CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

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This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Generational silence is a term applied to families who have experienced suppressed thoughts or repressed emotions for at least two generations. Generational silence addresses both the cycle and impact of issues like substance abuse, religion, racism, education inequality, and parenting. In her latest book, Breaking Generational Silence, mental health expert Nicole Russell-Wharton speaks from her Black experience about how slavery left an intergenerational impact on her family and how understanding and healing the root of silence can finally break the cycle for generations to come.  

In this episode, Nicole is joined by Assistant Professor at California Institute of Integral Studies in the Somatic Psychology Department Deanna Jimenez for a transformative conversation exploring generational silence and healing from inherited trauma.

This episode was recorded during an in-person and live streamed event at California Institute of Integral Studies on February 13th, 2025. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

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Deanna: Thank you. 

Nicole: Hello. 

Deanna: I want to appreciate the audience for coming in this weather to see us. 

Nicole: Yes. 

Deanna: And I really want to appreciate you. I appreciate reading the book, and thank you for coming to speak with me with CIIS Public Programs on this very important topic, Breaking Generational Silence. 

Nicole: Thank you for having me. I flew across the country for this. I was so excited about it. And it's an honor to be here in the Namaste Hall. So I think that kind of sets the tone for how this conversation is going to go. 

Deanna: Right, right. I have my notes just in case we, there's some really important points that we explored, that you explored in the book that I didn't want to miss, but I want to start with just the bravery of writing the book. How I experienced it was this autobiographical, psychoeducational how to. And, yeah, I just want to really appreciate and acknowledge what it took to write that. How-to guide that can be accessible to people no matter where they are in their personal healing journeys. Yeah, I wonder if we can start off by just defining generational silence, because that can mean a lot for a lot of people so I want to really hear from you like when you use the term in the title and in the book, Breaking Generational Silence, what specifically are you saying? 

Nicole: Yeah, so the book was actually originally called generational silence, the breaking we threw on at the last minute. And so generational silence is a term that's often used in psychology and sociology and it kind of represents conversation or lack of conversation and avoidance that takes place across generations on specific topics. When I started this book, I was, I had to first define silence, and why I saw it as such a negative thing. And what I learned is that there's so many healthy forms of silence that we do and we practice on a daily basis. I mean, you guys are practicing silence right now because you're active listening. But we practice silence to ground ourselves we practice silence to meditate. We practice silence to be respectful of others. We practice silence when we don't know what to say, but sometimes we just want to be physically present. And so there's a lot of good silence in my life and I can acknowledge that. But for me, I wanted to break the habit of carrying bad silence, unhealthy silence, from generation to generation within my family, and that was our hesitancy and speaking around topics that made us feel uncomfortable. Holding secrets, preventing future generations from healing from things that our elders had to face. And in many ways I think when you're in survival mode you're not necessarily thinking about the next person or the person that's going to come after you and that they may also have to deal with some similar things. But for me, with my personal experiences and then you know why I was so inspired to write this book, it came from a place of frustration around the silence that was harming me, and the silence that was not only harming me but I could see how that same silence would hurt the future generations in my family, my niece and my nephew and now my son. And so as I was writing, I began, it's part memoir but it's also, there's tools and tips for how I went about having these conversations and I wanted to help other people, essentially break that cycle. And so the book became Breaking Generational Silence but you know I want to always stress we are breaking the unhealthy silence. That is the silence we need to get rid of and cut out. 

Deanna: Thank you for clarifying that. And I'm hearing that there's something around like if we're discerning between healthy or unhealthy or good or bad if we're going to hold it like that there's something around the person having choice. And this moving towards the betterment of the individual as well as generations ahead so if we're defining healthy as one that is supporting the present and future generations and releasing in a way. You said that there are reasons why we might have had to hold silence, but that we're in our practice releasing the past necessity for silence we're now able to release it. 

Nicole: Yeah, I think just acknowledging when the silence is necessary. You know when we think about grieving, there's silence plays a big part in the process of grieving, because the trauma of losing someone that you love someone who is very close to you, it is a very personal experience no matter the relationships that you have in common no matter you know who they are to other people it could be it could be a parent and you could have siblings and you will all hurt very differently. And through the grieving you need to take time to process how you're feeling to reflect on the memories I think to process the words unsaid to to, you know, think through what you wish you could have done differently or what you are being robbed of now by losing that person and so as much as gathering and community and storytelling is part of the processing, we also need time to ourselves and so the silence is necessary. But it is not a forever coping tool. And so, as we process we then need to release. Now that I have made sense of all of this in my mind, how do I release, so that I am not holding all of this weight, and I can let it go and I can be free and I can free myself of the pain that I am carrying because of this loss. So at some point, you know the silence needs to turn into a release. And whether that's in the form of one on one conversation with a therapist, maybe it's just with a trusted friend, or maybe it's with a family member, but we need to release. It's part of it. It's part of the healing journey. 

Deanna: And what comes up for me is every behavior is appropriate in some circumstance so again to being able to discern and be in choice on how is this silence supporting me. How may it be harming myself or future generations so that I can then in that moment to be in choice on how I want to move forward. 

Nicole: Yeah, I think also acknowledging acknowledging our feelings around the silence, because, you know, when we're silent because we don't know what to say, we can say that, you know, we can say when we're not ready to talk, if we need more time. I think it's important communication is just important because we can't read each other's minds and so if I am yearning to speak to someone, and they are isolating themselves or choosing not to speak to me that's harmful for me to process so I think just telling the other person, I'm not ready. I need some time. And that's good enough. You know, that's good enough. 

Deanna: I have so many thoughts came through my mind I want to maybe start with just the cultural context as a black identified women, woman in a family, I'm curious how that what the what maybe what the universality, maybe the universality or the unique experiences of generational silence in your family of origin or as a black family. 

Nicole: Yeah. Oh man I, as I did this deep dive on silence and what it means. And you'll see in the book. I started to go back generations and generations as far as I could possibly go to make sense of our silence. And to understand were these taught behaviors, why were people choosing not to speak.

Deanna: Yeah, what parts were adaptive.

Nicole: And so, you know, with any, any family that has experienced significant trauma, they are more likely to deal with general silence because it is how they hold themselves together, it is part of being in this survival mode. And so, my people, African American people in this country were taught to suppress their emotions, their feelings did not matter. There were no healthy outlets, even the church which I speak about in the book. Even at church. Black people were told, do as your master says obey your master don't talk back all these things and so what if your master is the one that's harming you. So, what are you teaching, what are you teaching people? There was literally no escape, and I mean, we see in society that there was a huge stigma around mental health in the first place so I think we've all been on this journey to catch up in terms of self care and mental health because oftentimes it isn't that was passed down or taught within our own families but you know I think about how difficult it was for my elders and my ancestors to cope. When they were being physically and emotionally and spiritually abused and told to take it on a daily basis. And I could see how going down the line, even as we advanced, we would tell our children to suck it up, it's not that bad, to get over it. Because those are all things that we were told. So, I think every family and I write about this in the book but every family can, if you ask the right questions, can figure out where the silence began. And I think it’s very evident in the country, for African Americans, where it started, and so a lot of time when you look at broken systems- you know, my non-profit, The Precious Dreams Foundations, we serve kids in foster care and I'm consistently examining why there are so many broken black and brown families. And there's a history of it here in the States, and back into times with slavery I mean children were sold and mothers would walk from home to home, trying to find their children. And they were just separated from their children. Some of them were never united. They would put ads in the paper trying to find their children. That's not a hard– That's not an easy pattern to break. When you're being broken on the outside. So, there's still so much work that needs to be done. But I think if families can start looking within to heal, and they can lean on each other and build that community inside the house it makes it so much easier to face the world. 

Deanna: Mm hmm. Yeah, thank you for that. I didn't have the experience of church growing up but I did have the experience of in order to move forward in order to progress there, we can't cry over spilled milk. We can’t focus on the things that aren't working, we're going to focus on the things that are and so it just brings back to me like the ways in which the term generational silence some of it is adaptive some of it is based in trauma and then others is the form of adaptation, of resilience. And also just really emphasizing how you're saying around the communication. And with this, you know, with these experiences and everyone holding it uniquely. How do we foster support like maybe if you have some thoughts or reflections on that how do we foster when all of this is happening within a household How do we foster the healthy communication in order to shift this generational silence?

Nicole: It starts with one person. It really does. It starts with one person, and, you know, when we started this conversation, you thanked me for my bravery. And it takes bravery. It really does to be the person to raise your hand in a room full of people who may not want to speak. But you also have to recognize the power that you have in speaking and how what you have to share can possibly shift the family dynamic and help and heal and save other people, even if they're not ready in that moment, what you're saying will be heard, it will be digested. And so I always just say it starts with one person and you don't have to dive deep immediately but you just need to talk. You need to sit around the dinner table and ask questions you need to check in on a Sunday and maybe just ask someone about their childhood, things you've always been curious about people love to talk about themselves, not necessarily their trauma but people love to share stories about their experiences and you know one thing I I recognized in writing this book is, especially our elders, they're not asked enough. They really aren't there aren't enough people saying, what was high school like for you, or what was your first who was your first love, or what did you want to be when you were a child did you end up pursuing that? You know questions that almost set them free in a way, because they have been living their lives and pouring into and investing into the generations that have come after them and helping to raise these families and not enough people have looked up and said, but what about you, Grandma? What did you want to be? Yet, they invest so much time trying to cultivate this space for those who who come after them to, to know that they can be anything or do anything that they want to do so. I think that you'd be surprised, and just picking up the phone and having conversations to ask, starting with simple questions just getting to know your family members better. It starts there and then you begin to develop a deeper more meaningful friendship and they begin to trust you more and feel like you have now created a safe space for them to open up and share. So, whether the dialogue is just between you and one other person in your family. That's a start. 

Deanna: This feels really helpful and you already began doing it but what was coming up for me as you're speaking is how to do that maybe with more specificity because I noticed for myself that there is something around that bravery and communication and also like the attunement. If that is not the norm or if that is not readily available in one's family, how what ideas you have around supporting that bravery to be to real to realize or actualize and you kind of start, it's, it's a slow easing in. 

Nicole: Yeah, it's, um, the, the bravery that that I get complimented on is because of my vulnerability. And so, if we could all be more vulnerable. That is what makes other people feel comfortable enough to take down their guards. In the book I always say, start conversations especially tough ones with I statements instead of you statements. So not to come off pushy or to come off judgmental expressing the vulnerability in how whatever the experience was is making you feel, or the impact it had on you. And like, easy enough I give an example of the doctor's office, and how we communicate with our physicians. And so, you know you could wait an hour and a half to see your doctor, you could be frustrated. And you're so angry now you forgot why you were there in the first place. And, and so your doctor finally walks in and you're carrying all of this tension. You know you can't say, well, you or your office, you know made me wait an hour and a half like that's not gonna open that's not no not at all. And so the doctors walking in looking at you like, oh, okay I see what this is. But if you can say, I'm feeling really frustrated let me just express that before we get into the symptoms and talk about everything else today. I had a lot going on, and because this appointment took later than I expect it took more time than I expected, it's really just thrown me off so just want to put that out there. And that gives the doctor, an opportunity to acknowledge your feelings, potentially express why there was a delay, but then also see you as someone who is open to having a dialogue about how to fix this, rather than you being someone who is coming and being confrontational. And so, I think every single person can point to their childhood and feel like someone did something wrong. Someone made a poor decision that had a negative impact on their lives. And so, it's easy to say, point the finger and say so and so did this and that. It's harder to say, I've recognized that I have these triggers, because I'm still holding on to this thing that happened to me and how I experienced it is still bothering me. And it gives the other person an opportunity to explain to you how they experienced it. In the book, I talk a lot about my, my parents separation. It comes from my experience right and I was a child, my parents were not sitting me down, saying well here's what mom did and here's what dad did this is why it's not working out. So, my feelings as a child and even into adulthood learning how to cope with all of that were just centered around what I thought was happening. And so even with writing this book and with speaking to my parents has given them the opportunity to explain, explain their side of the story to explain things to me that they felt were inappropriate for a child's knowledge in the first place, because they were trying to protect me and there so many things I didn't, they felt I didn't need to know. 

Deanna: And that still energetically lives in the field. 

Nicole: Absolutely. 

Deanna: So this what you're speaking of generational silence there is something also around just the stories that we create when we don't have clarity or affirmation like being in that unknown especially as littles. And so to be able to give that space for the parents or the elders to speak and connect some dots there's also an opportunity for you to bring some clarity to the sensations, the feelings, the emotions that you are having without any knowing understanding. 

Nicole: Yeah. And sometimes it could be more healing for the other person than it is for you but either way I mean just having the conversation is helping you all make, make some type of progress. 

Deanna: Right, right. I want to– There was a quote that you quoted from Barbara Neely, and you said, I don't know how– well, the quote says “I don't know how to heal a wound and not let it get some air.” And that just really for me is connected so in the book you share your health journey, which pulled you to the breaking point to really initiate these conversations; too often there are things that bring us to that point of bravery. It takes more to stay where I am than for me to cross this threshold that I've been avoiding. So, um, when, you named this earlier, but when you are, when you propose in what you propose and breaking generational silence can feel quite challenging if the silence is fed by unhealed trauma. Can you share some of those ways in which you built the courage to initiate these courageous conversations with your family, like some again like how, in general, yes conversations, but how, like what are these like steps in order to build that courage or that bravery?

Nicole: Oh man. That's such a good question because the first step was really working on me. And I think everyone needs to work on themselves before they try to fix anyone else, or help anyone else. And so what happened with me is I had been on this self-comfort, self-healing, self-care journey for so long and you know getting all of these certifications and teaching children how to cope in healthy ways for so many years this is just naturally part of my life and I thought that I had figured so many things out about myself, and it wasn't until I had a health scare and a near death experience that I recognized, I actually don't know my body. I knew what it needed to an extent. But when this happens, what do I do? Or when I am triggered to the point of what I think is no return. It's not as easy to go for the walk, or to pick up the journal like what do I do now? So, before I could even think about writing this book, I had to work on myself. And, you know, there's a lot of people who are judgmental and can point out everyone's flaws except for their own. And I didn't want to be that person that's not seeing myself as an unhealed woman who has flaws who has room to grow, who has potentially harmed people through conversation in relationships who has made mistakes. I wanted to see myself as all of those things and be completely open to doing the work that was needed to be my best self. And if I didn't do that work and if I didn't do extensive hours of therapy, then having conversations with family members would have been extremely triggering for me and potentially cause me to react in ways that would have forced the other person to shut down. So, I had to learn how to work on myself. The other thing, I read this book called What Happened to You. And it made me start. I became like very obsessive with wanting to know everyone's why. So like, why are you here, why do you get a school here, why are you studying this, so like, just this obsession with wanting to uncover the layers of people. And what you find with being curious to want to know why, and what happened to people, you become less judgmental because you recognize that those behaviors. They stem from something, right, whether it is what they were taught, or is the lack of knowledge. You know, are they always say our parents do the best they can with what they have. And so, for me to start this journey and for me to start having these conversations with my parents, I needed to be equipped enough to point them in the right direction for traumas that they potentially dealt with that I didn't understand, or couldn't relate to. And I also just had to be in a place where I was healed enough to listen. 

Deanna: Right, right. I was hearing you saying point them in the right direction but I'm really strongly hearing like, how do I point myself in the right direction, not if but when these conversations touch a young or unhealed part, how can I continue to tend to myself so it sounds like another, speaking to another like in preparation for these conversations, if they're not natural or if they're uncomfortable is really coming from a place preparing yourself and coming from a place of love, curiosity you named. And then the word really comes up for me is just being relational. How am I developing this? The curiosity the trust that everyone was doing the best they could not in a cliche kind of way but really being able to feel that in one's bones. 

Nicole: Yeah, and and being patient, recognizing that this work is not easy. Breaking generational silence doesn't happen with one conversation. It doesn't happen overnight. And sometimes it takes baby steps. Sometimes it takes people a very long time to feel comfortable enough to open up to you, you know, we, we all have relationships with people we've known for years and there are parts of themselves that they may hide from us, or that it took a very long time for them to finally open up. So, being patient and recognizing that everyone is on their own healing journey and they will do that at their own pace, and not having any expectation that the outcome of every conversation is going to be what you want it to be, because it may not. And that's okay. 

Deanna: Right, right. And what comes up for me now is to say and with all that we've just named. If the need in the moment is space, then that's okay too. It's not this like we need needing a conversation or this connection or this relation, but that there's something around the time and space also for actually this relationship for this wound to heal needs time and space. And how that can be okay as well. 

Nicole: Absolutely. 

Deanna: Feels powerful, and essential, yeah? We spoke in general already but around the value. Some, there might be people here online saying like so why, what is the value, what will I, how will this benefit me, and I think we've kind of spoken to I want to just give some more space like why, why read this book and why break generational silence? I'm doing fine on my own. 

Nicole: Yeah, and if you are then that's great. And I commend you for it. We're all on very different journeys here. For me, the value of breaking generational silence, internally, it's, it's the healing, it's the understanding what your physical body is carrying. We can learn a lot about our minds and our brains through evaluations through our, our education experience. A lot of times we don't actually learn about our physical bodies until we start to have health issues. And that may need to be the case because through conversation and asking questions we could actually be equipped to be proactive and set ourselves up for success to potentially avoid some of the health issues that other that our elders have faced some of the complications they've dealt with or even passed away from. There's work that we could be doing as children to avoid those things so there's a lot of internal benefits. There's the benefit of relationship building. And it's not just strengthening your relationships with family members. It's strengthening your relationships across the board, we learn love at home for the very first time but then we go out in the world and we test it and we make friends and we have romantic relationships and we're carrying all of those practices that we were taught, And so if we can learn to deal with the most difficult, challenging situations with the people that we love the most, then we really could face anything in our external relationships. So, there's a ton of, there's a ton of value. The other thing I would just touch on is epigenetics. And so, while it hasn't been scientifically proven, you know, there are studies that show we are carrying our ancestors experiences and their trauma and understanding that helps us better understand ourselves in how we respond to things and why we think the way we do. I have these extremely vivid dreams. And sometimes they make absolutely no sense to me I'm like, why did I just dream, I can't even put this together. And understanding my family's experiences they start to make sense. 

Deanna: Right, right. Right. Epigenetics really is coming forward and speaking that yeah. There was something that you said, just a moment ago around the value one around genetics and like physical health and really that our bodies carry energetically, embed energetically, whether, like you're saying as a young child whether we are conscious of it or not, there is a vibrational. So it's, I'm thinking like, not only breaking generational silence but there's also something around breaking generational patterns in relationship, there are ways in which we move through the world, which we are in relationship with others, I mean, I don't want to throw out percentage but a majority of it is unconscious. So when we can start being curious of bringing to light, like, oh, that is how elder so and so that's just how we know how to communicate. Now going back to choice. Is that how I'm choosing to be in relationship moving forward? 

Nicole: Yeah, that actually, so I think about all of the different topics because this book is a journey it's it's my own journey and the inspiration for starting this book in the first place was because I received a diagnosis of thoracic endometriosis. Long story short but you'll get the long story in the book I had, I had six surgeries in a year. My lung was continuously collapsing. My world was just spinning and turned upside down and it started with this curiosity around my health, and whether or not this is something I was born with and there were things that I could have done to prevent this from happening. I very well could have received an endometriosis diagnosis, much earlier, before it had spread through my body to my lung. But, you know, every time I went to the doctor and I shared my symptoms I was pushed out the door, and I was silenced. And I was told that what I was dealing with was unfortunate but it happens. And if I had known more about my family's history and what the women had experienced with infertility and and painful menstruals and all of those things. I would have had the knowledge to educate my, my doctors and my physicians in those situations and say, No, this is not normal and this is something that runs in the family and I want to be tested for endometriosis. I could have done that much sooner. So because of that, I was inspired to start journaling and documenting the things that I knew about my body so I could pass that information on. But as I was doing that I started to think about all of the other things that I felt uncomfortable talking to my family about or that I avoided, because it just, there were things we didn't speak about. And I thought about some of one of the topics in the book is finances. And I was so uncomfortable talking to people about money, and I didn't know why. It's like my money is my money and you need to mind your business. And I made a ton of mistakes with money in my 20s and establishing credit. I didn't have the tools and it's because my parents didn't have the tools and they, they weren't taught and so they couldn't teach me what they didn't know and so my husband and I would have these conversations which he was comfortable having but I was not. But I was learning so much from him about investing and saving and I thought, it's not too late to teach my parents these things, they, they are here and they have the opportunity to prepare for their futures, even in their 50s and 60s. And so it was taking those conversations that I was having outside of family, and then bringing them in. Was I sure that they would be open to it or even care enough, no, but I figured, if I have this knowledge and something that I could benefit them, why wouldn't I just share it? And so, in the book, you'll see, I go from topic to topic and I'm just starting to talk about all the things that we never talked about and it's for their benefit. And in some instances they were very open to it and and accepting and happy that I was sharing. And in others, you know they were very defensive and didn't want to know, or to learn, and that was okay because I knew that I had at least shared. And if at some point, they decided they wanted to be open, they had the information that they could apply it. 

Deanna: Two things come up for me one is, as you continue to share and different examples. I feel this thread of this reaching back, supporting parents, supporting elders, grandma, while also planting the seeds for future generations so if parents aren't open to what you have to share you're practicing communication on how to prepare that for the future generation so there is no loss in that process of looking back, supporting those and what you've learned, and also preparing, moving forward. That feels really powerful. And there was something you were saying we're talking around like genetics you could have known so much earlier there's something around being able to be an advocate for yourself so even if you're not able to have these conversations that there is something around you did like around starting right here, documenting preparing. So even if you didn't get the information about endometriosis, you would still have your following of what your body needed in order to advocate for yourself, whether that meant medically, what have you. 

Nicole: Absolutely. And I was just thinking the other day, I have a seven month old son and I was thinking, the very best thing that I can give him is this book. If something were to happen to me today, five years from now, 10 years from now, he has this book that is full of information about his family. And he can use it to protect and save and support his future children. Someone commented on a post the other day, and they said that their mother left them their journal, when they passed away. And the person said they read the first page, and then just was crying and had to close the journal and they haven't opened it since because it was just too much to see, you know what what type of pain their mother had experienced. And I thought to myself, I'm glad they have this journal, and it might take them some time. But understanding our mother's pain is truly what helps us understand ourselves. Our mothers carry us in the womb for nine months we're part of that journey with them, you know, and they always say, the baby feels what you feel, we do, we were actually just talking about family trips and you were saying you would take the kids places and they wouldn't remember. But yeah, it feels like you're wasting money but you are embedding all of these, these, this energy and all of these experiences in their brains and their bodies and in their spirits that make them feel good and and they will never forget that and that’s stuff that will get passed down, even if they can't pinpoint where they got it from. 

Deanna: That's what has been refreshing for me, that there's something around, creating those building blocks. That even when it's not the memory without the photo that there is something around creating the foundation like the the truths that we hold are ones that are often not, we're not cognizant, like I am safe. I am loved. I am surrounded by those who care for like all of those like truths that we hold for ourselves and they're not always positive but to be able to create those. I am creative. Yeah, that is. One thing that does come up for me is a lot of your examples are ones of the diary I have access to or the journal I have access to. I have my parents I have access to them I'm really wanting to speak to those who might be listening or might be here and say, What if I don't have access to those people and you work with foster care so how do I wonder if there's something that you could say to this population of folks who are for whatever reason I don't have access to that historical knowledge, how can I still be a participant in sowing the seeds. 

Nicole: Yeah, so I actually faced a lot of barriers. I was diving into the history of both sides of my family. And on one particular side it was because my mother has a very small family, and people had passed away and so there really wasn't anyone to get the answers from. My, my grandfather suffers from dementia, my grandmother has passed away. And so, you know, my mother didn't have anyone that she could call to kind of make sense to these things. And so, as I was writing this and I was, I was looking for more information I started using the internet and online tools to do my research, looking through public records, looking for death certificates, so that I can understand who was married and why did they die and where did they live. All of this information is is public and can be found on online. There's, if you trust it and I am not guiding anyone and making a decision either way but if you trust it there's like ancestry, 23 and me which I think just got sold so do your research there. And then there's also websites where you can, you know, sign up to find family. So that was something else that I did I found myself messaging on these apps with third and fourth cousins trying to put the pieces together. And then also, with the little bit of knowledge that I had finding people that knew my grandparents, finding people that grew up with them and asking them to share stories so that I could make sense of some of these things and a lot of what I learned about my grandfather was from his wife who is not my grandmother but was in her 90s and was still able to recall information from his childhood, and she was the one who just a year or two ago was able to teach my mother things about her father that she had never known, because she didn't ask the questions. So, you know, there are ways for you to find the information online but also, you know, if you're curious enough. Figure out the town figure out the church figure out the school where they went to and try to find people that were connected and are willing to sit down with you and talk to you. 

Deanna: So you're really inviting this archaeology of one's history.

Nicole: If you care enough, yeah. I was just, I wanted to know as, as much as possible so I was. I was willing to do the work, and you know with storytelling, there’s no– storytelling is not factual. As I tell stories they're my experience and when you ask your parents to tell stories, it's going to be their experience. And it's up to you to take all that information and do what you choose with it but even in this book you'll see, I interviewed one person and I found out my grandmother had a certain amount of kids. And then someone else who was doing research for me in the town that she grew up in found death certificates of children we had never heard of. Because she lost babies newborns she lost a child that was two years old and I don't know why it wasn't talked about but it wasn't and her own children wouldn't have known this if we didn't find those death certificates. 

Deanna: Wow. Wow. A real opportunity to get to know yourself and to be able to like you said create a book or create some information for your, your little ones for your offspring to really be able to. I do want to kind of, what’s coming up for me, we were talking around patterns that support or embed these gener- this generational silence, and it feels really important especially in this day and age to speak of when there are systems, systems of oppression or systems that also reinforce this silencing. And I just want to see if there are any thoughts you have on that around you know, I guess, I'm really noticing when there are, when there is the desire there also forces and one thing that I received from your book is when there's a will there's a way. How do I really move toward the, stay the course of what feels important for me for you was like genetically I need to find out this information. And, and just wanting to really acknowledge when there are larger systems of erasure or silencing. Just any thoughts on that. 

Nicole: Yeah, I think you. I think you really need to weigh your options and see which one is more harmful. So, for me, personally, it's more harmful for me to not speak. And the last section of the book is speak or repeat. So, it's, it's really difficult for me to see inequalities and injustice and say nothing. Because of my line of work with the foundation, it is really difficult for me to see children being harmed neglected abused or abandoned and say nothing. I recognize my voice has so much power that I have the ability to change the trajectory of someone's life, we all have that power. I would rather lean into doing that, then be silenced, because, because of who I am, it eats at me physically, mentally, spiritually. I am just such a passionate person that I simply cannot sit back and say nothing and do nothing because I, I already have seen what power my voice can have in changing policy and advocating for others and changing helping to change people's situations. I have seen the power of community I've seen the power of protesting I've seen the power of rallying for good and so, because I have been a witness to that, it's just impossible for me to to sit back and be a victim. And everyone is not ready for that. And that's why I say, you have to weigh your options and see what would be more harmful to you and to your family, if you don't speak up. 

Deanna: Right, right. I weigh your options and I'm also hearing that you're not alone, like that there are even as you describe yourself or the organization, yours or others that there are ways for, if there is the desire to really get support, to be surrounded by others who can support with until the bravery kicks in for oneself, to really be able to be in circle with others that are breaking these generational silences on many levels. 

Nicole: Yeah, you can be in a protest and you don't have to be the person on the microphone. So it's, it's finding, it's finding your people it's finding people who are also passionate about the cause and and leaning on each other to get the job done. 

Deanna: Wonderful. So, we're going to be nearing the close. I want to give you the, the floor to see if there's anything else that feels important to name or to bring in that hasn't been explored yet. 

Nicole: I would just say that this is not easy work. What is easy, really? What is worth having that comes easy? So, if anyone is hearing this and curious enough to consider having a conversation with anyone even if it's a cousin. I would say, read the book, buy a journal, talk to a therapist right away. And start with you. It's worth it. It really, really is worth it. The other thing that I have learned in this crazy journey of health battles over the last few years is how priceless our breath is and how powerful our breath is. So when you are having difficult conversations or even when you are preparing for difficult conversations to just breathe. And before you react before you respond, just breathe. Take a deep breath. Focus on your breath, and let your breath guide you to making the right decision. I cannot tell you how many times I was so nervous to pick up the phone and have conversations with my dad, someone who taught me silence as a coping mechanism. And in order to calm those nerves in the butterflies, I literally just had to breathe and tell myself, how bad can it be? Worst he can say is no, let's just do this. And I'm so glad I picked up the phone. 

Deanna: I hear you really developing this inner, I've heard throughout the interview, there's like a lot of inner dialogue or a lot of inner support. How bad can this be? What's the worst he can say? It's more risky to not say something. So I'm just noticing your inner dialogue that allows you to be present, even in the maybe like knees shaking. 

Nicole: Yes, because when you are the first to do something, you are your own coach. And so there's there's no one that was in my family preparing me for any of this. So I literally had to guide myself through it. 

Deanna: Yeah. That's what I appreciated about the book is that sometimes it is said so in sound bites and so easily: just break generational silence. That's what we need to do. And cognitively, yeah, we understand that we get that. But what do I, how do I take this first step? How do I actually in action right now, break that break that silence. And that can be daunting, especially if you're the first one, not only in your family, but maybe in your circle, in your community. So you're not just breaking it for your family, your breaking it for the community in which you are moving. And that can be daunting at times. So the book gives some real support around these small, small reflections or small how to's in order to take one step at a time. 

Nicole: Yeah. I guess the final thing I would just say for everyone here and everyone that's listening is the question I want you all to leave here asking yourselves is, how much do I know about my DNA? And if there's anything that you don't, that you don't know that you're curious about, it's not too late to find those answers. 

Deanna: Beautiful. I'd like to have a closing thought, a few things that I really appreciated from this talk and from the book. Really just emphasizing relationship, there's no, there are risks and benefits. The risks are really that even in the discomfort, even in the potential you know the ruptures that I'm sure are bound to happen at some level that you're really building a capacity to have these difficult conversations. And so you're in choice, and there is a lot of upside, whether it be genetically health wise or just really building the capacity of building relationship. You said, at one point in the book, great risks are needed for big changes. And this work must include rest. And there's something around holding the balance between looking ahead while also – I think this was something around joy, being in joy – there's something around, looking ahead preparing for the future while also just being in the moment. 

Nicole: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. This was great. 

Deanna: Thank you.

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live.

Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Yaritza Benitez, Hillary Drake, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Patty Pforte, and Pele Shalev. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.

CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities. 

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