take a step toward, toward really seeing the other, you know, the person across from us.  

And so, you mentioned planting seeds in the book and, you know, I find myself benefiting from seeds that have been planted in my life, you know, whether it was in the classroom or some kind person years ago, planted a seed with me and I see it blooming. So, I'm wondering because I feel like this is steps we need to take, and seeds we need to plant, so I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about the value of taking that first step or planting that first seed, because it's such a big conversation. You know, where do we start with each other? 

Mónica: Are you asking sort of what's the first step, or how do we get seeds planted in our mind? 

Damali: So, it's like, what's the first step? But also, like knowing that we are always planting seeds. [Mónica: Yeah.] And so, it may take time for us, as individuals in particular, to get to this place of this super curious conversation. But like yeah, first step seeds, like that kind of thing.  

Mónica: Yeah. I mean I'll say, you know, to add to what has already been said that one, one thing we haven't talked about is a really cool first step in all of this is just awareness of how our minds react as we walk through the world and get surprised or get irritated or get drawn in. We hardly ever stop and think about the sensations that we feel. Our language tells us that the sensations are real - that clicked with me, that tracks, or that dawned on me. The feeling of a sunrise and a new day and a new light, and how that parallels with someone planted a seed, someone put a new idea in my head and all of a sudden, it's a new day. I'm looking around in the hallways of my mind going. I got to look at these rooms again. I feel like they just got a new like paint color, you know, and it's really cool.  

And so, while I was researching the book, there were a couple months where I was journaling what I called "I never thought of it that way" moments, moments where I could, I would think or say, "I never thought of it that way." Journaling them made me more aware of them and being more aware of them gave me this extraordinary peek into how different ideas traveled through my heart and my mind, some of them would get dug out of the ground the next day. Some of them are still there. But the coolest thing was that I could see when one of them resulted in a, in a shift, didn't happen often, but a, but an actual shift I noticed, and I knew where it started. 

There was one point where I actually called a colleague of mine at Braver Angels, April, and I told her April, I just have to tell you that podcast episode we did two weeks ago on abortion, where we had, you know, two conservative women and two liberal women and I was one of the liberal woman. She was one of the conservative women. I was like, I have to tell you something you said has shifted my thinking, not completely. Like, I'm, I'm pro-choice technically. Yes, not completely. But on this one thing and she was just like, "This is one of the coolest phone calls I've ever gotten." Like what? And I said, yeah, I just wanted you to know, you know, and she wasn't trying to change my mind. She was- she just asked a question challenging something I had just said, and her question made me listen to myself and recognize a contradiction that I hadn't seen and that dissonance sat in my brain until it resolved itself in a new way of looking at the issue. So, it's pretty cool. It’s- seeds are pretty cool. So yeah, it's observing how they grow. It's seeing- I've never said this before, but it's like the garden in your mind. You can look at it. There's really cool stuff in there. 

Damali: Yeah, and I mean those moments that you're talking about that I never thought of it that way moments. I think what you're describing a reflecting of like noting that I think helps us to plant the garden, plant seeds and grow it. And yeah, you know what, I take from this conversation, Mónica, is that this is a long game that you know, you start somewhere and who knows, you know, how long it will take for us to get someplace maybe when we're ready to have some of these conversations especially across the big divides, right? But it sounds like it's a long game. Would you agree with that? 

Mónica: Absolutely, and I'll say yeah, there's a great anecdote from John Powell, who is over at the Othering and Belonging Institute, sounds like you might be familiar…but he, he talks about he's all about bridging and how important bridging is, and he had a pastor ask him once, "John, are you asking me to bridge with the Devil?" And John said, “maybe don't start there. It's the short bridges. It's the small bridges.” And he said, “and maybe after a while you'll wonder who you're calling the Devil.” It's such a powerful and wonderful way of articulating exactly that this is a long game, you know, this is a long game and, but- but really these bridges, they're not really connecting ideas. They're connecting people. We're not talking about bridges between ideas, we're talking about bridges between the people who hold them. That's what we're really talking about. That's what the book is ultimately, really, it's about people and people are not as scary as the ideas. 

Damali: I like that. I love that. And it's so interesting because we've had for me, my experience of this conversation has been like a phenomenal experience of just really holding some more of what you've offered. Thank you so much, Mónica. I mean, I have just enjoyed our conversation. I enjoyed reading your book. I really thought to myself, if more of us have- and I'll challenge myself to do this more, to be more curious. But if we were more curious about one another, I think we could go so far as individuals, but as cultures within our society and as a society, and I think you know bigger picture we may be able to see more love and more hope and compassion in the world if we were able to do this. And so, so much of what you offer tonight feels like tangible. Something we can hold on to and take with us into our places of work and school and life. So, thank you so much for this opportunity to talk to you tonight. It was really- and timely, because of some of the things that are happening in our world, right? But it's always up for us how to be more connected. So, thank you so much. 

Mónica: Thank you so much, Damali. This was one of my favorite, I think conversations. I really, really enjoyed this. So, thank you so much. 

Damali: Wonderful. Me too, have a good night. 

Mónica: You too. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
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