CIIS Public Programs Podcast

 transcript

[Theme Music]  
 
This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. Through our programming, we strive to amplify the voices of those who have historically been under-represented. To find out more about CIIS and public programs like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms.  
 
[Theme Music Concludes]  
 

A-lan: Good evening, Rachel!  

Rachel: Hello! 

A-lan: Before we begin, I just think it'd be really wonderful to just share. Tonight, I'm speaking from the unceded land of the Konkow Valley band of Maidu Indians here in Chico, and I'm also representing Stanford in some ways tonight, and so we are seated on the unceded land of the Muwekma Ohlone people as well. And so, I just invite anybody who is here with us just to recognize the Indigenous lands that you are occupying with us this tonight, and curious to hear where you're at too as well Rachel. 

Rachel: Yeah, thank you for that. I am currently on the unceded lands of the Nuu-chah-nulth Nations and giving thanks to them as the Indigenous stewards of the lands that I live, work, and play on. 

A-lan: Absolutely and I just I love that. Okay. Well first let me start by saying how much I enjoyed your book that we're going to be talking a lot in digging deep in tonight Do Better: Spiritual Activism for Fighting and Healing from White Supremacy. And from the very beginning you make these alliances between Black and Indigenous peoples as of course the original stewards of this land, original peoples of this land, Indigenous folks, and also the original or maybe not the original but the laborers of this land that have created and been the backbone of what we now call the United States. And so, I just want to affirm that as the beginning of this conversation. 

Rachel: Ashe. Thank you. 

A-lan: As you affirmed so much in the beginning of your book and so I just want to speak to and just kind of call attention to those collaborations and that necessary work together and could you speak about that as we begin this conversation? The work of Indigenous and Black solidarity? 

Rachel: Sure. Yeah, it felt really important and imperative to me to ensure that A) this book was like as intersectional as I could possibly make it which we can get into and I'm sure we will but for me it was vital that we, or that I was very clear about who I was prioritizing and centering in the work of dismantling white supremacy, and the work towards racial justice. And so, for me that's always prioritizing Black and Indigenous folks because especially Black and Indigenous women and femmes and non-binary and gender non-conforming folks because we not only come up against oppression, discrimination, ostracization from white supremacy and racism but also anti-Blackness and anti-Indigeneity which is universal from all races and ethnicities including our own. So that is the piece of solidarity that we have in common and so it's really important to me that we are prioritizing Black and Indigenous folks and of course Black Indigenous folks.  

A-lan: No, absolutely and globally. 

Rachel: Yes. 

A-lan: I just love that you brought it outside of the United States very quickly because it truly is like the United States’ biggest export and we see that in many, many cultures -  colorism, anti-Blackness, anti-Indigeneity across the world. So just wanted to underscore that element of it. One of the things that struck me so much about the book, and we talked about this when we when we spoke before was how right on time it felt. Not only for this new moment of racial like awakening that we're in today, but also you really do center us and speak very much to this moment we're in right now, this COVID-19 pandemic moment, speaking in a post-racial uprisings around racial injustice that we saw across the country and world this summer. And so, could you speak to me about the timing of writing this book and how you are both using the moment to create a work that would live in the now but that would also transcend into the future. How did the moment inform the work? 

Rachel: Yeah. [sighs] Like so much is different and yet so much is exactly the same so. [both laugh] So, and I laughed because we had talked about this before and we could talk about this, you know for so long. I always say that I started writing this book from before I entered this earthly plane, like before I came out of my mom's womb and this work is absolutely a product of my ancestors and I really wrote this as a conduit of my ancestors, which was a gift. But this work, it was really important to me that this came out as soon as it possibly could because I just feel like it's, you know, needed to come out for so long and this work is a culmination of all of my life's personal and professional skills and experiences merged together.  

And so, this work feels right on time and yet absolutely timeless, you know? And when people continue to talk about, and I do too, this time that we're in which is different in many ways, like I said before but also, so exactly the same. So, I always talk about this, you know, a lot of people are focusing on the last four years under the Trump Administration and Trumpism and I need us to focus on the last 400 years. And you know when I'm talking about this work as a racial justice educator, as a queer Black woman navigating a white supremacist world, like there's nothing that I'm saying that's new. There's nothing that I'm saying that my ancestors have not said like, the medicine is out there, you know? Do I feel like I fused it into a new way in this book? Yes, of course, for these times, given like the modern era that we're in certainly, but nothing that I'm saying I don't think anything that any of us are saying is new and that's you know, deeply traumatizing in and of itself to have to continue to say the exact same things over and over just in new ways and in a new space.  

So, I think it's right on time because we're at a time of global collective reckoning. We’re at a time when people have the most power and privilege, racially of course white people have had fewer opportunities to choose to ignore issues of racial Injustice and the ways in which they perpetuate and benefit from white supremacy. And that was a result of, you know, a massive stand still around capitalism, which is an offshoot of white supremacy, and I don't think that was some big, massive change from inside. I think that was a result of our collective consciousness shifting and a result of like spirit, universe, higher power being like this is what I'm going to take into my own hands to help you humans on this earthly plane figure that out. And where we go from here, I'm not sure, but I think that any work that we have around dismantling white supremacy, around connecting to something bigger than us, around racial justices is generally timeless because we're just not getting where we need to be, you know, fast enough. 

A-lan: Soon enough. 

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.  

A-lan: No. Absolutely. I mean, there's so many things I want to respond to in what you just said. I mean one, that I often say within the curse is the cure and I hear that so much in what you just described and also throughout the work of the book, you know in the curse is the cure like we have to really be willing to face it head-on in order to navigate our way out and sit with it long enough for it to transform us. And also, just thinking about how generous you were with this book. Like when you said that it was the culminate, you know, the culmination of your life's work up into this moment, you could really feel that it was a primer of literally everything you need to know. And maybe you know, I don't want to generalize it that big, but you were so generous with really walking us through all the different elements of the ways that white supremacy shows up and also giving us some pathways, tools, spiritual tools, emotional tools to help us navigate through that and so I just want to just illuminate that as I think what was a true star of the work that you did in this book was just like so generous.  

Rachel: Thank you. Thank you. I agree. I agree. [laughs] 

A-lan: You know? So generous. Totally. I mean though, like you hit up so many points and I guess too I'm interested in the work of centering too. You speak and you spoke just now when you speak and make it very clear in the beginning of the book that this work is in service to Black folks, Indigenous folks, women plus in particular folks of color. But also, the ones that need to do better are white women, plus folks, white femme folks and folks that kind of exist in that system and so what is the balance that you had to find with doing this deeply generative but also like emotional labor around educating white women in this book, but then also allowing enough levity and space, you know to find some healing and context and holding for Black folks, Indigenous folks, folks of color? Where does that balance? Hard one. 

Rachel: It's a hard one. It's a really fine line to navigate and there was times where I just didn't think it was going to be possible, to be honest, but I was very, very clear. I mean at the very beginning I was like, I'm not writing a book to white people. I say this explicitly in the book. I was like, I didn't want to write a book, to white people. Truly, it was like last thing I want to do. Most books are written to white people, irrespective of who the author is because that's the status quo. That's how we operate. We're all conditioned to do that and to serve whiteness and to serve white people and white comfort and I again also expressly talk about this in the book, but the white gaze that Toni Morrison, you know, so aptly and often spoke of which I'm so appreciative because you know being in the author's shoes at this point and being able to be really cognizant of that and knowing that I was still doing it, right? Like, we don't live outside of these systems of harm just cuz we're trying to address them. We all live within them. 

A-lan: Yeah. 

Rachel: But at least trying to illuminate it for myself was incredibly helpful, but it very quickly became clear to me that I needed to write this book to white women plus very specifically to cis white women because they have caused me the most harm personally and professionally in my life and you know many other Black women, plus folks, specifically anti-racist racial justice educators and activists feel similarly have had similar experiences. 

A-lan: Raising my hand here. 

Rachel: Yeah. Thank you. And we don't talk about that enough, you know, and the reason why it's so important for me, especially in this moment when we continue to focus on one white man, Trump. We continue to focus on the white men, and masculine folks who stormed the capital when there were also women there, but we don't talk about the women. We don't talk about the women who raised those men. We don't talk about the women who are related to those men, who are you know in relationships with those men, we don't talk about women's roles. And that's part of how white supremacy works because under Eurocentric white supremacist standards of femininity, women are innocent, they're meek, they’re thin, they don't challenge anything right? And so white women, especially cis white women, very much like perpetuate that because that's the status quo, whether they're aware of it or not and often they're absolutely not.  

But you know, we've seen enough Karens. And again we can joke about the Karens, but that is an act of violence. When you are calling the cops in on a child at a grocery store, or who’s selling water outside in the summertime, or calling the cops on a man who’s bird watching in Central Park. Those are absolutely acts of violence. You can't remove yourself from acts of harm or violence by calling in a man or masculine person to come do the violence for you and think that you have nothing to do with it. That's absolutely unacceptable. And that's a total lie. That's a myth.  

So, they needed to be called in and really… also like I said this expressly in the book, but I fulsomely understood that more white women would vote for Trump in 2020 than they did in 2016 because you know anyone who's in the space understands whiteness more than white folks can because we have to understand the thing that oppresses us so that we can survive and so I nailed it. I thought that Trump would win because I had no faith, and I was wrong about that, but I was right about more white women voting for him in 2020. That needs to be addressed. Like, that absolutely needs to be addressed. This insidious nature of harm. It's not just you know, white men and masculine folks with cloaks out in the woods. That is not what white supremacy is. It is a system of power, and privilege, and prejudice, and everyone is involved in it and all white people are racist, and perpetuate white supremacy, and benefit from it, and need to address it.  

So that was why I wrote the book to white woman plus, especially cis white woman, but it's absolutely for Black, Indigenous, and women of color and especially queer and trans Black and Indigenous women and femmes. It's for our healing, for our liberation, for our well-being because so few things are because for me when we are talking about justice and liberation and equity we’ll never get there if we're not prioritizing Black and Indigenous women and femmes, especially queer and trans and folks who live at other intersections of oppression. And so, long story short for me to do that, it required me to dig deep into my personal story, which was very, very important for me for this book. I didn't want to write a how to, some folks will say that it is, but it was important to me that this was rooted in storytelling - that's ancestral. Like, that's how we have expressed knowledge. Our ancestors have expressed and passed on knowledge and teachings forever and that's how we really, for me, could humanize all of this and I think it was really important for white folks, and for non-Black folks, and for men, and for straight folks to have an opportunity to witness the narrative of the consequences of harm that they perpetuate.  

And for Black, Indigenous, and women-plus of color to feel affirmed in this work which comes through my storytelling because it's like, oh, you know not just me or I've had a similar experience. I can hear myself in that or feel affirmed in that. And I did my best to make sure that, you know, anyone picks up this book and it applies to them. I did my best not to have like this is for white people, this is for other people like it's for everybody. We all have work we need to do especially those who have the most power and privilege.  

A-lan: No, I appreciate that so much and what you described was very much my feeling reading the book. I felt very much akin to you and I think I've even talked about this before, you know. Just I could feel in your stories myself, my own frustration I could feel in the educating work that you were doing in service of people of color. But centering, not centering because that's what I don't want to conflate that word, but definitely calling in white women, I could feel the exhausted in that, you know? The like when you said and I fundamentally believe that if it were about education, if it were fundamentally about like know better, do better than we would be not in this place that we’re in today because we have when you say we've been talking about this for a long time. Literally, that is the we are in the same lineage of slave narratives of Black people describing the horrors of the violences that were happening to them daily. And it's, it is the same. The racial justice is on that same spectrum and that same narrative and so I don't believe that education is enough, but we do need the education to kind of move us forward, but it becomes as a connected to white supremacy in the fact that we just never are able to move out of that first moment of education, right?  

Rachel: Yes. Yes. Yes. 

A-lan: We're just recycling the same information in new ways.  

Rachel: Yes. Yes. Yes. 

A-lan: How many poems can we write about how you're hurting us? [laughs] 

Rachel: Yes. 

A-lan: You know, and I just want to say to the audience that any time we laugh, it's a laugh to keep from crying in some ways, you know? And so, don’t get that mistaken. 

[Both laugh] 

Rachel: The same as a single tear. Yeah. 
 

A-lan: Yeah. And, you know, I fundamentally believe that we need each other to survive.  

Rachel: Absolutely. 

A-lan: I believe that you have that same point of view. 

Rachel: Yes. 

A-lan: But at what point do we redirect our resources as people of color away from education and into something else, you know it's that age-old integration versus or you know in conversation with separatism kind of like, you know, just shifting, and redirecting our… but I'm just curious about your thoughts on that.  

Rachel: Yes. So, I think I was, I think I expressly say this in the book, and if not… 

A-lan: Yeah. 

Rachel: I mean, I’ll always say it, but I never want to write another book to white people again. This is it. This is the gift you get, and I'm done. I think this is all I have to say. I don’t have anything else to say directly to you because to me this piece is education for sure, but more importantly or I guess more importantly and the piece that I am hoping to really leave with folks is that the education needs to be of your own device, it needs to be of your own making. It’s internal work that needs to happen. It's trauma work. It's healing work. It’s grief work.  

And so, I've given an opportunity and cultivated some space and opened some doorways for white folks to do that work so that they can feel empowered to tear down the systems of harm that they have created, and perpetuate, and benefit from and there's nothing else I can really do like, I'm not gonna hold your hand. You don't need your hand held, you know? Y'all get yourselves together on every other front. When it comes to climate change, or veganism, or whatever. When it comes to race, you’re like I don't know. That's a lie. That's a defense mechanism that you've put in place for yourself, so you don't have to do anything, and it's not real. So, you need to be empowered to take this upon yourself and make change. I talk about this in the book but like, I mean that in a very specific way. I'm not empowering white people to go take up anti-racist education because that's white supremacy at work in my opinion. That's not work for them to do. But they're like dancers to Black and Indigenous folks’ choreography. 

A-lan: Choreography. That’s beautiful. 

Rachel: Like I said, we know this better than anyone could and so we will be the ones who lead the way, have been, will continue to be the ones who lead the way in how to dismantle it, but we can't be the mules in that work. That's for white people to actually be on the ground making the change. We can't dismantle a system we didn't create. It's not possible for us to, but we absolutely should lead the charge in terms of giving you guideposts, but that doesn't mean that we hold your hand and that's you know, that's what we've been at. We continue to and that's why I didn't want to write to a bunch of white people. I was like, I'm just feeding into that. I'm doing the same thing. But it felt important to me. I felt like I had something different enough to say to you know, allow folks to enter into something new so that they could do it on their own for themselves. And then the rest of the work that I would want to be dedicating myself to is Black liberation, and Black healing but I couldn't get there unless I left this with white folks to be able to take up, right? And that's an invitation. Take it or leave it. I can't make you do anything. I sure hope you'll take it and so then I can be over here focusing on the healing of Black, Indigenous, and women-plus of color, but you know as a queer multiracial Black person for me it's most important to be focusing on Black liberation. And when Black people are free, we're all free so I do that for all of us. 

A-lan: We’re all free. Say it again.  

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. 

A-lan: But again, I’m gonna come back to that word generosity so much because I think you do. You don't you, in the book you are so generous you don't just tell us the problem, but you really map out some solutions. So, to that question of what is the role of white women, page 207. That starting there is a great space. You really do like just lay it all out for us. And I think that that's you know, just I thank you for that. I think that's a part of the power of this work that you've provided for us. 

Rachel: Thank you. It comes from years of harm at the hands of white woman. [laughs] 

A-lan: Yeah. Yeah.  

Rachel: Again, I’m laughing so I don’t cry.  

A-lan: Yeah. Absolutely, and I think one of the other innovations of this book is connecting us back to our spiritual power, spiritual activism is a term that you invoke throughout the book. And it's not a new term. It comes with a whole legacy and host of Black feminist writers and writers of color. And you know, it is a genre of its own, a space of its own but could you for us just explain spiritual activism and the work it has in relationship to this dismantling of white supremacy, but also the upholding of racial justice? How do those two work together?  

Rachel: Yes, I'm going to read the definition from my glossary of spiritual activism because I change it all the time. So, I won't change here. “Daily active ongoing anti-oppressive thought, speech, and actions informed by a connection with a secular, or non-secular spiritual power. Begin through deep inner work which can be supported by culturally informed and culturally appreciative spiritual practices such as meditation, breathwork, energy, healing, and yoga.”  

So, for me, it was really important again, if we're doing this work from the inside out to ground that work in something that connects us to ourselves and to each other. I don't think that you can be an activist without being guided by something bigger than yourself and the fact that we are all interconnected and the fact that we are all involved in this, right? Like we're all in this. So, my oppression is your oppression. That doesn't mean our oppression is the same and that doesn't mean that I'm not an oppressor but having an understanding of the ways in which we are implicated and perpetuate harm is important. So, we're not othering ourselves in our activism because then we're just perpetuating more harm. And then I think it's really important when we talk about spirituality, and when we call ourselves spiritual people to have an understanding of like what that really means and if you are a spiritual person to me again, irrespective of what that looks like for you whether that's you know, an organized faith or not, and for me it's not. If you are a spiritual person, to me that's rooted in again this interconnectedness it’s something bigger than us but also all of us are a part of. And I don't know how you can have that as a belief and not be active. Actively working every single day to dismantle systems of oppression and harm because any system of harm that harms anybody harms me. 

A-lan: Harms you. Yeah.  

Rachel: Harm anywhere, right? Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. So those pieces were really, really important and really the grounding and all of the work that I do. It was also, you know, when I started this work out, it was just like my calling and it's what I do, you know, like I felt very just called on as a spiritual person and you know an activist to be clear about how it is I do this work. And why I this work. And also, how I survive this work. Like really spiritual activism came about as a means for me to, to survive. Like, I don't know if I would still be here, I talk about this in the book, without that that rootedness, that grounding that kept that the spiritual tools that I have in my toolbelt to support me, move through all of this harm, and grief, and trauma. 

A-lan: The literal tools of the tool chest that are both ritual and that they’re every day but that they are fortifying and the act of the doing of the thing so, I hear you on that. 

Rachel: Yes, and I just think it's so incredibly hard to do this work in any sustainable way. ou know, we see activists burnout or literally die frequently. 

A-lan: Erica Gardner you mentioned.  

Rachel: Yes, absolutely. 

A-lan: When Erica Gardner passed, I just like, lost it. Because I could, as many of us could clearly see, that line of the stress and trauma of what she went through with her father.  

Rachel: Yes. 

A-lan: Being murdered at the hands of police and her fighting for his justice.  

Rachel: Yes. 

A-lan: Cost her her life.  

Rachel: Yes. 

A-lan: And she was young. What was she 27?  

Rachel: 27. Yes. 27. Kalief Browder’s Mother’s the same. Fighting for you know, justice for her son who ultimately came out and died by suicide for a crime he didn't ever commit, and she was I think like 64 which is still not old, you know. 

A-lan: In this day and age not old. 

Rachel: Literally killing us. So, with or without spirituality, you know, these are the massive systems of harm that that we're up against and I'm in no way shape or form saying we can like meditate or pray our way outside of those systems. We can't. That's spiritual bypassing, which I also talked about in the book, which is a form of violence. But how can we help ourselves sustain ourselves in this work, in this life so that we can show up for ourselves and for the collective. And this is not just work that's for the oppressed, right? This is for oppressors also because all of this work is grief work, and trauma work, and healing work. If you are an oppressor, and most of us are somewhere on the spectrum, have some level of power and power and privilege, right? So, I'm cis. I’m a cis woman. I'm light skin. I'm financially secure. I'm highly educated. I'm in Canada. Like I have a lot of privileges… and I'm non-disabled. Like I can go on and on and on and so I cause a lot of harm. I have to address that, I have to come to terms with that. I have to have an understanding of that. Most of it's unintentional as I talk about in the book it doesn't matter what your intention is. It matters what your impact is. 

A-lan: FYI. F- your intentions. 

Rachel: FYI. Yeah, and feel your impact and if we don't have something to root us in our ability to feel the full spectrum of our human emotions, we can't do this work.  

A-lan: Yeah. 

Rachel: We cannot do this work. It is not possible, because it requires us to fulsomely show up. It requires us to be able to have capacity to feel, so that we can reveal, so that we can heal. All of those things are necessary, and this is deep. This is deep. It’s why white people will lose their whole mind when you even say the word racism, right? They’ll go, but I'm not racist. Then why are you losing your whole mind if you're not racist? Because you know you are.  

A-lan: What is that?  

Rachel: And you know your ancestors were. And you know that you have the power and privilege that you have on some level, you know, the power and privilege that you have today is a result of these systems of harm, you know you benefit and you know you perpetuate that, you know when people say like, oh, I don't believe in that or that's not real. I’m like cool. Well, would you want to trade places with a Black person for a week? And they're like, oh, you know. Would you want to drive down the street and be stopped by a cop as a Black person? No, you wouldn't. Would you want to have to go apply for jobs as a Black person with a Black name? No, you wouldn't, and so you do know. Do not tell me you don't know. It's 2021. Also, if you don't know, with the access to technology that we have, like on some level.  

So, we just need to bring the heart, you know, we need to bring the heart and the head together. We need to do work that's not just from the neck up. It needs to be heart-centered. It needs to be embodied, because this is trauma work. This is healing work and it's for everybody. But to be an oppressor, to be in a dominant group, and to believe other people are less than you in some way which is the status quo. You can say whatever you want about that. Like, I don't believe. On some level you do. That requires you to disconnect your head from your heart. That requires you to cut yourself off from your own humanity in some degree, right? And so, there's so much healing that needs to happen. There’s so much grief work that needs to happen, you know the ancestral medicine that we will get to. White women who have shared with me to date are like, that was the hardest. That was so hard, you know that the soul core exercise I dislike the most and I'm like, that would probably be really hard for you. 

A-lan: Yeah.  

Rachel: I bet I bet to tune into your ancestry. Like I said, we're not talking about four years of history, we’re talking about 400 years of history. So really tapping into what that means. 

A-lan: Yeah, I appreciate you talking about your ancestor work because that was going to be kind of where I wanted us to go next but just that really tapping in, you know. Tapping in, and often it's like but I haven't done anything in the present, but you remind us that the present, the past is the present as I mean, you know?  

Rachel: Yes. 

A-lan: I was reminded as you speak that today is Audre Lorde's birthday.  

Rachel: Yes, and Toni Morrison. 

A-lan: And Toni Morrison. 

Rachel: Yes. 

A-lan: And so perfect. We've invoked both of our ancestors in this space tonight. And one of the things that I love that Audre Lorde reminds us of is that she says “the white father tells us I think therefore I am but the Black mother in all of us tells us I feel therefore I can be free”. And I’ll stop right there. 

Rachel: I was going to put that quote in the book! 

A-lan: I pulled it. [laughs] But I think I mean I think you just spoke to that so deeply, you said we need to reconnect our minds with our bodies, our spirits with our sense of feeling and connection and it really is through the feeling that we are able to reach something on the other side of the messiness in the hurt, you know, and the discomfort. 

Rachel: Yes, and having an understanding that like out our discomfort is a doorway, right? And so, we especially those of us with the most power and privilege have felt entitled to comfort. We feel like comfort is our birthright, and the world operates for folks who have the most power and privilege to have comfort and it is often, you know, their birthright that as a collective we have agreed to knowingly and unknowingly often unknowingly. And so, this work is also just a reminder that like that's not real, and it's a function of white supremacy that we believe that discomfort is negative or that we should be comfortable, because often our comfort especially those of the most power and privilege, so like racially we’ll talk about white folks, like your comfort often comes at the detriment and expense of those who've been made most marginalized. 

A-lan: And not just the discomfort of those folks. Like the actual violence and lives of those folks. You know, it's not like, comfort for discomfort it's like comfort for violence. Again, laughter to keep from crying, but it's… 

Rachel: Yes. Yes. Yes, and I'm immediately thinking about what's going on in the United States right now with… 

A-lan: In Texas, right? 

Rachel: Right, right. Comfort. Comfort for death. Yes. 

A-lan: Yeah, absolutely and I can't even. I wanted us to go there but now that we have it like shakes me to my core to where I can't even. We’re talking about Texas here of course and talking about you know, I mean and that's like both the macro of our systems failing and the hoarding of the resources, but also the bigger thing around just true climate catastrophe.  

Rachel: Yes. Yes. 

A-lan: That’ll, you know, we're kind of talking about but also, you know, so. 

Rachel: But not, and not having understanding of that linkage between climate justice and racial justice right biggest single threat facing all of us. And so, it's the biggest single threat facing Black, Indigenous, and people of color. We already are being disproportionately harmed by climate change and so this is just another example. 

A-lan: And hotels going for $900 a night. 

Rachel: No, I haven't seen that. Oh lord, of course, of course. 

A-lan: Okay, so, so, just the way that capitalism is very quick to jump in on this, right and the players are very quick to jump in on this so again the ways that overlapping systems of oppression are ripe and ready to continue to exploit and… So anyways, let's move. [both laugh] Let's shake and move and continue to move forward in the conversation here. I mean, you know we’re gonna evoke Audre Lorde and all of the Black feminist ancestors to move forward. Because this… it shakes me to the bone. I’m sure it does you too.  

Rachel: Oh, yes. I'm reading Octavia Butler's Parables of the Sower right now. So many people have been like, “how are you reading that right now?”  

A-lan: It’s not exactly escapism. 

Rachel: Too close to home! Too close to home [both laugh]. This is part of my trauma response, is that I feel most comfortable with trauma. I'm like, “this is fantastic!” But I will say it feels like I read like 200 pages in like three days, which I also wouldn't really suggest doing especially in the times we’re in but with everything going on, with this pandemic and with Texas and reading this book it just like yeah, it has felt very much like those days are here. Those days are upon us. We are not far off from those absolute... the crumbling of systems because people are so committed to systems of harm and by people, I mean, like people who have most pain privilege and probably white people.  

A-lan: Yeah, no, absolutely. And of course, I would be remiss to not mention, you know any chance I get, 1619 it started with the Point called Comfort, you know, like the poetics of that statement. Of course, we’re referring to Point Comfort being the space, the first space where enslaved Africans were brought to the United States. That is like the first point of entry and point of departure for the United States. So again, the poetics are deep. And we've been holding on to that comfort ever since, so absolutely time to feel some other things besides that. 

I want to get this to a quote from your chapter “Soul Care and Self-Care.” I think it might be a nice segue way into talking about that as we move away, you know, move deeper into spiritual activism, what it is, but also what it is not and so you say prioritizing ourselves is not the problem, but the issues arise when our self-care is not about care at all. But indulgence that causes harm. It is the actions or inactions to undertake in order to best care for our soul and highest selves as opposed to our ego and skin regime. And kind of the differences between those two systems of approaching the work. 

Rachel: Yeah, so part of spiritual activism, part of this work of involving ourselves in dismantling systems of harm from the inside out requires us to like I said, like have the tolerance to be able to do that. We can't just jump into trauma work feeling like ready to unearth all of this pain, right? We need to create containers for ourselves so that we can have capacity to do that work. Otherwise, we're setting ourselves up to fail which we do all the time and cause ourselves and others more harm, by not treating this work as the sacred work that it is and these issues as the sacred issues that they are.  

So, in that context I talk about soul care versus self-care because self-care has been whitewashed, you know, and it bothers me to even have to make this distinction because self-care should just be self-care. Self-care, you know is a notion that was rooted in queer Black women and fem circles, you know and has been has become like a bubble bath and getting your nails did and so I wanted to differentiate between what we know as self-care in this white supremacist capitalist world, and the work that is tending to our heart space to our souls so that we are filling up our ourselves. We are showering ourselves with wise compassion, so that we can have the tolerance to really face our shadows and to do the tough work and to be able to show up for the collective. And so, there aren't like specifics, you know, there isn't a specific difference, like sometimes having a bubble bath and getting your nails done can be an act of soul care. That can be a nourishing thing that you undertake for yourself, especially when you are someone who has been oppressed and marginalized and so caring for yourself is an act of resistance in a world that tells us that we should not, that we're not worthy of that care. So, it really does depend on your identity for sure and also your intention around that.  

I see a lot of cis-white women using self-care terminology around like I said self-indulgence or really like harm like I say this in the book, like oh, well, I'm not watching the news right now for my self-care and that’s something I'm sure folks are saying in this moment as we have a global pandemic that’s disproportionately murdering Black and Indigenous folks and this double whammy of a massive winter storm that's taking out areas of America that are not able to cope with this temperature difference and it is disproportionately impacting Black, Indigenous, and LatinX folks of all races. So yeah, it's harrowing, you know, like the things we're hearing about juvenile detention centers without running water or like just absolutely atrocious stuff. So that temptation is high to tune out and say it's an act of self-care. But again, depending on your identity like is that an act of self-care or is that just you not wanting to face discomfort and is your not wanting to face discomfort... for me when I hear that from people who have the most power and privilege, it's like but what are you doing to face your discomfort? And what are you doing about the fact that you belong and perpetuate and benefit from these systems that are causing harm? 

It's not and I'm not saying that again, it's not Black or white. All of these things are gray. But to just have that under the guise of self-care when really, it's like it's denial or it's ignorance or it's choosing your own comfort against the realities of those who've been made marginalized. That's violence. That’s not self-care. So, it was really important to me to have that conversation and also have that conversation, you know rooted in the semblance of an understanding of compassion; because that piece is really, really, really important.  

Like we are all conditioned under these systems of harm and oppression. We are all living under systems of white supremacist, ablest, capitalist, hetero-patriarchal life. So, like we've been raised in it, our ancestors were raised in it, right like again and again, it's not four years. It's 400. So, this is a real peeling back of like everything that we... many folks… especially folks of the most power and privilege have ever known. This is unplugging from The Matrix. This is taking rose-colored glasses off. So, everything will change. When you really authentically commit to racial justice everything changes not just for the bad, also for the good, but yeah, this piece of being able to nourish ourselves as we do that because that's not a small undertaking to start to partake in like living completely different. Seeing yourself completely differently. Seeing the world differently and once you begin to really see things and these structures of harm, you can't unsee it. And so, you really need to be caring for ourselves so that we can withstand it because you know, I believe we're all souls having a human experience but while we're having this human experience, it's hard. It's hard down here. You know, did you see... I'm going to forget her name... phenomenal singer who had that little meme Instagram song that went viral, “Earth is a Ghetto.” I want to leave like I could not relate more. I still sing it every day. Like just can I check out? This is a lot. This is too much at times and so I absolutely believe we’re here by choice. I believe it absolutely. We’re all here for a very important reason and that's why we need to like get our ish together to be doing the inner work that's required so that we can come here and fulfill our purpose, our destiny as individuals and as a collective, but it's hard! It’s hard as hell. 

A-lan: Yeah. I mean of course when you brought that up, I had to think of Space is the Place Sun-ra and like the deep legacies of maybe Earth isn't it you know? But then also the deep, you know our own commitment to this place, you know and our own responsibility to this land and to the folks that are a part of this land with us. I was just thinking, I just lost my... that's okay. [laughs] I'm gonna go into just another conversation. [Rachel: It will come] It will come but just yeah, I like to say I hear you on that. But just what are some of the tools that you've been using as you said to kind of fortify, to keep you during this time. I know there's no specifics and you know, the things that work for you may not work for everybody. But what are some of the things that have been keeping you in this moment? 

Rachel: Meditation is always a grounding force for me, and I think meditation can look very different. I don’t think it necessarily needs to be like, you know sitting with yourself in silence or even listening to a guided meditation. I think finding the things that support with your mindfulness and being present especially in these pandemic streets when we are like... we have... like everything blurs together. All of our days are the same, you know, like Tuesday and Saturday are similar because like a lot of us are inside, if we have the privilege of being able to stay home.  

So, and if not, it probably still feels like Groundhog Day, but in this weird dystopian universe, so being able to be present in showing up so that can look like cooking for me sometimes. Something that would like... I'm not a baker but I started baking, it's something that I can like create but not bread. I don't know who has time to… but like the bread thing is wild to me but you know like a cookie, but that's an act that I can lose myself in. You know, I bought like a $5 watercolor set so I can just like draw some watercolor stuff, like things that allow me to just be in the present moment which is incredibly challenging. I also just did a 40-day sadhana on conquering inner anger. So... and it ends tomorrow, which is wild to me because 40 days went real quick and also not at all.  

So, these are the... you know, so I got up early every single morning in the darkness to have this time to pray, to meditate like for myself, which I find incredibly grounding and important, you know, and trying to find glimmers. Trying to find the things that keep me hopeful, as small as they may be, you know, like plant babies. Nourishment. I have an alter to my ancestors. So, like feeding my ancestors, acknowledging my ancestors, which is also really an act of like recalibrating with resilience because when we think about what our ancestors endured, you know, like this isn't much actually, which is not to downplay the hardness of this time, but just to be like we are resilient people. So yeah.  

Those are the things that really… and trying to be joyful like you know, whether it's like watching an intellectual hamburger as I call it or I don't know who gave me that term but I love it... or like just dancing around my room. One of my favorite days in the last like I don't know how many days... months... two months... was my husband left for a little bit and we both work from home, so like that's a rare moment where like I have space to myself and I had a dance party to like my 90s R&B jams by myself sweating in my sweatpants. And it was the best. It was the best. So those things. 

A-lan: I remember what left but then came back which was when we let go of these systems just the true grief that comes and the grief both on all sides. You know, the grief of letting go of white supremacy for example is a white grief, a Black grief, an Asian grief, an Indigenous grief like it is grief all around and any change brings us back to that place. We have to grieve what has been gone, you know. Grieve what is going, grieve… 

Rachel: Even when it's a positive shift, right? [both talking over each other]. Which this is… 

A-lan: You talk about this right? 

Rachel: Yes. 

A-lan: I felt like you talk about this. You talked about this very deeply in the book and it just reminded me of that because grief has never been marketed as fun, you know, like that is like the one thing that hasn't been sold to us positively and so, how can we expect to shift everything like you said shift everything that we've ever known and not feel the messiness of that connection. 

Rachel: I think what's poignant too is that part of what the pandemic has done is: (A) bring to light what grief is and what it looks like and the fact that we are all experiencing it, which I've been talking about for years like individually and collectively right and I can't be like a queer Black multiracial woman on this planet and not be in grief, and now I'm going to lose my train of thought. 

A-lan: It’s okay. Maybe grief wants to let us go. 

Rachel: Yeah, grief is a little bit like that.  

A-lan: I mean and grief too, you actually bring up this point when we talk about burnout, which is maybe not where I want to go after we could agree like burnout, but I think important to say, I mean, I feel personally like when I got to that point in the book there were several points, but when I got to that point in the book, I was like a mirror was placed up to me that I needed so much because I had been feeling like the anxiety of going into work and the burden of you know, being asked to do so much but being given so little and also being side-eyed every you know, every moment of every day and just when you named that as like the stepping stones towards burn out or even in fact like the window to understanding that maybe where one might be at, you know, it was like really healing for me actually to be affirmed in not only like, you know, my magic and greatness but also like my burn out and like my grief. Which you say is very tied to that and so I just wanted to, you know, as we talk about all these things, I just wanted to maybe if this is a way of affirming those out in the audience tonight like that you know freedom is a constant struggle as Angela Davis reminds us, but burnout is also real. [laughs] And like it’s been a year, two years of like 400 years of like continual attack and but yes, the resilience but also like what are those tools for supporting ourselves through burnout? 

Rachel: Yeah, and how do we have resilience in a way that's actually nourishing and about like rooted in community care and not resilience that's rooted in anti-Blackness, you know? Not resilience that's just like oh, well, I'm so strong and my people have endured all this and so surely, I can, I must, you know, [A-Ian: I’m gonna keep goin…] yeah… Or like, it is what it is. And like yeah and it's oppressive and harmful and so we... you know, we don't want to be permitting that or just allowing it because it is like. Like it is we need to acknowledge that, and I talked about that in the book. Like it's important for us to have an understanding of what is and to accept what is and do better, so we can change the state of what is. I think a lot of people get really stuck in the what is especially right now like with everything going on and it's overwhelming and they don't know where to go.  

Where do you start? And it's like, well you start with you. You start with you. Start with the thing you have the most control over and you make sure that that ripples out, right, and by virtue of the interconnectedness of who we are and when we really are doing this work from the inside out. Like I said everything changes for you. So, it's not like you're just over in a corner meditating on a rock pretending like that's going to save the world. It’s not. I mean your work changes, how you show up changes, what you allow in your life changes, your boundaries change, your relationship to yourself and everything else shifts. And therefore, it does have a collective external impact. It has to. So yeah, it's important for us to acknowledge the overwhelm, to acknowledge the grief because that's real, to not shame ourselves for that and still know that work needs to be done. Especially those who have the most power and privilege. I don't have time for you to be stuck in your shame and grief and guilt like we don't. We’re so passed that, it's 2021. Look where we're at like [claps twice quickly] get to work. 

A-lan: Yeah, when I began the book and when I began this conversation, I was like do better white women, you know, but as I'm... as we're moving through this conversation and you know, as I'm reminded as we talked about, you know burnout, grief… it really is all of us. Like we all have our work to do. 

Rachel: Yeah absolutely. Of course. Me included. Me included. For sure. For sure.  

A-lan: Unpacking internalized racial oppression, you know. Unpacking our own ways that we become both the blade, you know to organs, you know, we both have the ability to cause harm but to also receive harm and so... and I think that that's the kind of also really brilliance of the work too is like it's very easy to point the finger and it’s very hard to like have that mirror back to you. And so, I appreciate that constant bringing us into that play, that dance, right, of both calling in but also looking at self. So. 

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, I just don't know how we get anywhere without doing both right and I absolutely believe in call-ins and call-outs as I talk about but like that doesn't give us license either. You know people have a whole tone policing about that either/or but that doesn't mean it gives you license to cause harm or be violent. 

A-lan: Yeah. You say call out or call in. Call it what you want. Just don't call the cops. Call out or call in. Call it what you want. Just don't call the cops. [both laugh]. And I love that. I was just taking down all these little notes. I mean so many nuggets. But I just laughed out loud when I heard that because it’s both like [laughs]. We get so hung up on language, which we should, you know language does world-make so we absolutely should but also, it's just like... just it's harm reduction. You know, that's… at the end of the day it's harm reduction, you know, so I love that and I love that brilliant shout out to prison abolition, which is a huge moment and movement and opportunity for us because if we look at prison abolition, I'm not gonna go I don't want it to go too deep here because we're almost at the end of our time and that in itself could be a whole other conversation, but at the root of abolition or really even defunding the police and that movement is a recognition of resource hoarding, you know, like when you look at the ridiculous bound... like the ridiculous disparity within these municipal budgets and it's like billions to like pennies. I mean and we know that resource hoarding is like the root of white supremacy, of capitalism, of all these oppressive systems. [Rachel: Yes] And of course, there’s so many other lanes and avenues we could interpret this movement for defunding the police, but for me that's coming up so much of like it is just about research, you know, just about the hoarding of resources and what happened. What are the possibilities when we let that go like you said you know.  

Rachel: And like how traumatized are you that you feel that you have to hoard all of those resources to the point where you are letting people starve and die and like you are going to Jeff Bezos and make like however many millions of dollars in a global pandemic at the literal expense of Black, Indigenous and people of color for what? You are the… who are the employers that make your whole company work, like you are deeply 

A-lan: [overlapping] who are at the frontlines yeah 

Rachel: deeply traumatized. That is... you have so much healing work to do and I'm not saying that in any sort of like bypass like, “oh he's just not healed.” Like you're not healed and you gotta like do some tangible work to stop causing violent extractive, exploitative harm, but I also want to acknowledge like for you to get to that point to think that that is okay, something is not right and I'm not also perpetuating white supremacy by saying that you have a mental health issue, that you have some you know that I'm gonna put ableism in the mix to justify harm. I'm not saying that but I'm saying like that is rooted in deep, deep trauma and that also needs to be addressed for us to actually create change. 

A-lan: I don't want to get into this because we don't have time but I will say, you know, we know that Jeff Bezos did step down [Rachel: Yeah, eye-roll] but it reminds me of what… [both laugh] Yeah, of course... it reminds me of... that's why we can't go into that right? But I mean, but it reminds me at what point do you… Like how do you actually undo the years of harm that you've caused and it's not always about just stopping the machine or getting off of the treadmill. It is like rework, redress. It is reparation. It’s reparative. 

Rachel: mm hmm. It’s reparation. Everything, all sorts, financial and otherwise, yes. 

A-lan: Absolutely, and so with that I think it would be beautiful to end with the aura shielding meditation as we talk about you know all the ways that our responsibility in this work, the ways that we have to do the soul care to protect ourselves in this work and to fortify our resilience and this work as we you know center and uplift Black, Indigenous people of color. As we call in, call out, call whatever, you know our white allies and colleagues and friends. I would love for us to turn to the aura shielding meditation, which is a part of the book for energy sovereignty, and I'd love for you to lead us into that as we go into the end of our conversation and thank you so much Rachel. 

Rachel: Thank you so much A-lan. Okay. This is the spiritual soul care offering from the chapter on magnifying microaggressions, which are not micro. This is the aura shielding meditation for energetic sovereignty. If you find yourself facing harm, which I have renamed microaggressions to harm - heartbreaking acts of racism - formerly known as microaggressions. So, if you find yourself facing harm or other violence, this is a simple meditation that can assist you in getting back into your body and reclaiming your power. Our aura, the energy field surrounding the body may expand to help defend us when we are subject to harm which can then create more holes or tears in our aura field leading to emotional, mental or physical unrest. This exercise promotes energetic sovereignty by calling your power back and releasing unwanted and or harmful energies that may have attached to you.  

Find a quiet space and close or lower your eyes if it feels safe to do so. You can lie down or find any position that feels comfortable for you and your body right now. Connect with your breath and begin to envision and tap into your auric field which extends 6 feet out in all directions around you. Take a moment to notice what your aura feels like. Are there any areas calling for your attention? No need to overthink. Just send your energy where it feels needed. Imagine a healing white light pouring over you and cleansing your entire auric field, filling in any holes or tears. Call your power and energy back across all space and time and release any and all unwanted, lingering, corded or otherwise connected energies. When you feel your aura is restored and repaired, envision guards protecting you and your aura. These may be in the form of shielding light in a color of your choice, trees, or animals.  

I like to envision a ring of my matriarchal ancestors surrounding me and sending me healing love and light with another ring of ancestral warriors guarding me with huge shields. When you're done rub your hands together in front of your heart center, if that's available to you, then place your hands over your heart and feel the loving energy you can create for and give to yourself. Take a deep exhale releasing anything that needs releasing. As always, give thanks to the ancient Indian Elders who cultivated this potent practice of meditation so that you can partake in it today. Open your eyes and journal, sing, dance, rest, cry, scream. Set your boundaries and/or share your truth as feels best for you in a manner that prioritizes the well-being of the most marginalized. If you are able please pay homage to the Indian communities that cultivated this practice for you to enjoy energetically, financially, or otherwise. 

A-lan: Thank you so much Rachel.  

Rachel: Thank you. 

A-lan: You know, I just want to again just thank you so much for the generosity. I'll say that again, because I just think you just gave us so much top to bottom and I hope that you know this conversation and you know, the way that the world turns gives as much back to you as you've given to us. I say that, you know Black woman to Black woman. You know queer woman to queer woman. I just wish you the most abundance and the most care possible and just thank you for tonight. Yeah. 

Rachel: Thank you. I wish all of that right back to you and just appreciate you so much. So, thank you for this. 

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
Podcast production is supervised by Kirstin Van Cleef at CIIS Public Programs. Audio production is supervised by Lyle Barrere at Desired Effect. The CIIS Public Programs team includes Kyle DeMedio, Alex Elliott, Emlyn Guiney, Jason McArthur, and Patty Pforte. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe wherever you find podcasts, visit our website ciis.edu, and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 
 
CIIS Public Programs commits to use our in-person and online platforms to uplift the stories and teachings of Black, Indigenous, and other people of color; those in the LGBTQIA+ community; and all those whose lives emerge from the intersections of multiple identities.  
 
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