CIIS Public Programs Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

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[Cheerful theme music begins] 

This is the CIIS Public Programs Podcast, featuring talks and conversations recorded live by the Public Programs department of California Institute of Integral Studies, a non-profit university located in San Francisco on unceded Ramaytush Ohlone Land. 

Integrative physician and activist Tanmeet Sethi’s work focuses on shifting our nervous system and biochemistry into a form of joy at the cellular level. Dr. Sethi has worked globally and locally on the frontlines with the most marginalized communities, as well as with victims of school shootings, survivors of hurricanes, and citizens impacted by police violence. 

In this episode, Dr. Sethi is joined by licensed marriage and family therapist Anjuli Sherin for a conversation about rediscovering joy and how to reframe joy as an act of resistance to reclaim resilience and sense of purpose as a unique human right. 

This episode was recorded during a live online event on May 2nd, 2023. You can also watch it on the CIIS Public Programs YouTube channel. A transcript is available at ciispod.com. To find out more about CIIS and public programs just like this one, visit our website ciis.edu and connect with us on social media @ciispubprograms. 

[Theme music concludes] 

Anjuli Sherin: Welcome everybody, and welcome Tanmeet. [Tanmeet Sethi: Thank you.] I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. I've spent the past week and a half, obviously immersed in your book. So, I think what I'll just say right from the bat is how much love I feel for you and your family, having read those stories, and how excited I am really to have this conversation, and to bring everybody else along on this ride to how you got to joy is your justice. And before we start, I know that you're going to guide us to get into our hearts and our bodies so maybe we'll just begin there.  

Tanmeet Sethi: Yeah, that sounds good. I'm thrilled to be here with you. Thank you.  

So, we'll just take a minute or so not too long but just a little bit of time to recenter maybe we're all coming from a long day or whatever other things we've been doing so just I want to invite you to come into your body a little bit and if you're able, close your eyes, if that doesn't feel right you could let them have a downward soft gaze and just bring your attention to your breath. Just noticing your breath as it moves in and out. In and out. When we start to pay attention to our breath and deepen it. We're activate actually the longest nerve in our body, the vagus nerve, which comes from the word wandering in Latin. It wanders through our entire body, allowing us to connect with ease, and to just come to this moment.  

And if we also focus on our breath that allows us to make space. Maybe just a little space from what we were doing before and allowing for the space of this conversation now. Bringing that attention to our breath and coming back to our body and the seat beneath us, opening our eyes or raising our gaze slowly. And just allowing us to come back to this space together. Thank you.  

Anjuli: Thank you. Thank you. That's helpful. So, I think where I'd like to start is really that word story, right, because I think what mostly touched me about the book was just how much of your stories were woven in and I feel like it's the most vulnerable place to share and it's also the place where I think it's the easiest place to access learning when it's tied to the humanity of another person, which brings out our own humanity.  

And there's a quote of yours in the prologue, where you say, “everyone alive will endure great pain, multiple times, and usually beyond our control. What we choose to do with that pain is critical. Escape was my first impulse, running away is our most primal survival tactic. But I learned that if instead I choose to walk back towards my pain, something radical, even revolutionary could emerge. Joy.” And I think where I want to start is maybe if you would walk us through that journey, I mean those words really just capture it right like a look of confronting pain, and then walking towards it. And how you walk all the way towards reclaiming your joy, and then birthing joy is my justice. But I think yeah, it’s the best way to kind of bring everybody together is just have you share with us. How did you get here. 

Dr. Sethi: Well, that's a big question, right?  

Anjuli: [laughing] I know, you have an hour now.  

Dr. Sethi: That's the whole book, right? But I think it’s such an important question because really what you're asking is how do we make that journey and how do we open that up for ourselves and I think the first step for anyone is just to know that that step that path is available.  

For me, it was really a question of, as, as you would see if you're reading the book. Even- I've worked with thousands of people across the world and in moments of suffering. But the way I opened this book is really about a moment of my deep suffering, getting a life ending diagnosis for one of my three children, and not knowing if joy could ever be authentically accessible for me. And really walking that path in a deeper, even deeper way with my patients but with myself as well. And really understanding that joy is an innate human right that it comes from the same capacity as our pain. And I didn't understand that before this journey, I, I think I got happiness and joy very confused and I think in the zeitgeist of our language, especially in this mental health conversation we have often in this country. It often gets confused and so I thought well I can never be happy because this is a horrible fate.  

But what I learned was that if I walk towards my pain, I would find something even more profound, which is joy, that deep well of meaning, connection, power, love, and really understand it in a much deeper way. And so, this walk along that path, professionally and personally is what brought me to put this all together in this book that we have that came out today.  

Anjuli: That’s right, happy book birthday, book baby birthday. 

Dr. Sethi: Thank you, thank you!  

Anjuli: Yeah, I mean, you know, like you said, it is the crux of the whole book, and there is so much, even in which is just in your story that I want to kind of get into and unpack, and I mean it was such a privilege to sit for a week and a half and I'm so excited to talk to you about all the questions that come.  

And maybe to just start, you're already pointing towards it but to get everybody on the same page about what is it that you're meaning when you speak to joy. And I want to just give context to everybody about why you and I are in this conversation I mean, I was so excited when CIIS asked me to this interview, and a big part because, you know, to have a peer to talk with about the overlap in our work, where, as two South Asian women, you as physician myself as clinician, and both of us working with marginalized communities, and at the same time also working with the same oppression and stress and trauma and how it lives in our bodies in our own work, and then with clients, the audacity in a way or the revolutionary aspect of going and inside of that, both of our books are going to center joy as the crux.  

Right, and like how rare that is how necessary it is, but also I think just how taboo that is because as you said, the word joy has gotten conflated with an external thing, or a fleeting thing, or a thing that is just paradoxical to suffering, you cannot claim suffering cannot engage with suffering, and at the same time say, oh yes, I have a right to feel joy for the shame and embarrassment that can come up for people. [Dr. Sethi: Yeah.] 

So, that’s why I was really excited about like this is a very important conversation to have and to also have to brown skin women talk about, and the reclamation of joy, but to begin with, what are you meaning because I know we both are meaning something much more expansive than talking about joy and happiness, and a very wide spectrum of emotional access. So, we will say a little bit about that so everybody can kind of follow like, what is that thing called joy that we're talking about, we're talking about. 

Dr. Sethi: Yes, so much in that question. So, what I'm talking about, what I think we both talk about often when we're talking about our work is this concept of joy as being a container as being a way to hold the pain as being a way to connect to meaning. How do we attach meaning to our suffering to our pain. How do we find power in our pain, and we can only find any of that if we sit with our pain and try not to deny it or negate it.  

Right. And so, it's dual sided I think what you brought up is very important which is one is that it can be taboo. For us maybe culturally, especially but for many family cultures or other cultures, it can feel like you're not owning the grief or the loss or owning the sadness if you're joyful. [Anjuli: As though you don't care.] Yeah, like how could you care enough if you're acting like it's okay. And then, which I don't think joy is that's what we're trying to differentiate.  

And the second part is that, honestly, after fighting in justice arenas for 25 years in my career, I will tell you that I had to imbibe this idea that I can't fight suffering for myself or others, if I don't just sit in this pain I can't be joyful. We have time for that. That's not something that we can do we have a fight to fight. Right. And there's a way that now, and what I understand now is that happiness is very binary. It's a construct that is either here or there. I think I actually, I don't know if you've heard this quote, I just heard this two weeks ago from author JD Salinger, had written that happiness is a solid and joy is a liquid. And that felt really true to me that happiness is beautiful I love it. I love feeling happy, but it's either here or here. It isn't fluid like joy. Joy is how you can be so deeply sad about my son in my case, or about your own situation at a funeral for a loved one, but feel such deep love happiness around the laughter of a memory. And at the same moment we can hold that deep understanding that our love is a reflection of our grief, and vice versa. And that is a joy container, much more fluid and flowing in our body, much deeper and more expansive than happiness.  

And so, both are great, but joy allows us more liberation in this context of when we're speaking of people who are suffering in the context of oppression trauma or unchangeable diagnoses, whatever it is it allows us a way to be more expansive, and to gain ease in our body. When we look at the neuroscience that I translate in the book for everyone. It really is looking at how these practices actually allow us some ease and safety, because at some point, all of that oppression trauma or suffering, create 

\]p[o’I; a sense of not being safe. And so, we're giving ourselves that justice back when we do this. So, joy is much more expansive, it also by definition, acknowledges your challenging emotions, because it sits in that same well of meaning and gratitude and love. How do we take what we have and allow it to be bigger. It's really just flowing all of that in a bigger continuum, or as people say rewriting a new story.  

Anjuli: Yeah, and it feels like, um, you know, kind of like, you wouldn't think this, but the new story or joy is the ability to sit inside of contradictions like to be large enough to hold contradictions I know. I know who said this, but I'll often say this to clients that like health like a sign of health is the ability to hold complexity. You have a much more complex organism. And so exactly what you're saying like so much pain I see comes from either/or being locked in this binary right of like, like you said, I'm either allowed to be sad or happy. And the amount of pain that comes from having to negate parts of ourselves, instead of the joy that comes when I speak about joy often also talk about is akin to aliveness, which is how much more alive can be. And that means that how much more access can I have to the whole spectrum of my existence and my emotions right and it's from there that we are whole as beings and we will feel free, even inside of the thing.  

Dr. Sethi: Yes, and it's exactly what you said joy is much more of a yes and, and less of an either/or right exactly, exactly. Either/or is a very when we are locked in a narrow, narrow angle of suffering, our lens is so acutely narrowed, that it is always either/or either going to be stuck or not. But when we expand it with joy, we expand that lens much bigger like you're describing.  

Anjuli: That’s a really good segue way, because when I was thinking about this conversation and you pointed to it about like joy and like safety. And so, when you talk about this narrowing you know, I thought about like I think the first question people asked when we bring up joy is then, what is the way of me enjoy. And one of the things that's often in the way is something that's actually we're hardwired for which are our survival strategies right. So how do we keep ourselves safe, fight, flight, freeze, associated peace and in the book, you talk about him in these first quotes so avoidance as a survival strategy. And then I know you've also mentioned hyper vigilance and survival strategy. And I think it's such an important discussion to normalize and go so we all have this, it all serves a purpose. And then there's that moment where trauma or stress or oppression or is just too overwhelming makes us stuck in a survival strategy where we no longer have choice around it, I just am hyper vigilant all the time instead of vigilant, where it's necessary, where I am fleeing pain, even when it actually is time now to sit and face. And I wonder if you'll talk a bit about people about how did you end up working and continue to work with either hyper vigilance or avoidance or how does one work to honor the survival strategy but also move beyond and have more choice, so that you can access joy.  

Dr. Sethi: Right. Right. And I think this is very important that you're talking about how we make space for that and how we become less vigilant in a moment, even when we are vigilant in the larger landscape, right,  

Anjuli: And you can't change your hardwiring,  I mean you are wired for this, there is a reason, serves a purpose. And then what do we do with that.  

Dr. Sethi: Yeah. And it serves a big purpose it's a messenger for real danger, right, often for many situations. We are hardwired for that that is why we have survived, that is thankfully how we are here because our ancestors were hardwired that way. And we. I have gratitude for that hardwiring and a gratitude for it in myself, you know, to have that. But, as you said, it does not serve us when it is chronically present.  

And so, the question is, for me, on a day let's put it really practical, let's, let's bring it down the practical for people is that if I am feeling in fear, for instance stuck in vigilance about the future. I'll just use my son since you brought him up about his diagnosis and his fate and how things are getting harder. If I feel stuck in fear, I can feel very anxious. I can feel very constricted in my body. And it's not, it's an unsettling feeling right. None of that is actually happening right now. But I know it's going to happen. So how do I give myself a moment of ease or expansion amidst that fear. And that could be with, for instance, the breath that we tried right at the beginning right, maybe I just need to give my nervous system, a sense of you are safe right now, in this moment, even if the bigger moments feel very scary. Maybe it's a moment of touch from myself some safe touch, or from a partner or a loved one, a hug, I mean these things are not really, they actually create neurochemical cascades that create an upward spiral of ease and expansion in our body, they tell our nervous system and our brain and our threat centers, you can stand down, you can take a moment to stand down, because it's kind of in our, in our vernacular we say I just need a break. I need a moment, I need to recenter, and actually we can do that in the midst of moments, in the midst of caregiving, in the midst of, you know, I very recently in a few months ago had a 12 hour stint in the ER with my son that was one of the scariest moments that I've had with him and that's saying a lot.  

And I was so scared, I was so scared, and all my grief about the future came up, all my sort of pain from the past resurfaced, you know, all of it comes up in that moment. And I did a lot of breath. I did a lot of self-compassion. And I did a lot of trying to say, what is here now. How can I sit here now and keep turning myself toward that. Now there's very practical ways in the book of doing that but I'm just giving an example of how in the moment, I have to return to them all over and over, and they remind me, and they bring me back to that expansiveness.  

Anjuli: Yeah, and like it's, it's a practice, right it's a practice of commitment of noticing of knowing yourself, of actually offering compassion or even taking the wisdom of like, there's a reason why that happened in that moment. And it's a cascade of like, you're also physically tired and there's emotional reasons and you're kind of protect yourself and your mind is trying to probably take care of him and go let me predict. And that knowledge of and then the way to use or actually attend to all of that information is to then get back into safety and connection, that part of your nervous system that's rest and digest. [Dr. Sethi: Right.] And that comes from the breath that comes from a human that comes from going. Now that the survival strategy has kicked in. How do I respond to myself to bring myself to a place from which I can be responsive, which I was thinking about that when you said, what place, you didn't quite say it this way but what place does joy have in the struggle for justice and thinking that it was a frivolous sideline as opposed to, oh no no no being able to come back into safety and connection in your body, even when conditions are not safe outside is the place to respond from, you're doing it so that you can engage for in a much more sustainable way in a much more, even if not, possibly hopeful but also just like creative way all those things that come back online, just through our breath just to finding safety inside.  

Dr. Sethi: Yeah. And actually, to understand that, you know, two things are very big about that one is that we actually can't have clarity to move forward and to make change. Actually, neuroscience shows that we can't be in our executive functioning centers, if we're in our threat centers. So, the more we stay there, the less we can affect change to not be there more right? And the second part of that, that is that what I came to understand this idea of why joy is so crucial in the fight for justice is that I understand now in a much deeper level that every system of oppression, every trauma, and even every unchangeable piece of suffering in our lives, does one common thing. It strips us of our power and makes us feel powerless. And we then get stripped of our humanity of our belief in ourselves that we can thrive in our worthiness at a fundamental level. So, actually, when I, or anyone. But I'm just speaking for myself come back to this practice, what I'm doing is reminding myself, I have the power in any moment to choose something for myself. And in that moment, I can choose that power, and that power can give me clarity can give me safety and best justice in my body, and that the way my body translates this life is more important than the way I think myself out of it.  

Anjuli: It’s a good segue way into. Yeah, I mean yes to everything you said and like, I think, in the past three years everything has come down so hard on so many of us right and like I think it's been a time like we're really has hit at a max for so many people and one of the places that we go, like you said is like normally the powerlessness, maybe follow it, it's a place you talk about in your book of why bother, which I thought was such an important chapter. And again, it's another one of those taboos that we don't really talk about, like how we all, if you live a long enough life enough life happens to you, which it will. And it's been a really important one to us these past three years that I don't know anybody who's not hit the why bother. What's the point. Why do I want to be here, why should I engage anymore.  

And when we hit that resignation and helplessness and I'm also going to say like, I mean that's the dorsal part of our nervous system. That's the part that's also I'm all alone, which is the tragedy right because actually, we're not alone in that like we all share that as human beings and you yet when we're in there, it feels like it's just us. I wondered if you could talk a little bit about like, yeah, what, what do you do there. And I don't necessarily just mean the practices, but I think like from the inside right like how, how do you sit with somebody, what did you find useful when you are confronted with especially something that you cannot change. I mean, that was a very important piece of your book, not just things that we can go well but I can do something about it externally, but no I cannot do something about this I'm in this and I'm in why bother. What are the helps inside a why bother. How do we at all make room for something like joy, which can seem like you know outer space at that point. Yeah, just how did you answer the question why bother. And what you'd offer there because I do think in this inquiry, people rub up against that right like joy. I don't even know if I want to get out of bed and this planet that's going towards doom it seems like.  

Right. So, yeah.  

Dr. Sethi: Yeah. This could also be a whole hour.  

Anjuli: I know. Or like go to the meat of it because it's just, yeah, where we are.  

Dr. Sethi: Yeah, I think the first thing is to understand that I did not understand this as well in the beginning and so I offer this to others, is that the first impulse to run away in our human life usually looks a little different than running away from a tiger or, you know, what it looks like is not wanting this to be your life. And so, I really didn't want this. I mean, why, who would want it. But what I didn't know at the time, and I, and I got mentoring to understand was that I had to sit with that pain to then make space for joy that there was no way to say that, oh, this is unchangeable I'll just move through I'll be okay. I'll, you know, fake it til I make it or I'll, is that the first step really to why bother is to actually just sit with what you have in front of you. 

Anjuli: Why I don't want to bother like why I truly don't want to bother anymore.  

Dr. Sethi: Yeah, yeah, like, how do I do that. And once we sit with all of that and turn as you said towards your pain. We don't bother, we get down to the root level of understanding that the point of this part, this is going to get even bigger but the part of being human the point of it is not to do anything or achieve anything, or to make anything happen. This deeply profound act of being human is to feel into being human. And at some point, what's hard is that deep act of being human, and to understanding that our worthiness comes from sitting with what's happening, not trying to fix it. Getting clarity, and then moving forward, I'm not saying we don't make change, especially when change can be made and even in my situation and most situations of various kinds there is not change to be made. I want to be clear about that.  

But what I was told from the doctors when my son was diagnosed of, I'm sorry there's nothing we can do was vastly disappointing, and actually I think harmful. I don't think there's nothing we can do. That made that sort of implied that you're done, there's no value left to his life, there's no value left to you mothering, there's no value to this journey. And truly what they didn't understand, I know I wish they would have understood was, there's always something we can do because we can be with what we're feeling and know that we can bring dignity and power back to our story, always, no matter what. We may think that sounds a little too existential or big or what's the point of that, that's just some abstract idea. And what I will tell you is that over and over again through these stories you'll see but also through the thousands of people I've worked with. It's not abstract. It brings back worthiness and power into our body, where justice has always lived. That's our justice is liberation in our bodies, and actually our bodies were the site of oppression and trauma and suffering to begin with. Right. We all know that trauma lives in our bodies. And what I always tell my patients is, trauma lives in our bodies but that's also where it heals. And there's hope in that. Right?  

Anjuli: Yeah, and I mean, like you said it's not, it's not an idea, because in your book it became very clear, like when you share about you and actually like your whole family have seen like how everybody grew from sitting with and facing into this experience and like a real reshaping of narratives that had been really harming so ableist narratives we talk about that capitalistic narratives right, around. What makes a life worthy. The length of a life making a life worthy versus a life. This is having life itself. How you had to confront that you talk about this so openly and beautifully, and then watching your whole family grow in this narrative, and that it wasn't just even a narrative but it was a timeline, it was an intergenerational narrative so yes one of the stories which, if you're open to sharing here that really touched me was a story of your Auntie Son. Aunt Cookie.  

Right and like, even in it seemed like telling cookie story, just act of sharing that story and naming that story and bringing cookies name forward was a part of healing intergenerational pain and secrecy and trauma inside of your body right and I think the center that is because again it takes it from the abstract like, no, this is a real-life example of how you. Yeah, that was something that yes cannot be changed diagnosis can be changed, but there's a lot to be done in what that life is offering everybody to wake up to. And maybe that is, and you said in the book, a part of the purpose of this or part of the way that you're proposing what's occurring and I'm wondering if you'd be open to sharing a little bit about that story of how just that reclamation around just international trauma that you did, and your family around Cookie’s story if that feels.  

Dr. Sethi: Yeah, I mean, I think for others to know I mean he was disabled like my son and died early, and it wasn't that it was a stigma story but what we don't understand is that these stories live inside us deeper than we think. And I think that's what was really powerful is that it didn't seem like that, not, not important but it didn't seem like that impactful a story for me growing up, it was just a story I heard. At the same time when my own son was faced with a possible similar fate that story resurfaced within me. And I think that, you know, what we can know is if we sit with our pain. In this case the pain of my son's diagnosis, and that loss and grief. We can unravel pain we don't even understand sits within us, right. And we can reclaim stories. We can reclaim a narrative.  

I also am very open about this in the book, and I don't mind sharing, but you know my own narratives from growing up in school through this other story where that, and my culture where that disability was sort of, you know, kind of not worthy. What's the value of this life. And so, all, you know, all this sort of, what's the point. Oh, too bad for you and you know, and I had all that in me, so I'm not speaking from a place of, you know, believe me, of a place of like they thought that. I was thinking that because I had lived through that. And so it took me a lot of unraveling to unravel the story that, you know, Zubin, Zubin deserved to be in a regular classroom that he deserved what other kids have, you know, even though he can't do what they can do he deserves what they get. And so, I did not. I did not realize how deeply woven those narratives were in me, and it was only from sitting with the pain and saying there's something here. If this hurts so much that means there's something here. And so, being alone is something for, you know, it might not sound fun, I'm there with all of you, but- 

Anjuli: Maybe not the most joyful joy practice to turn towards pain, but the most essential.  

Dr. Sethi: It is and that's why I often think, and I really mean this I, I wouldn't wish my pain on any mother, I wouldn't wish anyone to go through this, but I actually honestly and I mean this feel sorry for every mother who can't feel the deep bliss I do. And so, I, I, you have to sort of have a sense of, if you can sit with your pain, it is possible that you can open up this story to feel even more powerful than the one you thought you had. 

Anjuli: Yeah, that's really beautiful. Yeah, I mean, it's a very beautiful powerful embodied message especially for you to hear right because it comes from this lived place that you've gone to the depths of pain and grief and continue to. And because of that it has also carved out caverns inside of you that can also hold that much more bliss. And it sounds like a bliss that comes from undoing the knots in you including the knots of, and I'll just say me too I mean I think again in this planet, who has not been conditioned by ableist narratives and capitalistic narratives right so, but by undoing those knots that actually kept you from the love of a mother for child, let you love your child that in some ways and we all children, all people more to go every life, right, my love is not conditional. And that is one of the most profound messages I see in here that the joy we're talking about is like your soul loves more deeply and truly through this journey because you confronted the knots to it and it would take a tremendous love to do that, instead of going I just want to run away and I, you know,  

Dr. Sethi: Yeah. I want to acknowledge though the privilege in this right, the privilege of. I have a very supportive partner who our love together has only grown in this journey of making sure, we, we commit to what this means for us. And I have very loving and supportive parents who nurture me and support me to, you know, live this story out. And, and so what happens when you don't have that, what happens when you don't have connection or community or resources financial or otherwise. So, I'm not saying it's easy, I think it's harder then right. But what I'm saying is that it's even more critical that I hope that anyone in those situations, also has the power to understand that they have this human right, and this accessibility to joy, and also because if there's one thing I hope people learn in the last three years, it's that none of us are okay unless all of us are okay. And that has been part of my health equity work for decades, but I hope that now I can also not only fight for that in terms of healthcare services and advocacy. I hope that we can understand that the joy and resistance of that joy in all communities is how we will all liberate together. I think that's a really good message here and I also, I'm acknowledging that the path may feel harder and be longer, maybe not for everybody it's different, but I just, I, I have other things that were harder but I do think that all of us have a different path, and I hope that we can all leverage that.  

Anjuli: Absolutely a different path, different access different resources I mean the point of this is to go this is what it takes and then yes to go, and how do we make it possible for each of us to have and one last thing there. And I think that's what's so important to me, you know, it's like the book is joined my justice and the book could also have been a book that like highlighted like had had brief in the title because there's so hand in hand. And I think for so many of us actually right like that thing that we're dealing with often is some kind of grief again in life some kind of loss something that didn't work out something that we're wanting and it's not quite working, and then we fight and we go, and there's actually a study in like what do you do because life will often ask a plan B or C, or offer no plan that you thought, and how do you grow inside of it, and maybe one last piece there that I thought of is, um, one of the things that can often also be a challenge, even when you do have the friends and loved ones and all of that is, um, we are not taught how to be with our own grief, and we're not happy with the grief of others, and you do a really lovely job in here I think talking, talking a bit about that and I wondered if you would share a bit about that if we're learning about what to say and what not to say to yourself into another, because that's another place where joy gets camped down because our grief is being told to be camped down that I am right. And this is like, regardless of if you have a therapist or regardless if you have, you know, access to resources, there will be somebody in your community you are a member of somebody's community and you could have a profound impact by how you respond in that moment or how you don't, which can compound suffering greatly or alleviated. So yeah, just some of those like do's and don'ts I guess about grief.  

Dr. Sethi: I wish everyone had a therapist. But, yes, I think there are a few things in there. One is that as much as I'm saying that it's important that we all sit with our own pain, I would invite and encourage everyone to understand that we dismissing other people's pain is also can be harmful or dampening as you said, what I- there is neuroscience around that I want to offer first which is that if somebody dismisses our pain, it can incite our nervous system in the same way any threat can because we feel not seen we feel made to feel othered. And so, we can feel more incited and more vigilant so we're actually making it harder for other people. I've had a lot of things said to me in the midst of pain that are not helpful. I want to acknowledge that I know they all come from a place of love and people are trying and so I don't feel upset when people say it. But what I do feel is that now, in the beginning what I noticed is that people would say things and if they weren't helpful, I would just notice how my body contracted.  

And, and so here's where herein lies the practice is just noticing. Why do I feel that way. Why does my chest feel tighter. Why does my heart feel heavier. And what I would realize over time is, oh my gosh what they're saying is making me feel really bad about myself and my life. And so now that I'm in a space where I can have more spiritual energy and strength to say something, you know, I try to offer that back to people not in a, in a non-compassionate way but just in a way of you know that's not helpful or. So, when people say, for instance, I can't imagine the pain you're going through. That's, that's a very normal and also none of us should think we understand exactly what anyone's going through. So that's a really nuanced good one.  

Anjuli: It's a tricky one. People will say I also don't want to hear. Oh, I can imagine. Yeah, that situation is tricky, but yes yeah, go on.  

Dr. Sethi: Yes, exactly. And what I say to people is that I invite you to imagine my pain. Because when I hear I can't imagine, I think, oh, so my life is just not like yours, and my life is so different that I feel bad now. And, and if you imagine my pain, you'll understand your pain better when it arises. Right. So, imagination is a bridge of justice, I think, but how do you navigate that then I think it's simply saying something like, I love you. If you don't know what to say I love you. But also saying something like, this sounds really hard. I wish I had the answers. How about just saying what really is happening which is that I don't know what to say. I, but I'm willing to sit in this with you, and I'm willing to figure out how to be your best support. If someone said that to me, I would feel supported.  

And so, and nothing they've offered is a fix. Nothing they've offered makes anything different. But now I know I have a connection. Now I know someone is sitting there, trying to feel how hard this must be for me. And that alone is huge, you know, so the question is really how comfortable are you sitting with your own pain, and the more you can do that the more you can sit with people in the unknown.  

So, now when people are in pain. You know, I say many things that are individualized to what might be happening for them but often it's around the theme of what is true, which is. There are so many ways to suffer. I'm so sorry that you're struggling. I'm here for you, and I'm willing to be here in any way and I'm willing to wait and figure out what that best way is, you know, whatever that because in the moment maybe they don't know. I'm not please still bring people food and give their children rides and I love all of that. But the other thing is, are you acknowledging their pain or are we trying to fix it and make it okay. You know like, oh well maybe it'll get better. At least, is another one I hear a lot, at least you have two healthy children, but that's very painful right because all three of my children are equally loved in my heart and equally valued. And even if they weren't, then I want to learn how to do that and now I'm getting a story that's reinforcing that shouldn't be the case right so it's tricky I agree with you but it's nuanced and pretty simple I'm not saying it's easy, but it's pretty simple if you really stick with what's the truth in the moment. And I love you. Those two things will take you very far.  

Anjuli: I love that yeah I think it'll take you very far in any relationship with yourself and others and think you kind of hit the nail on the head of like going back to that dorsal place or why bother. Right, what is needed from baby all the way up in adulthood is like you said someone who can come and sit with us and go I am not scared or even if I am scared I'm still here with you. And you are not alone I think that's what you are not alone. That's really crucial. And this kind of, you know, catching you to have like, yes, we do it for ourselves. And yes, in order to do it for ourselves it is important to have modeling I mean that goes back to therapy or your pastor or your parent or your friend that like we can't necessarily expect people to do it for themselves unless there's also places where they're seeing and receiving that.  

So, and then having permission to be like you're not also not going to get it perfect is going to take time and practicing over and over and oftentimes I'll say with grief to have, you know, it's like grief is often too big for one person to hold I don't think grief was ever a solitary practice just kind of going back in time. There's a reason why it's usually held collectively. And though there's places that nobody can do for you. There's something about another body next to your body, or another bodies around you, adjust make something unbearable more bearable. And so, I guess I would say and I'll segue now to joy is justice like when I think about what does that mean. And I want to hear from you that line that you're drawing between joy and justice.  

One thing that just occurred to me right now is like part of reclaiming justice is going, you're going to find ways to do this, I work together. We're not going to leave each other alone. We're not going to keep on this idea that like it needs to be a nuclear family, and they see that a lot also in the West right and great well you have your partner, and you have your children so it must be good. I mean, as opposed to know it's too small. So just checking on each other. Just that checking on each other going, not alone, not alone is revolutionary to me that is reclamation of justice. And I would love maybe if we just kind of draw that line a little bit more clearly now like how you're holding joy and the journey to like you know you said like joy is like a liberatory practice. What does it look like I think justice for most people looks like you know I, I did some act of activism and I changed something external, and I think there's room for that here too. But like, what are you meaning when you're saying, joy is my justice. Just will you- 

Dr. Sethi: Yeah. And, and I'm, and I agree also what you're saying about the collective and healing in that way I mean as Audre Lord one of my idols said, there's no healing without the collective and so I think going back to that is really returning to our ancestral and Indigenous roots and understanding that instead of this sort of individualism that we have in the West that's really taken that away. I think that, you know, I tell a story in my book about how the title came to be but it also is actually exactly when the first moment I understood more clearly this distinct link for me between liberation and joy, and it was during a body scan meditation that was a little different than a traditional body scan where you go to different areas of your body and ask it questions or explore it, and I was traveling my skin over and over and over and I never visited my skin I had always gone to organs or different places and as I was traveling my skin. I just felt this intense love for my skin and my, my body.  

And that's not how my life has been I've always, you know, had this sense of like that white girl’s prettier than me or this one I'm, I'm brown or I'm too much I have, I mean, you know, on and on just feeling sort of in the other. And so, I had felt proud to be a brown woman long before this, but there was a way that my skin just felt for the first time, this beautiful shell that it protected me and had spoken to me in such a loving way. And so that story is in the book, but I opened my eyes in pure joy, you know, pure joy.  

And when I opened my eyes, I literally said to myself, joy is my justice, because in that moment, I had reclaimed my body in a way that no external force or system could tell me my worthiness better than this. And it was a moment of understanding that this deep love for my body and myself was what I was missing in my liberation practice in my own justice work. And so, you know, it all, it all kept going from there but what I would say is that in that way that we are not talking about any trauma or oppression stripping us of our humanity. I feel like giving it back restoring it, and the joy the exact thing that was pushed down with any system or suffering, bringing that back as a bold act of, I deserve this, this is mine to have you cannot take it away, you cannot have this joy. You may take everything else, and many systems do, but you cannot take my right to access joy. That is not possible. And when I say it even like that, I feel it in my body as true power that even I don't feel if I'm standing up for myself in a meeting or in a, I mean I feel powerful them but it's not as deep as this power, where I stand up in my body and say this is mine, not yours. And so, in that way I think joy, which you speak to eloquently in your work to is, is not only is our resilience our strength but it's our, it's our power. And so, you know, people will say, I want to find joy because I want to feel better. And I think that's great. That's beautiful and I also offer, I would seek joy to find your power, and in that power. Notice what how you feel.  

Anjuli: And I started going back to the aliveness right I mean when you said that and that story, I love that story by the way gave me tingles. I mean when I read it. I mean I think part of it was also, and I'll segue now a little bit into the practices that you offer right is the is the magic I mean as a somatic therapist, you know, I mean, it has been 20 odd years, and it's still it is magical at times and I think that's like it brings me to all because is beyond in some ways although I know science is catching up and it's telling us why it's happening. But there is an aww like what is possible when you connect with your body and how it speaks to you and depending on your belief system you know like to me, in my belief system, it is like our soul it's something that is much larger than us, communicating with us and in that moment, having your skin, I mean, wake up right and wake up beyond all the isms of internalized racism basically, and like all of that stripping away and you just being a being with the life in her body, and her body is I mean she felt like it was like dancing you know with aliveness in that story going, I'm glorious. I'm here.  

Dr. Sethi: And you have touched on it, and Anjuli, I mean really just that joy is that sort of vastness of the human experience right and that gets taken away when we get pushed down into a narrow box of suffering that all we have is this, and more that all we don't have.  

Anjuli: And defines you.  

Dr. Sethi: Yes. And when you open yourself up to this vast human experience that you still have access to in your body. There is a power that you cannot simulate any other way, and understanding remember that that power that body that has protected you from the trauma you're not broken has tried to help you disconnect from that pain because it is too much. And so, this way of coming back into our body. I love somatic therapists, because what you all do is bring that together for people and understanding that it has to happen in a bidirectional way that we can't just think ourselves out of things and in fact, we can't think ourselves out of poverty oppression trauma or suffering, it's just not possible.  

Anjuli: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, gosh, okay, like looking at the time, so many things I want to ask you. [Dr. Sethi: Yes.] Maybe with that one right because you, you have this thing where you say what your mind and heart can't resolve your body will hold your body will hold and one of my favorite parts of the book where the stories that you had of the small group work it seemed like you know where people are coming in and it seemed like and I would love for you to tell people about this like they're like dialoguing for their body. So if someone has a back pain or hand pain I've seen this happen so many times my own groups right and like, then, we begin to contact our body and we ask it to speak, and all of a sudden, the thing that we thought that was structural, I mean maybe you should go to, you know, I don't know when I keep on tracer back person turns out to be a story that the body is telling you like, actually I've got some stuff on my back, I've got these people on my back and I'm like, I'm going to go to the back of my body. I've got these people on my back and if I can get the anger I have out about them. Whoa, there's actually release in my body and so that practice felt really magical and I just wondered like so much of the book, besides stories really practical things that people can do to begin to resolve the thing that body' holding and maybe we could talk a little bit about a couple of them that you would just like feel like they're like really vital you want people to know about they're just so useful in this process.  

Dr. Sethi: So, there are so many. 

Anjuli: I will work on my questions next time, okay narrow the scope! [laughs]  

Dr. Sethi: No, no! Thank you, so many and so one, one I would say is that we, I'm thinking most relevant to what we've been speaking of and one is the ancestral circle exercise which really, you know, in that space if you're feeling alone disconnected like you don't have anyone who understands what you're going through one of the cardinal parts of grief for me and most patients I work with is feeling like nobody gets it feeling alone, and, and nobody does get it in that moment, right, I and I want to be clear about that. But other humans get that moment at other moments as well. Right. We all experience similar feelings around our pain.  

And so, this exercise is an exercise where you actually sit and get centered with your breath and actually think about ancestors, either in your family lineage or the global lineages, who might have suffered in the way you're suffering right now. Yeah, I just give an example that if I'm having a particularly dark day about grief or loss for my son, and I'm feeling alone, and I'm feeling this happens a lot and I have a lot of community, because when we're grieving it's hard to understand who could understand that. Yeah, I will often I do this practice often and I and it helps me so much. I will often think of mothers in the world, ancestral mothers who have suffered because of their children suffering. And I will think about them, I will bring them into my mind's eye, I will do some breath work, and then imagine them sitting around me in a circle, sending me love, compassion, understanding, acceptance, and I will breathe all of that in and breathe in gratitude for their work that they persevered, that they understand my struggle, that they cared for their children, and they understood the need to care for themselves. Sometimes you can say well did they really or, you know, but I know their ancestors who did this, and I know that they're, they're the ancestors of my parents who have done this right. They struggled and went across the border during partition. I can't imagine what their mothers were feeling right there's that I can't imagine so I try to imagine, I bring them in that circle. And I think you suffered, you cared, you worried, you feared, you grieved, you lost. And yet, you moved on, you move forward with all of that. I'm so grateful for that. And I will tell you, it might sound pretty big, but in those moments I opened my eyes, I feel less alone. Every time I feel like somebody understood my pain, and somebody somewhere now is holding my pain in the same way. It opens me up again that vastness of the human experience. It opens my narrow lens more so that I can understand it brings me into a place of gratitude for my ancestors it brings it brings so many pieces of this work in the book together, but I, but I offer to people who are listening to understand that that's accessible to any of us in any moment. Any moment. Nobody can take that away from me.  

Anjuli: Yeah. Like you're really leaning into that collective body again right here again go, I got a pool, and what I love about what you said is like, I think people can hear and go oh well, but she has a husband, she has these loving parents, and it must be them. And like you said in that moment, you're on the go you're in the car wherever even if you're around them. There is something that you can tap into that you need that it's even faster maybe right and like that has a very minute just like correspondence to what you're feeling and also, feels like you're also tapping into collective resilience, [Dr. Sebut you're going like not just like the trauma, but these ancestors or the people's right now for each experiencing similar things. And you're also survivors and thrivers and they did it and they have so much to pass forward. I'm including your parents like when you said, they survive partition and yet here you are, and part of your joy is because they did pass on. And I think that's such a strength and love that you can be here so maybe we'll close out there. Like just- what’s an idea of collective resilience?  

Dr. Sethi: You want me to speak to collective resilience? 

Anjuli: Would you for just moment? Because do I think we do talk so much especially as brown people right about like collective sorrow and collective suffering and the other side of the coin is we are all still here. And there's a reason we're here on the backs of so many, and though it's imperfect, but resilience isn't perfect it's like how did we nurture and protect and love and keep moving inside of great stress right and keep letting life move towards life as we go forward. So, yeah, just feels like an important thing.  

Dr. Sethi: yeah, you know, I think that the science is really clear it's emerging still and also already clear and Rachel Yehuda’s work is really been inspiring in this way around Holocaust survivors and around families and how our DNA actually changes with trauma right and makes us more possibly more hyper vigilant. I also think though that trauma makes us more resilient. I don't think we can deny that that sort of marker being there.  

And also, that if we tap into this collective body. If we tap into this collective healing, what I often think when I access my joy, even as I cry about something. What I access my ancestors sometimes I think, if my ancestors could see me now. You know, if they could see me now, I get teary thinking about it. If they could see me now saying this hurts so badly. This is so hard. And yet, I choose my joy to be along with all the pain. I choose both. And in that way, I feel that we are even healing our lineages right for those who persevered but suffered so much that we bring joy back into our DNA, you know, I get teary when I think about that. And so, this idea of collective resilience is vital it's critical for us to understand that the connection we have to each other, even in the present not just ancestrally in our present the more we connect to our own joy, the more we can connect to each other from a place of that joy, and then our anger and our fear become more even more powerful, because we have a seat of clarity with which to work with that. And that this joy is so vital in the justice journey and the fight that we collectively are in to say, you know, how is it that we can move forward. We must not just say how must we fight, but how do we fight with joy, I think that's a that's a powerful nuance that we must add to really amplify the journey.  

Anjuli: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Tanmeet. I love this conversation.  

Dr. Sethi: Oh, thank you for this conversation. Yes.  

Anjuli: This is really, really rich. And thank you, thank you to you, your family, all of your ancestors, just for all that supported you in creating this gift.  

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Thank you for listening to the CIIS Public Programs Podcast. Our talks and conversations are presented live in San Francisco, California. We recognize that our university’s building in San Francisco occupies traditional, unceded Ramaytush Ohlone lands. If you are interested in learning more about native lands, languages, and territories, the website native-land.ca is a helpful resource for you to learn about and acknowledge the Indigenous land where you live. 
 
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